1151
Desensitization to guns (lemmy.world)
submitted 5 months ago by to c/whitepeopletwitter@sh.itjust.works
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[–] 94 points 5 months ago (58 children)

I don't think non-Americans appreciate how few guns one encounters in America if one isn't a gun nut or gun-nut-adjacent. It is not that everybody owns a gun. It's that the relative few people who own dozens or hundreds of guns skew the average.

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  • [–] 14 points 5 months ago (13 children)

    All of our street cops are also carrying guns around, which (if I'm not mistaken) is not the case everywhere.

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  • [–] 15 points 5 months ago (3 children)

    Years ago, the UK government announced they were going to arm the general police. The people with the biggest issue with it was the police union!

    The UK has a police by consent basis. The heaviest firepower they carry is a tazer. If there is a risk of guns being involved, the normal police pull back and call in the armed response officers. When they do, however, they call the whole cavalry!

    End result, criminals don't feel they MUST have a gun to defend from the police. Conversely, going in armed will bring the whole, focused weight of the armed response down on you. (As in multiple helicopter level searches) Most don't carry guns, and so the status quo keeps everyone safe.

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    criminals don't feel they MUST have a gun to defend from the police

    Criminals know that they won't win a gunfight against the police. Instead they always flee, and if they're caught often have their guns on them or in their vehicle.

    Most criminals in the US who carry guns do so to kill rival criminals. The police or law-abiding civilians being disarmed wouldn't change that.

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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    I'm not saying the USA should just disarm its police. I was more pointing out how fucked up gun culture has made it. Most UK gangs don't have guns. The risk reward balance doesn't justify them. Any gang that does try to escalate with guns becomes the focus of a LOT of police attention.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago

    Sure, that increased attention probably makes a difference, but 'gun culture' is not the reason US police forces often seem to do a mediocre job investigating gang vs gang killing. Nor is having guns what makes the killings happen. It's exactly the other way around. They have the guns in order to kill their gang opposition. If you could magically un-invent guns they would be using other tool to do it because the numerous other societal problems which created the environment of desperation hadn't been solved.

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  • [–] 5 points 5 months ago (3 children)

    I remember I visited Italy on a Latin class trip back in high school, and got a real culture shock when I saw carabinieri(?) patrolling the airport armed with some kind of assault rifles or SMGs. I don't remember seeing any "normal" police once I was out walking around in the cities so I have no idea if they would've been armed or not, but that was definitely heavier weaponry than I'd seen any American cop carrying, in the airport or otherwise.

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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    Yeah, in Italy there's a lot of armed officials in public places and big stations (even train stations!). Usually they're only there to look intimidating. The ones who will actually bother people (usually immigrants) are regular policemen, who, paradoxically, are less likely to carry firearms

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  • [–] 4 points 5 months ago (4 children)

    It's pretty common, I think only Ireland and Britain (among countries that people are likely to visit) don't carry guns.

    In fact, what's unusual is that in many places where civilian use of guns is extremely rare, police standing around with submachine guns in airports, train stations, etc. is common.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago (1 child)

    I think it’s more common in Europe since those are large targets for terrorism. Plus if you have a distinct “armed police” they are more likely to be heavily armed.

    Also, I think most police outside of major cities in the USA all have ARs in their patrol cars now. I remember when my cop buddy was complaining about five years ago when they took his car shotgun and gave him an AR instead.

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago

    Terrorism is still incredibly rare. Perhaps a train station is a bit more likely as a target, but it's extremely unlikely that any given train station will be attacked. And, an "armed response" team is pretty similar to a SWAT team. They're probably better used sitting in some central place from which they can quickly mobilize and get anywhere rather than walking around among the public at an airport or train station.

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  • [–] 14 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

    Are we or are we not counting the fair few you don't see because they're concealed on the people around you?

    And yes the stats are absolutely skewed by gun nuts with big collections it's still true that 40% or more of American households have a gun...

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  • [–] 12 points 5 months ago (4 children)

    There's fucking ammo at wallmart. You can't even comprehend how mindboggling that is in most countries

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  • [–] 5 points 5 months ago (3 children)

    Why would it be mind boggling that a supermarket carry ammo? What is mind boggling is you can order a case online and have it to your doorstep in 2 days.

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  • [–] 10 points 5 months ago (4 children)

    But I'd feel uneasy not knowing which of them is the nutty one.

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  • [–] 9 points 5 months ago (3 children)

    A lot of the nutters tend to advertise it at least. Super gung-ho patriot driving an oversized truck with Trump and flag stickers, maybe an actual flag, possibly open carrying, yard with one or multiple trump signs and likely American flags in case you forget which country you’re in, probably some cars on the lawn as decoration… you get the picture

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  • [–] 7 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    Yeah, I think I get it, but I don't want to share the planet with them as well.

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  • [–] 4 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    Yeah.. can’t say I’m the biggest fan of living in an area where I have several examples within walking distance of me, it has left me feeling slightly on edge at times. I don’t think it’d be taken too kindly if I started to get outspoken about politics so I just let it be

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  • [–] 62 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (16 children)

    I'll disagree. I've been mugged. There have also been two times I've visited friends that have been casually cleaning guns when I arrived. A person I do martial arts with has a conceal carry and has come in with it a few times. Every cop has at least one. There's a gun store that's on my commute route. I was hiking and crossed paths with an elderly couple on horseback and they were packing. I've known two people that have killed themselves with a gun. I drilled with fake guns in NJROTC in high school and there were opportunities to train and compete in marksmanship with actual guns. I shot BB guns in Cub Scouts (those two are just examples as to how young gun culture becomes part of an American's life). When I was growing up, Walmart sold guns and ammo. They still do in certain places.

    I have to factor into my interactions with people if they have a gun. Like I put up with a lot more shitty behavior on the road because I live in a state with a high incidence of guns being involved with road rage incidents. If I get into an argument with my neighbor, is that conservative asshole going to do something stupid if things escalate (yeah yeah, don't escalate, just an example). All the POCs I know have been taught how to behave during a traffic stop to reduce their chances of getting shot by a cop.

    I've never even held or shot a real gun, but guns permeate my life.

    Edit: Christ, the people who are advocating fear of gun violence being good for society is how idiotic of a gun culture there is in the US.

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  • [–] 23 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    It really depends on where you live in the USA. Where I live theres definitely people with guns but it’s unusual to see someone actually carrying one outside their home. Now my cousins live like 1-2 hours away (still in the same state) and it’s super common there for people to carry their gun on them at all times for some fucking reason. So my cousins are way more used to seeing guns than my siblings and I are

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  • [–] 11 points 5 months ago (3 children)

    The possibility of getting shot has broadly convinced the general public to improve their own behavior.

    No. Guns give assholes carte blanche to be an asshole without consequences.

    Your argument makes no sense. We should deescalate but fear for our lives so we behave? Who's gonna escalate to put the fear into people? Rethink and try again.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (2 children)

    No. Guns give assholes carte blanche to be an asshole without consequences.

    The idea that actions should have consequences is the real problem that both your latest and your parent comment describe. Parent comment talks about "putting up with shitty behavior", implying that they should be able to directly respond to such behavior. Any such response is "escalation". Your parent comment is describing a desire to commit offensive behavior, but that offensive behavior is held in check out of fear of a gun. You behave better.

    Your current "consequences" argument says the same thing: You observe what you perceive to be poor behavior, and wish for "consequences". If that wish culminates in any sort of direct interaction with the poorly behaved, you have escalated. Your "fear for our lives" holds your own behavior in check. You behave better.

    I can't control the road raging asshole. You can't control the road raging asshole. There will always be one road raging asshole somewhere. There doesn't need to be three. You can look inward and recognize the harmful, hostile attitudes in yourself that would lead to road rage, and you can actively suppress them. Alternatively, you can fear the external consequences arising from entertaining those harmful attitudes, and elect against such behaviors.

    So long as you are going to continue to rationalize your good behavior as being the result of other people being armed, I'm not going to support your efforts to disarm the people creating those good results.

    (Edit: Somehow I thought that you were an additional commenter. Edited to reflect that you are also the parent commenter)

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  • [–] 5 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    Allow me to clarify: I don't want to ram someone off the road, I just want there to be a way to give feedback without it being escalated from there. Thumbs down, not finger up. Not that people who already drive like that give a shit about other people and any feedback lesser than a major accident. I'm real tired of the car culture here, too.

    We do this all the time when on foot. Somebody bumps into someone else, maybe somebody says sorry or watch where you're going. Or maybe someone decides to pull a gun. That's more what I'm getting at.

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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

    How many dashcam videos do you need to see of drivers crashing into vehicles or obstacles while giving or receiving such "feedback"?

    You are turning your attention away from driving, and focusing instead on "feedback". Simultaneously, you are distracting the shitty driver from driving, and forcing them to focus on your attempt at providing "feedback". Two drivers are now distracted from the road because you felt some pressing need to communicate your displeasure.

    You say "feedback", I say "escalation", and "endangerment". Again, if the possibility of a gun is what keeps you from choosing to escalate in this fashion, I cannot support your efforts to disarm.

    Quite the contrary, I would prefer that you chose to arm yourself. Then you would understand that your feedback is not worth the risk, and a person providing you with such "feedback" is not worth your time. You would recognize that if you drew your firearm during a road rage incident, you would invite prison time for brandishing, manslaughter, or attempted murder. You would already understand the extreme dangers of escalation, and would actively avoid it. You would hold your ego in check, rather than allowing it free rein over your actions.

    The best course of action is to open the distance between you and the shitty driver. Not try to convince them of their shittiness. If you need them to be possibly armed for your ego to allow you to retreat, then it is better for everyone on the road that they be armed.

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  • [–] 8 points 5 months ago (7 children)

    The possibility of getting shot has broadly convinced the general public to improve their own behavior.

    Pure nonsense. That is just regurgitating NRA propaganda, "an armed society is a polite society", when we know for objective fact that the opposite is true. Gun incidents happen more frequently in the US on a "spur of the moment" thing exactly because they are so prevalent. Arguments more frequently escalate into murder because of the presence of guns, while they don't in societies where guns are rarer.

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  • [–] 6 points 5 months ago (5 children)

    No, I did not indicate it's an improvement. Please get your words out of my mouth.

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago (3 children)

    I'd like to be able to give feedback without escalation. I don't engage in extra risky driving behavior for a whole lot more reasons than guns. My point is I have to have that as a factor, not that it consumes my every thought. If guns were the only thing keeping me from behaving badly, I don't think I'd like myself very much. If you think guns are or should be a primary motivator for good behaviors, I'm pretty sure we wouldn't get along either. I'm done with this for today; I've been given the maintenance dose for my misanthropy.

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  • [–] 4 points 5 months ago

    Well, "relative few" is technically correct at about 45% of Americans. Now, way less than that carry, and even less with any regularity, and even less open carry, so yeah you probably don't see them often, but they're around.

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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago (4 children)

    Yeah, as a life-long Californian I've seen only a dozen or so guns in my entire life not in the hands or belts of police officers.

    Still, we know they are out there. People in rough areas of town are going to have a very different experience.

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  • [–] 7 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    not in the hands or belts of police officers

    I'd like to just point out that this alone is a huge difference. Police in Europe generally do not carry firearms. It's even unusual to see them with weapons at an airport.

    I could be subject to police brutality from a random traffic stop technically, but I wouldn't have any chance of a gun being pulled on me.

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  • [–] 4 points 5 months ago

    Not in Europe generally. It is true for the UK, but not so much anywhere else. But even in European countries with armed police deescalation is still the pereferred method and they only rarely draw their guns or fire them, especially compared to the US where the police have been trained with overly aggressive lethal violence responses.

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  • [–] 4 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    Concealed is concealed. If we're seeing them, they're doing concealment wrong.

    We can look at the rate of licensing to get an idea of scale and prevalence.

    In 15 states, more than 1 in 10 adults have permits. Pennsylvania, ~1 in 6. Colorado, ~1 in 5. Indiana, over 22% of adults are licensed concealed carriers.

    Nationwide, 7.8% of adults are licensed. Outside CA and NY, 9.3% of adults are currently licensed.

    Licensing numbers peaked in 2022, but 29 states (Covering 47% of the population) have recently abandoned licensing requirements. The reduced number of licenses don't indicate falling carry rates.

    To me, the most interesting statistic from that link is almost overlooked: We all know that cops are under-prosecuted and under-convicted for their crimes. ACAB. Despite their cop-privilege, police are still convicted of gun crimes at 12 times the rate of licensed concealed carriers.

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  • [–] 4 points 5 months ago

    They also kill around 1k people a year.... including suicides, 1 in 40 of all gun deaths are from the police. Take out the suicides, and it's down to 1 in 13.5/14... basically the cops kill a lot of people in the usa.

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    This is the same with any enthusiast though. A keen cyclist will typically have multiple bikes, a car enthusiast will have a few cars, etc. Given how easy guns are to store, it's no surprise that people will have a collection.

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago

    Yeah I can count on one hand the amount of guns I've seen in person even after going to gun nut relatives' houses.

    This is ignoring police guns because yeah that skews results. Like autistic kids skewing tech literacy resultd.

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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago

    I still suspect you have been desensinsitivised to the permeation of guns in the US so you don't really notice it, and downplay it in your mind. I can assure you people from outside of the US does notice it though.

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