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[–] 18 points 2 days ago (8 children)

That's debatable. And if you want a serious rant, ask me what I think of the current classification of some OTC meds. Because there's plenty that shouldn't be OTC.

But I didn't say estradiol, or testosterone, or spironolactone, or any other hormone or hrt related meds were dangerous, I said they came with risks that are too high for them to be reclassified as OTC. Said it differently, but since that part didn't translate I figured I should rephrase.

I'm not sure what level of terminology you're familiar with, so if something isn't what you've run into before, holla at me and I'll rephrase things.

The point is that every substance we take into our bodies has some effect on it, no matter how minor. Medications, which are just substances that have a non-minor effect that is being applied to some form of illness, disease, disorder, or just to adjust normal function to a more desirable state, have higher risks than substances like water or cheese.

Medications all (or so near all as to be irrelevant) have interactions, and contraindications.

One of the ways medications are classified is by the degree of risk. Those classifications are far from perfect (again, I have strong opinions about many, many drugs needing to be reclassified), but an OTC drug needs to meet a standard that is a much lower threshold for risk than prescription only drugs.

The threshold of risk for something like estradiol is absolutely higher than that of paracetamol, aspirin, sodium bicarbonate, even something like topical lidocaine. None of those are risk free. They don't meet the threshold of dangerous (nor does estradiol), but the level of risk is low enough that OTC status is reasonably acceptable overall.

Estradiol, since that's the example you chose, comes with a non trivial contraindication for people with liver disease, clotting issues, history of stroke or dvt, and some forms of cancer. There's a list of medications hundreds long that it can negatively interact with, not all of which are obvious

And that's just one specific medication from that class of meds. I can't even rattle off all the known detrimental interactions for that one drug, and I'm a medical nerd/geek with decades of experience and training.

I can do that the acetaminophen, for fexofenadine, famotidine and dozens of other OTC meds because the lists are so much shorter.

And that's why reclassification of those meds is a horrible idea. There's other ways for trans people to have open access. And, being real, those options are better than campaigning for reclassification of HRT meds because they'll apply to other aspects of transition and healthcare.

Every single trans person on this planet deserves to have their right to access recognized, codified, and enforced.

That is not the same thing as reclassification of a medication. It just isn't. There's absolutely no upside to reclassifying estradiol instead of just making sure than the people that need it can not only expect to have that need addressed, but to also ensure that they have access to the full suite of healthcare that should be just as fundamental a civil right.

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  • [–] 9 points 2 days ago* (3 children)

    So, I understand the points you're making about medication regulation. Certainly, ibuprofen carries enough risk with abuse for the ease of access to be questioned, for example, but I'm unsure of the claim here that there are other ways for open access to HRT.

    It seems that the conclusion here is that liberal civil rights campaigns are more effective with less risk, but I'm unsure if that's the point, since, y'know, that would require trans people to even further risk their safety by cooperating with institutions that are largely dedicated to the genocide of trans people. I'm sure that would carry a less general medical risk since, of course, it is not only trans people making use of these medications, but I don't see how this could be argued as more dangerous for trans people specifically.

    I think it's also crucial to note here that even the non-violent actions that are necessary to fight for that protection carries the risk of incarceration, and therefore, significantly high chances of sexual violence given the disproportionate rate that trans people experience sexual violence in those cases. Even more, in the US, there are many cases where we'd be asking trans people to risk forceful "detransition" to participate in said campaign, as that is an accepted policy within the US carceral institution.

    I do hope I'm misreading the last part of your comment for that reason, as I think that kind of point would ask us to ignore the trans people who died to secure what access we do have (very many of which suffered the consequences I listed above), as well as the reality that these institutions only conceded rights to that access as part of a longer campaign against transness, the consequences of which we are witnessing through the current wave of genocidal policies targetting trans people. With all that in mind, I find it difficult to weigh the valid concerns over medical safety against the specific needs for some of the most vulnerable people in our society. Surely, there is an acceptable risk I'm willing to generalize should that mean fewer trans youth die because they refuse to live without access to themselves.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 days ago (2 children)

    Oh, I'm fully on board with DIY as a life saving measure. It infuriates me that anyone, much less a kid, has to go that route, but it is an ugly world full of hate and even just plain bias, so DIY is the only realistic option for way too many people.

    I'm just saying that trying to make a class of meds OTC isn't the long term answer to that problem.

    I'm so sick of seeing good people treated like garbage for the crime of not fitting preconceptions. It's one of the things that shifted my views on the desirability of violent revolution away from a purely pacifist stance. Too many people get crushed waiting for a peaceful change. But that's not really on topic, sorry for the mini rant.

    Coming back to it, I think that trying to reclassify HRT meds as OTC would, at best, kick the can down the road on trans rights to access. At worst, it turns into another fight of its own that just isn't useful on a strategic level, and since it doesn't achieve the goal any better than other paths to open access, the risks it brings aren't worth it.

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  • [–] 6 points 2 days ago* (1 child)

    Oh yes, I didn't think you were against DIY HRT generally based on your comment.

    I do think systemic violence is very much on topic, especially following my comment. We have to be real, every trans issue is a topic related to a group of people who are regularly targetted for genocide. This is why I'm a bit confused about this final point again, about wider access being definitively less effective and more harmful than alternatives, since we don't really have alternatives.

    Every act of cooperation with a liberal-capitalist system is "kicking the can down the road," since that system fundamentally desires the eradication of queerness. As far as violence goes, I'm not sure how you could argue that, again, an increased generalized risk to the benefit of trans people is in any way more risky than simply continuing the current path, which is civil recognition, when that literally resulted in the current moment of trans genocide and is concurrent with the consistently high rate of self-harm and suicide among trans people. As far as I see it here, your point is that a potential threat to the general population is more of a concern than the very real and immediate threat faced by trans people today.

    As you've stated in other comments, there already is HRT misinformation, and the systemic oppression that we experience has necessitated community responses and education campaigns. So, I don't really see how this would be a problem for trans people specifically, whom already have an information network via the preexistng ones within the trans community. I also don't see how this would be any more or less difficult to implement in the current cultural moment within the US (and anglosphere) and/or EU contexts, since, again, we are already dealing with the negative consequences of cooperation in the first place. I'm not sure what strategic value there is in foregoing campaigns that can codify trans access to HRT without explicit trans rights in mind, and therefore protection against the repeal of policy on the basis of anti-transness alone.

    So, could you please explain what alternatives you're referring to?

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  • [–] 1 point 2 days ago

    Hey, I'm not ignoring you. I'm having trouble reading this currently. Tired, dyslexia, and the app I use isn't great once you get enough comments chained.

    I plan to come back to it tomorrow on a different device because it definitely looks like a great comment from what I can parse. But I'm also horrible with time and some types of memory, so I didn't want you to think I was dismissing you when I'm just flaky in some aspects.

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  • [–] 8 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (2 children)

    I agree with the sentiment, and given the big picture of what you advocate for,

    Every single trans person on this planet deserves to have their right to access recognized, codified, and enforced.

    , within the limits of the current working system of health, you have my general agreement.

    The reason, I think, that this post grates you a bit, is because behind it, there is a secondary ideological belief. That is, a different view around enforcement, the anarchic one.

    The idea (that I as a trans person strongly support), is that the Government, the entity which decides legal limitations around medications, shouldn't even be allowed to have the ability to manage HRT, because if it has the ability, it will unavoidably use it at some point down the line.

    Unless you're willing to say that drugs like nicotine shouldn't be over the counter due to the real health risk they pose, then it isn't the government legislators' job, to decide via restriction, who gets access to HRT medication.

    The idea around prescription drugs, is that you're supposed to have easy access to them whenever you need them via doctor's orders, and they are restricted for one of these three reasons:

    Either 1. They are useless outside their use AND rapidly irreversibly dangerous, 2. They can be made into threats for the state (see, bomb materials), or 3. Their risk is so great, that there's value protecting people from seeking them (see, opioids and other addictive substances).

    HRT isn't addictive, and is slow acting, while being life saving for people who often are failed by the current social system. The only reason to limit HRT, (in a world where Alcohol is in super markets for 2 euro per liter lol), is reason number 2., every 50 years that fascists come out from their holes.

    This is one of those many, many cases, where, your beautiful and correct dream of safety for our world that I agree with, should maybe (/s) Not start from restrictions to minorities.

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  • [–] 8 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 child)

    Yeah agreed and I mean the risks of current hrt are really minor, I know the most about estrogen so I'll tall about that, but even blood clots on doses that are too high is debated since a lot of the studies on that were with non-bioidentical types of estradiol iirc. The cancer risk they brought up also literally just changes the chances of you developing certain types of cancer to basically what the risks for a cis person who naturally has those hormones is. Same with any kind of clotting disorders, it just makes it closer to the risks of a cis women. No cis women with clotting disorders or a history of cancer are being prescribed estrogen blockers preemptively to reduce their risks of those.

    But also like, should the government restrict purchases of every single thing that could harm someone? I truly believe somerthing like a knife, or certain power tools are honestly more likely to cause injury than hrt, same with alcohol as well obviously. IDK why medicine specifically requires protecting people from more than any of those.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

    In 80% of cases, it's because of authoritarianism. In 20%, it's because expecting someone to have a good sense of space to not poke an eye out with a drill, is much more reasonable than expecting the Charlatans to pick safe snake oils to sell.

    No one ever buys random drugs they know nothing about, but things you know nothing about, are perfect Charlatan fields.

    Sad example:Here in Greece, people literally tell each other medications to try, no doctor appointment required, as panaceas. It's not even for money, it's the same impulse that makes people share "super foods", and "mindfulness exercises". It's alienated, suffering people, with no real solution to their problems, making tiny religions around symbols. Just in this case, these symbols do liver damage.

    So let's make it harder to trick people into injecting horse de-wormer or whatever. You have to at least be in the government to do that.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 days ago

    Driving a car comes with much more risk than many medications that are prescription-only. If we provide everyone healthcare and free doctors visits then fine, we can be more restrictive with prescriptions. Until then many people can't afford to go to the doctor to be prescribed something.

    Yes, there are risks, but we take risks every day. People should be allowed to decide for themselves what risks they are willing to take, not the government. The government putting things behind large paywalls is them restricting what you can do with your own body.

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