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[–] 130 points 2 months ago (49 children)

100% fruit juices would remain exempt

Why?? Shit’s sugar. You’re not getting most of the nutritional benefit from juice, all the fiber has been removed.

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  • [–] 58 points 2 months ago (22 children)

    My guess is because it's unsweetened, and that the tax applies to drinks with added sugar or sweetener.

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  • [–] 59 points 2 months ago (19 children)

    ‘We should reduce sugar and sweetener consumption, let’s not tax this drink that’s almost pure sugar because it’s natural’ is asinine. Apple juice has virtually identical sugar content to a soda.

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  • [–] 11 points 2 months ago (4 children)

    They’re not the same types of sugar. Your body uses glucose differently than fructose.

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  • [–] 11 points 2 months ago

    Maybe to some extent? I don't think the superiority of one monosaccharide over the other has been clearly established. There are differences, but the health impact of them are not clear. Also, "glucose vs fructose" is

    1. not super-relevant to the matter of comparing juice with soda. At least here in the Nordics, most sodas seem to be sweetened with sugar, a.k.a. sucrose (a.k.a. fructose+glucose, see below), and maybe a splash of juice. (Based on a survey of my favorites, though I mostly drink the Zero-versions)

    2. a bit of a false choice (see below).


    Fructose often co-occurs with glucose

    (Source: Wikipedia article on Fructose)

    • Fructose co-exists with glucose, in sucrose ...

    Fructose, or fruit sugar, is a common monosaccharide, i.e. a simple sugar. It is classified as a reducing hexose, more specifically a ketonic simple sugar found in many plants, where it is often bonded to glucose to form the disaccharide sucrose.

    • ... and in fruit.

    Table: "Sugar content of selected common plant foods". Note that many of the fruits' sugar content is dominated by a combination of sucrose and free fructose. Only plum breaks this trend, containing mostly glucose instead (still 47% sucrose and fructose).

    • Also: Fructose mostly ends up as glucose

    The liver converts most fructose and galactose into glucose for distribution in the bloodstream or deposition into glycogen.

    "Potential health effects"

    • A lot of the discussion in this part of the article is just about overconsumption of dietary sugars (including glucose and sucrose) in general, which would indicate to me that the differences between them aren't all that significant. However:

    The European Food Safety Authority (EFSA) stated in 2011 that fructose may be preferable over sucrose and glucose in sugar-sweetened foods and beverages because of its lower effect on postprandial blood sugar levels,[58] while also noting the potential downside that "high intakes of fructose may lead to metabolic complications such as dyslipidaemia, insulin resistance, and increased visceral adiposity".[58][59] The UK's Scientific Advisory Committee on Nutrition in 2015 disputed the claims of fructose causing metabolic disorders, stating that "there is insufficient evidence to demonstrate that fructose intake, at levels consumed in the normal UK diet, leads to adverse health outcomes independent of any effects related to its presence as a component of total and free sugars."[60]

    • "Compared to sucrose"

    Fructose was found to increase triglycerides in type-2 but not type-1 diabetes, and moderate use of it has previously been considered acceptable as a sweetener for diabetics,[61] possibly because it does not trigger the production of insulin by pancreatic β cells.[62] For a 50 gram reference amount, fructose has a glycemic index of 23, compared with 100 for glucose and 60 for sucrose.[63] Fructose is also 73% sweeter than sucrose at room temperature, allowing diabetics to use less of it per serving.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (1 child)

    The sugar in soda contains fructose (it is in fact 50% fructose). Soda with HFCS isn’t actually that much higher in fructose than plain sugar soda, ironically; the ‘high’ just means ‘higher than white sugar’.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago

    The “high” means greater than 55% fructose. HFCS has to be at minimum HFCS-55 according to the FDA. Many sodas mix HFCS-55 with HFCS-90 to increase the concentration. And I never said that soda doesn’t have fructose? Don’t know where you got that.

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  • [+] -8 points 2 months ago (12 children)

    Why not tax the actual apples then?

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  • [–] 30 points 2 months ago (11 children)

    Because apples aren’t apple juice, metabolically or nutritionally. The fiber slows down how fast you absorb the sugar and it’s good for your gut.

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  • [–] 5 points 2 months ago (3 children)

    Don't get me wrong, they probs should tax it but wouldn't that just push people to make their own juice instead and probs not change much?

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  • [–] 10 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    I doubt it, making juice is annoying and you have a lot of apple mush to deal with.

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  • [–] -3 points 2 months ago (5 children)

    Yes that's why I wouldn't tax them extra, however you seem to be advocating for a tax on anything with sugar. So why the change? You say yourself they've still sugar in it so why not tax them according to your logic?

    To put another way, if the presence of sugar isn't enough to justify the tax on its own, as long as the form is somrwhat different, then why not accept the difference between added sugar and no added sugar? That's just as meaningful a difference.

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  • [–] 7 points 2 months ago (4 children)

    I have no idea what you’re trying to advocate for here, but a dietitian isn’t going to tell you that apple juice and an apple are the same, because they’re not; a single serving of apple juice isn’t even made from a single apple. Fruit is healthy to eat, juice is not a health drink. If you’re taxing for health it makes sense to tax the unhealthy things and not the healthy ones.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (3 children)

    I'm not really advocating for anything other than pointing out that your argument is inconsistent. Is it about the sugar or not? If not then you've already accepted that there are different definitions and clearly juice is a different definition than a soft drink. Your arbitrarily deciding what's okay and not okay from what I can see of your argument. Adding healthy is even worse. That's an extremely subjective argument.

    What about grapes? They're extremely high in sugar and relatively low in fiber. Is that okay? Do you see what I'm saying? There's no consistency to go on here.

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  • [–] 0 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    I'm not really advocating for anything other than pointing out that your argument is inconsistent. Is it about the sugar or not?

    I literally just explained to you why the sugar in an apple is not identical to the sugar in a serving of apple juice, if you don't want to acknowledge it I can't make you.

    What about grapes? They're extremely high in sugar and relatively low in fiber.

    Find me a dietitian that says grapes are bad for you 🤷‍♂️ Rules lawyering how biology works doesn't actually work, the soda is still worse for you than fruit even if you go "ah ah ah, but you both have sugar!!"

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (1 child)

    I really don't understand what you're not getting about this. No one's confused about sugar in apples versus juice. No one is confused about serving sizes. Move past that.

    The question was are there exact standards. Is it based upon sugar content? Is it just all liquids? What's your criteria? You said what's healthy but that is so incredibly subjective I don't know why you'd even bother writing it. You could find a dietitian to say you shouldn't eat basically everything. Absolutely grapes. I'm not saying that. It seems like you're not saying that. Which is why I'm confused because earlier your criteria, high sugar low fiber, would seem to exclude them.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago

    You said what's healthy but that is so incredibly subjective I don't know why you'd even bother writing it

    Maybe I’m fucking crazy but I’d say dietitians know enough to determine whether or not juice has a nutritional value similar to soda or not, ie, how healthy it is. Are you seriously so checked out that you think it’s not possible to tell if food is good to eat or not?

    You could find a dietitian to say you shouldn't eat basically everything.

    Are you sure you aren’t confusing dietitians and nutritionists?

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  • [–] 12 points 2 months ago (4 children)

    Because like all laws, corruption came into the process to make it miss the goal entirely.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (3 children)

    Taxing almost all sugary drinks including artificial sweetners but not 100% juice is not "missing the goal entirely". That's still hitting the unhealthiest and most marketed beverages.

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  • [–] 12 points 2 months ago

    I'd agree if this targeted products with added sugar and left the artificial sweetners out of it. Fruit juice is also sold in high volumes, especially to families and people beyond their prime age. They might be less marketed, but I would argue they're not less unhealthy than soda with artificial sweetners. They might not miss the figurative goal entirely, but they sure are missing their literal goal if they are doing this to limit peoples consumption of unhealthy drinks.

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  • [–] 19 points 2 months ago

    There is no evidence that sugar substitutes are unhealthy and in fact have proven over and over again to increase weight loss compared to full sugar or telling people to "just drink more water".

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  • [–] 6 points 2 months ago

    A company (Compal) in my country (Portugal) that has been making whole fruit juice since the 70's. If they made it any thicker, you could eat it with a fork.

    Spain and France also have off-brand manufacturers of this type of fruit drink. Germany could learn something

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (6 children)

    Not all sugar is the same. I've read that natural fruit sugar is still way healthier than industrially refined sugar. Also fruit juice usually contains vitamins, electrolytes and fiber. So from a health perspective it makes sense to me to exempt 100℅ fruit juices. The alternative would be to only allow juice mixed with water or something else.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    Well, you read wrong. Fructose is a very short chain sugar and is absorbed into the bloodstream a lot faster than "regular" sugar, making it more unhealthy.

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  • [–] 0 points 2 months ago (7 children)

    The problem is processed sugar being the cheapest calories per weight you can find so adding sugar to drinks is hyper cheap while getting people (especially kids) addicted and sick. 100% fruit juices arent the problem.

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  • [–] 6 points 2 months ago (6 children)

    No, the problem is that people have simply demonized soda. HFCS in particular. It's not about sugar, it never has been. An exception for fruit juice makes this obvious. It's the "naturalistic fallacy" in action.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago* (5 children)

    How does an exception for fruit juice (containing natural sugar and relatively expensive) make it obvious that its not about added sugar and cheap drinks?

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (4 children)

    Sugar is exactly as healthy as sugar. Notice how I didn't add any words to the front? Those words don't change how (un)healthy sugar is. The law clearly isn't about health; as it is portrayed.

    Furthermore, they tax artificial sweeteners as well. So, might as well use actual sugar if you are paying the tax either way!

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (3 children)

    Sugar is exactly as healthy as sugar.

    This shows how little you know about the subject yet you keep arguing as if you had facts. Sugar is a category of compounds consisting mainly of saccharids (which again, is a category of compounds). There are literally thousands of "sugars" which vary wildly in their effects on the human body. Also, other stuff you ingest/digest at the same time influences those as well..

    Furthermore, they tax artificial sweeteners as well.

    Nope. Klingbeil revoked that immediately afterwards.

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  • [–] 0 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    This shows how little you know about the subject yet you keep arguing as if you had facts. Sugar is a category of compounds consisting mainly of saccharids (which again, is a category of compounds). There are literally thousands of “sugars” which vary wildly in their effects on the human body. Also, other stuff you ingest/digest at the same time influences those as well…

    Yeah - but that's not what this is about is it? It's "natural good-for-you sugar" vs. "evil corporate refined high-fructose corn syrup". The naturalistic fallacy laid bare.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago* (1 child)

    Not as far as Im concerned. This is "corporations add dirt cheap sugar to drinks making people addicted to poison for cents per liter" vs. "there simply is sugar in a pressed fruit". And does it really matter what the motivation is as long as the desired result is the same? Taxing fruit juices just wouldnt make any sense. Theyre not the problem.

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