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[–] 101 points 1 week ago (79 children)

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”

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  • [–] 25 points 1 week ago* (17 children)

    i think the common argument for this (not that i agree with it) is that God just see evil differently? i.e. you mere mortals think something is evil doesn't mean god does too.

    (and this argument then becomes circular and unfalsifiable, that's why i think it's dumb).

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  • [–] 27 points 1 week ago (10 children)

    Not currently religious, but my understanding at the time was not that he didn't think things could be evil, though obviously we might see things like death as "evil" and he might not. It's that in order for us to "deserve" good things, we need to prove we are worthy. The only way to prove that is to allow us to do the wrong thing so that we can of our own free will choose the right thing instead. The question would then be why would you create beings with free will knowing some of them will inevitably suffer forever and the answer is generally "I'm god, who the heck are you to question me?" or some stupid explanation about how free will existing is itself a good that god did and therefore even if we choose evil every time we make a choice we are still engaging in a universal "good". Religions do obviously differ though, so everyone likely learned things a little differently.

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  • [–] 3 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago)

    The problem is when you think about free evils (evils that suppose no possible learning opportunity or some bullshit like that).

    Also, other problem is that, why would he create an infinite pain place for when we make decisions he doesn't like?

    There's this explanation that the point is we're the ones creating that eternal punishment with our actions, that's what logically follows from rejecting its "love"; but, not to mention that then it's completely toxic, completely egomaniacal, narcissistic, pathologically jealous, and psychopathic love, the biggest problem is, who's supposed to have created logic and set up which causes produce which effects and what logically follows from what, according to religion? Right. "god".

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  • [–] 9 points 1 week ago (7 children)

    thanks for elaborating! i've never been religious so i only have a surface understanding of these stuffs. and honestly i kinda dislike it when fellow atheists throw out the "bUt wHAt abOUt eVil?" as the gotcha to try to prove that religions cannot be logical. but generally speaking religions can be logical and quite self-consistent in fact, and the question ultimately will be "what do you believe" which can't be empirically tested anyway.

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  • [–] 11 points 1 week ago (6 children)

    What about aggressive cancer in young children?

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  • [–] 3 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (1 child)

    It’s not about being “good,” it’s about power, punishment, and hierarchy. You don’t have to be “good” to get into heaven, just fully devoted to and in alignment with the ambitions of their puny gods. They don’t believe you are rewarded for who you are, but who you serve and how obediently. There’s a reason why christians call their deity “The Lord.”

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  • [–] 18 points 6 days ago (2 children)

    Whoever originally wrote this, I want to be their friend! Thank you for sharing. It's beautiful.

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  • [–] 17 points 6 days ago* (8 children)

    Omnipotence does not mean the ability to do anything whatsoever, but the ability to do everything that is possible.

    Omni - all, potent - powerful/able. All powerful. Having unlimited or universal power. You can of course interpret as you want, but words are words and they have meaning.

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  • [–] 6 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (6 children)

    With all due respect, philosophy isn't a fucking science unlike linguistics.

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  • [–] 5 points 6 days ago (4 children)

    what's that philological argument? "Trust me bro"? The cambridge dictionary's definition of the word omnipotent is literally

    having unlimited power and able to do anything

    It both is the most common definition of the word, and the most logical one, based off its components literal meaning, whereas yours is dubious, misleading and requires you to define the "maximum power". In other words its inferior according to the Occam's Razor.

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  • [–] 4 points 6 days ago (2 children)

    that "someone" was me. If your reading comprehension is so lacking, that you can't even read a username, your words have as much credibility as a baby babble.

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  • [–] 5 points 6 days ago

    yes, being able to differentiate beings you're interacting with is a sign of intelligence (which is present amongst most animals, so the bar is very low), as it shows the depth at which you perceive the world around you. Sorry that it insults you. If you can't be bothered to do so little, i doubt you'd manage to produce anything thought-provoking.

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  • [–] 12 points 6 days ago (6 children)

    I can do everything that's possible for me. Am I omnipotent?

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  • [–] 8 points 6 days ago (4 children)

    I get that part, since more is possible than I can do, but God is the one who decides and creates what is possible, so he should be able to do anything whatsoever.

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  • [–] 7 points 6 days ago (4 children)

    In the Christian biblical sense and beliefs of creation ... God created everything out of nothing ... which implies that they are capable of creating and controlling everything ... the story of Noah is God deciding he didn't like his creation so they hit the reset button and wiped everyone out

    So now we live in a world where so many terrible things are happening ... sure there are many good things and good people but there are also an overwhelming number of bad people and bad things making this world very, very uncomfortable ... so where is God? Things are worse (or just as bad) now than they were before the biblical flood ... so why hasn't God stepped in to either make things better - or hit the reset button again.

    Which then begs the question of the paradox and asks where is God, what are they doing, and why aren't they doing anything?... and leads to the ultimate question about God ... do they actually exist?

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  • [–] 5 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (2 children)

    But he knew that, in creating it, he was also creating the possibility of suffering

    If a being is capable of creating anything and everything from the own will, how could they allow suffering to become reality? If creation from nothing is spontaneous and under their full control, why would they allow suffering to enter the equation?

    It either means that creation is something that is not under their full control therefore does allow them to be completely omnipotent ... or they chose to create a reality with suffering on purpose which provides for some questionable ethics and morality (why create something that will suffer?)

    He didn’t wish for suffering, but it was a necessary consequence

    if an all powerful being is capable of creating life and reality out of nothing ... then you'd think they would have full control over the process. If there was nothing to start with, then how could side effects like suffering enter the process?

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  • [–] 4 points 6 days ago

    Who are we to say what God can or can't do .. or is capable of or incapable of ... maybe they are able to do anything and everything they want and just sometimes does and sometimes doesn't ... or maybe they are just as influenced by the random universe as much as we are

    Which means that we can't know what a being that was at the start of universe is able to do ... or even cares.

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  • [–] 6 points 6 days ago (6 children)

    if "omnipotent" doesn't mean "can do literally anything", then "real" doesn't necessarily mean "exists in our reality" either.

    You can squirm and manipulate the terms however you'd like, just know that nobody in the right mind would take your words seriously if you do that. If a manual needs to be interpreted, it's a bad manual. Any religion is just a fiction, pretending to be non-fiction. Same kinda thing as horrors with "based on real events" tagline, just turned up a few notches.

    If a fiction needs interpretation and head-canons to be coherent, it's a bad fiction. The Bible is just bad from a literary standpoint, fiction or non-fiction. Its authors failed miserably at portraying a being that is so potent, it created literally everything.

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  • [–] 5 points 6 days ago (4 children)

    You see, I'm not refusing the definition you're giving. I say that using it, rather than the definition of the term people usually assume hearing it is misleading at best. In other words, what you're doing can be considered a demagogy.

    Whether the term appears in the bible is immaterial to this discussion, because what the bible does, is it attempts at describing an omnipotent being, as said being creates the world, and then does some stuff that breaks the laws of physics and logic.

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  • [–] 4 points 6 days ago (2 children)

    Words are polysemous.

    Cool, and? It's the first time i'm hearing someone use the term "omnipotent" not in its most literal sense. I bet i'm not the only one.

    it's normal to use “significant” with a different sense than when you're speaking about something else.

    Because "significant" is an abstract term, not a concrete one. "Omnipotent" is a concrete term though, and a pretty straightforward one at that. The only time you'd unironically use it not in its most literal sense would be to mislead people.

    Yes, lots of words have multiple meanings. "Omnipotent" is hardly one of them, and even then, as you've already noted yourself, the bible doesn't use it directly. People derive this characteristic of Christian God from his actions, and when they talk about god's omnipotence, they use the word in its literal sense. People here also were using the literal meaning of the word.

    Idk about you, but where I'm from, there's a saying: "terms aren't argued over, they're agreed upon". People here colloquially used the term "omnipotent" as a substitute for "all powerful", until you chimed in with your "uhm acshually ☝️🤓" remark, offering an arbitrary and dubious definition, basically solving a non-existent problem.

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  • [–] 4 points 5 days ago (4 children)

    I would consider your comment wordplay. Mainly because your arguing semantics while semantics were never the point of the argument.

    If a god said to be all powerful but allows for evil to exist it's either not all powerful or evil itself, or both. In any case, why would I want or need such a god?

    I know I'm exaggerating myself, but it doesn't affect the argument.

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  • [–] 4 points 6 days ago (8 children)

    Then what the fuck is the deal with parting the seas, bombing Sodom and Gomorrah, and annihilating humanity ten times over before we came along?

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  • [–] 5 points 6 days ago (6 children)

    Every religious everything is a myth, that doesn’t address my question in any way shape or form.

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  • [–] 4 points 6 days ago* (4 children)

    The christian god, in the myth, literally and tangibly did things and contorted reality to his will and plans to ensure his/his followers success. He blew people up, attacked children with an army of bears, flooded the earth, and a bunch of other stuff.

    Also, according to your shit, in the beginning your god literally created everything. Not most things. Not some things. They claim that your god created all that has been and all that ever will be. How does that translate to “can do what it is possible to be done, but is not all powerful” without some high level mental gymnastics?

    Edit: A dude (not jesus) died and was brought back to life, for fuck’s sake.

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  • [–] 4 points 6 days ago (2 children)

    Religion is believing in myths as literal happenings, otherwise your just bumblefucking around and making it up as you go, which granted is no dumber than any structured theology.

    End of the day, this is specifically your take on how it all works and not the ascribed organized christian interpretation of the bible, but it’s all just lying to yourself, anyway, so I really don’t have any more fucks for this idiot assery. It’s all voodoo nonsense as far as this cat’s concerned.

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  • What do you believe is his reason for creating people? He placed the tree of knowledge to give us choice, but in doing so opened the pathway to suffering. Why create beings with free will in the first place and give them the opportunity to hurt themselves or others.

    If I bred and trained some puppies to not step on red floor tiles and then put them in a room where stepping on a red floor tile caused them to be set on fire or something, people would (in my opinion rightfully) suggest I was being unnecessarily cruel. I could make plenty of arguments as to why I'm in the right "I'm the reason they're here so I get to decide the conditions of their existence" or "I trained them first so I'm just seeing if they'll follow directions", but I don't think anyone would think I'm in the right. It feels somewhat like that's what god did. He made us fallible and gave us plenty of ways and reasons to fail. What is your interpretation of why?

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  • [–] 4 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago)

    I think your read on omnipotence is tautological. As a Christian, you are familiar with your god's resume: virgin birth, transubstantiation, worldwide simultaneous flood, resurrections, spontaneous healing of leprosy, temporary parting of the sea, hardening hearts, etc. What is canonically outside of his power?

    Also your sentence about god being love and not being able to create... unless... Is not very clear to me. How can infinite love divide itself into unlove?

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  • [–] 4 points 5 days ago (1 child)

    Ah the Christian apologists final form: "God and the Bible mean whatever I want them to mean whenever it's convenient".

    God killed everyone on the planet but that's obviously bad so that story is a myth but all the ones that I want to be true are true.

    God says he's omnipotent but that makes his existence impossible so I'll just change the definition of the word omnipotent. Thereby admitting that god isn't even powerful enough to speak clearly in his sacred texts.

    Going even further down the rabbit hole and they'll start talking about how they learned ancient Greek and Hebrew just so they can manipulate the text further. God is all powerful but just really bad at translating words in a book.

    You're grasping at straws. God does not exist and if it does it is evil.

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  • [–] 6 points 6 days ago (5 children)

    It depends on who has power over who ... you don't have power or control over your coworker ... they could slap you in face for taking away their cigarettes ... and if they are strong and violent enough, they could punch you in face and knock you out

    God may or may not have power over us and if they did, they'd snap their fingers and put us out of existence ... which is why the paradox makes you think ... if God is all powerful, why don't they do things to make things better ... because if they don't, then they don't care ... and if they can't, why call them God?

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  • [–] 6 points 6 days ago (4 children)

    Or God is just an extreme emotion masochist

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  • [–] 7 points 6 days ago (3 children)

    I also like the thought that God might also be a child who just accidentally created everything, didn't know and just forgot about everything.

    Our reality might be just a forgotten game save by a kid who has played and is continuing to play endless game files

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  • [–] 4 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (2 children)

    God opens the door of the universe:

    "Oh my-fucking-self! How long did i forgot this yogurt...it has gained sentience."

    Throws the whole shelf in the garbage.

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  • [–] 3 points 6 days ago (1 child)

    God opens the door of A RANDOM universe he lad lying around

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  • One day we will start seeing the actions of god again and it’s going to be so bad.

    “Fuck, what was I doing? I don’t even remember what character I was playing. I hate this real time clock bullshit, I have no idea what any of this is. Me damn, I didn’t spec any of this right, I had no idea what I was doing, I’m definitely getting the bad ending. OH MY ME, what, the game killed my player character? What the hell? Fine, let’s talk to thi-FUCK! Oh yeah, I need to use the Metatron skill. Sorry, bro, my bad. Hmm… I still have my inventory, though… arma-what? What does this item even do?” Our sun goes supernova “Shit! Shit! Shit! Shit! Shit! No! No! No! No! No! FUCK! Do I have a… No! Fuck! Auto-save?! Are you fucking kidding me?! Why do I play rogue-likes… I remember why I stopped playing this game, now. Me damn it… Alright, new run it is… gotta get them chevos, baby!”

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