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Welp (programming.dev)
submitted 3 months ago by to c/programmer_humor@programming.dev
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  • [–] 18 points 3 months ago (18 children)

    It's not a real thing because it's virtual? Or not being regulated makes it not a real thing?

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  • [–] 16 points 3 months ago (7 children)

    any computer science course teaches those things

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  • [–] 13 points 3 months ago (5 children)

    Oh, boooo. Boooo! Come on, you were lining up a classic crowd favorite, the "Real Engineers understand the fundamentals" attack, then they hit you with the ol' "Some programming courses teach the fundamentals" and you come back with this? No pivot to credentialing, no tirade about how software is all virtual so it's not the same as building something with real materials, no grand declaration about how real engineers have to take their jobs seriously because lives are at stake? Just "no it's programming not engineering they're different"? Weak.

    Back in my day we used to argue about whether or not software engineering is real engineering with some gumption.

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  • [–] 9 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    I'm referring to the tropes of this tired-ass debate, I'm not saying there's any merit to any of them. My heckle is mainly concerned with the lack of substance, even cliched or overused substance, behind the argument you're trying to make. It sounds, based on the disrespectful way you describe coders as "syntax apes", that you don't really understand the craft of software development, the principles of engineering practice, or how the two intersect.

    You sound like a clueless manager who thinks of devs as interchangeable and easily replaceable cogs in a software factory.

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  • [–] 12 points 3 months ago (8 children)

    So you believe that

    1. Engineering is the application of math and science to plan complex systems and structures
    2. Computer science teaches math and science to plan complex systems and structures

    But you believe that computer science prepares students for "programming", not engineering, so they aren't engineers. Despite it being about the application of math and science to design complex systems and structures (engineering) and despite the fact that everyone else calls this profession software engineering and you call it programming. And you don't think you have a bias?

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  • [–] 5 points 3 months ago* (6 children)

    So engineering is not what you said you believe it is, you actually believe it's what you said it is except software engineers because you're a condescending gatekeeper. Software engineering is different from programming.

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  • [–] 25 points 3 months ago (11 children)

    I can tell you have a bachelor's of engineering. Not because I think you're being elitist. But because you haven't yet figured out that words are fluid and don't follow strict rules like systems do.

    English is hard.

    I have a B.E. as well. It took me years to word good.

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  • [–] 11 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    Dude, an Engineer drives a fucking train

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  • [–] 6 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    You're continuing to prove my point. Words can have multiple meanings. Words change over time. The definition of a word is whatever people use it as.

    If tomorrow every bus driver becomes a transportation engineer, and everyone starts calling them that, then that's what engineer means.

    If you cannot accept the above, you cannot properly participate in English.

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  • [–] 12 points 3 months ago (16 children)

    I get your point but I'm not going to pull out my whole resume when, at the end of the day, I write software for a living.

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  • [–] 4 points 3 months ago (13 children)

    Programmers and Software Engineers are different things, tho

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  • [–] 8 points 3 months ago (11 children)

    Yes. But software engineers are engineers. Not all programmers are software engineers.

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  • [–] 11 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    An old professor of mine made the half-joke that anything with 'science' in its name isn't really science. He was a computer science professor.

    I suppose he meant that computer science is closer to applied science aka. engineering than 'real' science like maths and physics, and all their subcategories.

    Anyway... In the end everyone that graduated studying computer science got a Bachelor/Masters degree of science, not engineering... And it doesn't matter anyway...

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  • [–] 11 points 3 months ago (17 children)

    You should post this to UnpopularOpinions.

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  • [–] 10 points 3 months ago* (15 children)

    The default sorting is hot - which does not show your comment at the bottom of the list. It's not a conspiracy, you just said something incredibly naive about a field that is over represented on lemmy.

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  • [–] 5 points 3 months ago (13 children)

    Gosh, did I say you were?

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  • [–] 6 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (9 children)

    Goodness gracious, I think you dropped the whole middle of that quote! Here, let me help you with that:

    you just said something incredibly naive about a field that is over represented on lemmy.

    Oh I'm glad I caught that! Otherwise someone might think you were intentionally trying to remove the part where the subject is clearly the presence of an over-represented field on lemmy, and also clearly isn't saying anything at all about you being on lemmy!

    Man, what a mixup.

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  • [–] 5 points 3 months ago* (5 children)

    Awe, thank you! And you should know, given how hard you're suckin' on that big ol' copium hookah to avoid having to admit how transparently wrong you were!

    Don't suck too hard tho, otherwise your lungs will flip inside out through your mouth and you'll have to live the rest of your life looking like a weird squished fly!

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  • [–] 5 points 3 months ago (4 children)

    I have them tagged as "Fact Troll" because they were making wild statements without backing it up. Tag them, don't take them seriously, and move on.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    Oh no worries, I've had them tagged for ages. They're a known character, and sometimes it's fun to demonstrate why to any new folks that might be reading. But thank you!

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    I'm gonna tag you so I can keep an eye out for burn ward level comebacks. Expert patience. πŸ˜†πŸ‘Œ

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  • [–] 26 points 3 months ago (5 children)

    Do... Do you think software on its own needs no engineering?

    If I say please build me a webshop from scratch, do I need a "computer engineer" which presumingly includes hardware knowledge by your distinction? Probably not. Is a code monkey going to build me the website? Also probably not.

    So somewhere inbetween the two, you probably need a position that can engineer complex pieces of computer code, along with its design and architecture - we could even call it something short, like a software engineer or something

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  • [–] 5 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    A programmer builds the software. An engineer designs it.

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  • [–] 30 points 3 months ago (25 children)

    "Software engineer" will be a thing when it's licensed by the state. Until then, we're all just glorified cowboy-coders with no accountability.

    (Speaking as computer programmer with an EIT in a different field.)

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  • [–] 15 points 3 months ago (5 children)

    IIRC you can't actually use the title "Engineer" prefixed or not without having a P.Eng license here in Canada. Of course, that didn't stop my previous American employers from giving me the title of Software Engineer but it's not supposed to be allowed

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  • [–] 11 points 3 months ago

    Yeah, I've looked it up and this is definitely the case, I've also had both Canadian and American employers refer to my position this way continuously with no repercussions (I similarly have an engineering degree in another field and was an eit and am now in software).

    It's weird because if the provincial engineering societies were serious about enforcing their rules, it would take them ZERO effort to find thousands and thousands and thousands of violations through like a single LinkedIn search. The fact that they dont put in such a minimal amount of effort kind of signals they don't care about the rule.

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  • [–] 5 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    Which is completely stupid, you can perform engineering without having paid the order and it doesn’t feel like there’s any other word that explains the job quite as easily.

    Looking up synonyms though it seems I could legally call myself a β€œsoftware mastermind”, β€œsoftware plotter” or β€œsoftware captain”.

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  • [–] 5 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    I do agree partially but I also get wanting "engineer" to be a protected term. I think software design is probably one more valid uses of the term but I think applying it to everything ain't it (I.e. sanitation engineer).

    Tbh I'm happy enough just having a Software Developer title

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  • [–] 7 points 3 months ago (17 children)

    "Software Engineer" is a title that is licensed by professional engineering organizations in Canada. Would you acknowledge that it's "a thing" in Canada?

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago

    During my computer engineering degree I was required to take enough math credits to earn a mathematics minor, and I learned the physics of transistors at a quantum level as part of the core curriculum. Do you think I can call myself an engineer, or should I limit it to just - what was the wording you used - oh yeah, syntax ape?

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  • [–] 4 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (10 children)

    CAEB accredites Canadian university programs, including civil engineering programs, electrical engineering programs, and yes, software engineering programs. In addition, provincial engineering organizations such as PEO require that all professiomal engineers are employed as engineers in training (EIT) for a period of time, have passed an ethics exam, and are in good professional standing.

    TL;DR: yes, officially recognized software engineers are real engineers in Canada.

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  • [–] 4 points 3 months ago

    The other key requirements I hope your licensing has are continuing education requirements and, most importantly, the notion of being a professional and having accountability to the public, not just your employer. Just taking one college class where you learn about Therac-25 isn't enough; a professional software engineer also needs to have the power to refuse unethical demands by their employer (e.g. to build dark patterns or otherwise enshittify the software) and have that judgement be backed up by the state.

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  • [–] 12 points 3 months ago

    Yeah, I moved into software from electrical engineering. β€œSoftware engineers” are rarely doing engineering. Though, weirdly, the LLM-assisted coding methods seems to be leading to more of a focus on specs, design documents, and testing methodology, which almost makes it more like actual engineering.

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  • [–] 6 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    I'm a "software engineer." One of the most interesting jobs I've had was working on a team of (mostly) electrical engineers at an industrial tool manufacturer. Most of the team designed electronics (primarily IC's) for the controls. A few of us designed software that interacted with said controls.

    That experience taught me that engjneering, at its core, is just solving problems in a given domain with a a specific set of "tools". I was amazed by how much thought process overlap there is between software and electronics engineering.

    My job is solving business problems. Writing code is auxiliary to that. And even though I don't have have a degree or any certifications, none of the people on that team ever talked down to me or tried to make me feel inferior.

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