▲ 410 ▼ Everything belongs to the workers (lemmy.ml) submitted 6 months ago by yogthos@lemmy.ml to c/socialism@lemmy.ml 361 comments fedilink hide all child comments
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago* (105 children) Regarding empiricism, I already explained that I interpreted your comment identifying yourself as an empiricist to be a declaration against dialectical materialism, and towards metaphysical materialism. After you explainend that you did not mean that, I better understood you. Again, Lenin wrote the book Materialism and Empirio-Criticism against vulgar empiricism, but empiricism itself as a method of observation combined with dialectical materialism is not a bad thing. That's why I chalk it up to language difference. As for China, your only sources seem to be vibes and personal anecdote regarding working hours. This is unacceptable for a socialist to use as ammo against a socialist state, and is plainly disappointing to see. I have hope in Russian communists to eventually bring a return of socialism to Eastern Europe, but seeing this kind of behavior is disappointing, and I'm glad it isn't an official party statement. As for the USSR, I was not calling it Utopian. I was specifically calling you a Utopian for your focus on "model-building." The USSR was no utopia, it was a real socialist state, just like China is today. What I was calling Utopian was your definition of socialism as "whatever the Soviets did," ie by measuring how socialist a country is by how closely it follows the Soviet example. The Soviet system was the socialist system suited to Eastern Europe in the conditions of the 20th century, it is not a permanent model to be emulated and perpetuated but was a living and evolving system. When I speak of Utopianism, I mean the type of socialist such as Robert Owen and Saint Simon, the pre-Marxist socialists Engels countered in Socialism: Utopian and Scientific. I truly believe you are getting mixed up and believing me to claim the USSR was Utopian, but that's not at all my point. I believe we are purely looking at a language barrier causing miscommunication. As for the difference between Chinese and Russian workers, Chinese workers control the state and thus direct the social surplus of society towards pro-social ends. The commanding heights of industry are publicly owned in China. Again, China is closer to a more complex and developed NEP than the modern Russian economy. Socialism is not simply "having social programs," otherwise the Nordics would be socialist. Instead, the class character of the state and the principal aspect of the economy are critical. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 105 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (87 children) Regarding the question of empiricism, we are in agreement. As I already said, I mistook your identity as an empiricist to be as against dialectical materialism, as that's how it's commonly understood. Regarding you talking about workers and their rights, no, you were not. You were talking about your perception of workers and their rights, which stands in stark contrast to hard data. This is why I said you rely on vibes and anecdote, which goes against empiricism and dialectical materialism. You fall into idealism when you mistake your individual experience as conclusive for the whole. As for your yearning for the past, I can also understand that, and have. That's why I pointed at this being a language barrier issue. My problem was that you implied soviet socialism as "true" socialism, implying that all non-soviet socialism is "false" socialism. This narrows down socialism not to a broader system characterized by proletarian control of the state, and collectivized production as the principal aspect of the economy, but instead treats socialism as a uniquely soviet experience that must be replicated as closely as possible to be "true." I am still of the belief that this is largely a language barrier problem. As for why the people of China have different social safety nets from the Soviet Union, these each have their own historical roots. China's social surplus largely goes towards advancing the productive forces, alleviating the urban/rural development gap, and building mass transit and infrastructure for use by the people. For all of the soviet union's incredible results, China has managed to develop even more quickly and thus transfer that into real material gains for 1.4 billion people. China started off even less developed than Russia, and managed to develop farther because of these tradeoffs. As wonderful as the Soviet Union was, it is sadly not here today, and thus we have to recognize that existing socialist countries have had to grapple with how to avoid a similar fate. China chose integration with the world economy, and prioritizing growth over social programs, in order to surpass the west and avoid the same trap of historical nihilism that set in with Khrushchev onward. For all of the ways China is lacking compared to the Soviets, their gamble appears to be paying off, and China is indeed advancing beyond the west and transitioning more towards a more socialized economy. As for your repeated belittlement of me as a "western Marxist," I detest it. I ignored it thus far, but you've continued to do so, treating me as a simpleton with no understanding of theory, history, or contemporary conditions. This is no way to act towards someone you've been calling "comrade." As far as "western Marxism" is concerned, I am not a part of that school of thought in the slightest. I may be a westerner, but I reject the standard Trotskyism and Eurocommunist schools of thought that had dominance in the west. Marxism-Leninism is seeing a revival, and I fall squarely into that school of thought. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 87 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (21 children) Yes, I largely agree. When I speak of "empiricism," the notion in English Marxist circles is often used to refer to "stupid materialism," as you called it, as it implies this materialism stops at empiricism and does not go into dialectics. That's why, even if we use empiricism, we do not identify as "empiricists" but "dialectical materialists." permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 21 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (19 children) Really, this is what I'm more getting at: Dialectics as living, many-sided knowledge (with the number of sides eternally increasing) — with an infinite number of shades of every approach and approximation to reality, with a philosophical system growing into a whole out of each shade — is immeasurably richer than “metaphysical” materialism, whose main problem is its inability to apply dialectics to the Bildertheorie, to the process and development of knowledge. Philosophical idealism is only nonsense from the standpoint of crude, simple, metaphysical materialism. From the standpoint of dialectical materialism, on the other hand, philosophical idealism is a one-sided and exaggerated development, inflating and distending one of the aspects or facets of knowledge into an absolute — divorced from matter and nature, deified. It is true that idealism is clerical obscurantism, but philosophical idealism is also, more correctly, a road to clerical obscurantism through one of the sides of the infinitely complex dialectical knowledge of man. V. I. Lenin permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 19 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (17 children) Subtitles do not work in English on my end, so unfortunately I cannot read it, and I do not speak Russian. Is there a text version I can run through a translator? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 17 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (14 children) There are certainly new contradictions that arose from Reform and Opening Up, but without it it is highly unlikely that China would be in the position it is today, with incredible advancements in the productive forces and a new, multipolar order. I don't believe this is a departure from classical Marxism at all, but a different application of the same classical Marxist economics. Again, the Soviet economy is not the definition of socialism, but one application of Marxist economics. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 14 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (12 children) I'm aware of the intense nostalgia faced by the post-soviet peoples. I myself would probably fall into despair seeing such a system ripped from under my feet. I know many in Russia travel to the DPRK as it more closely resembles the Soviet era, despite being its own unique form of juche socialism. However, as I stand outside of the post-soviet sphere, in a country founded on genocide and settler-colonialism that continued to prey upon the world, I also believe I can have a view of Chinese, Korean, and former Soviet socialism that recognizes them all as legitimate emancipatory efforts. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 12 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (10 children) I can certainly empathize. I have emotions, I'm a human being that feels anger and frustration, and can have that cloud my judgment. In that way, I have a "soul," though to be clear I do not believe in literal souls. However, I do not believe that emotional evaluations supercede rational ones, which is why I can say I would probably feel that way despite understanding it to be incorrect. As for juche, it's a Korean word. It largely means subjecthood, and can best be described as socialism with Korean characteristics. The party is not a privledged class in the DPRK, it's similar to how it was with the CPSU. Instead, the significance of juche comes from the understanding of man as a social being. It accepts Marxism-Leninism as fundamentally true, but that the soviet method could not be dogmatically copied by the DPRK and thus the conditions in Korea meant it had to adapt. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (4 children) Regarding car ownership, it's rising dramatically even in the last year. At one point it was far more limited, but the DPRK's economy is booming and trade with China is rising. As for apartments, I don't doubt that better apartments are made available to more critical workers and party members, this is similar to the USSR. The DPRK is constantly building new apartments, and as this happens the range with which people can get apartments widens. As for China's rural conditions, I'm well aware of the urban/rural gap, and this is thankfully something the CPC is focusing on improving. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments load more comments (4 replies) load more comments (5 replies) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (2 replies) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (62 children) To be clear, I don't believe you are a subjective idealist. I believe that your nostalgia for a once great and now lost USSR has colored your analysis, but I believe you in general are more of a materialist. My critique of certain points of yours as metaphysical or idealist is constrained to those positions. As for the progress in China, it's already happening at a breakneck pace. Conditions are improving in China faster than anywhere else in the world. So what if they made a deal with the western devil? The soviets did so too during the NEP, the CPC revisited that idea and modified it to their contemporary conditions. Any comparison between the snake Khrushchev and Deng Xiaoping has to be understood in that Khrushchev downplayed the entirety of socialist construction thus far, creating historical pessimism, while Deng made it clear that Mao and Stalin were to be upheld, and that class struggle was alive and must be carefully fought. The Soviet models of socialism were not idealist, nor subjective. It was materialist, worked well, and was well-suited to the Soviet Union's conditions. My issue was the idea that if, say, Bolivia's ongoing protests erupt into revolution, that they should copy some period of the Soviet Union's models of socialism, rather than learn from it and adapt to their own conditions. Bolivia's conditions are not the same as the USSR's. As for Trotsky being for the NEP and Stalin being against it, the NEP ending early ended up being fortuitous in preparing for World War II. Had World War II not been on the horizon, then perhaps extending it may have been correct, to help develop light industry more. In China's case, their socialist market economy was handled in such a way as to rely on largely de-industrialized economies, thus the risk of war was lower while in the USSR a war was always around the corner. As for "western Marxism," in the west it is used as a pejorative against Marxists that vulgarize Marx and Lenin, opposing socialist states. I am happy that you meant no offense by it, comrade. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 62 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (60 children) Stalin was correct about industrialization in the 1930s, especially considering the external conditions and environment the soviets found themselves in. The incredible rates of industrialization were unprecedented in history, and the fact that industrialization was completed is why the heroic Red Army was equipped and able to defeat the Nazi menace. Mao's economy was also fantastic at getting rapid growth. Under Mao, life expectancy similarly doubled, and production was rapidly expanding. At the same time, growth was unstable, and many areas were lagging behind. What the CPC identified as lacking was on the technological front, as well as the productive forces in general. Deng's advancements did not overturn what Mao had created, they built upon it. While Stalin's artels were effective, and I was unaware of many of their specifics as you have now pointed out to me (thank you, by the way), they still did not have the same impact of undermining western production and accelerating technology transfer that Reform and Opening Up brought. I do not care for the "soul" being tarnished, the fact of the matter is that western technology is no longer a monopoly to hold on the world and enforce unequal exchange, and now China is eroding the foundations of modern imperialism and neocolonialism. As for Khrushchev, I do not deny the benefits of the Krushchevkas and other advancements. However, I called Khrushchev a snake, because the snake had venom. In casting Stalin to hell, he created a sense of historical nihilism. His insistence that the USSR had abolished class was also shortsighted. These fundamental errors weakened the CPSU, and created the foundation for further errors in Gorbachev's reforms. The CPC watched and refused to make the same mistakes. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 60 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (58 children) The NEP was forged in the context of a highly undeveloped Russia, with a necessity to uplift agriculture as soon as possible so as to rapidly improve industry. The hatred of the people towards the NEPmen was understandable, but a clear reading of the historical material conditions reveals that it was necessary. As long as the socialist state holds the commanding heights of industry, and maintains a vigilant eye towards any organized political resistance from the petite bourgeoisie and bourgeoisie, markets can be a complementary part to the broader socialist system in developing underdeveloped areas. As for Mao's economy, it was again rapid industrialization. The problem with Mao's economy was that growth was uneven and unstable. Deng Xiaoping's reforms stabilized and slightly accelerated development. You'll get no argument from me that killing off the sparrows was wrong, but knowledge of agronomics was very low comparatively in China, and thus this mistake was not repeated as their knowledge advanced. I also am not a fan of the sino-soviet split. I do not believe Mao to have been blameless for it, however, Khrushchev's venom was correctly called out by Mao. Just as Mao wasn't permanently good, so too was Khrushchev not permanently bad, but there's good reason why Khrushchev's actions enabled Gorbachev's, which enabled Yeltsin's. Regarding technology transfer, certainly you can see that Chinese manufacturing is now more advanced than soviet manufacturing. In becoming the world's factory, they not only copied western tech, but totally owned the entire production process, and now are using it to advance and develop further. There is a qualitative difference between reverse engineering every single thing you copy, and being able to simply copy what you're already manufacturing. All in all, I understand that I am not Russian. I am indeed a westerner, damned as I may be. However, I truly believe that I can recognize both the Chinese and Soviet approaches as immensely positive forces, and hope that Russia returns to socialism within my lifetime. I long to see the western empire fall, and I am happy to see existing socialist countries advance forward into the future despite western flailing. The west has fallen into China's trap, and it is too late to leave. What we are witnessing is a cornered beast that has already lost, and is throwing a fit in the aftermath. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 58 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (24 children) I want to make it clear, I am aware the Soviets had incredible technology that the west did not even have, at least for a time. My point regarding China's Socialist Market Economy is that the process of technology transfer happens faster, more completely, and is now being phased out in favor of new Chinese tech that in many fields is advanced beyond the west. China's socialist market economy is not a permanent strategy, but instead a tactical decision in a longer battle, and that's why the birdcage is closing. As for the cornered beast, I am referring to America. Russia certainly has a real need to return to socialism, but America is the one on its way out. And yes, the hatred of America is real, even liberals are beginning to detest America (though of course they will repeat nonsense about communism until they turn blue in the face). The Empire is dying. It can certainly lash out violently, but it cannot and will not save itself. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 24 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (22 children) One could say that the reason the Soviets could not get the same western investment is because of the differences between the soviet system and the Chinese system. This is why it's best not to look at socialism like a static formula, but a science with options and tradeoffs. China's decision came with good and bad, the soviet decision came with good and bad, the correct decision is only truly identifiable in hindsight. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 22 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (19 children) Stalin also made errors and mistakes in socialist construction. You are overweighting Mao's mistakes and ignoring the successes under Mao, the establishment and solidification of socialism in China. The modern CPC has learned from both the successes and mistakes of both Stalin and Mao, while the CPSU decayed. As much as I wish the USSR had not dissolved, it did, and we are in the aftermath of such a tragedy. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 19 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (13 children) I believe you are mistaken, comrade. I am not actually Nikita Khrushchev nor am I Mao Zedong. Any "double-standard" you see with Deng Xiaoping's Reform and Opening Up as a result of problems with the late Mao era and the Gang of Four must be considered from that context, and not merely from one aspect of Mao's critique of Khrushchev's policy before the Gang of Four era. Regarding the Gang of Four, they were largely an extension of Mao's incorrect lines towards the end of his life, without most of his positive lines. Deng Xiaoping corrected the course for the new era of development, having inherited a basically industrialized economy but with widespread poverty and backwards technology. As for China outmaneuvering the west, I agree. This is pretty plainly what happened, despite what the west thought they could get away with, China maintained a dictatorship of the proletariat and maintained political control in the socialist market economy. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 13 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (9 children) It's widely acknowledged that the later Mao era and the era of the Gang of Four was filled with mistakes, and that Reform & Opening Up was a course correction. You may call this "double standards," but learning from mistakes when practice doesn't live up to expectations is how we grow. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 9 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (8 children) It’s widely acknowledged that the later Mao We’ve finally reached a consensus, Comrade! There’s just a slight discrepancy regarding the dates. You say the late Mao era began in 1968, whereas I maintain that the late Mao era you’re referring to actually began after Stalin’s death. Let me just clarify one more thing: from 1950 onwards—after suffering four strokes—Stalin didn’t really make any major decisions in the country. A triumvirate was formed—Malenkov, Beria, and Molotov—to prepare all key state projects, while Stalin merely affixed the final approval. So, in essence, Stalin had already died back in 1950. If we settle on a middle ground... say, 1959—would that work for you, Comrade?... )))) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (7 children) I don't think we are going to come to an agreement here. I wouldn't put a hard date on it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (6 children) Comrade, just so you know: if I use ")))", it means I'm joking. Of course, one shouldn't date events that way. I wanted to highlight the fact that you agreed with me on at least one thing!))) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (5 children) I understand )))! Just not used to seeing it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (4 children) When you see that ")))", you’ll realize you’re talking to a Russian or a Russian speaker. Okay, in that case, let’s talk about humor. Let’s talk about folklore. Folklore isn't about the state; it’s about the people. Folklore reflects the collective mindset of the people—I think you’d agree with that... Vox populi, vox Dei. Here’s a Soviet-era joke; these few lines capture the whole essence: "To launch a satellite, the Chinese formed a human pyramid a thousand stories high, but it collapsed because the guy on the three-hundred-and-seventeenth floor hadn't properly mastered Mao's Little Red Book." You’re an intelligent person, so you surely understand that my views were formed back in early childhood. It’s something ingrained at a subconscious level. So, please forgive me for my past stubbornness. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (3 children) I understand and can empathize with your views, I just have disagreements on certain aspects. These of course are colored by both of our upbringings, you within the Soviet Union and me entirely disconnected from socialism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (2 children) I very often fill gaps in my theoretical knowledge with personal experience—please forgive me for that! I would also like to note that the interpretation of Marx's theory in the USSR was somewhat simplified. For instance, the USSR acknowledged the existence of a primitive communal system but not the "Asiatic mode of production." I only heard about the latter recently. I would like to highlight this aspect; perhaps the key to what is currently happening in China lies there. Given that my knowledge of Marx's theory is superficial—and considering that Marx did not outline a precise model for constructing socialism (his work was largely a theoretical analysis of capitalism and its consequences)—it is worth noting that philosophy never sets concrete tasks for the individual. Regarding your view of Marx's philosophy, I can also point out an inaccuracy. You state that Marx envisioned the construction of socialism only within the context of developed capitalism, based on highly advanced productive forces. However, that is not entirely the case. In a letter to Vera Zasulich (dated March 8, 1881), https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%83%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%87,_%D0%92%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B0_%D0%98%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BD%D0%B0 Karl Marx stated that Russia could bypass the painful stage of capitalism. He emphasized that his theory was not a universal historical prescription and that the Russian peasant commune could, under certain conditions, become the nucleus of socialist development. Marx told Zasulich at the time that education was one of the most crucial factors in the possibility of bypassing the agonizing stage of capitalism. The bottom line is this: Lenin and Trotsky supported the NEP, whereas Stalin sided with "Zasulich." Stalin turned out to be entirely right, and he did not deviate from Marx's theory by even a millimeter. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] timdrake@lemmy.ml 1 point 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) In the preface to the 1882 Russian edition of the Manifesto, Marx and Engels say that the Russian commune could “pass directly to the higher form of Communist common ownership” only if the Russian Revolution (which he saw as inevitable, though it was not inevitable that it would "take[] place in time" (first draft of letter to Zasulich), and in the Letter to Otecestvenniye Zapisky he says that if Russia continues on its path, it will have lost this chance to skip the phase of capitalist development) is supported by wider revolution in the West. Otherwise, the Russian commune “must [] first pass through the same process of dissolution such as constitutes the historical evolution of the West.” There’s zero approval by Marx here for the notion of skipping the phase of private production/property in one country without a wider revolution. Marx told Zasulich at the time that education was one of the most crucial factors in the possibility of bypassing the agonizing stage of capitalism. No he didn’t. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago You misinterpret Marx's statement. I'm fully aware of Marx's views on the Russian commune movement, the problem is that you assume the Soviet model is what Marx was referring to, and that a more classically Marxist understanding of socialism was not what he meant. Marx was fairly explicit in what a socialist state would be, one where public ownership is principal and the working classes control the state. The Russian peasantry could have bypassed the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie and went straight to a dictatorship of the proletariat and peasantry, but they would not be able to avoid the problem of transitioning small ownership to large, industrialized ownership without the aid of markets. The fact of the matter is that private property existed de facto in the USSR. One of the mistakes of former socialism was merely trying to punish private ownership, rather than subordinate it to the public sector. Marx analyzed markets as being enormously useful in stitching together all of the small owners and building up productive forces, and public ownership as being superior at running large industry. Stalin ending the NEP early was a matter of survival, and was correct. China's conditions are different, and now occupies a more classically Marxist economy. It isn't even the same as the NEP, China was closer to the NEP under Mao, the socialist market economy of China is a more classically Marxist economy, with the ability to be so precisely because the imperialists cannot afford to decouple from them. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (3 replies) load more comments (5 replies) load more comments (2 replies) load more comments (1 reply) [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (30 children) Abolishing the NEP in the USSR and moving onto more planned economy ended up being beneficial. However, in the case of China, the NEP-inspired socialist market economy is the reason China is where they are today. New contradictions have arisen, which is of course a gamble, but with that came highly developed productive forces and tight interconnection with the global economy. This has allowed the PRC to reach where the USSR could not, and the developed productive forces are forming the basis of the newly emerging, more planned economy. As for Mao, China was horribly underdeveloped. Many of his mistakes were in dealing with such an environment, knowledge of agronomics was low and industrialization was non-existent. Under Mao, a solid socialist base was laid out, which managed to created the basis for the modern economy. As for the Sino-Soviet split, it's a tragedy, and was avoidable. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 30 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (12 children) I'm not denying that China has shortcomings. I believe you are magnifying them beyond their actual levels. As for Cheng Enfu's diagram, it essentially describes increasing planning and decreasing marketization over time. Marketization helps socialize production, and over time this is reigned in, creating a fully planned economy. As for Mao Zedong Thought, some aspects have applicability elsewhere. The Mass Line is a generally useful tactic, Protracted People's War can be useful in largely agrarian countries with high peasant populations and smaller urban centers, and so forth. It isn't universal, but Mao Zedong Thought works well for China and tactics from it have seen success in the global south, including in Vietnam. As for your insinuation that there are privledged people in China, yes, this is true. This is a side-effect of the socialist market economy. It's a tradeoff, an inefficiency that serves as a sort of price for the positive aspects of the socialist market economy. Excessive luxury is being cracked down on, and as China's socialist system develops, obscene wealth is being diminished while absolute wealth rises for the average worker. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 12 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (10 children) I never said Mao did not rely heavily on the USSR, so I will largely ignore those points as we do not really disagree. Regarding the Mass Line, it is essentially the tactic of taking policy from the people, and having the party reinterpret it and enact it accordingly. It is a way to avoid commandism and tailism, and has been applied by various ML or Maoist parties. Maoists tend to believe it is universal, while MLs tend to believe it is particular to certain conditions similar to China's experience. As for cracking down on excessive luxury, one example is the censorship of flaunting wealth on social media, and punishing those found guilty of corruption, taking bribes, etc. In China, the number of billionaires is decreasing, as the NEP-style economy is transitioning to a more advanced planned economy gradually. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (8 children) I'm aware that Mao believed that. That's why the narrative that Deng Xiaoping "backstabbed" socialism is false, Reform & Opening Up was a continuation of the economic basis laid out by Mao. As for cracking down on flaunting wealth, if your impression is already highly skeptical of China, it can seem that it's only to hide it from the public. A more comprehensive view of China, however, reveals it to not be mere rhetoric but the outcome of having both a socialist state and the contradictions rising from marketization. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (7 children) I’m aware that Mao believed that. Yes, exactly! That is the main argument—held by the Chinese themselves, by Western socialists (Trotskyists), and by the "new breed" of Western socialists (like you): that China fell out with the USSR because Khrushchev pursued a policy of "openness." But I keep telling you all that this isn't true, and it wasn't about Stalin! The reason was something else entirely. Relations between Khrushchev and Mao deteriorated completely after Mao asked the USSR to build a nuclear submarine fleet for China. Khrushchev agreed, but with the stipulation that the fleet would be a joint venture and based in Soviet Far Eastern ports. For some reason, Mao took great offense at this and refused. Now you can see just how brazen Mao was. These are all matters of public record; you can read about it yourself. I believe the reason for the rift was that, after Stalin's death, Mao considered himself the world's leading socialist—superior to the others and capable of handling everything on his own. He did not view Khrushchev as his equal. We saw how that turned out. As for cracking down on flaunting wealth, if your impression is already highly skeptical of China, it can seem that it’s only to hide it from the public. Yes, I know the statistics: wage growth in China is 4–6% annually. But I’m not convinced that wages are rising only for the poor—or that the 4–6% gains belonging to the middle and upper classes are being taken away and redistributed to China’s lower-income population. Show me the data on that trend, and then I’ll agree with you. I’d like to see statistics for these companies: JD.com: The revenue leader among China’s private enterprises, generating around 1.16 trillion yuan annually. Alibaba Group: JD.com’s main rival in the e-commerce market, showing steady growth driven by logistics and international expansion. ByteDance (owner of TikTok): The fastest-growing brand and largest private tech corporation. According to analyst reports, its brand value grew by 45% in a single year, reaching $153.5 billion. In cases where profits surged by 45% (an increase of 70 billion per year), exactly how much of that actually went to the poorer segments of the population? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (6 children) I think you're reading more into my position than I have stated myself. I understand that Mao was not innocent within the split, neither were the soviets. That's why I have stated that the split was a tragedy and should have been avoided had both sides statesmen been competent enough. As for statistics on wealth over time, you can even see western articles framing this crackdown in "scary language." The trend is gradual, but it isn't nonexistent either. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (5 children) I think you’re reading more into my position than I have stated myself. Yes, Comrade, you’re right. It’s a very painful subject for me. To me, this is just like Solzhenitsyn’s The Gulag Archipelago, a work that slandered and humiliated the entire Soviet ideology. Both have fostered a distorted view of the Soviet era. They have given rise to all sorts of false theories that are published and circulated worldwide on a massive scale. Yet the Soviet soul is all I have left in life now. I am being bombed every night, but I live in the past—I live on memories... As for statistics on wealth over time, you can even see western articles framing this crackdown in “scary language.” The trend is gradual, but it isn’t nonexistent either. Ma crossed a red line; Xi decided that the oligarchs were becoming a threat to him... though he seems to have realized this rather late. We can certainly see Ma’s attempt to meddle in state affairs. People used to tell me that China has no oligarchs because Chinese billionaires don't interfere in government business. Yet, I highly doubt that was the first time Ma had meddled in state affairs—after all, he is a long-standing Communist Party member. To be honest, Comrade, what is actually happening in China is a closely guarded secret. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (4 children) Again, I think you're reading the situation through pessimistic hermeneutics, seeing what isn't actually there as present based on pessimism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (3 children) That’s an interesting way to put it. Are you referring to Cervantes and the windmills? My subjective pessimism stems from the fact that I’ve lost faith in my own future—my personal future. It’s just that, due to certain circumstances, I reached a point where I lost hope for what lies ahead. I’ve come to terms with that now. As for objective pessimism, that has nothing to do with my personal outlook. If you like, you could call it dialectics in its most extreme form... ))))) But seriously, Comrade, when was the last time you saw someone looking toward humanity's future with confidence and optimism—without any illusions? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (2 children) I'm referring to someone whose own pessimism causes them to see negativity where there is no actual basis for it. Your mind fills in the blanks, so to speak. Nobody is immune to this, I am an optimist, a revolutionary optimist. I have to hold onto hope to move forward, and do my best to temper that with sober and grounded analysis. Optimism is a revolutionary feeling, pessimism leads to nihilism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (1 child) I’m referring to someone whose own pessimism causes them to see negativity where there is no actual basis for it. Yes, you described that guy accurately. And that’s hardly surprising, because in this world, he has no choice but to be a sociopath. As for the idea that I might be talking nonsense—that’s unlikely; I have far too much practical life experience to spout complete rubbish. I’ve clawed my way to the top three times in my life, only to hit rock bottom again. Right now, I’m at the bottom once more. Would you be an optimist if you were in my shoes, Comrade? ... ))) And please, don’t tell me that I’m the one to blame for it all, rather than the way life is set up! I am an optimist, a revolutionary optimist. You just got lucky, Comrade! I'm happy for you. I was just like that once, too. I have to hold onto hope to move forward, and do my best to temper that with sober and grounded analysis. Yes, it's Dostoevsky: The most terrible thing is when a person has nowhere to go. This quote reflects one of Fyodor Dostoevsky's most haunting themes: the crushing despair of total alienation and the human necessity for purpose. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago I don't mean it as a moral condemnation, or an expectation to be "better," but as an explanation for why we are in disagreement on certain aspects. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (6 children) It's certainly true that mistakes in work and management exaggerated the impacts of natural disaster. This did result in making a naturally occurring famine worse, similar to what happened in the 1930s soviet famine. However, between 1949 and 1978, agriculture was dramatically overhauled and succeeded in achieving food security, ending famine in a region where famine was historically common (again, similar to the 1930s soviet famine). Was the Great Leap Forward a clear success? No, not necessarily. Over-enthusiasm and mistakes in work magnified the impact of weather disaster. Millions did die. However, these mistakes were rectified, and agriculture was successfully advanced. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (4 children) Similar to the soviet experience, Chinese workers are holding their heads high in new stages in socialist construction, with simiarly rapid levels of development. Anecdotes aside, this experience is common among both China and the USSR. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (1 child) You could be correct, but we would never know. If only people in the USSR back then had known what they stood to lose... permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago Agreed. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (2 replies) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (10 replies) load more comments (2 replies) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (2 replies) [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (15 children) Why don’t Chinese farmers receive old-age pensions? Where do their taxes and surpluses go? They do. To the pensions and also the massive modernising of rural villages from unconnected backwards villages with no electricity roads or plumbing to modern villages with electricity roads plumbing WiFi and public transit. Alongside the constant and ongoing targeted poverty alleviation. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 15 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (13 children) I recently watched a video on YouTube where a Russian blogger came to a Chinese village Comrade anecdotes are not worth much permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 13 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago* (11 children) "Individuals who participate in the pension insurance for urban and rural residents, who have reached the age of 60 and have paid a cumulative contribution for 15 years, and have not received the basic pension protection treatment stipulated by the state, can receive the pension insurance benefits of urban and rural residents on a monthly basis." Everyone receives a minimum pension but you cannot take the basic pension on top of other pensions. Comrade I wish I could say you appear intelligent and sincere but it would be a lie in both cases I am afraid to say. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 11 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (5 children) basic pension is 150-200 yuan. Wrong that's the national floor that is legally required but each local government adds their own contributions on top of this for example if you fall under the Shanghai local government you would receive 1500 per month as your basic pension. That was a real village, and real peasants. I didn't say it wasn't. I said it was an anecdote. Ukraine is 450 yuan, converted. That’s a paltry sum, you can’t live on it. Good thing cost of living in Chinese rural villages is tiny. In most especially the most rural ones you could likely get by on 50rmb a month especially with the community help that comes with village life. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (3 children) Personally, I don’t find it funny. Please look up what anecdote/anecdotal evidence means You could survive without a salary; everyone had their own garden and livestock or poultry. I know what that’s like. And I am from a rural Chinese village so I know even better than you. Can you imagine the gap between the city and the village? Thoughts of someone who hasn't studied theory or China. Cities obviously develop faster than rural areas. If only you could have seen mine and our neighbouring villages even 15 years ago not to mind 20 30 50 years ago compared to today. You wouldn't be spreading all of this bullshit about rural people not seeing any benefits permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (1 child) that video said that the rich regions are doing well, I am not from a rich region 🤣 You’re from Shanghai or thereabouts Not at all If you hadn’t spoken so harshly to me, I probably would have kept quiet And if you hadn't been spreading bullshit I wouldn't have felt the need to speak harshly. It would have been best if you had kept quiet instead of speaking nonsense. Comrade I think we should leave this here. Maybe we can talk again when you decide to educate yourself before speaking. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) [–] eldavi@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (3 children) your source is youtube; think on that. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (1 child) Please search what anecdote means before getting offended or assuming what it means Anecdotal evidence is evidence based on descriptions and reports of individual, personal experiences, or observations, collected in a non-systematic manner. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply)
[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago* (105 children) Regarding empiricism, I already explained that I interpreted your comment identifying yourself as an empiricist to be a declaration against dialectical materialism, and towards metaphysical materialism. After you explainend that you did not mean that, I better understood you. Again, Lenin wrote the book Materialism and Empirio-Criticism against vulgar empiricism, but empiricism itself as a method of observation combined with dialectical materialism is not a bad thing. That's why I chalk it up to language difference. As for China, your only sources seem to be vibes and personal anecdote regarding working hours. This is unacceptable for a socialist to use as ammo against a socialist state, and is plainly disappointing to see. I have hope in Russian communists to eventually bring a return of socialism to Eastern Europe, but seeing this kind of behavior is disappointing, and I'm glad it isn't an official party statement. As for the USSR, I was not calling it Utopian. I was specifically calling you a Utopian for your focus on "model-building." The USSR was no utopia, it was a real socialist state, just like China is today. What I was calling Utopian was your definition of socialism as "whatever the Soviets did," ie by measuring how socialist a country is by how closely it follows the Soviet example. The Soviet system was the socialist system suited to Eastern Europe in the conditions of the 20th century, it is not a permanent model to be emulated and perpetuated but was a living and evolving system. When I speak of Utopianism, I mean the type of socialist such as Robert Owen and Saint Simon, the pre-Marxist socialists Engels countered in Socialism: Utopian and Scientific. I truly believe you are getting mixed up and believing me to claim the USSR was Utopian, but that's not at all my point. I believe we are purely looking at a language barrier causing miscommunication. As for the difference between Chinese and Russian workers, Chinese workers control the state and thus direct the social surplus of society towards pro-social ends. The commanding heights of industry are publicly owned in China. Again, China is closer to a more complex and developed NEP than the modern Russian economy. Socialism is not simply "having social programs," otherwise the Nordics would be socialist. Instead, the class character of the state and the principal aspect of the economy are critical. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 105 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (87 children) Regarding the question of empiricism, we are in agreement. As I already said, I mistook your identity as an empiricist to be as against dialectical materialism, as that's how it's commonly understood. Regarding you talking about workers and their rights, no, you were not. You were talking about your perception of workers and their rights, which stands in stark contrast to hard data. This is why I said you rely on vibes and anecdote, which goes against empiricism and dialectical materialism. You fall into idealism when you mistake your individual experience as conclusive for the whole. As for your yearning for the past, I can also understand that, and have. That's why I pointed at this being a language barrier issue. My problem was that you implied soviet socialism as "true" socialism, implying that all non-soviet socialism is "false" socialism. This narrows down socialism not to a broader system characterized by proletarian control of the state, and collectivized production as the principal aspect of the economy, but instead treats socialism as a uniquely soviet experience that must be replicated as closely as possible to be "true." I am still of the belief that this is largely a language barrier problem. As for why the people of China have different social safety nets from the Soviet Union, these each have their own historical roots. China's social surplus largely goes towards advancing the productive forces, alleviating the urban/rural development gap, and building mass transit and infrastructure for use by the people. For all of the soviet union's incredible results, China has managed to develop even more quickly and thus transfer that into real material gains for 1.4 billion people. China started off even less developed than Russia, and managed to develop farther because of these tradeoffs. As wonderful as the Soviet Union was, it is sadly not here today, and thus we have to recognize that existing socialist countries have had to grapple with how to avoid a similar fate. China chose integration with the world economy, and prioritizing growth over social programs, in order to surpass the west and avoid the same trap of historical nihilism that set in with Khrushchev onward. For all of the ways China is lacking compared to the Soviets, their gamble appears to be paying off, and China is indeed advancing beyond the west and transitioning more towards a more socialized economy. As for your repeated belittlement of me as a "western Marxist," I detest it. I ignored it thus far, but you've continued to do so, treating me as a simpleton with no understanding of theory, history, or contemporary conditions. This is no way to act towards someone you've been calling "comrade." As far as "western Marxism" is concerned, I am not a part of that school of thought in the slightest. I may be a westerner, but I reject the standard Trotskyism and Eurocommunist schools of thought that had dominance in the west. Marxism-Leninism is seeing a revival, and I fall squarely into that school of thought. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 87 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (21 children) Yes, I largely agree. When I speak of "empiricism," the notion in English Marxist circles is often used to refer to "stupid materialism," as you called it, as it implies this materialism stops at empiricism and does not go into dialectics. That's why, even if we use empiricism, we do not identify as "empiricists" but "dialectical materialists." permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 21 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (19 children) Really, this is what I'm more getting at: Dialectics as living, many-sided knowledge (with the number of sides eternally increasing) — with an infinite number of shades of every approach and approximation to reality, with a philosophical system growing into a whole out of each shade — is immeasurably richer than “metaphysical” materialism, whose main problem is its inability to apply dialectics to the Bildertheorie, to the process and development of knowledge. Philosophical idealism is only nonsense from the standpoint of crude, simple, metaphysical materialism. From the standpoint of dialectical materialism, on the other hand, philosophical idealism is a one-sided and exaggerated development, inflating and distending one of the aspects or facets of knowledge into an absolute — divorced from matter and nature, deified. It is true that idealism is clerical obscurantism, but philosophical idealism is also, more correctly, a road to clerical obscurantism through one of the sides of the infinitely complex dialectical knowledge of man. V. I. Lenin permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 19 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (17 children) Subtitles do not work in English on my end, so unfortunately I cannot read it, and I do not speak Russian. Is there a text version I can run through a translator? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 17 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (14 children) There are certainly new contradictions that arose from Reform and Opening Up, but without it it is highly unlikely that China would be in the position it is today, with incredible advancements in the productive forces and a new, multipolar order. I don't believe this is a departure from classical Marxism at all, but a different application of the same classical Marxist economics. Again, the Soviet economy is not the definition of socialism, but one application of Marxist economics. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 14 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (12 children) I'm aware of the intense nostalgia faced by the post-soviet peoples. I myself would probably fall into despair seeing such a system ripped from under my feet. I know many in Russia travel to the DPRK as it more closely resembles the Soviet era, despite being its own unique form of juche socialism. However, as I stand outside of the post-soviet sphere, in a country founded on genocide and settler-colonialism that continued to prey upon the world, I also believe I can have a view of Chinese, Korean, and former Soviet socialism that recognizes them all as legitimate emancipatory efforts. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 12 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (10 children) I can certainly empathize. I have emotions, I'm a human being that feels anger and frustration, and can have that cloud my judgment. In that way, I have a "soul," though to be clear I do not believe in literal souls. However, I do not believe that emotional evaluations supercede rational ones, which is why I can say I would probably feel that way despite understanding it to be incorrect. As for juche, it's a Korean word. It largely means subjecthood, and can best be described as socialism with Korean characteristics. The party is not a privledged class in the DPRK, it's similar to how it was with the CPSU. Instead, the significance of juche comes from the understanding of man as a social being. It accepts Marxism-Leninism as fundamentally true, but that the soviet method could not be dogmatically copied by the DPRK and thus the conditions in Korea meant it had to adapt. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (4 children) Regarding car ownership, it's rising dramatically even in the last year. At one point it was far more limited, but the DPRK's economy is booming and trade with China is rising. As for apartments, I don't doubt that better apartments are made available to more critical workers and party members, this is similar to the USSR. The DPRK is constantly building new apartments, and as this happens the range with which people can get apartments widens. As for China's rural conditions, I'm well aware of the urban/rural gap, and this is thankfully something the CPC is focusing on improving. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments load more comments (4 replies) load more comments (5 replies) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (2 replies) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (62 children) To be clear, I don't believe you are a subjective idealist. I believe that your nostalgia for a once great and now lost USSR has colored your analysis, but I believe you in general are more of a materialist. My critique of certain points of yours as metaphysical or idealist is constrained to those positions. As for the progress in China, it's already happening at a breakneck pace. Conditions are improving in China faster than anywhere else in the world. So what if they made a deal with the western devil? The soviets did so too during the NEP, the CPC revisited that idea and modified it to their contemporary conditions. Any comparison between the snake Khrushchev and Deng Xiaoping has to be understood in that Khrushchev downplayed the entirety of socialist construction thus far, creating historical pessimism, while Deng made it clear that Mao and Stalin were to be upheld, and that class struggle was alive and must be carefully fought. The Soviet models of socialism were not idealist, nor subjective. It was materialist, worked well, and was well-suited to the Soviet Union's conditions. My issue was the idea that if, say, Bolivia's ongoing protests erupt into revolution, that they should copy some period of the Soviet Union's models of socialism, rather than learn from it and adapt to their own conditions. Bolivia's conditions are not the same as the USSR's. As for Trotsky being for the NEP and Stalin being against it, the NEP ending early ended up being fortuitous in preparing for World War II. Had World War II not been on the horizon, then perhaps extending it may have been correct, to help develop light industry more. In China's case, their socialist market economy was handled in such a way as to rely on largely de-industrialized economies, thus the risk of war was lower while in the USSR a war was always around the corner. As for "western Marxism," in the west it is used as a pejorative against Marxists that vulgarize Marx and Lenin, opposing socialist states. I am happy that you meant no offense by it, comrade. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 62 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (60 children) Stalin was correct about industrialization in the 1930s, especially considering the external conditions and environment the soviets found themselves in. The incredible rates of industrialization were unprecedented in history, and the fact that industrialization was completed is why the heroic Red Army was equipped and able to defeat the Nazi menace. Mao's economy was also fantastic at getting rapid growth. Under Mao, life expectancy similarly doubled, and production was rapidly expanding. At the same time, growth was unstable, and many areas were lagging behind. What the CPC identified as lacking was on the technological front, as well as the productive forces in general. Deng's advancements did not overturn what Mao had created, they built upon it. While Stalin's artels were effective, and I was unaware of many of their specifics as you have now pointed out to me (thank you, by the way), they still did not have the same impact of undermining western production and accelerating technology transfer that Reform and Opening Up brought. I do not care for the "soul" being tarnished, the fact of the matter is that western technology is no longer a monopoly to hold on the world and enforce unequal exchange, and now China is eroding the foundations of modern imperialism and neocolonialism. As for Khrushchev, I do not deny the benefits of the Krushchevkas and other advancements. However, I called Khrushchev a snake, because the snake had venom. In casting Stalin to hell, he created a sense of historical nihilism. His insistence that the USSR had abolished class was also shortsighted. These fundamental errors weakened the CPSU, and created the foundation for further errors in Gorbachev's reforms. The CPC watched and refused to make the same mistakes. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 60 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (58 children) The NEP was forged in the context of a highly undeveloped Russia, with a necessity to uplift agriculture as soon as possible so as to rapidly improve industry. The hatred of the people towards the NEPmen was understandable, but a clear reading of the historical material conditions reveals that it was necessary. As long as the socialist state holds the commanding heights of industry, and maintains a vigilant eye towards any organized political resistance from the petite bourgeoisie and bourgeoisie, markets can be a complementary part to the broader socialist system in developing underdeveloped areas. As for Mao's economy, it was again rapid industrialization. The problem with Mao's economy was that growth was uneven and unstable. Deng Xiaoping's reforms stabilized and slightly accelerated development. You'll get no argument from me that killing off the sparrows was wrong, but knowledge of agronomics was very low comparatively in China, and thus this mistake was not repeated as their knowledge advanced. I also am not a fan of the sino-soviet split. I do not believe Mao to have been blameless for it, however, Khrushchev's venom was correctly called out by Mao. Just as Mao wasn't permanently good, so too was Khrushchev not permanently bad, but there's good reason why Khrushchev's actions enabled Gorbachev's, which enabled Yeltsin's. Regarding technology transfer, certainly you can see that Chinese manufacturing is now more advanced than soviet manufacturing. In becoming the world's factory, they not only copied western tech, but totally owned the entire production process, and now are using it to advance and develop further. There is a qualitative difference between reverse engineering every single thing you copy, and being able to simply copy what you're already manufacturing. All in all, I understand that I am not Russian. I am indeed a westerner, damned as I may be. However, I truly believe that I can recognize both the Chinese and Soviet approaches as immensely positive forces, and hope that Russia returns to socialism within my lifetime. I long to see the western empire fall, and I am happy to see existing socialist countries advance forward into the future despite western flailing. The west has fallen into China's trap, and it is too late to leave. What we are witnessing is a cornered beast that has already lost, and is throwing a fit in the aftermath. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 58 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (24 children) I want to make it clear, I am aware the Soviets had incredible technology that the west did not even have, at least for a time. My point regarding China's Socialist Market Economy is that the process of technology transfer happens faster, more completely, and is now being phased out in favor of new Chinese tech that in many fields is advanced beyond the west. China's socialist market economy is not a permanent strategy, but instead a tactical decision in a longer battle, and that's why the birdcage is closing. As for the cornered beast, I am referring to America. Russia certainly has a real need to return to socialism, but America is the one on its way out. And yes, the hatred of America is real, even liberals are beginning to detest America (though of course they will repeat nonsense about communism until they turn blue in the face). The Empire is dying. It can certainly lash out violently, but it cannot and will not save itself. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 24 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (22 children) One could say that the reason the Soviets could not get the same western investment is because of the differences between the soviet system and the Chinese system. This is why it's best not to look at socialism like a static formula, but a science with options and tradeoffs. China's decision came with good and bad, the soviet decision came with good and bad, the correct decision is only truly identifiable in hindsight. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 22 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (19 children) Stalin also made errors and mistakes in socialist construction. You are overweighting Mao's mistakes and ignoring the successes under Mao, the establishment and solidification of socialism in China. The modern CPC has learned from both the successes and mistakes of both Stalin and Mao, while the CPSU decayed. As much as I wish the USSR had not dissolved, it did, and we are in the aftermath of such a tragedy. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 19 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (13 children) I believe you are mistaken, comrade. I am not actually Nikita Khrushchev nor am I Mao Zedong. Any "double-standard" you see with Deng Xiaoping's Reform and Opening Up as a result of problems with the late Mao era and the Gang of Four must be considered from that context, and not merely from one aspect of Mao's critique of Khrushchev's policy before the Gang of Four era. Regarding the Gang of Four, they were largely an extension of Mao's incorrect lines towards the end of his life, without most of his positive lines. Deng Xiaoping corrected the course for the new era of development, having inherited a basically industrialized economy but with widespread poverty and backwards technology. As for China outmaneuvering the west, I agree. This is pretty plainly what happened, despite what the west thought they could get away with, China maintained a dictatorship of the proletariat and maintained political control in the socialist market economy. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 13 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (9 children) It's widely acknowledged that the later Mao era and the era of the Gang of Four was filled with mistakes, and that Reform & Opening Up was a course correction. You may call this "double standards," but learning from mistakes when practice doesn't live up to expectations is how we grow. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 9 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (8 children) It’s widely acknowledged that the later Mao We’ve finally reached a consensus, Comrade! There’s just a slight discrepancy regarding the dates. You say the late Mao era began in 1968, whereas I maintain that the late Mao era you’re referring to actually began after Stalin’s death. Let me just clarify one more thing: from 1950 onwards—after suffering four strokes—Stalin didn’t really make any major decisions in the country. A triumvirate was formed—Malenkov, Beria, and Molotov—to prepare all key state projects, while Stalin merely affixed the final approval. So, in essence, Stalin had already died back in 1950. If we settle on a middle ground... say, 1959—would that work for you, Comrade?... )))) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (7 children) I don't think we are going to come to an agreement here. I wouldn't put a hard date on it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (6 children) Comrade, just so you know: if I use ")))", it means I'm joking. Of course, one shouldn't date events that way. I wanted to highlight the fact that you agreed with me on at least one thing!))) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (5 children) I understand )))! Just not used to seeing it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (4 children) When you see that ")))", you’ll realize you’re talking to a Russian or a Russian speaker. Okay, in that case, let’s talk about humor. Let’s talk about folklore. Folklore isn't about the state; it’s about the people. Folklore reflects the collective mindset of the people—I think you’d agree with that... Vox populi, vox Dei. Here’s a Soviet-era joke; these few lines capture the whole essence: "To launch a satellite, the Chinese formed a human pyramid a thousand stories high, but it collapsed because the guy on the three-hundred-and-seventeenth floor hadn't properly mastered Mao's Little Red Book." You’re an intelligent person, so you surely understand that my views were formed back in early childhood. It’s something ingrained at a subconscious level. So, please forgive me for my past stubbornness. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (3 children) I understand and can empathize with your views, I just have disagreements on certain aspects. These of course are colored by both of our upbringings, you within the Soviet Union and me entirely disconnected from socialism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (2 children) I very often fill gaps in my theoretical knowledge with personal experience—please forgive me for that! I would also like to note that the interpretation of Marx's theory in the USSR was somewhat simplified. For instance, the USSR acknowledged the existence of a primitive communal system but not the "Asiatic mode of production." I only heard about the latter recently. I would like to highlight this aspect; perhaps the key to what is currently happening in China lies there. Given that my knowledge of Marx's theory is superficial—and considering that Marx did not outline a precise model for constructing socialism (his work was largely a theoretical analysis of capitalism and its consequences)—it is worth noting that philosophy never sets concrete tasks for the individual. Regarding your view of Marx's philosophy, I can also point out an inaccuracy. You state that Marx envisioned the construction of socialism only within the context of developed capitalism, based on highly advanced productive forces. However, that is not entirely the case. In a letter to Vera Zasulich (dated March 8, 1881), https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%83%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%87,_%D0%92%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B0_%D0%98%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BD%D0%B0 Karl Marx stated that Russia could bypass the painful stage of capitalism. He emphasized that his theory was not a universal historical prescription and that the Russian peasant commune could, under certain conditions, become the nucleus of socialist development. Marx told Zasulich at the time that education was one of the most crucial factors in the possibility of bypassing the agonizing stage of capitalism. The bottom line is this: Lenin and Trotsky supported the NEP, whereas Stalin sided with "Zasulich." Stalin turned out to be entirely right, and he did not deviate from Marx's theory by even a millimeter. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] timdrake@lemmy.ml 1 point 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) In the preface to the 1882 Russian edition of the Manifesto, Marx and Engels say that the Russian commune could “pass directly to the higher form of Communist common ownership” only if the Russian Revolution (which he saw as inevitable, though it was not inevitable that it would "take[] place in time" (first draft of letter to Zasulich), and in the Letter to Otecestvenniye Zapisky he says that if Russia continues on its path, it will have lost this chance to skip the phase of capitalist development) is supported by wider revolution in the West. Otherwise, the Russian commune “must [] first pass through the same process of dissolution such as constitutes the historical evolution of the West.” There’s zero approval by Marx here for the notion of skipping the phase of private production/property in one country without a wider revolution. Marx told Zasulich at the time that education was one of the most crucial factors in the possibility of bypassing the agonizing stage of capitalism. No he didn’t. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago You misinterpret Marx's statement. I'm fully aware of Marx's views on the Russian commune movement, the problem is that you assume the Soviet model is what Marx was referring to, and that a more classically Marxist understanding of socialism was not what he meant. Marx was fairly explicit in what a socialist state would be, one where public ownership is principal and the working classes control the state. The Russian peasantry could have bypassed the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie and went straight to a dictatorship of the proletariat and peasantry, but they would not be able to avoid the problem of transitioning small ownership to large, industrialized ownership without the aid of markets. The fact of the matter is that private property existed de facto in the USSR. One of the mistakes of former socialism was merely trying to punish private ownership, rather than subordinate it to the public sector. Marx analyzed markets as being enormously useful in stitching together all of the small owners and building up productive forces, and public ownership as being superior at running large industry. Stalin ending the NEP early was a matter of survival, and was correct. China's conditions are different, and now occupies a more classically Marxist economy. It isn't even the same as the NEP, China was closer to the NEP under Mao, the socialist market economy of China is a more classically Marxist economy, with the ability to be so precisely because the imperialists cannot afford to decouple from them. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (3 replies) load more comments (5 replies) load more comments (2 replies) load more comments (1 reply) [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (30 children) Abolishing the NEP in the USSR and moving onto more planned economy ended up being beneficial. However, in the case of China, the NEP-inspired socialist market economy is the reason China is where they are today. New contradictions have arisen, which is of course a gamble, but with that came highly developed productive forces and tight interconnection with the global economy. This has allowed the PRC to reach where the USSR could not, and the developed productive forces are forming the basis of the newly emerging, more planned economy. As for Mao, China was horribly underdeveloped. Many of his mistakes were in dealing with such an environment, knowledge of agronomics was low and industrialization was non-existent. Under Mao, a solid socialist base was laid out, which managed to created the basis for the modern economy. As for the Sino-Soviet split, it's a tragedy, and was avoidable. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 30 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (12 children) I'm not denying that China has shortcomings. I believe you are magnifying them beyond their actual levels. As for Cheng Enfu's diagram, it essentially describes increasing planning and decreasing marketization over time. Marketization helps socialize production, and over time this is reigned in, creating a fully planned economy. As for Mao Zedong Thought, some aspects have applicability elsewhere. The Mass Line is a generally useful tactic, Protracted People's War can be useful in largely agrarian countries with high peasant populations and smaller urban centers, and so forth. It isn't universal, but Mao Zedong Thought works well for China and tactics from it have seen success in the global south, including in Vietnam. As for your insinuation that there are privledged people in China, yes, this is true. This is a side-effect of the socialist market economy. It's a tradeoff, an inefficiency that serves as a sort of price for the positive aspects of the socialist market economy. Excessive luxury is being cracked down on, and as China's socialist system develops, obscene wealth is being diminished while absolute wealth rises for the average worker. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 12 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (10 children) I never said Mao did not rely heavily on the USSR, so I will largely ignore those points as we do not really disagree. Regarding the Mass Line, it is essentially the tactic of taking policy from the people, and having the party reinterpret it and enact it accordingly. It is a way to avoid commandism and tailism, and has been applied by various ML or Maoist parties. Maoists tend to believe it is universal, while MLs tend to believe it is particular to certain conditions similar to China's experience. As for cracking down on excessive luxury, one example is the censorship of flaunting wealth on social media, and punishing those found guilty of corruption, taking bribes, etc. In China, the number of billionaires is decreasing, as the NEP-style economy is transitioning to a more advanced planned economy gradually. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (8 children) I'm aware that Mao believed that. That's why the narrative that Deng Xiaoping "backstabbed" socialism is false, Reform & Opening Up was a continuation of the economic basis laid out by Mao. As for cracking down on flaunting wealth, if your impression is already highly skeptical of China, it can seem that it's only to hide it from the public. A more comprehensive view of China, however, reveals it to not be mere rhetoric but the outcome of having both a socialist state and the contradictions rising from marketization. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (7 children) I’m aware that Mao believed that. Yes, exactly! That is the main argument—held by the Chinese themselves, by Western socialists (Trotskyists), and by the "new breed" of Western socialists (like you): that China fell out with the USSR because Khrushchev pursued a policy of "openness." But I keep telling you all that this isn't true, and it wasn't about Stalin! The reason was something else entirely. Relations between Khrushchev and Mao deteriorated completely after Mao asked the USSR to build a nuclear submarine fleet for China. Khrushchev agreed, but with the stipulation that the fleet would be a joint venture and based in Soviet Far Eastern ports. For some reason, Mao took great offense at this and refused. Now you can see just how brazen Mao was. These are all matters of public record; you can read about it yourself. I believe the reason for the rift was that, after Stalin's death, Mao considered himself the world's leading socialist—superior to the others and capable of handling everything on his own. He did not view Khrushchev as his equal. We saw how that turned out. As for cracking down on flaunting wealth, if your impression is already highly skeptical of China, it can seem that it’s only to hide it from the public. Yes, I know the statistics: wage growth in China is 4–6% annually. But I’m not convinced that wages are rising only for the poor—or that the 4–6% gains belonging to the middle and upper classes are being taken away and redistributed to China’s lower-income population. Show me the data on that trend, and then I’ll agree with you. I’d like to see statistics for these companies: JD.com: The revenue leader among China’s private enterprises, generating around 1.16 trillion yuan annually. Alibaba Group: JD.com’s main rival in the e-commerce market, showing steady growth driven by logistics and international expansion. ByteDance (owner of TikTok): The fastest-growing brand and largest private tech corporation. According to analyst reports, its brand value grew by 45% in a single year, reaching $153.5 billion. In cases where profits surged by 45% (an increase of 70 billion per year), exactly how much of that actually went to the poorer segments of the population? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (6 children) I think you're reading more into my position than I have stated myself. I understand that Mao was not innocent within the split, neither were the soviets. That's why I have stated that the split was a tragedy and should have been avoided had both sides statesmen been competent enough. As for statistics on wealth over time, you can even see western articles framing this crackdown in "scary language." The trend is gradual, but it isn't nonexistent either. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (5 children) I think you’re reading more into my position than I have stated myself. Yes, Comrade, you’re right. It’s a very painful subject for me. To me, this is just like Solzhenitsyn’s The Gulag Archipelago, a work that slandered and humiliated the entire Soviet ideology. Both have fostered a distorted view of the Soviet era. They have given rise to all sorts of false theories that are published and circulated worldwide on a massive scale. Yet the Soviet soul is all I have left in life now. I am being bombed every night, but I live in the past—I live on memories... As for statistics on wealth over time, you can even see western articles framing this crackdown in “scary language.” The trend is gradual, but it isn’t nonexistent either. Ma crossed a red line; Xi decided that the oligarchs were becoming a threat to him... though he seems to have realized this rather late. We can certainly see Ma’s attempt to meddle in state affairs. People used to tell me that China has no oligarchs because Chinese billionaires don't interfere in government business. Yet, I highly doubt that was the first time Ma had meddled in state affairs—after all, he is a long-standing Communist Party member. To be honest, Comrade, what is actually happening in China is a closely guarded secret. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (4 children) Again, I think you're reading the situation through pessimistic hermeneutics, seeing what isn't actually there as present based on pessimism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (3 children) That’s an interesting way to put it. Are you referring to Cervantes and the windmills? My subjective pessimism stems from the fact that I’ve lost faith in my own future—my personal future. It’s just that, due to certain circumstances, I reached a point where I lost hope for what lies ahead. I’ve come to terms with that now. As for objective pessimism, that has nothing to do with my personal outlook. If you like, you could call it dialectics in its most extreme form... ))))) But seriously, Comrade, when was the last time you saw someone looking toward humanity's future with confidence and optimism—without any illusions? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (2 children) I'm referring to someone whose own pessimism causes them to see negativity where there is no actual basis for it. Your mind fills in the blanks, so to speak. Nobody is immune to this, I am an optimist, a revolutionary optimist. I have to hold onto hope to move forward, and do my best to temper that with sober and grounded analysis. Optimism is a revolutionary feeling, pessimism leads to nihilism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (1 child) I’m referring to someone whose own pessimism causes them to see negativity where there is no actual basis for it. Yes, you described that guy accurately. And that’s hardly surprising, because in this world, he has no choice but to be a sociopath. As for the idea that I might be talking nonsense—that’s unlikely; I have far too much practical life experience to spout complete rubbish. I’ve clawed my way to the top three times in my life, only to hit rock bottom again. Right now, I’m at the bottom once more. Would you be an optimist if you were in my shoes, Comrade? ... ))) And please, don’t tell me that I’m the one to blame for it all, rather than the way life is set up! I am an optimist, a revolutionary optimist. You just got lucky, Comrade! I'm happy for you. I was just like that once, too. I have to hold onto hope to move forward, and do my best to temper that with sober and grounded analysis. Yes, it's Dostoevsky: The most terrible thing is when a person has nowhere to go. This quote reflects one of Fyodor Dostoevsky's most haunting themes: the crushing despair of total alienation and the human necessity for purpose. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago I don't mean it as a moral condemnation, or an expectation to be "better," but as an explanation for why we are in disagreement on certain aspects. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (6 children) It's certainly true that mistakes in work and management exaggerated the impacts of natural disaster. This did result in making a naturally occurring famine worse, similar to what happened in the 1930s soviet famine. However, between 1949 and 1978, agriculture was dramatically overhauled and succeeded in achieving food security, ending famine in a region where famine was historically common (again, similar to the 1930s soviet famine). Was the Great Leap Forward a clear success? No, not necessarily. Over-enthusiasm and mistakes in work magnified the impact of weather disaster. Millions did die. However, these mistakes were rectified, and agriculture was successfully advanced. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (4 children) Similar to the soviet experience, Chinese workers are holding their heads high in new stages in socialist construction, with simiarly rapid levels of development. Anecdotes aside, this experience is common among both China and the USSR. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (1 child) You could be correct, but we would never know. If only people in the USSR back then had known what they stood to lose... permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago Agreed. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (2 replies) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (10 replies) load more comments (2 replies) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (2 replies) [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (15 children) Why don’t Chinese farmers receive old-age pensions? Where do their taxes and surpluses go? They do. To the pensions and also the massive modernising of rural villages from unconnected backwards villages with no electricity roads or plumbing to modern villages with electricity roads plumbing WiFi and public transit. Alongside the constant and ongoing targeted poverty alleviation. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 15 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (13 children) I recently watched a video on YouTube where a Russian blogger came to a Chinese village Comrade anecdotes are not worth much permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 13 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago* (11 children) "Individuals who participate in the pension insurance for urban and rural residents, who have reached the age of 60 and have paid a cumulative contribution for 15 years, and have not received the basic pension protection treatment stipulated by the state, can receive the pension insurance benefits of urban and rural residents on a monthly basis." Everyone receives a minimum pension but you cannot take the basic pension on top of other pensions. Comrade I wish I could say you appear intelligent and sincere but it would be a lie in both cases I am afraid to say. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 11 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (5 children) basic pension is 150-200 yuan. Wrong that's the national floor that is legally required but each local government adds their own contributions on top of this for example if you fall under the Shanghai local government you would receive 1500 per month as your basic pension. That was a real village, and real peasants. I didn't say it wasn't. I said it was an anecdote. Ukraine is 450 yuan, converted. That’s a paltry sum, you can’t live on it. Good thing cost of living in Chinese rural villages is tiny. In most especially the most rural ones you could likely get by on 50rmb a month especially with the community help that comes with village life. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (3 children) Personally, I don’t find it funny. Please look up what anecdote/anecdotal evidence means You could survive without a salary; everyone had their own garden and livestock or poultry. I know what that’s like. And I am from a rural Chinese village so I know even better than you. Can you imagine the gap between the city and the village? Thoughts of someone who hasn't studied theory or China. Cities obviously develop faster than rural areas. If only you could have seen mine and our neighbouring villages even 15 years ago not to mind 20 30 50 years ago compared to today. You wouldn't be spreading all of this bullshit about rural people not seeing any benefits permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (1 child) that video said that the rich regions are doing well, I am not from a rich region 🤣 You’re from Shanghai or thereabouts Not at all If you hadn’t spoken so harshly to me, I probably would have kept quiet And if you hadn't been spreading bullshit I wouldn't have felt the need to speak harshly. It would have been best if you had kept quiet instead of speaking nonsense. Comrade I think we should leave this here. Maybe we can talk again when you decide to educate yourself before speaking. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) [–] eldavi@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (3 children) your source is youtube; think on that. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (1 child) Please search what anecdote means before getting offended or assuming what it means Anecdotal evidence is evidence based on descriptions and reports of individual, personal experiences, or observations, collected in a non-systematic manner. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (87 children) Regarding the question of empiricism, we are in agreement. As I already said, I mistook your identity as an empiricist to be as against dialectical materialism, as that's how it's commonly understood. Regarding you talking about workers and their rights, no, you were not. You were talking about your perception of workers and their rights, which stands in stark contrast to hard data. This is why I said you rely on vibes and anecdote, which goes against empiricism and dialectical materialism. You fall into idealism when you mistake your individual experience as conclusive for the whole. As for your yearning for the past, I can also understand that, and have. That's why I pointed at this being a language barrier issue. My problem was that you implied soviet socialism as "true" socialism, implying that all non-soviet socialism is "false" socialism. This narrows down socialism not to a broader system characterized by proletarian control of the state, and collectivized production as the principal aspect of the economy, but instead treats socialism as a uniquely soviet experience that must be replicated as closely as possible to be "true." I am still of the belief that this is largely a language barrier problem. As for why the people of China have different social safety nets from the Soviet Union, these each have their own historical roots. China's social surplus largely goes towards advancing the productive forces, alleviating the urban/rural development gap, and building mass transit and infrastructure for use by the people. For all of the soviet union's incredible results, China has managed to develop even more quickly and thus transfer that into real material gains for 1.4 billion people. China started off even less developed than Russia, and managed to develop farther because of these tradeoffs. As wonderful as the Soviet Union was, it is sadly not here today, and thus we have to recognize that existing socialist countries have had to grapple with how to avoid a similar fate. China chose integration with the world economy, and prioritizing growth over social programs, in order to surpass the west and avoid the same trap of historical nihilism that set in with Khrushchev onward. For all of the ways China is lacking compared to the Soviets, their gamble appears to be paying off, and China is indeed advancing beyond the west and transitioning more towards a more socialized economy. As for your repeated belittlement of me as a "western Marxist," I detest it. I ignored it thus far, but you've continued to do so, treating me as a simpleton with no understanding of theory, history, or contemporary conditions. This is no way to act towards someone you've been calling "comrade." As far as "western Marxism" is concerned, I am not a part of that school of thought in the slightest. I may be a westerner, but I reject the standard Trotskyism and Eurocommunist schools of thought that had dominance in the west. Marxism-Leninism is seeing a revival, and I fall squarely into that school of thought. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 87 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (21 children) Yes, I largely agree. When I speak of "empiricism," the notion in English Marxist circles is often used to refer to "stupid materialism," as you called it, as it implies this materialism stops at empiricism and does not go into dialectics. That's why, even if we use empiricism, we do not identify as "empiricists" but "dialectical materialists." permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 21 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (19 children) Really, this is what I'm more getting at: Dialectics as living, many-sided knowledge (with the number of sides eternally increasing) — with an infinite number of shades of every approach and approximation to reality, with a philosophical system growing into a whole out of each shade — is immeasurably richer than “metaphysical” materialism, whose main problem is its inability to apply dialectics to the Bildertheorie, to the process and development of knowledge. Philosophical idealism is only nonsense from the standpoint of crude, simple, metaphysical materialism. From the standpoint of dialectical materialism, on the other hand, philosophical idealism is a one-sided and exaggerated development, inflating and distending one of the aspects or facets of knowledge into an absolute — divorced from matter and nature, deified. It is true that idealism is clerical obscurantism, but philosophical idealism is also, more correctly, a road to clerical obscurantism through one of the sides of the infinitely complex dialectical knowledge of man. V. I. Lenin permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 19 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (17 children) Subtitles do not work in English on my end, so unfortunately I cannot read it, and I do not speak Russian. Is there a text version I can run through a translator? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 17 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (14 children) There are certainly new contradictions that arose from Reform and Opening Up, but without it it is highly unlikely that China would be in the position it is today, with incredible advancements in the productive forces and a new, multipolar order. I don't believe this is a departure from classical Marxism at all, but a different application of the same classical Marxist economics. Again, the Soviet economy is not the definition of socialism, but one application of Marxist economics. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 14 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (12 children) I'm aware of the intense nostalgia faced by the post-soviet peoples. I myself would probably fall into despair seeing such a system ripped from under my feet. I know many in Russia travel to the DPRK as it more closely resembles the Soviet era, despite being its own unique form of juche socialism. However, as I stand outside of the post-soviet sphere, in a country founded on genocide and settler-colonialism that continued to prey upon the world, I also believe I can have a view of Chinese, Korean, and former Soviet socialism that recognizes them all as legitimate emancipatory efforts. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 12 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (10 children) I can certainly empathize. I have emotions, I'm a human being that feels anger and frustration, and can have that cloud my judgment. In that way, I have a "soul," though to be clear I do not believe in literal souls. However, I do not believe that emotional evaluations supercede rational ones, which is why I can say I would probably feel that way despite understanding it to be incorrect. As for juche, it's a Korean word. It largely means subjecthood, and can best be described as socialism with Korean characteristics. The party is not a privledged class in the DPRK, it's similar to how it was with the CPSU. Instead, the significance of juche comes from the understanding of man as a social being. It accepts Marxism-Leninism as fundamentally true, but that the soviet method could not be dogmatically copied by the DPRK and thus the conditions in Korea meant it had to adapt. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (4 children) Regarding car ownership, it's rising dramatically even in the last year. At one point it was far more limited, but the DPRK's economy is booming and trade with China is rising. As for apartments, I don't doubt that better apartments are made available to more critical workers and party members, this is similar to the USSR. The DPRK is constantly building new apartments, and as this happens the range with which people can get apartments widens. As for China's rural conditions, I'm well aware of the urban/rural gap, and this is thankfully something the CPC is focusing on improving. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments load more comments (4 replies) load more comments (5 replies) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (2 replies) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (62 children) To be clear, I don't believe you are a subjective idealist. I believe that your nostalgia for a once great and now lost USSR has colored your analysis, but I believe you in general are more of a materialist. My critique of certain points of yours as metaphysical or idealist is constrained to those positions. As for the progress in China, it's already happening at a breakneck pace. Conditions are improving in China faster than anywhere else in the world. So what if they made a deal with the western devil? The soviets did so too during the NEP, the CPC revisited that idea and modified it to their contemporary conditions. Any comparison between the snake Khrushchev and Deng Xiaoping has to be understood in that Khrushchev downplayed the entirety of socialist construction thus far, creating historical pessimism, while Deng made it clear that Mao and Stalin were to be upheld, and that class struggle was alive and must be carefully fought. The Soviet models of socialism were not idealist, nor subjective. It was materialist, worked well, and was well-suited to the Soviet Union's conditions. My issue was the idea that if, say, Bolivia's ongoing protests erupt into revolution, that they should copy some period of the Soviet Union's models of socialism, rather than learn from it and adapt to their own conditions. Bolivia's conditions are not the same as the USSR's. As for Trotsky being for the NEP and Stalin being against it, the NEP ending early ended up being fortuitous in preparing for World War II. Had World War II not been on the horizon, then perhaps extending it may have been correct, to help develop light industry more. In China's case, their socialist market economy was handled in such a way as to rely on largely de-industrialized economies, thus the risk of war was lower while in the USSR a war was always around the corner. As for "western Marxism," in the west it is used as a pejorative against Marxists that vulgarize Marx and Lenin, opposing socialist states. I am happy that you meant no offense by it, comrade. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 62 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (60 children) Stalin was correct about industrialization in the 1930s, especially considering the external conditions and environment the soviets found themselves in. The incredible rates of industrialization were unprecedented in history, and the fact that industrialization was completed is why the heroic Red Army was equipped and able to defeat the Nazi menace. Mao's economy was also fantastic at getting rapid growth. Under Mao, life expectancy similarly doubled, and production was rapidly expanding. At the same time, growth was unstable, and many areas were lagging behind. What the CPC identified as lacking was on the technological front, as well as the productive forces in general. Deng's advancements did not overturn what Mao had created, they built upon it. While Stalin's artels were effective, and I was unaware of many of their specifics as you have now pointed out to me (thank you, by the way), they still did not have the same impact of undermining western production and accelerating technology transfer that Reform and Opening Up brought. I do not care for the "soul" being tarnished, the fact of the matter is that western technology is no longer a monopoly to hold on the world and enforce unequal exchange, and now China is eroding the foundations of modern imperialism and neocolonialism. As for Khrushchev, I do not deny the benefits of the Krushchevkas and other advancements. However, I called Khrushchev a snake, because the snake had venom. In casting Stalin to hell, he created a sense of historical nihilism. His insistence that the USSR had abolished class was also shortsighted. These fundamental errors weakened the CPSU, and created the foundation for further errors in Gorbachev's reforms. The CPC watched and refused to make the same mistakes. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 60 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (58 children) The NEP was forged in the context of a highly undeveloped Russia, with a necessity to uplift agriculture as soon as possible so as to rapidly improve industry. The hatred of the people towards the NEPmen was understandable, but a clear reading of the historical material conditions reveals that it was necessary. As long as the socialist state holds the commanding heights of industry, and maintains a vigilant eye towards any organized political resistance from the petite bourgeoisie and bourgeoisie, markets can be a complementary part to the broader socialist system in developing underdeveloped areas. As for Mao's economy, it was again rapid industrialization. The problem with Mao's economy was that growth was uneven and unstable. Deng Xiaoping's reforms stabilized and slightly accelerated development. You'll get no argument from me that killing off the sparrows was wrong, but knowledge of agronomics was very low comparatively in China, and thus this mistake was not repeated as their knowledge advanced. I also am not a fan of the sino-soviet split. I do not believe Mao to have been blameless for it, however, Khrushchev's venom was correctly called out by Mao. Just as Mao wasn't permanently good, so too was Khrushchev not permanently bad, but there's good reason why Khrushchev's actions enabled Gorbachev's, which enabled Yeltsin's. Regarding technology transfer, certainly you can see that Chinese manufacturing is now more advanced than soviet manufacturing. In becoming the world's factory, they not only copied western tech, but totally owned the entire production process, and now are using it to advance and develop further. There is a qualitative difference between reverse engineering every single thing you copy, and being able to simply copy what you're already manufacturing. All in all, I understand that I am not Russian. I am indeed a westerner, damned as I may be. However, I truly believe that I can recognize both the Chinese and Soviet approaches as immensely positive forces, and hope that Russia returns to socialism within my lifetime. I long to see the western empire fall, and I am happy to see existing socialist countries advance forward into the future despite western flailing. The west has fallen into China's trap, and it is too late to leave. What we are witnessing is a cornered beast that has already lost, and is throwing a fit in the aftermath. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 58 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (24 children) I want to make it clear, I am aware the Soviets had incredible technology that the west did not even have, at least for a time. My point regarding China's Socialist Market Economy is that the process of technology transfer happens faster, more completely, and is now being phased out in favor of new Chinese tech that in many fields is advanced beyond the west. China's socialist market economy is not a permanent strategy, but instead a tactical decision in a longer battle, and that's why the birdcage is closing. As for the cornered beast, I am referring to America. Russia certainly has a real need to return to socialism, but America is the one on its way out. And yes, the hatred of America is real, even liberals are beginning to detest America (though of course they will repeat nonsense about communism until they turn blue in the face). The Empire is dying. It can certainly lash out violently, but it cannot and will not save itself. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 24 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (22 children) One could say that the reason the Soviets could not get the same western investment is because of the differences between the soviet system and the Chinese system. This is why it's best not to look at socialism like a static formula, but a science with options and tradeoffs. China's decision came with good and bad, the soviet decision came with good and bad, the correct decision is only truly identifiable in hindsight. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 22 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (19 children) Stalin also made errors and mistakes in socialist construction. You are overweighting Mao's mistakes and ignoring the successes under Mao, the establishment and solidification of socialism in China. The modern CPC has learned from both the successes and mistakes of both Stalin and Mao, while the CPSU decayed. As much as I wish the USSR had not dissolved, it did, and we are in the aftermath of such a tragedy. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 19 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (13 children) I believe you are mistaken, comrade. I am not actually Nikita Khrushchev nor am I Mao Zedong. Any "double-standard" you see with Deng Xiaoping's Reform and Opening Up as a result of problems with the late Mao era and the Gang of Four must be considered from that context, and not merely from one aspect of Mao's critique of Khrushchev's policy before the Gang of Four era. Regarding the Gang of Four, they were largely an extension of Mao's incorrect lines towards the end of his life, without most of his positive lines. Deng Xiaoping corrected the course for the new era of development, having inherited a basically industrialized economy but with widespread poverty and backwards technology. As for China outmaneuvering the west, I agree. This is pretty plainly what happened, despite what the west thought they could get away with, China maintained a dictatorship of the proletariat and maintained political control in the socialist market economy. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 13 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (9 children) It's widely acknowledged that the later Mao era and the era of the Gang of Four was filled with mistakes, and that Reform & Opening Up was a course correction. You may call this "double standards," but learning from mistakes when practice doesn't live up to expectations is how we grow. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 9 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (8 children) It’s widely acknowledged that the later Mao We’ve finally reached a consensus, Comrade! There’s just a slight discrepancy regarding the dates. You say the late Mao era began in 1968, whereas I maintain that the late Mao era you’re referring to actually began after Stalin’s death. Let me just clarify one more thing: from 1950 onwards—after suffering four strokes—Stalin didn’t really make any major decisions in the country. A triumvirate was formed—Malenkov, Beria, and Molotov—to prepare all key state projects, while Stalin merely affixed the final approval. So, in essence, Stalin had already died back in 1950. If we settle on a middle ground... say, 1959—would that work for you, Comrade?... )))) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (7 children) I don't think we are going to come to an agreement here. I wouldn't put a hard date on it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (6 children) Comrade, just so you know: if I use ")))", it means I'm joking. Of course, one shouldn't date events that way. I wanted to highlight the fact that you agreed with me on at least one thing!))) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (5 children) I understand )))! Just not used to seeing it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (4 children) When you see that ")))", you’ll realize you’re talking to a Russian or a Russian speaker. Okay, in that case, let’s talk about humor. Let’s talk about folklore. Folklore isn't about the state; it’s about the people. Folklore reflects the collective mindset of the people—I think you’d agree with that... Vox populi, vox Dei. Here’s a Soviet-era joke; these few lines capture the whole essence: "To launch a satellite, the Chinese formed a human pyramid a thousand stories high, but it collapsed because the guy on the three-hundred-and-seventeenth floor hadn't properly mastered Mao's Little Red Book." You’re an intelligent person, so you surely understand that my views were formed back in early childhood. It’s something ingrained at a subconscious level. So, please forgive me for my past stubbornness. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (3 children) I understand and can empathize with your views, I just have disagreements on certain aspects. These of course are colored by both of our upbringings, you within the Soviet Union and me entirely disconnected from socialism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (2 children) I very often fill gaps in my theoretical knowledge with personal experience—please forgive me for that! I would also like to note that the interpretation of Marx's theory in the USSR was somewhat simplified. For instance, the USSR acknowledged the existence of a primitive communal system but not the "Asiatic mode of production." I only heard about the latter recently. I would like to highlight this aspect; perhaps the key to what is currently happening in China lies there. Given that my knowledge of Marx's theory is superficial—and considering that Marx did not outline a precise model for constructing socialism (his work was largely a theoretical analysis of capitalism and its consequences)—it is worth noting that philosophy never sets concrete tasks for the individual. Regarding your view of Marx's philosophy, I can also point out an inaccuracy. You state that Marx envisioned the construction of socialism only within the context of developed capitalism, based on highly advanced productive forces. However, that is not entirely the case. In a letter to Vera Zasulich (dated March 8, 1881), https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%83%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%87,_%D0%92%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B0_%D0%98%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BD%D0%B0 Karl Marx stated that Russia could bypass the painful stage of capitalism. He emphasized that his theory was not a universal historical prescription and that the Russian peasant commune could, under certain conditions, become the nucleus of socialist development. Marx told Zasulich at the time that education was one of the most crucial factors in the possibility of bypassing the agonizing stage of capitalism. The bottom line is this: Lenin and Trotsky supported the NEP, whereas Stalin sided with "Zasulich." Stalin turned out to be entirely right, and he did not deviate from Marx's theory by even a millimeter. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] timdrake@lemmy.ml 1 point 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) In the preface to the 1882 Russian edition of the Manifesto, Marx and Engels say that the Russian commune could “pass directly to the higher form of Communist common ownership” only if the Russian Revolution (which he saw as inevitable, though it was not inevitable that it would "take[] place in time" (first draft of letter to Zasulich), and in the Letter to Otecestvenniye Zapisky he says that if Russia continues on its path, it will have lost this chance to skip the phase of capitalist development) is supported by wider revolution in the West. Otherwise, the Russian commune “must [] first pass through the same process of dissolution such as constitutes the historical evolution of the West.” There’s zero approval by Marx here for the notion of skipping the phase of private production/property in one country without a wider revolution. Marx told Zasulich at the time that education was one of the most crucial factors in the possibility of bypassing the agonizing stage of capitalism. No he didn’t. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago You misinterpret Marx's statement. I'm fully aware of Marx's views on the Russian commune movement, the problem is that you assume the Soviet model is what Marx was referring to, and that a more classically Marxist understanding of socialism was not what he meant. Marx was fairly explicit in what a socialist state would be, one where public ownership is principal and the working classes control the state. The Russian peasantry could have bypassed the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie and went straight to a dictatorship of the proletariat and peasantry, but they would not be able to avoid the problem of transitioning small ownership to large, industrialized ownership without the aid of markets. The fact of the matter is that private property existed de facto in the USSR. One of the mistakes of former socialism was merely trying to punish private ownership, rather than subordinate it to the public sector. Marx analyzed markets as being enormously useful in stitching together all of the small owners and building up productive forces, and public ownership as being superior at running large industry. Stalin ending the NEP early was a matter of survival, and was correct. China's conditions are different, and now occupies a more classically Marxist economy. It isn't even the same as the NEP, China was closer to the NEP under Mao, the socialist market economy of China is a more classically Marxist economy, with the ability to be so precisely because the imperialists cannot afford to decouple from them. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (3 replies) load more comments (5 replies) load more comments (2 replies) load more comments (1 reply) [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (30 children) Abolishing the NEP in the USSR and moving onto more planned economy ended up being beneficial. However, in the case of China, the NEP-inspired socialist market economy is the reason China is where they are today. New contradictions have arisen, which is of course a gamble, but with that came highly developed productive forces and tight interconnection with the global economy. This has allowed the PRC to reach where the USSR could not, and the developed productive forces are forming the basis of the newly emerging, more planned economy. As for Mao, China was horribly underdeveloped. Many of his mistakes were in dealing with such an environment, knowledge of agronomics was low and industrialization was non-existent. Under Mao, a solid socialist base was laid out, which managed to created the basis for the modern economy. As for the Sino-Soviet split, it's a tragedy, and was avoidable. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 30 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (12 children) I'm not denying that China has shortcomings. I believe you are magnifying them beyond their actual levels. As for Cheng Enfu's diagram, it essentially describes increasing planning and decreasing marketization over time. Marketization helps socialize production, and over time this is reigned in, creating a fully planned economy. As for Mao Zedong Thought, some aspects have applicability elsewhere. The Mass Line is a generally useful tactic, Protracted People's War can be useful in largely agrarian countries with high peasant populations and smaller urban centers, and so forth. It isn't universal, but Mao Zedong Thought works well for China and tactics from it have seen success in the global south, including in Vietnam. As for your insinuation that there are privledged people in China, yes, this is true. This is a side-effect of the socialist market economy. It's a tradeoff, an inefficiency that serves as a sort of price for the positive aspects of the socialist market economy. Excessive luxury is being cracked down on, and as China's socialist system develops, obscene wealth is being diminished while absolute wealth rises for the average worker. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 12 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (10 children) I never said Mao did not rely heavily on the USSR, so I will largely ignore those points as we do not really disagree. Regarding the Mass Line, it is essentially the tactic of taking policy from the people, and having the party reinterpret it and enact it accordingly. It is a way to avoid commandism and tailism, and has been applied by various ML or Maoist parties. Maoists tend to believe it is universal, while MLs tend to believe it is particular to certain conditions similar to China's experience. As for cracking down on excessive luxury, one example is the censorship of flaunting wealth on social media, and punishing those found guilty of corruption, taking bribes, etc. In China, the number of billionaires is decreasing, as the NEP-style economy is transitioning to a more advanced planned economy gradually. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (8 children) I'm aware that Mao believed that. That's why the narrative that Deng Xiaoping "backstabbed" socialism is false, Reform & Opening Up was a continuation of the economic basis laid out by Mao. As for cracking down on flaunting wealth, if your impression is already highly skeptical of China, it can seem that it's only to hide it from the public. A more comprehensive view of China, however, reveals it to not be mere rhetoric but the outcome of having both a socialist state and the contradictions rising from marketization. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (7 children) I’m aware that Mao believed that. Yes, exactly! That is the main argument—held by the Chinese themselves, by Western socialists (Trotskyists), and by the "new breed" of Western socialists (like you): that China fell out with the USSR because Khrushchev pursued a policy of "openness." But I keep telling you all that this isn't true, and it wasn't about Stalin! The reason was something else entirely. Relations between Khrushchev and Mao deteriorated completely after Mao asked the USSR to build a nuclear submarine fleet for China. Khrushchev agreed, but with the stipulation that the fleet would be a joint venture and based in Soviet Far Eastern ports. For some reason, Mao took great offense at this and refused. Now you can see just how brazen Mao was. These are all matters of public record; you can read about it yourself. I believe the reason for the rift was that, after Stalin's death, Mao considered himself the world's leading socialist—superior to the others and capable of handling everything on his own. He did not view Khrushchev as his equal. We saw how that turned out. As for cracking down on flaunting wealth, if your impression is already highly skeptical of China, it can seem that it’s only to hide it from the public. Yes, I know the statistics: wage growth in China is 4–6% annually. But I’m not convinced that wages are rising only for the poor—or that the 4–6% gains belonging to the middle and upper classes are being taken away and redistributed to China’s lower-income population. Show me the data on that trend, and then I’ll agree with you. I’d like to see statistics for these companies: JD.com: The revenue leader among China’s private enterprises, generating around 1.16 trillion yuan annually. Alibaba Group: JD.com’s main rival in the e-commerce market, showing steady growth driven by logistics and international expansion. ByteDance (owner of TikTok): The fastest-growing brand and largest private tech corporation. According to analyst reports, its brand value grew by 45% in a single year, reaching $153.5 billion. In cases where profits surged by 45% (an increase of 70 billion per year), exactly how much of that actually went to the poorer segments of the population? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (6 children) I think you're reading more into my position than I have stated myself. I understand that Mao was not innocent within the split, neither were the soviets. That's why I have stated that the split was a tragedy and should have been avoided had both sides statesmen been competent enough. As for statistics on wealth over time, you can even see western articles framing this crackdown in "scary language." The trend is gradual, but it isn't nonexistent either. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (5 children) I think you’re reading more into my position than I have stated myself. Yes, Comrade, you’re right. It’s a very painful subject for me. To me, this is just like Solzhenitsyn’s The Gulag Archipelago, a work that slandered and humiliated the entire Soviet ideology. Both have fostered a distorted view of the Soviet era. They have given rise to all sorts of false theories that are published and circulated worldwide on a massive scale. Yet the Soviet soul is all I have left in life now. I am being bombed every night, but I live in the past—I live on memories... As for statistics on wealth over time, you can even see western articles framing this crackdown in “scary language.” The trend is gradual, but it isn’t nonexistent either. Ma crossed a red line; Xi decided that the oligarchs were becoming a threat to him... though he seems to have realized this rather late. We can certainly see Ma’s attempt to meddle in state affairs. People used to tell me that China has no oligarchs because Chinese billionaires don't interfere in government business. Yet, I highly doubt that was the first time Ma had meddled in state affairs—after all, he is a long-standing Communist Party member. To be honest, Comrade, what is actually happening in China is a closely guarded secret. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (4 children) Again, I think you're reading the situation through pessimistic hermeneutics, seeing what isn't actually there as present based on pessimism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (3 children) That’s an interesting way to put it. Are you referring to Cervantes and the windmills? My subjective pessimism stems from the fact that I’ve lost faith in my own future—my personal future. It’s just that, due to certain circumstances, I reached a point where I lost hope for what lies ahead. I’ve come to terms with that now. As for objective pessimism, that has nothing to do with my personal outlook. If you like, you could call it dialectics in its most extreme form... ))))) But seriously, Comrade, when was the last time you saw someone looking toward humanity's future with confidence and optimism—without any illusions? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (2 children) I'm referring to someone whose own pessimism causes them to see negativity where there is no actual basis for it. Your mind fills in the blanks, so to speak. Nobody is immune to this, I am an optimist, a revolutionary optimist. I have to hold onto hope to move forward, and do my best to temper that with sober and grounded analysis. Optimism is a revolutionary feeling, pessimism leads to nihilism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (1 child) I’m referring to someone whose own pessimism causes them to see negativity where there is no actual basis for it. Yes, you described that guy accurately. And that’s hardly surprising, because in this world, he has no choice but to be a sociopath. As for the idea that I might be talking nonsense—that’s unlikely; I have far too much practical life experience to spout complete rubbish. I’ve clawed my way to the top three times in my life, only to hit rock bottom again. Right now, I’m at the bottom once more. Would you be an optimist if you were in my shoes, Comrade? ... ))) And please, don’t tell me that I’m the one to blame for it all, rather than the way life is set up! I am an optimist, a revolutionary optimist. You just got lucky, Comrade! I'm happy for you. I was just like that once, too. I have to hold onto hope to move forward, and do my best to temper that with sober and grounded analysis. Yes, it's Dostoevsky: The most terrible thing is when a person has nowhere to go. This quote reflects one of Fyodor Dostoevsky's most haunting themes: the crushing despair of total alienation and the human necessity for purpose. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago I don't mean it as a moral condemnation, or an expectation to be "better," but as an explanation for why we are in disagreement on certain aspects. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (6 children) It's certainly true that mistakes in work and management exaggerated the impacts of natural disaster. This did result in making a naturally occurring famine worse, similar to what happened in the 1930s soviet famine. However, between 1949 and 1978, agriculture was dramatically overhauled and succeeded in achieving food security, ending famine in a region where famine was historically common (again, similar to the 1930s soviet famine). Was the Great Leap Forward a clear success? No, not necessarily. Over-enthusiasm and mistakes in work magnified the impact of weather disaster. Millions did die. However, these mistakes were rectified, and agriculture was successfully advanced. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (4 children) Similar to the soviet experience, Chinese workers are holding their heads high in new stages in socialist construction, with simiarly rapid levels of development. Anecdotes aside, this experience is common among both China and the USSR. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (1 child) You could be correct, but we would never know. If only people in the USSR back then had known what they stood to lose... permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago Agreed. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (2 replies) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (10 replies) load more comments (2 replies) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (2 replies) [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (15 children) Why don’t Chinese farmers receive old-age pensions? Where do their taxes and surpluses go? They do. To the pensions and also the massive modernising of rural villages from unconnected backwards villages with no electricity roads or plumbing to modern villages with electricity roads plumbing WiFi and public transit. Alongside the constant and ongoing targeted poverty alleviation. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 15 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (13 children) I recently watched a video on YouTube where a Russian blogger came to a Chinese village Comrade anecdotes are not worth much permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 13 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago* (11 children) "Individuals who participate in the pension insurance for urban and rural residents, who have reached the age of 60 and have paid a cumulative contribution for 15 years, and have not received the basic pension protection treatment stipulated by the state, can receive the pension insurance benefits of urban and rural residents on a monthly basis." Everyone receives a minimum pension but you cannot take the basic pension on top of other pensions. Comrade I wish I could say you appear intelligent and sincere but it would be a lie in both cases I am afraid to say. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 11 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (5 children) basic pension is 150-200 yuan. Wrong that's the national floor that is legally required but each local government adds their own contributions on top of this for example if you fall under the Shanghai local government you would receive 1500 per month as your basic pension. That was a real village, and real peasants. I didn't say it wasn't. I said it was an anecdote. Ukraine is 450 yuan, converted. That’s a paltry sum, you can’t live on it. Good thing cost of living in Chinese rural villages is tiny. In most especially the most rural ones you could likely get by on 50rmb a month especially with the community help that comes with village life. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (3 children) Personally, I don’t find it funny. Please look up what anecdote/anecdotal evidence means You could survive without a salary; everyone had their own garden and livestock or poultry. I know what that’s like. And I am from a rural Chinese village so I know even better than you. Can you imagine the gap between the city and the village? Thoughts of someone who hasn't studied theory or China. Cities obviously develop faster than rural areas. If only you could have seen mine and our neighbouring villages even 15 years ago not to mind 20 30 50 years ago compared to today. You wouldn't be spreading all of this bullshit about rural people not seeing any benefits permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (1 child) that video said that the rich regions are doing well, I am not from a rich region 🤣 You’re from Shanghai or thereabouts Not at all If you hadn’t spoken so harshly to me, I probably would have kept quiet And if you hadn't been spreading bullshit I wouldn't have felt the need to speak harshly. It would have been best if you had kept quiet instead of speaking nonsense. Comrade I think we should leave this here. Maybe we can talk again when you decide to educate yourself before speaking. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) [–] eldavi@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (3 children) your source is youtube; think on that. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (1 child) Please search what anecdote means before getting offended or assuming what it means Anecdotal evidence is evidence based on descriptions and reports of individual, personal experiences, or observations, collected in a non-systematic manner. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply)
[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (87 children) Regarding the question of empiricism, we are in agreement. As I already said, I mistook your identity as an empiricist to be as against dialectical materialism, as that's how it's commonly understood. Regarding you talking about workers and their rights, no, you were not. You were talking about your perception of workers and their rights, which stands in stark contrast to hard data. This is why I said you rely on vibes and anecdote, which goes against empiricism and dialectical materialism. You fall into idealism when you mistake your individual experience as conclusive for the whole. As for your yearning for the past, I can also understand that, and have. That's why I pointed at this being a language barrier issue. My problem was that you implied soviet socialism as "true" socialism, implying that all non-soviet socialism is "false" socialism. This narrows down socialism not to a broader system characterized by proletarian control of the state, and collectivized production as the principal aspect of the economy, but instead treats socialism as a uniquely soviet experience that must be replicated as closely as possible to be "true." I am still of the belief that this is largely a language barrier problem. As for why the people of China have different social safety nets from the Soviet Union, these each have their own historical roots. China's social surplus largely goes towards advancing the productive forces, alleviating the urban/rural development gap, and building mass transit and infrastructure for use by the people. For all of the soviet union's incredible results, China has managed to develop even more quickly and thus transfer that into real material gains for 1.4 billion people. China started off even less developed than Russia, and managed to develop farther because of these tradeoffs. As wonderful as the Soviet Union was, it is sadly not here today, and thus we have to recognize that existing socialist countries have had to grapple with how to avoid a similar fate. China chose integration with the world economy, and prioritizing growth over social programs, in order to surpass the west and avoid the same trap of historical nihilism that set in with Khrushchev onward. For all of the ways China is lacking compared to the Soviets, their gamble appears to be paying off, and China is indeed advancing beyond the west and transitioning more towards a more socialized economy. As for your repeated belittlement of me as a "western Marxist," I detest it. I ignored it thus far, but you've continued to do so, treating me as a simpleton with no understanding of theory, history, or contemporary conditions. This is no way to act towards someone you've been calling "comrade." As far as "western Marxism" is concerned, I am not a part of that school of thought in the slightest. I may be a westerner, but I reject the standard Trotskyism and Eurocommunist schools of thought that had dominance in the west. Marxism-Leninism is seeing a revival, and I fall squarely into that school of thought. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 87 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (21 children) Yes, I largely agree. When I speak of "empiricism," the notion in English Marxist circles is often used to refer to "stupid materialism," as you called it, as it implies this materialism stops at empiricism and does not go into dialectics. That's why, even if we use empiricism, we do not identify as "empiricists" but "dialectical materialists." permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 21 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (19 children) Really, this is what I'm more getting at: Dialectics as living, many-sided knowledge (with the number of sides eternally increasing) — with an infinite number of shades of every approach and approximation to reality, with a philosophical system growing into a whole out of each shade — is immeasurably richer than “metaphysical” materialism, whose main problem is its inability to apply dialectics to the Bildertheorie, to the process and development of knowledge. Philosophical idealism is only nonsense from the standpoint of crude, simple, metaphysical materialism. From the standpoint of dialectical materialism, on the other hand, philosophical idealism is a one-sided and exaggerated development, inflating and distending one of the aspects or facets of knowledge into an absolute — divorced from matter and nature, deified. It is true that idealism is clerical obscurantism, but philosophical idealism is also, more correctly, a road to clerical obscurantism through one of the sides of the infinitely complex dialectical knowledge of man. V. I. Lenin permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 19 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (17 children) Subtitles do not work in English on my end, so unfortunately I cannot read it, and I do not speak Russian. Is there a text version I can run through a translator? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 17 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (14 children) There are certainly new contradictions that arose from Reform and Opening Up, but without it it is highly unlikely that China would be in the position it is today, with incredible advancements in the productive forces and a new, multipolar order. I don't believe this is a departure from classical Marxism at all, but a different application of the same classical Marxist economics. Again, the Soviet economy is not the definition of socialism, but one application of Marxist economics. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 14 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (12 children) I'm aware of the intense nostalgia faced by the post-soviet peoples. I myself would probably fall into despair seeing such a system ripped from under my feet. I know many in Russia travel to the DPRK as it more closely resembles the Soviet era, despite being its own unique form of juche socialism. However, as I stand outside of the post-soviet sphere, in a country founded on genocide and settler-colonialism that continued to prey upon the world, I also believe I can have a view of Chinese, Korean, and former Soviet socialism that recognizes them all as legitimate emancipatory efforts. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 12 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (10 children) I can certainly empathize. I have emotions, I'm a human being that feels anger and frustration, and can have that cloud my judgment. In that way, I have a "soul," though to be clear I do not believe in literal souls. However, I do not believe that emotional evaluations supercede rational ones, which is why I can say I would probably feel that way despite understanding it to be incorrect. As for juche, it's a Korean word. It largely means subjecthood, and can best be described as socialism with Korean characteristics. The party is not a privledged class in the DPRK, it's similar to how it was with the CPSU. Instead, the significance of juche comes from the understanding of man as a social being. It accepts Marxism-Leninism as fundamentally true, but that the soviet method could not be dogmatically copied by the DPRK and thus the conditions in Korea meant it had to adapt. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (4 children) Regarding car ownership, it's rising dramatically even in the last year. At one point it was far more limited, but the DPRK's economy is booming and trade with China is rising. As for apartments, I don't doubt that better apartments are made available to more critical workers and party members, this is similar to the USSR. The DPRK is constantly building new apartments, and as this happens the range with which people can get apartments widens. As for China's rural conditions, I'm well aware of the urban/rural gap, and this is thankfully something the CPC is focusing on improving. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments load more comments (4 replies) load more comments (5 replies) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (2 replies) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (62 children) To be clear, I don't believe you are a subjective idealist. I believe that your nostalgia for a once great and now lost USSR has colored your analysis, but I believe you in general are more of a materialist. My critique of certain points of yours as metaphysical or idealist is constrained to those positions. As for the progress in China, it's already happening at a breakneck pace. Conditions are improving in China faster than anywhere else in the world. So what if they made a deal with the western devil? The soviets did so too during the NEP, the CPC revisited that idea and modified it to their contemporary conditions. Any comparison between the snake Khrushchev and Deng Xiaoping has to be understood in that Khrushchev downplayed the entirety of socialist construction thus far, creating historical pessimism, while Deng made it clear that Mao and Stalin were to be upheld, and that class struggle was alive and must be carefully fought. The Soviet models of socialism were not idealist, nor subjective. It was materialist, worked well, and was well-suited to the Soviet Union's conditions. My issue was the idea that if, say, Bolivia's ongoing protests erupt into revolution, that they should copy some period of the Soviet Union's models of socialism, rather than learn from it and adapt to their own conditions. Bolivia's conditions are not the same as the USSR's. As for Trotsky being for the NEP and Stalin being against it, the NEP ending early ended up being fortuitous in preparing for World War II. Had World War II not been on the horizon, then perhaps extending it may have been correct, to help develop light industry more. In China's case, their socialist market economy was handled in such a way as to rely on largely de-industrialized economies, thus the risk of war was lower while in the USSR a war was always around the corner. As for "western Marxism," in the west it is used as a pejorative against Marxists that vulgarize Marx and Lenin, opposing socialist states. I am happy that you meant no offense by it, comrade. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 62 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (60 children) Stalin was correct about industrialization in the 1930s, especially considering the external conditions and environment the soviets found themselves in. The incredible rates of industrialization were unprecedented in history, and the fact that industrialization was completed is why the heroic Red Army was equipped and able to defeat the Nazi menace. Mao's economy was also fantastic at getting rapid growth. Under Mao, life expectancy similarly doubled, and production was rapidly expanding. At the same time, growth was unstable, and many areas were lagging behind. What the CPC identified as lacking was on the technological front, as well as the productive forces in general. Deng's advancements did not overturn what Mao had created, they built upon it. While Stalin's artels were effective, and I was unaware of many of their specifics as you have now pointed out to me (thank you, by the way), they still did not have the same impact of undermining western production and accelerating technology transfer that Reform and Opening Up brought. I do not care for the "soul" being tarnished, the fact of the matter is that western technology is no longer a monopoly to hold on the world and enforce unequal exchange, and now China is eroding the foundations of modern imperialism and neocolonialism. As for Khrushchev, I do not deny the benefits of the Krushchevkas and other advancements. However, I called Khrushchev a snake, because the snake had venom. In casting Stalin to hell, he created a sense of historical nihilism. His insistence that the USSR had abolished class was also shortsighted. These fundamental errors weakened the CPSU, and created the foundation for further errors in Gorbachev's reforms. The CPC watched and refused to make the same mistakes. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 60 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (58 children) The NEP was forged in the context of a highly undeveloped Russia, with a necessity to uplift agriculture as soon as possible so as to rapidly improve industry. The hatred of the people towards the NEPmen was understandable, but a clear reading of the historical material conditions reveals that it was necessary. As long as the socialist state holds the commanding heights of industry, and maintains a vigilant eye towards any organized political resistance from the petite bourgeoisie and bourgeoisie, markets can be a complementary part to the broader socialist system in developing underdeveloped areas. As for Mao's economy, it was again rapid industrialization. The problem with Mao's economy was that growth was uneven and unstable. Deng Xiaoping's reforms stabilized and slightly accelerated development. You'll get no argument from me that killing off the sparrows was wrong, but knowledge of agronomics was very low comparatively in China, and thus this mistake was not repeated as their knowledge advanced. I also am not a fan of the sino-soviet split. I do not believe Mao to have been blameless for it, however, Khrushchev's venom was correctly called out by Mao. Just as Mao wasn't permanently good, so too was Khrushchev not permanently bad, but there's good reason why Khrushchev's actions enabled Gorbachev's, which enabled Yeltsin's. Regarding technology transfer, certainly you can see that Chinese manufacturing is now more advanced than soviet manufacturing. In becoming the world's factory, they not only copied western tech, but totally owned the entire production process, and now are using it to advance and develop further. There is a qualitative difference between reverse engineering every single thing you copy, and being able to simply copy what you're already manufacturing. All in all, I understand that I am not Russian. I am indeed a westerner, damned as I may be. However, I truly believe that I can recognize both the Chinese and Soviet approaches as immensely positive forces, and hope that Russia returns to socialism within my lifetime. I long to see the western empire fall, and I am happy to see existing socialist countries advance forward into the future despite western flailing. The west has fallen into China's trap, and it is too late to leave. What we are witnessing is a cornered beast that has already lost, and is throwing a fit in the aftermath. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 58 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (24 children) I want to make it clear, I am aware the Soviets had incredible technology that the west did not even have, at least for a time. My point regarding China's Socialist Market Economy is that the process of technology transfer happens faster, more completely, and is now being phased out in favor of new Chinese tech that in many fields is advanced beyond the west. China's socialist market economy is not a permanent strategy, but instead a tactical decision in a longer battle, and that's why the birdcage is closing. As for the cornered beast, I am referring to America. Russia certainly has a real need to return to socialism, but America is the one on its way out. And yes, the hatred of America is real, even liberals are beginning to detest America (though of course they will repeat nonsense about communism until they turn blue in the face). The Empire is dying. It can certainly lash out violently, but it cannot and will not save itself. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 24 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (22 children) One could say that the reason the Soviets could not get the same western investment is because of the differences between the soviet system and the Chinese system. This is why it's best not to look at socialism like a static formula, but a science with options and tradeoffs. China's decision came with good and bad, the soviet decision came with good and bad, the correct decision is only truly identifiable in hindsight. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 22 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (19 children) Stalin also made errors and mistakes in socialist construction. You are overweighting Mao's mistakes and ignoring the successes under Mao, the establishment and solidification of socialism in China. The modern CPC has learned from both the successes and mistakes of both Stalin and Mao, while the CPSU decayed. As much as I wish the USSR had not dissolved, it did, and we are in the aftermath of such a tragedy. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 19 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (13 children) I believe you are mistaken, comrade. I am not actually Nikita Khrushchev nor am I Mao Zedong. Any "double-standard" you see with Deng Xiaoping's Reform and Opening Up as a result of problems with the late Mao era and the Gang of Four must be considered from that context, and not merely from one aspect of Mao's critique of Khrushchev's policy before the Gang of Four era. Regarding the Gang of Four, they were largely an extension of Mao's incorrect lines towards the end of his life, without most of his positive lines. Deng Xiaoping corrected the course for the new era of development, having inherited a basically industrialized economy but with widespread poverty and backwards technology. As for China outmaneuvering the west, I agree. This is pretty plainly what happened, despite what the west thought they could get away with, China maintained a dictatorship of the proletariat and maintained political control in the socialist market economy. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 13 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (9 children) It's widely acknowledged that the later Mao era and the era of the Gang of Four was filled with mistakes, and that Reform & Opening Up was a course correction. You may call this "double standards," but learning from mistakes when practice doesn't live up to expectations is how we grow. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 9 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (8 children) It’s widely acknowledged that the later Mao We’ve finally reached a consensus, Comrade! There’s just a slight discrepancy regarding the dates. You say the late Mao era began in 1968, whereas I maintain that the late Mao era you’re referring to actually began after Stalin’s death. Let me just clarify one more thing: from 1950 onwards—after suffering four strokes—Stalin didn’t really make any major decisions in the country. A triumvirate was formed—Malenkov, Beria, and Molotov—to prepare all key state projects, while Stalin merely affixed the final approval. So, in essence, Stalin had already died back in 1950. If we settle on a middle ground... say, 1959—would that work for you, Comrade?... )))) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (7 children) I don't think we are going to come to an agreement here. I wouldn't put a hard date on it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (6 children) Comrade, just so you know: if I use ")))", it means I'm joking. Of course, one shouldn't date events that way. I wanted to highlight the fact that you agreed with me on at least one thing!))) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (5 children) I understand )))! Just not used to seeing it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (4 children) When you see that ")))", you’ll realize you’re talking to a Russian or a Russian speaker. Okay, in that case, let’s talk about humor. Let’s talk about folklore. Folklore isn't about the state; it’s about the people. Folklore reflects the collective mindset of the people—I think you’d agree with that... Vox populi, vox Dei. Here’s a Soviet-era joke; these few lines capture the whole essence: "To launch a satellite, the Chinese formed a human pyramid a thousand stories high, but it collapsed because the guy on the three-hundred-and-seventeenth floor hadn't properly mastered Mao's Little Red Book." You’re an intelligent person, so you surely understand that my views were formed back in early childhood. It’s something ingrained at a subconscious level. So, please forgive me for my past stubbornness. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (3 children) I understand and can empathize with your views, I just have disagreements on certain aspects. These of course are colored by both of our upbringings, you within the Soviet Union and me entirely disconnected from socialism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (2 children) I very often fill gaps in my theoretical knowledge with personal experience—please forgive me for that! I would also like to note that the interpretation of Marx's theory in the USSR was somewhat simplified. For instance, the USSR acknowledged the existence of a primitive communal system but not the "Asiatic mode of production." I only heard about the latter recently. I would like to highlight this aspect; perhaps the key to what is currently happening in China lies there. Given that my knowledge of Marx's theory is superficial—and considering that Marx did not outline a precise model for constructing socialism (his work was largely a theoretical analysis of capitalism and its consequences)—it is worth noting that philosophy never sets concrete tasks for the individual. Regarding your view of Marx's philosophy, I can also point out an inaccuracy. You state that Marx envisioned the construction of socialism only within the context of developed capitalism, based on highly advanced productive forces. However, that is not entirely the case. In a letter to Vera Zasulich (dated March 8, 1881), https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%83%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%87,_%D0%92%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B0_%D0%98%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BD%D0%B0 Karl Marx stated that Russia could bypass the painful stage of capitalism. He emphasized that his theory was not a universal historical prescription and that the Russian peasant commune could, under certain conditions, become the nucleus of socialist development. Marx told Zasulich at the time that education was one of the most crucial factors in the possibility of bypassing the agonizing stage of capitalism. The bottom line is this: Lenin and Trotsky supported the NEP, whereas Stalin sided with "Zasulich." Stalin turned out to be entirely right, and he did not deviate from Marx's theory by even a millimeter. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] timdrake@lemmy.ml 1 point 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) In the preface to the 1882 Russian edition of the Manifesto, Marx and Engels say that the Russian commune could “pass directly to the higher form of Communist common ownership” only if the Russian Revolution (which he saw as inevitable, though it was not inevitable that it would "take[] place in time" (first draft of letter to Zasulich), and in the Letter to Otecestvenniye Zapisky he says that if Russia continues on its path, it will have lost this chance to skip the phase of capitalist development) is supported by wider revolution in the West. Otherwise, the Russian commune “must [] first pass through the same process of dissolution such as constitutes the historical evolution of the West.” There’s zero approval by Marx here for the notion of skipping the phase of private production/property in one country without a wider revolution. Marx told Zasulich at the time that education was one of the most crucial factors in the possibility of bypassing the agonizing stage of capitalism. No he didn’t. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago You misinterpret Marx's statement. I'm fully aware of Marx's views on the Russian commune movement, the problem is that you assume the Soviet model is what Marx was referring to, and that a more classically Marxist understanding of socialism was not what he meant. Marx was fairly explicit in what a socialist state would be, one where public ownership is principal and the working classes control the state. The Russian peasantry could have bypassed the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie and went straight to a dictatorship of the proletariat and peasantry, but they would not be able to avoid the problem of transitioning small ownership to large, industrialized ownership without the aid of markets. The fact of the matter is that private property existed de facto in the USSR. One of the mistakes of former socialism was merely trying to punish private ownership, rather than subordinate it to the public sector. Marx analyzed markets as being enormously useful in stitching together all of the small owners and building up productive forces, and public ownership as being superior at running large industry. Stalin ending the NEP early was a matter of survival, and was correct. China's conditions are different, and now occupies a more classically Marxist economy. It isn't even the same as the NEP, China was closer to the NEP under Mao, the socialist market economy of China is a more classically Marxist economy, with the ability to be so precisely because the imperialists cannot afford to decouple from them. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (3 replies) load more comments (5 replies) load more comments (2 replies) load more comments (1 reply) [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (30 children) Abolishing the NEP in the USSR and moving onto more planned economy ended up being beneficial. However, in the case of China, the NEP-inspired socialist market economy is the reason China is where they are today. New contradictions have arisen, which is of course a gamble, but with that came highly developed productive forces and tight interconnection with the global economy. This has allowed the PRC to reach where the USSR could not, and the developed productive forces are forming the basis of the newly emerging, more planned economy. As for Mao, China was horribly underdeveloped. Many of his mistakes were in dealing with such an environment, knowledge of agronomics was low and industrialization was non-existent. Under Mao, a solid socialist base was laid out, which managed to created the basis for the modern economy. As for the Sino-Soviet split, it's a tragedy, and was avoidable. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 30 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (12 children) I'm not denying that China has shortcomings. I believe you are magnifying them beyond their actual levels. As for Cheng Enfu's diagram, it essentially describes increasing planning and decreasing marketization over time. Marketization helps socialize production, and over time this is reigned in, creating a fully planned economy. As for Mao Zedong Thought, some aspects have applicability elsewhere. The Mass Line is a generally useful tactic, Protracted People's War can be useful in largely agrarian countries with high peasant populations and smaller urban centers, and so forth. It isn't universal, but Mao Zedong Thought works well for China and tactics from it have seen success in the global south, including in Vietnam. As for your insinuation that there are privledged people in China, yes, this is true. This is a side-effect of the socialist market economy. It's a tradeoff, an inefficiency that serves as a sort of price for the positive aspects of the socialist market economy. Excessive luxury is being cracked down on, and as China's socialist system develops, obscene wealth is being diminished while absolute wealth rises for the average worker. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 12 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (10 children) I never said Mao did not rely heavily on the USSR, so I will largely ignore those points as we do not really disagree. Regarding the Mass Line, it is essentially the tactic of taking policy from the people, and having the party reinterpret it and enact it accordingly. It is a way to avoid commandism and tailism, and has been applied by various ML or Maoist parties. Maoists tend to believe it is universal, while MLs tend to believe it is particular to certain conditions similar to China's experience. As for cracking down on excessive luxury, one example is the censorship of flaunting wealth on social media, and punishing those found guilty of corruption, taking bribes, etc. In China, the number of billionaires is decreasing, as the NEP-style economy is transitioning to a more advanced planned economy gradually. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (8 children) I'm aware that Mao believed that. That's why the narrative that Deng Xiaoping "backstabbed" socialism is false, Reform & Opening Up was a continuation of the economic basis laid out by Mao. As for cracking down on flaunting wealth, if your impression is already highly skeptical of China, it can seem that it's only to hide it from the public. A more comprehensive view of China, however, reveals it to not be mere rhetoric but the outcome of having both a socialist state and the contradictions rising from marketization. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (7 children) I’m aware that Mao believed that. Yes, exactly! That is the main argument—held by the Chinese themselves, by Western socialists (Trotskyists), and by the "new breed" of Western socialists (like you): that China fell out with the USSR because Khrushchev pursued a policy of "openness." But I keep telling you all that this isn't true, and it wasn't about Stalin! The reason was something else entirely. Relations between Khrushchev and Mao deteriorated completely after Mao asked the USSR to build a nuclear submarine fleet for China. Khrushchev agreed, but with the stipulation that the fleet would be a joint venture and based in Soviet Far Eastern ports. For some reason, Mao took great offense at this and refused. Now you can see just how brazen Mao was. These are all matters of public record; you can read about it yourself. I believe the reason for the rift was that, after Stalin's death, Mao considered himself the world's leading socialist—superior to the others and capable of handling everything on his own. He did not view Khrushchev as his equal. We saw how that turned out. As for cracking down on flaunting wealth, if your impression is already highly skeptical of China, it can seem that it’s only to hide it from the public. Yes, I know the statistics: wage growth in China is 4–6% annually. But I’m not convinced that wages are rising only for the poor—or that the 4–6% gains belonging to the middle and upper classes are being taken away and redistributed to China’s lower-income population. Show me the data on that trend, and then I’ll agree with you. I’d like to see statistics for these companies: JD.com: The revenue leader among China’s private enterprises, generating around 1.16 trillion yuan annually. Alibaba Group: JD.com’s main rival in the e-commerce market, showing steady growth driven by logistics and international expansion. ByteDance (owner of TikTok): The fastest-growing brand and largest private tech corporation. According to analyst reports, its brand value grew by 45% in a single year, reaching $153.5 billion. In cases where profits surged by 45% (an increase of 70 billion per year), exactly how much of that actually went to the poorer segments of the population? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (6 children) I think you're reading more into my position than I have stated myself. I understand that Mao was not innocent within the split, neither were the soviets. That's why I have stated that the split was a tragedy and should have been avoided had both sides statesmen been competent enough. As for statistics on wealth over time, you can even see western articles framing this crackdown in "scary language." The trend is gradual, but it isn't nonexistent either. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (5 children) I think you’re reading more into my position than I have stated myself. Yes, Comrade, you’re right. It’s a very painful subject for me. To me, this is just like Solzhenitsyn’s The Gulag Archipelago, a work that slandered and humiliated the entire Soviet ideology. Both have fostered a distorted view of the Soviet era. They have given rise to all sorts of false theories that are published and circulated worldwide on a massive scale. Yet the Soviet soul is all I have left in life now. I am being bombed every night, but I live in the past—I live on memories... As for statistics on wealth over time, you can even see western articles framing this crackdown in “scary language.” The trend is gradual, but it isn’t nonexistent either. Ma crossed a red line; Xi decided that the oligarchs were becoming a threat to him... though he seems to have realized this rather late. We can certainly see Ma’s attempt to meddle in state affairs. People used to tell me that China has no oligarchs because Chinese billionaires don't interfere in government business. Yet, I highly doubt that was the first time Ma had meddled in state affairs—after all, he is a long-standing Communist Party member. To be honest, Comrade, what is actually happening in China is a closely guarded secret. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (4 children) Again, I think you're reading the situation through pessimistic hermeneutics, seeing what isn't actually there as present based on pessimism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (3 children) That’s an interesting way to put it. Are you referring to Cervantes and the windmills? My subjective pessimism stems from the fact that I’ve lost faith in my own future—my personal future. It’s just that, due to certain circumstances, I reached a point where I lost hope for what lies ahead. I’ve come to terms with that now. As for objective pessimism, that has nothing to do with my personal outlook. If you like, you could call it dialectics in its most extreme form... ))))) But seriously, Comrade, when was the last time you saw someone looking toward humanity's future with confidence and optimism—without any illusions? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (2 children) I'm referring to someone whose own pessimism causes them to see negativity where there is no actual basis for it. Your mind fills in the blanks, so to speak. Nobody is immune to this, I am an optimist, a revolutionary optimist. I have to hold onto hope to move forward, and do my best to temper that with sober and grounded analysis. Optimism is a revolutionary feeling, pessimism leads to nihilism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (1 child) I’m referring to someone whose own pessimism causes them to see negativity where there is no actual basis for it. Yes, you described that guy accurately. And that’s hardly surprising, because in this world, he has no choice but to be a sociopath. As for the idea that I might be talking nonsense—that’s unlikely; I have far too much practical life experience to spout complete rubbish. I’ve clawed my way to the top three times in my life, only to hit rock bottom again. Right now, I’m at the bottom once more. Would you be an optimist if you were in my shoes, Comrade? ... ))) And please, don’t tell me that I’m the one to blame for it all, rather than the way life is set up! I am an optimist, a revolutionary optimist. You just got lucky, Comrade! I'm happy for you. I was just like that once, too. I have to hold onto hope to move forward, and do my best to temper that with sober and grounded analysis. Yes, it's Dostoevsky: The most terrible thing is when a person has nowhere to go. This quote reflects one of Fyodor Dostoevsky's most haunting themes: the crushing despair of total alienation and the human necessity for purpose. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago I don't mean it as a moral condemnation, or an expectation to be "better," but as an explanation for why we are in disagreement on certain aspects. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (6 children) It's certainly true that mistakes in work and management exaggerated the impacts of natural disaster. This did result in making a naturally occurring famine worse, similar to what happened in the 1930s soviet famine. However, between 1949 and 1978, agriculture was dramatically overhauled and succeeded in achieving food security, ending famine in a region where famine was historically common (again, similar to the 1930s soviet famine). Was the Great Leap Forward a clear success? No, not necessarily. Over-enthusiasm and mistakes in work magnified the impact of weather disaster. Millions did die. However, these mistakes were rectified, and agriculture was successfully advanced. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (4 children) Similar to the soviet experience, Chinese workers are holding their heads high in new stages in socialist construction, with simiarly rapid levels of development. Anecdotes aside, this experience is common among both China and the USSR. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (1 child) You could be correct, but we would never know. If only people in the USSR back then had known what they stood to lose... permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago Agreed. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (2 replies) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (10 replies) load more comments (2 replies) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (2 replies)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (21 children) Yes, I largely agree. When I speak of "empiricism," the notion in English Marxist circles is often used to refer to "stupid materialism," as you called it, as it implies this materialism stops at empiricism and does not go into dialectics. That's why, even if we use empiricism, we do not identify as "empiricists" but "dialectical materialists." permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 21 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (19 children) Really, this is what I'm more getting at: Dialectics as living, many-sided knowledge (with the number of sides eternally increasing) — with an infinite number of shades of every approach and approximation to reality, with a philosophical system growing into a whole out of each shade — is immeasurably richer than “metaphysical” materialism, whose main problem is its inability to apply dialectics to the Bildertheorie, to the process and development of knowledge. Philosophical idealism is only nonsense from the standpoint of crude, simple, metaphysical materialism. From the standpoint of dialectical materialism, on the other hand, philosophical idealism is a one-sided and exaggerated development, inflating and distending one of the aspects or facets of knowledge into an absolute — divorced from matter and nature, deified. It is true that idealism is clerical obscurantism, but philosophical idealism is also, more correctly, a road to clerical obscurantism through one of the sides of the infinitely complex dialectical knowledge of man. V. I. Lenin permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 19 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (17 children) Subtitles do not work in English on my end, so unfortunately I cannot read it, and I do not speak Russian. Is there a text version I can run through a translator? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 17 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (14 children) There are certainly new contradictions that arose from Reform and Opening Up, but without it it is highly unlikely that China would be in the position it is today, with incredible advancements in the productive forces and a new, multipolar order. I don't believe this is a departure from classical Marxism at all, but a different application of the same classical Marxist economics. Again, the Soviet economy is not the definition of socialism, but one application of Marxist economics. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 14 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (12 children) I'm aware of the intense nostalgia faced by the post-soviet peoples. I myself would probably fall into despair seeing such a system ripped from under my feet. I know many in Russia travel to the DPRK as it more closely resembles the Soviet era, despite being its own unique form of juche socialism. However, as I stand outside of the post-soviet sphere, in a country founded on genocide and settler-colonialism that continued to prey upon the world, I also believe I can have a view of Chinese, Korean, and former Soviet socialism that recognizes them all as legitimate emancipatory efforts. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 12 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (10 children) I can certainly empathize. I have emotions, I'm a human being that feels anger and frustration, and can have that cloud my judgment. In that way, I have a "soul," though to be clear I do not believe in literal souls. However, I do not believe that emotional evaluations supercede rational ones, which is why I can say I would probably feel that way despite understanding it to be incorrect. As for juche, it's a Korean word. It largely means subjecthood, and can best be described as socialism with Korean characteristics. The party is not a privledged class in the DPRK, it's similar to how it was with the CPSU. Instead, the significance of juche comes from the understanding of man as a social being. It accepts Marxism-Leninism as fundamentally true, but that the soviet method could not be dogmatically copied by the DPRK and thus the conditions in Korea meant it had to adapt. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (4 children) Regarding car ownership, it's rising dramatically even in the last year. At one point it was far more limited, but the DPRK's economy is booming and trade with China is rising. As for apartments, I don't doubt that better apartments are made available to more critical workers and party members, this is similar to the USSR. The DPRK is constantly building new apartments, and as this happens the range with which people can get apartments widens. As for China's rural conditions, I'm well aware of the urban/rural gap, and this is thankfully something the CPC is focusing on improving. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments load more comments (4 replies) load more comments (5 replies) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (2 replies) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply)
[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (21 children) Yes, I largely agree. When I speak of "empiricism," the notion in English Marxist circles is often used to refer to "stupid materialism," as you called it, as it implies this materialism stops at empiricism and does not go into dialectics. That's why, even if we use empiricism, we do not identify as "empiricists" but "dialectical materialists." permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 21 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (19 children) Really, this is what I'm more getting at: Dialectics as living, many-sided knowledge (with the number of sides eternally increasing) — with an infinite number of shades of every approach and approximation to reality, with a philosophical system growing into a whole out of each shade — is immeasurably richer than “metaphysical” materialism, whose main problem is its inability to apply dialectics to the Bildertheorie, to the process and development of knowledge. Philosophical idealism is only nonsense from the standpoint of crude, simple, metaphysical materialism. From the standpoint of dialectical materialism, on the other hand, philosophical idealism is a one-sided and exaggerated development, inflating and distending one of the aspects or facets of knowledge into an absolute — divorced from matter and nature, deified. It is true that idealism is clerical obscurantism, but philosophical idealism is also, more correctly, a road to clerical obscurantism through one of the sides of the infinitely complex dialectical knowledge of man. V. I. Lenin permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 19 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (17 children) Subtitles do not work in English on my end, so unfortunately I cannot read it, and I do not speak Russian. Is there a text version I can run through a translator? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 17 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (14 children) There are certainly new contradictions that arose from Reform and Opening Up, but without it it is highly unlikely that China would be in the position it is today, with incredible advancements in the productive forces and a new, multipolar order. I don't believe this is a departure from classical Marxism at all, but a different application of the same classical Marxist economics. Again, the Soviet economy is not the definition of socialism, but one application of Marxist economics. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 14 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (12 children) I'm aware of the intense nostalgia faced by the post-soviet peoples. I myself would probably fall into despair seeing such a system ripped from under my feet. I know many in Russia travel to the DPRK as it more closely resembles the Soviet era, despite being its own unique form of juche socialism. However, as I stand outside of the post-soviet sphere, in a country founded on genocide and settler-colonialism that continued to prey upon the world, I also believe I can have a view of Chinese, Korean, and former Soviet socialism that recognizes them all as legitimate emancipatory efforts. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 12 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (10 children) I can certainly empathize. I have emotions, I'm a human being that feels anger and frustration, and can have that cloud my judgment. In that way, I have a "soul," though to be clear I do not believe in literal souls. However, I do not believe that emotional evaluations supercede rational ones, which is why I can say I would probably feel that way despite understanding it to be incorrect. As for juche, it's a Korean word. It largely means subjecthood, and can best be described as socialism with Korean characteristics. The party is not a privledged class in the DPRK, it's similar to how it was with the CPSU. Instead, the significance of juche comes from the understanding of man as a social being. It accepts Marxism-Leninism as fundamentally true, but that the soviet method could not be dogmatically copied by the DPRK and thus the conditions in Korea meant it had to adapt. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (4 children) Regarding car ownership, it's rising dramatically even in the last year. At one point it was far more limited, but the DPRK's economy is booming and trade with China is rising. As for apartments, I don't doubt that better apartments are made available to more critical workers and party members, this is similar to the USSR. The DPRK is constantly building new apartments, and as this happens the range with which people can get apartments widens. As for China's rural conditions, I'm well aware of the urban/rural gap, and this is thankfully something the CPC is focusing on improving. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments load more comments (4 replies) load more comments (5 replies) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (2 replies) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (19 children) Really, this is what I'm more getting at: Dialectics as living, many-sided knowledge (with the number of sides eternally increasing) — with an infinite number of shades of every approach and approximation to reality, with a philosophical system growing into a whole out of each shade — is immeasurably richer than “metaphysical” materialism, whose main problem is its inability to apply dialectics to the Bildertheorie, to the process and development of knowledge. Philosophical idealism is only nonsense from the standpoint of crude, simple, metaphysical materialism. From the standpoint of dialectical materialism, on the other hand, philosophical idealism is a one-sided and exaggerated development, inflating and distending one of the aspects or facets of knowledge into an absolute — divorced from matter and nature, deified. It is true that idealism is clerical obscurantism, but philosophical idealism is also, more correctly, a road to clerical obscurantism through one of the sides of the infinitely complex dialectical knowledge of man. V. I. Lenin permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 19 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (17 children) Subtitles do not work in English on my end, so unfortunately I cannot read it, and I do not speak Russian. Is there a text version I can run through a translator? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 17 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (14 children) There are certainly new contradictions that arose from Reform and Opening Up, but without it it is highly unlikely that China would be in the position it is today, with incredible advancements in the productive forces and a new, multipolar order. I don't believe this is a departure from classical Marxism at all, but a different application of the same classical Marxist economics. Again, the Soviet economy is not the definition of socialism, but one application of Marxist economics. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 14 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (12 children) I'm aware of the intense nostalgia faced by the post-soviet peoples. I myself would probably fall into despair seeing such a system ripped from under my feet. I know many in Russia travel to the DPRK as it more closely resembles the Soviet era, despite being its own unique form of juche socialism. However, as I stand outside of the post-soviet sphere, in a country founded on genocide and settler-colonialism that continued to prey upon the world, I also believe I can have a view of Chinese, Korean, and former Soviet socialism that recognizes them all as legitimate emancipatory efforts. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 12 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (10 children) I can certainly empathize. I have emotions, I'm a human being that feels anger and frustration, and can have that cloud my judgment. In that way, I have a "soul," though to be clear I do not believe in literal souls. However, I do not believe that emotional evaluations supercede rational ones, which is why I can say I would probably feel that way despite understanding it to be incorrect. As for juche, it's a Korean word. It largely means subjecthood, and can best be described as socialism with Korean characteristics. The party is not a privledged class in the DPRK, it's similar to how it was with the CPSU. Instead, the significance of juche comes from the understanding of man as a social being. It accepts Marxism-Leninism as fundamentally true, but that the soviet method could not be dogmatically copied by the DPRK and thus the conditions in Korea meant it had to adapt. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (4 children) Regarding car ownership, it's rising dramatically even in the last year. At one point it was far more limited, but the DPRK's economy is booming and trade with China is rising. As for apartments, I don't doubt that better apartments are made available to more critical workers and party members, this is similar to the USSR. The DPRK is constantly building new apartments, and as this happens the range with which people can get apartments widens. As for China's rural conditions, I'm well aware of the urban/rural gap, and this is thankfully something the CPC is focusing on improving. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments load more comments (4 replies) load more comments (5 replies) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (2 replies) load more comments (1 reply)
[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (19 children) Really, this is what I'm more getting at: Dialectics as living, many-sided knowledge (with the number of sides eternally increasing) — with an infinite number of shades of every approach and approximation to reality, with a philosophical system growing into a whole out of each shade — is immeasurably richer than “metaphysical” materialism, whose main problem is its inability to apply dialectics to the Bildertheorie, to the process and development of knowledge. Philosophical idealism is only nonsense from the standpoint of crude, simple, metaphysical materialism. From the standpoint of dialectical materialism, on the other hand, philosophical idealism is a one-sided and exaggerated development, inflating and distending one of the aspects or facets of knowledge into an absolute — divorced from matter and nature, deified. It is true that idealism is clerical obscurantism, but philosophical idealism is also, more correctly, a road to clerical obscurantism through one of the sides of the infinitely complex dialectical knowledge of man. V. I. Lenin permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 19 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (17 children) Subtitles do not work in English on my end, so unfortunately I cannot read it, and I do not speak Russian. Is there a text version I can run through a translator? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 17 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (14 children) There are certainly new contradictions that arose from Reform and Opening Up, but without it it is highly unlikely that China would be in the position it is today, with incredible advancements in the productive forces and a new, multipolar order. I don't believe this is a departure from classical Marxism at all, but a different application of the same classical Marxist economics. Again, the Soviet economy is not the definition of socialism, but one application of Marxist economics. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 14 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (12 children) I'm aware of the intense nostalgia faced by the post-soviet peoples. I myself would probably fall into despair seeing such a system ripped from under my feet. I know many in Russia travel to the DPRK as it more closely resembles the Soviet era, despite being its own unique form of juche socialism. However, as I stand outside of the post-soviet sphere, in a country founded on genocide and settler-colonialism that continued to prey upon the world, I also believe I can have a view of Chinese, Korean, and former Soviet socialism that recognizes them all as legitimate emancipatory efforts. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 12 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (10 children) I can certainly empathize. I have emotions, I'm a human being that feels anger and frustration, and can have that cloud my judgment. In that way, I have a "soul," though to be clear I do not believe in literal souls. However, I do not believe that emotional evaluations supercede rational ones, which is why I can say I would probably feel that way despite understanding it to be incorrect. As for juche, it's a Korean word. It largely means subjecthood, and can best be described as socialism with Korean characteristics. The party is not a privledged class in the DPRK, it's similar to how it was with the CPSU. Instead, the significance of juche comes from the understanding of man as a social being. It accepts Marxism-Leninism as fundamentally true, but that the soviet method could not be dogmatically copied by the DPRK and thus the conditions in Korea meant it had to adapt. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (4 children) Regarding car ownership, it's rising dramatically even in the last year. At one point it was far more limited, but the DPRK's economy is booming and trade with China is rising. As for apartments, I don't doubt that better apartments are made available to more critical workers and party members, this is similar to the USSR. The DPRK is constantly building new apartments, and as this happens the range with which people can get apartments widens. As for China's rural conditions, I'm well aware of the urban/rural gap, and this is thankfully something the CPC is focusing on improving. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments load more comments (4 replies) load more comments (5 replies) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (2 replies) load more comments (1 reply)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (17 children) Subtitles do not work in English on my end, so unfortunately I cannot read it, and I do not speak Russian. Is there a text version I can run through a translator? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 17 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (14 children) There are certainly new contradictions that arose from Reform and Opening Up, but without it it is highly unlikely that China would be in the position it is today, with incredible advancements in the productive forces and a new, multipolar order. I don't believe this is a departure from classical Marxism at all, but a different application of the same classical Marxist economics. Again, the Soviet economy is not the definition of socialism, but one application of Marxist economics. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 14 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (12 children) I'm aware of the intense nostalgia faced by the post-soviet peoples. I myself would probably fall into despair seeing such a system ripped from under my feet. I know many in Russia travel to the DPRK as it more closely resembles the Soviet era, despite being its own unique form of juche socialism. However, as I stand outside of the post-soviet sphere, in a country founded on genocide and settler-colonialism that continued to prey upon the world, I also believe I can have a view of Chinese, Korean, and former Soviet socialism that recognizes them all as legitimate emancipatory efforts. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 12 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (10 children) I can certainly empathize. I have emotions, I'm a human being that feels anger and frustration, and can have that cloud my judgment. In that way, I have a "soul," though to be clear I do not believe in literal souls. However, I do not believe that emotional evaluations supercede rational ones, which is why I can say I would probably feel that way despite understanding it to be incorrect. As for juche, it's a Korean word. It largely means subjecthood, and can best be described as socialism with Korean characteristics. The party is not a privledged class in the DPRK, it's similar to how it was with the CPSU. Instead, the significance of juche comes from the understanding of man as a social being. It accepts Marxism-Leninism as fundamentally true, but that the soviet method could not be dogmatically copied by the DPRK and thus the conditions in Korea meant it had to adapt. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (4 children) Regarding car ownership, it's rising dramatically even in the last year. At one point it was far more limited, but the DPRK's economy is booming and trade with China is rising. As for apartments, I don't doubt that better apartments are made available to more critical workers and party members, this is similar to the USSR. The DPRK is constantly building new apartments, and as this happens the range with which people can get apartments widens. As for China's rural conditions, I'm well aware of the urban/rural gap, and this is thankfully something the CPC is focusing on improving. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments load more comments (4 replies) load more comments (5 replies) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (2 replies)
[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (17 children) Subtitles do not work in English on my end, so unfortunately I cannot read it, and I do not speak Russian. Is there a text version I can run through a translator? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 17 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (14 children) There are certainly new contradictions that arose from Reform and Opening Up, but without it it is highly unlikely that China would be in the position it is today, with incredible advancements in the productive forces and a new, multipolar order. I don't believe this is a departure from classical Marxism at all, but a different application of the same classical Marxist economics. Again, the Soviet economy is not the definition of socialism, but one application of Marxist economics. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 14 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (12 children) I'm aware of the intense nostalgia faced by the post-soviet peoples. I myself would probably fall into despair seeing such a system ripped from under my feet. I know many in Russia travel to the DPRK as it more closely resembles the Soviet era, despite being its own unique form of juche socialism. However, as I stand outside of the post-soviet sphere, in a country founded on genocide and settler-colonialism that continued to prey upon the world, I also believe I can have a view of Chinese, Korean, and former Soviet socialism that recognizes them all as legitimate emancipatory efforts. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 12 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (10 children) I can certainly empathize. I have emotions, I'm a human being that feels anger and frustration, and can have that cloud my judgment. In that way, I have a "soul," though to be clear I do not believe in literal souls. However, I do not believe that emotional evaluations supercede rational ones, which is why I can say I would probably feel that way despite understanding it to be incorrect. As for juche, it's a Korean word. It largely means subjecthood, and can best be described as socialism with Korean characteristics. The party is not a privledged class in the DPRK, it's similar to how it was with the CPSU. Instead, the significance of juche comes from the understanding of man as a social being. It accepts Marxism-Leninism as fundamentally true, but that the soviet method could not be dogmatically copied by the DPRK and thus the conditions in Korea meant it had to adapt. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (4 children) Regarding car ownership, it's rising dramatically even in the last year. At one point it was far more limited, but the DPRK's economy is booming and trade with China is rising. As for apartments, I don't doubt that better apartments are made available to more critical workers and party members, this is similar to the USSR. The DPRK is constantly building new apartments, and as this happens the range with which people can get apartments widens. As for China's rural conditions, I'm well aware of the urban/rural gap, and this is thankfully something the CPC is focusing on improving. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments load more comments (4 replies) load more comments (5 replies) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (2 replies)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (14 children) There are certainly new contradictions that arose from Reform and Opening Up, but without it it is highly unlikely that China would be in the position it is today, with incredible advancements in the productive forces and a new, multipolar order. I don't believe this is a departure from classical Marxism at all, but a different application of the same classical Marxist economics. Again, the Soviet economy is not the definition of socialism, but one application of Marxist economics. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 14 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (12 children) I'm aware of the intense nostalgia faced by the post-soviet peoples. I myself would probably fall into despair seeing such a system ripped from under my feet. I know many in Russia travel to the DPRK as it more closely resembles the Soviet era, despite being its own unique form of juche socialism. However, as I stand outside of the post-soviet sphere, in a country founded on genocide and settler-colonialism that continued to prey upon the world, I also believe I can have a view of Chinese, Korean, and former Soviet socialism that recognizes them all as legitimate emancipatory efforts. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 12 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (10 children) I can certainly empathize. I have emotions, I'm a human being that feels anger and frustration, and can have that cloud my judgment. In that way, I have a "soul," though to be clear I do not believe in literal souls. However, I do not believe that emotional evaluations supercede rational ones, which is why I can say I would probably feel that way despite understanding it to be incorrect. As for juche, it's a Korean word. It largely means subjecthood, and can best be described as socialism with Korean characteristics. The party is not a privledged class in the DPRK, it's similar to how it was with the CPSU. Instead, the significance of juche comes from the understanding of man as a social being. It accepts Marxism-Leninism as fundamentally true, but that the soviet method could not be dogmatically copied by the DPRK and thus the conditions in Korea meant it had to adapt. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (4 children) Regarding car ownership, it's rising dramatically even in the last year. At one point it was far more limited, but the DPRK's economy is booming and trade with China is rising. As for apartments, I don't doubt that better apartments are made available to more critical workers and party members, this is similar to the USSR. The DPRK is constantly building new apartments, and as this happens the range with which people can get apartments widens. As for China's rural conditions, I'm well aware of the urban/rural gap, and this is thankfully something the CPC is focusing on improving. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments load more comments (4 replies) load more comments (5 replies) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply)
[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (14 children) There are certainly new contradictions that arose from Reform and Opening Up, but without it it is highly unlikely that China would be in the position it is today, with incredible advancements in the productive forces and a new, multipolar order. I don't believe this is a departure from classical Marxism at all, but a different application of the same classical Marxist economics. Again, the Soviet economy is not the definition of socialism, but one application of Marxist economics. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 14 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (12 children) I'm aware of the intense nostalgia faced by the post-soviet peoples. I myself would probably fall into despair seeing such a system ripped from under my feet. I know many in Russia travel to the DPRK as it more closely resembles the Soviet era, despite being its own unique form of juche socialism. However, as I stand outside of the post-soviet sphere, in a country founded on genocide and settler-colonialism that continued to prey upon the world, I also believe I can have a view of Chinese, Korean, and former Soviet socialism that recognizes them all as legitimate emancipatory efforts. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 12 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (10 children) I can certainly empathize. I have emotions, I'm a human being that feels anger and frustration, and can have that cloud my judgment. In that way, I have a "soul," though to be clear I do not believe in literal souls. However, I do not believe that emotional evaluations supercede rational ones, which is why I can say I would probably feel that way despite understanding it to be incorrect. As for juche, it's a Korean word. It largely means subjecthood, and can best be described as socialism with Korean characteristics. The party is not a privledged class in the DPRK, it's similar to how it was with the CPSU. Instead, the significance of juche comes from the understanding of man as a social being. It accepts Marxism-Leninism as fundamentally true, but that the soviet method could not be dogmatically copied by the DPRK and thus the conditions in Korea meant it had to adapt. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (4 children) Regarding car ownership, it's rising dramatically even in the last year. At one point it was far more limited, but the DPRK's economy is booming and trade with China is rising. As for apartments, I don't doubt that better apartments are made available to more critical workers and party members, this is similar to the USSR. The DPRK is constantly building new apartments, and as this happens the range with which people can get apartments widens. As for China's rural conditions, I'm well aware of the urban/rural gap, and this is thankfully something the CPC is focusing on improving. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments load more comments (4 replies) load more comments (5 replies) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (12 children) I'm aware of the intense nostalgia faced by the post-soviet peoples. I myself would probably fall into despair seeing such a system ripped from under my feet. I know many in Russia travel to the DPRK as it more closely resembles the Soviet era, despite being its own unique form of juche socialism. However, as I stand outside of the post-soviet sphere, in a country founded on genocide and settler-colonialism that continued to prey upon the world, I also believe I can have a view of Chinese, Korean, and former Soviet socialism that recognizes them all as legitimate emancipatory efforts. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 12 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (10 children) I can certainly empathize. I have emotions, I'm a human being that feels anger and frustration, and can have that cloud my judgment. In that way, I have a "soul," though to be clear I do not believe in literal souls. However, I do not believe that emotional evaluations supercede rational ones, which is why I can say I would probably feel that way despite understanding it to be incorrect. As for juche, it's a Korean word. It largely means subjecthood, and can best be described as socialism with Korean characteristics. The party is not a privledged class in the DPRK, it's similar to how it was with the CPSU. Instead, the significance of juche comes from the understanding of man as a social being. It accepts Marxism-Leninism as fundamentally true, but that the soviet method could not be dogmatically copied by the DPRK and thus the conditions in Korea meant it had to adapt. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (4 children) Regarding car ownership, it's rising dramatically even in the last year. At one point it was far more limited, but the DPRK's economy is booming and trade with China is rising. As for apartments, I don't doubt that better apartments are made available to more critical workers and party members, this is similar to the USSR. The DPRK is constantly building new apartments, and as this happens the range with which people can get apartments widens. As for China's rural conditions, I'm well aware of the urban/rural gap, and this is thankfully something the CPC is focusing on improving. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments load more comments (4 replies) load more comments (5 replies) load more comments (1 reply)
[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (12 children) I'm aware of the intense nostalgia faced by the post-soviet peoples. I myself would probably fall into despair seeing such a system ripped from under my feet. I know many in Russia travel to the DPRK as it more closely resembles the Soviet era, despite being its own unique form of juche socialism. However, as I stand outside of the post-soviet sphere, in a country founded on genocide and settler-colonialism that continued to prey upon the world, I also believe I can have a view of Chinese, Korean, and former Soviet socialism that recognizes them all as legitimate emancipatory efforts. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 12 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (10 children) I can certainly empathize. I have emotions, I'm a human being that feels anger and frustration, and can have that cloud my judgment. In that way, I have a "soul," though to be clear I do not believe in literal souls. However, I do not believe that emotional evaluations supercede rational ones, which is why I can say I would probably feel that way despite understanding it to be incorrect. As for juche, it's a Korean word. It largely means subjecthood, and can best be described as socialism with Korean characteristics. The party is not a privledged class in the DPRK, it's similar to how it was with the CPSU. Instead, the significance of juche comes from the understanding of man as a social being. It accepts Marxism-Leninism as fundamentally true, but that the soviet method could not be dogmatically copied by the DPRK and thus the conditions in Korea meant it had to adapt. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (4 children) Regarding car ownership, it's rising dramatically even in the last year. At one point it was far more limited, but the DPRK's economy is booming and trade with China is rising. As for apartments, I don't doubt that better apartments are made available to more critical workers and party members, this is similar to the USSR. The DPRK is constantly building new apartments, and as this happens the range with which people can get apartments widens. As for China's rural conditions, I'm well aware of the urban/rural gap, and this is thankfully something the CPC is focusing on improving. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments load more comments (4 replies) load more comments (5 replies) load more comments (1 reply)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (10 children) I can certainly empathize. I have emotions, I'm a human being that feels anger and frustration, and can have that cloud my judgment. In that way, I have a "soul," though to be clear I do not believe in literal souls. However, I do not believe that emotional evaluations supercede rational ones, which is why I can say I would probably feel that way despite understanding it to be incorrect. As for juche, it's a Korean word. It largely means subjecthood, and can best be described as socialism with Korean characteristics. The party is not a privledged class in the DPRK, it's similar to how it was with the CPSU. Instead, the significance of juche comes from the understanding of man as a social being. It accepts Marxism-Leninism as fundamentally true, but that the soviet method could not be dogmatically copied by the DPRK and thus the conditions in Korea meant it had to adapt. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (4 children) Regarding car ownership, it's rising dramatically even in the last year. At one point it was far more limited, but the DPRK's economy is booming and trade with China is rising. As for apartments, I don't doubt that better apartments are made available to more critical workers and party members, this is similar to the USSR. The DPRK is constantly building new apartments, and as this happens the range with which people can get apartments widens. As for China's rural conditions, I'm well aware of the urban/rural gap, and this is thankfully something the CPC is focusing on improving. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments load more comments (4 replies) load more comments (5 replies)
[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (10 children) I can certainly empathize. I have emotions, I'm a human being that feels anger and frustration, and can have that cloud my judgment. In that way, I have a "soul," though to be clear I do not believe in literal souls. However, I do not believe that emotional evaluations supercede rational ones, which is why I can say I would probably feel that way despite understanding it to be incorrect. As for juche, it's a Korean word. It largely means subjecthood, and can best be described as socialism with Korean characteristics. The party is not a privledged class in the DPRK, it's similar to how it was with the CPSU. Instead, the significance of juche comes from the understanding of man as a social being. It accepts Marxism-Leninism as fundamentally true, but that the soviet method could not be dogmatically copied by the DPRK and thus the conditions in Korea meant it had to adapt. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (4 children) Regarding car ownership, it's rising dramatically even in the last year. At one point it was far more limited, but the DPRK's economy is booming and trade with China is rising. As for apartments, I don't doubt that better apartments are made available to more critical workers and party members, this is similar to the USSR. The DPRK is constantly building new apartments, and as this happens the range with which people can get apartments widens. As for China's rural conditions, I'm well aware of the urban/rural gap, and this is thankfully something the CPC is focusing on improving. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments load more comments (4 replies) load more comments (5 replies)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (4 children) Regarding car ownership, it's rising dramatically even in the last year. At one point it was far more limited, but the DPRK's economy is booming and trade with China is rising. As for apartments, I don't doubt that better apartments are made available to more critical workers and party members, this is similar to the USSR. The DPRK is constantly building new apartments, and as this happens the range with which people can get apartments widens. As for China's rural conditions, I'm well aware of the urban/rural gap, and this is thankfully something the CPC is focusing on improving. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments load more comments (4 replies)
[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (4 children) Regarding car ownership, it's rising dramatically even in the last year. At one point it was far more limited, but the DPRK's economy is booming and trade with China is rising. As for apartments, I don't doubt that better apartments are made available to more critical workers and party members, this is similar to the USSR. The DPRK is constantly building new apartments, and as this happens the range with which people can get apartments widens. As for China's rural conditions, I'm well aware of the urban/rural gap, and this is thankfully something the CPC is focusing on improving. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments load more comments (4 replies)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (62 children) To be clear, I don't believe you are a subjective idealist. I believe that your nostalgia for a once great and now lost USSR has colored your analysis, but I believe you in general are more of a materialist. My critique of certain points of yours as metaphysical or idealist is constrained to those positions. As for the progress in China, it's already happening at a breakneck pace. Conditions are improving in China faster than anywhere else in the world. So what if they made a deal with the western devil? The soviets did so too during the NEP, the CPC revisited that idea and modified it to their contemporary conditions. Any comparison between the snake Khrushchev and Deng Xiaoping has to be understood in that Khrushchev downplayed the entirety of socialist construction thus far, creating historical pessimism, while Deng made it clear that Mao and Stalin were to be upheld, and that class struggle was alive and must be carefully fought. The Soviet models of socialism were not idealist, nor subjective. It was materialist, worked well, and was well-suited to the Soviet Union's conditions. My issue was the idea that if, say, Bolivia's ongoing protests erupt into revolution, that they should copy some period of the Soviet Union's models of socialism, rather than learn from it and adapt to their own conditions. Bolivia's conditions are not the same as the USSR's. As for Trotsky being for the NEP and Stalin being against it, the NEP ending early ended up being fortuitous in preparing for World War II. Had World War II not been on the horizon, then perhaps extending it may have been correct, to help develop light industry more. In China's case, their socialist market economy was handled in such a way as to rely on largely de-industrialized economies, thus the risk of war was lower while in the USSR a war was always around the corner. As for "western Marxism," in the west it is used as a pejorative against Marxists that vulgarize Marx and Lenin, opposing socialist states. I am happy that you meant no offense by it, comrade. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 62 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (60 children) Stalin was correct about industrialization in the 1930s, especially considering the external conditions and environment the soviets found themselves in. The incredible rates of industrialization were unprecedented in history, and the fact that industrialization was completed is why the heroic Red Army was equipped and able to defeat the Nazi menace. Mao's economy was also fantastic at getting rapid growth. Under Mao, life expectancy similarly doubled, and production was rapidly expanding. At the same time, growth was unstable, and many areas were lagging behind. What the CPC identified as lacking was on the technological front, as well as the productive forces in general. Deng's advancements did not overturn what Mao had created, they built upon it. While Stalin's artels were effective, and I was unaware of many of their specifics as you have now pointed out to me (thank you, by the way), they still did not have the same impact of undermining western production and accelerating technology transfer that Reform and Opening Up brought. I do not care for the "soul" being tarnished, the fact of the matter is that western technology is no longer a monopoly to hold on the world and enforce unequal exchange, and now China is eroding the foundations of modern imperialism and neocolonialism. As for Khrushchev, I do not deny the benefits of the Krushchevkas and other advancements. However, I called Khrushchev a snake, because the snake had venom. In casting Stalin to hell, he created a sense of historical nihilism. His insistence that the USSR had abolished class was also shortsighted. These fundamental errors weakened the CPSU, and created the foundation for further errors in Gorbachev's reforms. The CPC watched and refused to make the same mistakes. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 60 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (58 children) The NEP was forged in the context of a highly undeveloped Russia, with a necessity to uplift agriculture as soon as possible so as to rapidly improve industry. The hatred of the people towards the NEPmen was understandable, but a clear reading of the historical material conditions reveals that it was necessary. As long as the socialist state holds the commanding heights of industry, and maintains a vigilant eye towards any organized political resistance from the petite bourgeoisie and bourgeoisie, markets can be a complementary part to the broader socialist system in developing underdeveloped areas. As for Mao's economy, it was again rapid industrialization. The problem with Mao's economy was that growth was uneven and unstable. Deng Xiaoping's reforms stabilized and slightly accelerated development. You'll get no argument from me that killing off the sparrows was wrong, but knowledge of agronomics was very low comparatively in China, and thus this mistake was not repeated as their knowledge advanced. I also am not a fan of the sino-soviet split. I do not believe Mao to have been blameless for it, however, Khrushchev's venom was correctly called out by Mao. Just as Mao wasn't permanently good, so too was Khrushchev not permanently bad, but there's good reason why Khrushchev's actions enabled Gorbachev's, which enabled Yeltsin's. Regarding technology transfer, certainly you can see that Chinese manufacturing is now more advanced than soviet manufacturing. In becoming the world's factory, they not only copied western tech, but totally owned the entire production process, and now are using it to advance and develop further. There is a qualitative difference between reverse engineering every single thing you copy, and being able to simply copy what you're already manufacturing. All in all, I understand that I am not Russian. I am indeed a westerner, damned as I may be. However, I truly believe that I can recognize both the Chinese and Soviet approaches as immensely positive forces, and hope that Russia returns to socialism within my lifetime. I long to see the western empire fall, and I am happy to see existing socialist countries advance forward into the future despite western flailing. The west has fallen into China's trap, and it is too late to leave. What we are witnessing is a cornered beast that has already lost, and is throwing a fit in the aftermath. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 58 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (24 children) I want to make it clear, I am aware the Soviets had incredible technology that the west did not even have, at least for a time. My point regarding China's Socialist Market Economy is that the process of technology transfer happens faster, more completely, and is now being phased out in favor of new Chinese tech that in many fields is advanced beyond the west. China's socialist market economy is not a permanent strategy, but instead a tactical decision in a longer battle, and that's why the birdcage is closing. As for the cornered beast, I am referring to America. Russia certainly has a real need to return to socialism, but America is the one on its way out. And yes, the hatred of America is real, even liberals are beginning to detest America (though of course they will repeat nonsense about communism until they turn blue in the face). The Empire is dying. It can certainly lash out violently, but it cannot and will not save itself. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 24 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (22 children) One could say that the reason the Soviets could not get the same western investment is because of the differences between the soviet system and the Chinese system. This is why it's best not to look at socialism like a static formula, but a science with options and tradeoffs. China's decision came with good and bad, the soviet decision came with good and bad, the correct decision is only truly identifiable in hindsight. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 22 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (19 children) Stalin also made errors and mistakes in socialist construction. You are overweighting Mao's mistakes and ignoring the successes under Mao, the establishment and solidification of socialism in China. The modern CPC has learned from both the successes and mistakes of both Stalin and Mao, while the CPSU decayed. As much as I wish the USSR had not dissolved, it did, and we are in the aftermath of such a tragedy. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 19 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (13 children) I believe you are mistaken, comrade. I am not actually Nikita Khrushchev nor am I Mao Zedong. Any "double-standard" you see with Deng Xiaoping's Reform and Opening Up as a result of problems with the late Mao era and the Gang of Four must be considered from that context, and not merely from one aspect of Mao's critique of Khrushchev's policy before the Gang of Four era. Regarding the Gang of Four, they were largely an extension of Mao's incorrect lines towards the end of his life, without most of his positive lines. Deng Xiaoping corrected the course for the new era of development, having inherited a basically industrialized economy but with widespread poverty and backwards technology. As for China outmaneuvering the west, I agree. This is pretty plainly what happened, despite what the west thought they could get away with, China maintained a dictatorship of the proletariat and maintained political control in the socialist market economy. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 13 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (9 children) It's widely acknowledged that the later Mao era and the era of the Gang of Four was filled with mistakes, and that Reform & Opening Up was a course correction. You may call this "double standards," but learning from mistakes when practice doesn't live up to expectations is how we grow. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 9 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (8 children) It’s widely acknowledged that the later Mao We’ve finally reached a consensus, Comrade! There’s just a slight discrepancy regarding the dates. You say the late Mao era began in 1968, whereas I maintain that the late Mao era you’re referring to actually began after Stalin’s death. Let me just clarify one more thing: from 1950 onwards—after suffering four strokes—Stalin didn’t really make any major decisions in the country. A triumvirate was formed—Malenkov, Beria, and Molotov—to prepare all key state projects, while Stalin merely affixed the final approval. So, in essence, Stalin had already died back in 1950. If we settle on a middle ground... say, 1959—would that work for you, Comrade?... )))) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (7 children) I don't think we are going to come to an agreement here. I wouldn't put a hard date on it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (6 children) Comrade, just so you know: if I use ")))", it means I'm joking. Of course, one shouldn't date events that way. I wanted to highlight the fact that you agreed with me on at least one thing!))) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (5 children) I understand )))! Just not used to seeing it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (4 children) When you see that ")))", you’ll realize you’re talking to a Russian or a Russian speaker. Okay, in that case, let’s talk about humor. Let’s talk about folklore. Folklore isn't about the state; it’s about the people. Folklore reflects the collective mindset of the people—I think you’d agree with that... Vox populi, vox Dei. Here’s a Soviet-era joke; these few lines capture the whole essence: "To launch a satellite, the Chinese formed a human pyramid a thousand stories high, but it collapsed because the guy on the three-hundred-and-seventeenth floor hadn't properly mastered Mao's Little Red Book." You’re an intelligent person, so you surely understand that my views were formed back in early childhood. It’s something ingrained at a subconscious level. So, please forgive me for my past stubbornness. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (3 children) I understand and can empathize with your views, I just have disagreements on certain aspects. These of course are colored by both of our upbringings, you within the Soviet Union and me entirely disconnected from socialism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (2 children) I very often fill gaps in my theoretical knowledge with personal experience—please forgive me for that! I would also like to note that the interpretation of Marx's theory in the USSR was somewhat simplified. For instance, the USSR acknowledged the existence of a primitive communal system but not the "Asiatic mode of production." I only heard about the latter recently. I would like to highlight this aspect; perhaps the key to what is currently happening in China lies there. Given that my knowledge of Marx's theory is superficial—and considering that Marx did not outline a precise model for constructing socialism (his work was largely a theoretical analysis of capitalism and its consequences)—it is worth noting that philosophy never sets concrete tasks for the individual. Regarding your view of Marx's philosophy, I can also point out an inaccuracy. You state that Marx envisioned the construction of socialism only within the context of developed capitalism, based on highly advanced productive forces. However, that is not entirely the case. In a letter to Vera Zasulich (dated March 8, 1881), https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%83%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%87,_%D0%92%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B0_%D0%98%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BD%D0%B0 Karl Marx stated that Russia could bypass the painful stage of capitalism. He emphasized that his theory was not a universal historical prescription and that the Russian peasant commune could, under certain conditions, become the nucleus of socialist development. Marx told Zasulich at the time that education was one of the most crucial factors in the possibility of bypassing the agonizing stage of capitalism. The bottom line is this: Lenin and Trotsky supported the NEP, whereas Stalin sided with "Zasulich." Stalin turned out to be entirely right, and he did not deviate from Marx's theory by even a millimeter. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] timdrake@lemmy.ml 1 point 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) In the preface to the 1882 Russian edition of the Manifesto, Marx and Engels say that the Russian commune could “pass directly to the higher form of Communist common ownership” only if the Russian Revolution (which he saw as inevitable, though it was not inevitable that it would "take[] place in time" (first draft of letter to Zasulich), and in the Letter to Otecestvenniye Zapisky he says that if Russia continues on its path, it will have lost this chance to skip the phase of capitalist development) is supported by wider revolution in the West. Otherwise, the Russian commune “must [] first pass through the same process of dissolution such as constitutes the historical evolution of the West.” There’s zero approval by Marx here for the notion of skipping the phase of private production/property in one country without a wider revolution. Marx told Zasulich at the time that education was one of the most crucial factors in the possibility of bypassing the agonizing stage of capitalism. No he didn’t. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago You misinterpret Marx's statement. I'm fully aware of Marx's views on the Russian commune movement, the problem is that you assume the Soviet model is what Marx was referring to, and that a more classically Marxist understanding of socialism was not what he meant. Marx was fairly explicit in what a socialist state would be, one where public ownership is principal and the working classes control the state. The Russian peasantry could have bypassed the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie and went straight to a dictatorship of the proletariat and peasantry, but they would not be able to avoid the problem of transitioning small ownership to large, industrialized ownership without the aid of markets. The fact of the matter is that private property existed de facto in the USSR. One of the mistakes of former socialism was merely trying to punish private ownership, rather than subordinate it to the public sector. Marx analyzed markets as being enormously useful in stitching together all of the small owners and building up productive forces, and public ownership as being superior at running large industry. Stalin ending the NEP early was a matter of survival, and was correct. China's conditions are different, and now occupies a more classically Marxist economy. It isn't even the same as the NEP, China was closer to the NEP under Mao, the socialist market economy of China is a more classically Marxist economy, with the ability to be so precisely because the imperialists cannot afford to decouple from them. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (3 replies) load more comments (5 replies) load more comments (2 replies) load more comments (1 reply) [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (30 children) Abolishing the NEP in the USSR and moving onto more planned economy ended up being beneficial. However, in the case of China, the NEP-inspired socialist market economy is the reason China is where they are today. New contradictions have arisen, which is of course a gamble, but with that came highly developed productive forces and tight interconnection with the global economy. This has allowed the PRC to reach where the USSR could not, and the developed productive forces are forming the basis of the newly emerging, more planned economy. As for Mao, China was horribly underdeveloped. Many of his mistakes were in dealing with such an environment, knowledge of agronomics was low and industrialization was non-existent. Under Mao, a solid socialist base was laid out, which managed to created the basis for the modern economy. As for the Sino-Soviet split, it's a tragedy, and was avoidable. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 30 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (12 children) I'm not denying that China has shortcomings. I believe you are magnifying them beyond their actual levels. As for Cheng Enfu's diagram, it essentially describes increasing planning and decreasing marketization over time. Marketization helps socialize production, and over time this is reigned in, creating a fully planned economy. As for Mao Zedong Thought, some aspects have applicability elsewhere. The Mass Line is a generally useful tactic, Protracted People's War can be useful in largely agrarian countries with high peasant populations and smaller urban centers, and so forth. It isn't universal, but Mao Zedong Thought works well for China and tactics from it have seen success in the global south, including in Vietnam. As for your insinuation that there are privledged people in China, yes, this is true. This is a side-effect of the socialist market economy. It's a tradeoff, an inefficiency that serves as a sort of price for the positive aspects of the socialist market economy. Excessive luxury is being cracked down on, and as China's socialist system develops, obscene wealth is being diminished while absolute wealth rises for the average worker. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 12 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (10 children) I never said Mao did not rely heavily on the USSR, so I will largely ignore those points as we do not really disagree. Regarding the Mass Line, it is essentially the tactic of taking policy from the people, and having the party reinterpret it and enact it accordingly. It is a way to avoid commandism and tailism, and has been applied by various ML or Maoist parties. Maoists tend to believe it is universal, while MLs tend to believe it is particular to certain conditions similar to China's experience. As for cracking down on excessive luxury, one example is the censorship of flaunting wealth on social media, and punishing those found guilty of corruption, taking bribes, etc. In China, the number of billionaires is decreasing, as the NEP-style economy is transitioning to a more advanced planned economy gradually. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (8 children) I'm aware that Mao believed that. That's why the narrative that Deng Xiaoping "backstabbed" socialism is false, Reform & Opening Up was a continuation of the economic basis laid out by Mao. As for cracking down on flaunting wealth, if your impression is already highly skeptical of China, it can seem that it's only to hide it from the public. A more comprehensive view of China, however, reveals it to not be mere rhetoric but the outcome of having both a socialist state and the contradictions rising from marketization. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (7 children) I’m aware that Mao believed that. Yes, exactly! That is the main argument—held by the Chinese themselves, by Western socialists (Trotskyists), and by the "new breed" of Western socialists (like you): that China fell out with the USSR because Khrushchev pursued a policy of "openness." But I keep telling you all that this isn't true, and it wasn't about Stalin! The reason was something else entirely. Relations between Khrushchev and Mao deteriorated completely after Mao asked the USSR to build a nuclear submarine fleet for China. Khrushchev agreed, but with the stipulation that the fleet would be a joint venture and based in Soviet Far Eastern ports. For some reason, Mao took great offense at this and refused. Now you can see just how brazen Mao was. These are all matters of public record; you can read about it yourself. I believe the reason for the rift was that, after Stalin's death, Mao considered himself the world's leading socialist—superior to the others and capable of handling everything on his own. He did not view Khrushchev as his equal. We saw how that turned out. As for cracking down on flaunting wealth, if your impression is already highly skeptical of China, it can seem that it’s only to hide it from the public. Yes, I know the statistics: wage growth in China is 4–6% annually. But I’m not convinced that wages are rising only for the poor—or that the 4–6% gains belonging to the middle and upper classes are being taken away and redistributed to China’s lower-income population. Show me the data on that trend, and then I’ll agree with you. I’d like to see statistics for these companies: JD.com: The revenue leader among China’s private enterprises, generating around 1.16 trillion yuan annually. Alibaba Group: JD.com’s main rival in the e-commerce market, showing steady growth driven by logistics and international expansion. ByteDance (owner of TikTok): The fastest-growing brand and largest private tech corporation. According to analyst reports, its brand value grew by 45% in a single year, reaching $153.5 billion. In cases where profits surged by 45% (an increase of 70 billion per year), exactly how much of that actually went to the poorer segments of the population? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (6 children) I think you're reading more into my position than I have stated myself. I understand that Mao was not innocent within the split, neither were the soviets. That's why I have stated that the split was a tragedy and should have been avoided had both sides statesmen been competent enough. As for statistics on wealth over time, you can even see western articles framing this crackdown in "scary language." The trend is gradual, but it isn't nonexistent either. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (5 children) I think you’re reading more into my position than I have stated myself. Yes, Comrade, you’re right. It’s a very painful subject for me. To me, this is just like Solzhenitsyn’s The Gulag Archipelago, a work that slandered and humiliated the entire Soviet ideology. Both have fostered a distorted view of the Soviet era. They have given rise to all sorts of false theories that are published and circulated worldwide on a massive scale. Yet the Soviet soul is all I have left in life now. I am being bombed every night, but I live in the past—I live on memories... As for statistics on wealth over time, you can even see western articles framing this crackdown in “scary language.” The trend is gradual, but it isn’t nonexistent either. Ma crossed a red line; Xi decided that the oligarchs were becoming a threat to him... though he seems to have realized this rather late. We can certainly see Ma’s attempt to meddle in state affairs. People used to tell me that China has no oligarchs because Chinese billionaires don't interfere in government business. Yet, I highly doubt that was the first time Ma had meddled in state affairs—after all, he is a long-standing Communist Party member. To be honest, Comrade, what is actually happening in China is a closely guarded secret. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (4 children) Again, I think you're reading the situation through pessimistic hermeneutics, seeing what isn't actually there as present based on pessimism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (3 children) That’s an interesting way to put it. Are you referring to Cervantes and the windmills? My subjective pessimism stems from the fact that I’ve lost faith in my own future—my personal future. It’s just that, due to certain circumstances, I reached a point where I lost hope for what lies ahead. I’ve come to terms with that now. As for objective pessimism, that has nothing to do with my personal outlook. If you like, you could call it dialectics in its most extreme form... ))))) But seriously, Comrade, when was the last time you saw someone looking toward humanity's future with confidence and optimism—without any illusions? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (2 children) I'm referring to someone whose own pessimism causes them to see negativity where there is no actual basis for it. Your mind fills in the blanks, so to speak. Nobody is immune to this, I am an optimist, a revolutionary optimist. I have to hold onto hope to move forward, and do my best to temper that with sober and grounded analysis. Optimism is a revolutionary feeling, pessimism leads to nihilism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (1 child) I’m referring to someone whose own pessimism causes them to see negativity where there is no actual basis for it. Yes, you described that guy accurately. And that’s hardly surprising, because in this world, he has no choice but to be a sociopath. As for the idea that I might be talking nonsense—that’s unlikely; I have far too much practical life experience to spout complete rubbish. I’ve clawed my way to the top three times in my life, only to hit rock bottom again. Right now, I’m at the bottom once more. Would you be an optimist if you were in my shoes, Comrade? ... ))) And please, don’t tell me that I’m the one to blame for it all, rather than the way life is set up! I am an optimist, a revolutionary optimist. You just got lucky, Comrade! I'm happy for you. I was just like that once, too. I have to hold onto hope to move forward, and do my best to temper that with sober and grounded analysis. Yes, it's Dostoevsky: The most terrible thing is when a person has nowhere to go. This quote reflects one of Fyodor Dostoevsky's most haunting themes: the crushing despair of total alienation and the human necessity for purpose. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago I don't mean it as a moral condemnation, or an expectation to be "better," but as an explanation for why we are in disagreement on certain aspects. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (6 children) It's certainly true that mistakes in work and management exaggerated the impacts of natural disaster. This did result in making a naturally occurring famine worse, similar to what happened in the 1930s soviet famine. However, between 1949 and 1978, agriculture was dramatically overhauled and succeeded in achieving food security, ending famine in a region where famine was historically common (again, similar to the 1930s soviet famine). Was the Great Leap Forward a clear success? No, not necessarily. Over-enthusiasm and mistakes in work magnified the impact of weather disaster. Millions did die. However, these mistakes were rectified, and agriculture was successfully advanced. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (4 children) Similar to the soviet experience, Chinese workers are holding their heads high in new stages in socialist construction, with simiarly rapid levels of development. Anecdotes aside, this experience is common among both China and the USSR. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (1 child) You could be correct, but we would never know. If only people in the USSR back then had known what they stood to lose... permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago Agreed. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (2 replies) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (10 replies) load more comments (2 replies) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply)
[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (62 children) To be clear, I don't believe you are a subjective idealist. I believe that your nostalgia for a once great and now lost USSR has colored your analysis, but I believe you in general are more of a materialist. My critique of certain points of yours as metaphysical or idealist is constrained to those positions. As for the progress in China, it's already happening at a breakneck pace. Conditions are improving in China faster than anywhere else in the world. So what if they made a deal with the western devil? The soviets did so too during the NEP, the CPC revisited that idea and modified it to their contemporary conditions. Any comparison between the snake Khrushchev and Deng Xiaoping has to be understood in that Khrushchev downplayed the entirety of socialist construction thus far, creating historical pessimism, while Deng made it clear that Mao and Stalin were to be upheld, and that class struggle was alive and must be carefully fought. The Soviet models of socialism were not idealist, nor subjective. It was materialist, worked well, and was well-suited to the Soviet Union's conditions. My issue was the idea that if, say, Bolivia's ongoing protests erupt into revolution, that they should copy some period of the Soviet Union's models of socialism, rather than learn from it and adapt to their own conditions. Bolivia's conditions are not the same as the USSR's. As for Trotsky being for the NEP and Stalin being against it, the NEP ending early ended up being fortuitous in preparing for World War II. Had World War II not been on the horizon, then perhaps extending it may have been correct, to help develop light industry more. In China's case, their socialist market economy was handled in such a way as to rely on largely de-industrialized economies, thus the risk of war was lower while in the USSR a war was always around the corner. As for "western Marxism," in the west it is used as a pejorative against Marxists that vulgarize Marx and Lenin, opposing socialist states. I am happy that you meant no offense by it, comrade. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 62 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (60 children) Stalin was correct about industrialization in the 1930s, especially considering the external conditions and environment the soviets found themselves in. The incredible rates of industrialization were unprecedented in history, and the fact that industrialization was completed is why the heroic Red Army was equipped and able to defeat the Nazi menace. Mao's economy was also fantastic at getting rapid growth. Under Mao, life expectancy similarly doubled, and production was rapidly expanding. At the same time, growth was unstable, and many areas were lagging behind. What the CPC identified as lacking was on the technological front, as well as the productive forces in general. Deng's advancements did not overturn what Mao had created, they built upon it. While Stalin's artels were effective, and I was unaware of many of their specifics as you have now pointed out to me (thank you, by the way), they still did not have the same impact of undermining western production and accelerating technology transfer that Reform and Opening Up brought. I do not care for the "soul" being tarnished, the fact of the matter is that western technology is no longer a monopoly to hold on the world and enforce unequal exchange, and now China is eroding the foundations of modern imperialism and neocolonialism. As for Khrushchev, I do not deny the benefits of the Krushchevkas and other advancements. However, I called Khrushchev a snake, because the snake had venom. In casting Stalin to hell, he created a sense of historical nihilism. His insistence that the USSR had abolished class was also shortsighted. These fundamental errors weakened the CPSU, and created the foundation for further errors in Gorbachev's reforms. The CPC watched and refused to make the same mistakes. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 60 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (58 children) The NEP was forged in the context of a highly undeveloped Russia, with a necessity to uplift agriculture as soon as possible so as to rapidly improve industry. The hatred of the people towards the NEPmen was understandable, but a clear reading of the historical material conditions reveals that it was necessary. As long as the socialist state holds the commanding heights of industry, and maintains a vigilant eye towards any organized political resistance from the petite bourgeoisie and bourgeoisie, markets can be a complementary part to the broader socialist system in developing underdeveloped areas. As for Mao's economy, it was again rapid industrialization. The problem with Mao's economy was that growth was uneven and unstable. Deng Xiaoping's reforms stabilized and slightly accelerated development. You'll get no argument from me that killing off the sparrows was wrong, but knowledge of agronomics was very low comparatively in China, and thus this mistake was not repeated as their knowledge advanced. I also am not a fan of the sino-soviet split. I do not believe Mao to have been blameless for it, however, Khrushchev's venom was correctly called out by Mao. Just as Mao wasn't permanently good, so too was Khrushchev not permanently bad, but there's good reason why Khrushchev's actions enabled Gorbachev's, which enabled Yeltsin's. Regarding technology transfer, certainly you can see that Chinese manufacturing is now more advanced than soviet manufacturing. In becoming the world's factory, they not only copied western tech, but totally owned the entire production process, and now are using it to advance and develop further. There is a qualitative difference between reverse engineering every single thing you copy, and being able to simply copy what you're already manufacturing. All in all, I understand that I am not Russian. I am indeed a westerner, damned as I may be. However, I truly believe that I can recognize both the Chinese and Soviet approaches as immensely positive forces, and hope that Russia returns to socialism within my lifetime. I long to see the western empire fall, and I am happy to see existing socialist countries advance forward into the future despite western flailing. The west has fallen into China's trap, and it is too late to leave. What we are witnessing is a cornered beast that has already lost, and is throwing a fit in the aftermath. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 58 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (24 children) I want to make it clear, I am aware the Soviets had incredible technology that the west did not even have, at least for a time. My point regarding China's Socialist Market Economy is that the process of technology transfer happens faster, more completely, and is now being phased out in favor of new Chinese tech that in many fields is advanced beyond the west. China's socialist market economy is not a permanent strategy, but instead a tactical decision in a longer battle, and that's why the birdcage is closing. As for the cornered beast, I am referring to America. Russia certainly has a real need to return to socialism, but America is the one on its way out. And yes, the hatred of America is real, even liberals are beginning to detest America (though of course they will repeat nonsense about communism until they turn blue in the face). The Empire is dying. It can certainly lash out violently, but it cannot and will not save itself. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 24 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (22 children) One could say that the reason the Soviets could not get the same western investment is because of the differences between the soviet system and the Chinese system. This is why it's best not to look at socialism like a static formula, but a science with options and tradeoffs. China's decision came with good and bad, the soviet decision came with good and bad, the correct decision is only truly identifiable in hindsight. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 22 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (19 children) Stalin also made errors and mistakes in socialist construction. You are overweighting Mao's mistakes and ignoring the successes under Mao, the establishment and solidification of socialism in China. The modern CPC has learned from both the successes and mistakes of both Stalin and Mao, while the CPSU decayed. As much as I wish the USSR had not dissolved, it did, and we are in the aftermath of such a tragedy. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 19 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (13 children) I believe you are mistaken, comrade. I am not actually Nikita Khrushchev nor am I Mao Zedong. Any "double-standard" you see with Deng Xiaoping's Reform and Opening Up as a result of problems with the late Mao era and the Gang of Four must be considered from that context, and not merely from one aspect of Mao's critique of Khrushchev's policy before the Gang of Four era. Regarding the Gang of Four, they were largely an extension of Mao's incorrect lines towards the end of his life, without most of his positive lines. Deng Xiaoping corrected the course for the new era of development, having inherited a basically industrialized economy but with widespread poverty and backwards technology. As for China outmaneuvering the west, I agree. This is pretty plainly what happened, despite what the west thought they could get away with, China maintained a dictatorship of the proletariat and maintained political control in the socialist market economy. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 13 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (9 children) It's widely acknowledged that the later Mao era and the era of the Gang of Four was filled with mistakes, and that Reform & Opening Up was a course correction. You may call this "double standards," but learning from mistakes when practice doesn't live up to expectations is how we grow. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 9 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (8 children) It’s widely acknowledged that the later Mao We’ve finally reached a consensus, Comrade! There’s just a slight discrepancy regarding the dates. You say the late Mao era began in 1968, whereas I maintain that the late Mao era you’re referring to actually began after Stalin’s death. Let me just clarify one more thing: from 1950 onwards—after suffering four strokes—Stalin didn’t really make any major decisions in the country. A triumvirate was formed—Malenkov, Beria, and Molotov—to prepare all key state projects, while Stalin merely affixed the final approval. So, in essence, Stalin had already died back in 1950. If we settle on a middle ground... say, 1959—would that work for you, Comrade?... )))) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (7 children) I don't think we are going to come to an agreement here. I wouldn't put a hard date on it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (6 children) Comrade, just so you know: if I use ")))", it means I'm joking. Of course, one shouldn't date events that way. I wanted to highlight the fact that you agreed with me on at least one thing!))) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (5 children) I understand )))! Just not used to seeing it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (4 children) When you see that ")))", you’ll realize you’re talking to a Russian or a Russian speaker. Okay, in that case, let’s talk about humor. Let’s talk about folklore. Folklore isn't about the state; it’s about the people. Folklore reflects the collective mindset of the people—I think you’d agree with that... Vox populi, vox Dei. Here’s a Soviet-era joke; these few lines capture the whole essence: "To launch a satellite, the Chinese formed a human pyramid a thousand stories high, but it collapsed because the guy on the three-hundred-and-seventeenth floor hadn't properly mastered Mao's Little Red Book." You’re an intelligent person, so you surely understand that my views were formed back in early childhood. It’s something ingrained at a subconscious level. So, please forgive me for my past stubbornness. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (3 children) I understand and can empathize with your views, I just have disagreements on certain aspects. These of course are colored by both of our upbringings, you within the Soviet Union and me entirely disconnected from socialism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (2 children) I very often fill gaps in my theoretical knowledge with personal experience—please forgive me for that! I would also like to note that the interpretation of Marx's theory in the USSR was somewhat simplified. For instance, the USSR acknowledged the existence of a primitive communal system but not the "Asiatic mode of production." I only heard about the latter recently. I would like to highlight this aspect; perhaps the key to what is currently happening in China lies there. Given that my knowledge of Marx's theory is superficial—and considering that Marx did not outline a precise model for constructing socialism (his work was largely a theoretical analysis of capitalism and its consequences)—it is worth noting that philosophy never sets concrete tasks for the individual. Regarding your view of Marx's philosophy, I can also point out an inaccuracy. You state that Marx envisioned the construction of socialism only within the context of developed capitalism, based on highly advanced productive forces. However, that is not entirely the case. In a letter to Vera Zasulich (dated March 8, 1881), https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%83%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%87,_%D0%92%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B0_%D0%98%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BD%D0%B0 Karl Marx stated that Russia could bypass the painful stage of capitalism. He emphasized that his theory was not a universal historical prescription and that the Russian peasant commune could, under certain conditions, become the nucleus of socialist development. Marx told Zasulich at the time that education was one of the most crucial factors in the possibility of bypassing the agonizing stage of capitalism. The bottom line is this: Lenin and Trotsky supported the NEP, whereas Stalin sided with "Zasulich." Stalin turned out to be entirely right, and he did not deviate from Marx's theory by even a millimeter. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] timdrake@lemmy.ml 1 point 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) In the preface to the 1882 Russian edition of the Manifesto, Marx and Engels say that the Russian commune could “pass directly to the higher form of Communist common ownership” only if the Russian Revolution (which he saw as inevitable, though it was not inevitable that it would "take[] place in time" (first draft of letter to Zasulich), and in the Letter to Otecestvenniye Zapisky he says that if Russia continues on its path, it will have lost this chance to skip the phase of capitalist development) is supported by wider revolution in the West. Otherwise, the Russian commune “must [] first pass through the same process of dissolution such as constitutes the historical evolution of the West.” There’s zero approval by Marx here for the notion of skipping the phase of private production/property in one country without a wider revolution. Marx told Zasulich at the time that education was one of the most crucial factors in the possibility of bypassing the agonizing stage of capitalism. No he didn’t. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago You misinterpret Marx's statement. I'm fully aware of Marx's views on the Russian commune movement, the problem is that you assume the Soviet model is what Marx was referring to, and that a more classically Marxist understanding of socialism was not what he meant. Marx was fairly explicit in what a socialist state would be, one where public ownership is principal and the working classes control the state. The Russian peasantry could have bypassed the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie and went straight to a dictatorship of the proletariat and peasantry, but they would not be able to avoid the problem of transitioning small ownership to large, industrialized ownership without the aid of markets. The fact of the matter is that private property existed de facto in the USSR. One of the mistakes of former socialism was merely trying to punish private ownership, rather than subordinate it to the public sector. Marx analyzed markets as being enormously useful in stitching together all of the small owners and building up productive forces, and public ownership as being superior at running large industry. Stalin ending the NEP early was a matter of survival, and was correct. China's conditions are different, and now occupies a more classically Marxist economy. It isn't even the same as the NEP, China was closer to the NEP under Mao, the socialist market economy of China is a more classically Marxist economy, with the ability to be so precisely because the imperialists cannot afford to decouple from them. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (3 replies) load more comments (5 replies) load more comments (2 replies) load more comments (1 reply) [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (30 children) Abolishing the NEP in the USSR and moving onto more planned economy ended up being beneficial. However, in the case of China, the NEP-inspired socialist market economy is the reason China is where they are today. New contradictions have arisen, which is of course a gamble, but with that came highly developed productive forces and tight interconnection with the global economy. This has allowed the PRC to reach where the USSR could not, and the developed productive forces are forming the basis of the newly emerging, more planned economy. As for Mao, China was horribly underdeveloped. Many of his mistakes were in dealing with such an environment, knowledge of agronomics was low and industrialization was non-existent. Under Mao, a solid socialist base was laid out, which managed to created the basis for the modern economy. As for the Sino-Soviet split, it's a tragedy, and was avoidable. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 30 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (12 children) I'm not denying that China has shortcomings. I believe you are magnifying them beyond their actual levels. As for Cheng Enfu's diagram, it essentially describes increasing planning and decreasing marketization over time. Marketization helps socialize production, and over time this is reigned in, creating a fully planned economy. As for Mao Zedong Thought, some aspects have applicability elsewhere. The Mass Line is a generally useful tactic, Protracted People's War can be useful in largely agrarian countries with high peasant populations and smaller urban centers, and so forth. It isn't universal, but Mao Zedong Thought works well for China and tactics from it have seen success in the global south, including in Vietnam. As for your insinuation that there are privledged people in China, yes, this is true. This is a side-effect of the socialist market economy. It's a tradeoff, an inefficiency that serves as a sort of price for the positive aspects of the socialist market economy. Excessive luxury is being cracked down on, and as China's socialist system develops, obscene wealth is being diminished while absolute wealth rises for the average worker. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 12 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (10 children) I never said Mao did not rely heavily on the USSR, so I will largely ignore those points as we do not really disagree. Regarding the Mass Line, it is essentially the tactic of taking policy from the people, and having the party reinterpret it and enact it accordingly. It is a way to avoid commandism and tailism, and has been applied by various ML or Maoist parties. Maoists tend to believe it is universal, while MLs tend to believe it is particular to certain conditions similar to China's experience. As for cracking down on excessive luxury, one example is the censorship of flaunting wealth on social media, and punishing those found guilty of corruption, taking bribes, etc. In China, the number of billionaires is decreasing, as the NEP-style economy is transitioning to a more advanced planned economy gradually. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (8 children) I'm aware that Mao believed that. That's why the narrative that Deng Xiaoping "backstabbed" socialism is false, Reform & Opening Up was a continuation of the economic basis laid out by Mao. As for cracking down on flaunting wealth, if your impression is already highly skeptical of China, it can seem that it's only to hide it from the public. A more comprehensive view of China, however, reveals it to not be mere rhetoric but the outcome of having both a socialist state and the contradictions rising from marketization. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (7 children) I’m aware that Mao believed that. Yes, exactly! That is the main argument—held by the Chinese themselves, by Western socialists (Trotskyists), and by the "new breed" of Western socialists (like you): that China fell out with the USSR because Khrushchev pursued a policy of "openness." But I keep telling you all that this isn't true, and it wasn't about Stalin! The reason was something else entirely. Relations between Khrushchev and Mao deteriorated completely after Mao asked the USSR to build a nuclear submarine fleet for China. Khrushchev agreed, but with the stipulation that the fleet would be a joint venture and based in Soviet Far Eastern ports. For some reason, Mao took great offense at this and refused. Now you can see just how brazen Mao was. These are all matters of public record; you can read about it yourself. I believe the reason for the rift was that, after Stalin's death, Mao considered himself the world's leading socialist—superior to the others and capable of handling everything on his own. He did not view Khrushchev as his equal. We saw how that turned out. As for cracking down on flaunting wealth, if your impression is already highly skeptical of China, it can seem that it’s only to hide it from the public. Yes, I know the statistics: wage growth in China is 4–6% annually. But I’m not convinced that wages are rising only for the poor—or that the 4–6% gains belonging to the middle and upper classes are being taken away and redistributed to China’s lower-income population. Show me the data on that trend, and then I’ll agree with you. I’d like to see statistics for these companies: JD.com: The revenue leader among China’s private enterprises, generating around 1.16 trillion yuan annually. Alibaba Group: JD.com’s main rival in the e-commerce market, showing steady growth driven by logistics and international expansion. ByteDance (owner of TikTok): The fastest-growing brand and largest private tech corporation. According to analyst reports, its brand value grew by 45% in a single year, reaching $153.5 billion. In cases where profits surged by 45% (an increase of 70 billion per year), exactly how much of that actually went to the poorer segments of the population? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (6 children) I think you're reading more into my position than I have stated myself. I understand that Mao was not innocent within the split, neither were the soviets. That's why I have stated that the split was a tragedy and should have been avoided had both sides statesmen been competent enough. As for statistics on wealth over time, you can even see western articles framing this crackdown in "scary language." The trend is gradual, but it isn't nonexistent either. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (5 children) I think you’re reading more into my position than I have stated myself. Yes, Comrade, you’re right. It’s a very painful subject for me. To me, this is just like Solzhenitsyn’s The Gulag Archipelago, a work that slandered and humiliated the entire Soviet ideology. Both have fostered a distorted view of the Soviet era. They have given rise to all sorts of false theories that are published and circulated worldwide on a massive scale. Yet the Soviet soul is all I have left in life now. I am being bombed every night, but I live in the past—I live on memories... As for statistics on wealth over time, you can even see western articles framing this crackdown in “scary language.” The trend is gradual, but it isn’t nonexistent either. Ma crossed a red line; Xi decided that the oligarchs were becoming a threat to him... though he seems to have realized this rather late. We can certainly see Ma’s attempt to meddle in state affairs. People used to tell me that China has no oligarchs because Chinese billionaires don't interfere in government business. Yet, I highly doubt that was the first time Ma had meddled in state affairs—after all, he is a long-standing Communist Party member. To be honest, Comrade, what is actually happening in China is a closely guarded secret. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (4 children) Again, I think you're reading the situation through pessimistic hermeneutics, seeing what isn't actually there as present based on pessimism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (3 children) That’s an interesting way to put it. Are you referring to Cervantes and the windmills? My subjective pessimism stems from the fact that I’ve lost faith in my own future—my personal future. It’s just that, due to certain circumstances, I reached a point where I lost hope for what lies ahead. I’ve come to terms with that now. As for objective pessimism, that has nothing to do with my personal outlook. If you like, you could call it dialectics in its most extreme form... ))))) But seriously, Comrade, when was the last time you saw someone looking toward humanity's future with confidence and optimism—without any illusions? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (2 children) I'm referring to someone whose own pessimism causes them to see negativity where there is no actual basis for it. Your mind fills in the blanks, so to speak. Nobody is immune to this, I am an optimist, a revolutionary optimist. I have to hold onto hope to move forward, and do my best to temper that with sober and grounded analysis. Optimism is a revolutionary feeling, pessimism leads to nihilism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (1 child) I’m referring to someone whose own pessimism causes them to see negativity where there is no actual basis for it. Yes, you described that guy accurately. And that’s hardly surprising, because in this world, he has no choice but to be a sociopath. As for the idea that I might be talking nonsense—that’s unlikely; I have far too much practical life experience to spout complete rubbish. I’ve clawed my way to the top three times in my life, only to hit rock bottom again. Right now, I’m at the bottom once more. Would you be an optimist if you were in my shoes, Comrade? ... ))) And please, don’t tell me that I’m the one to blame for it all, rather than the way life is set up! I am an optimist, a revolutionary optimist. You just got lucky, Comrade! I'm happy for you. I was just like that once, too. I have to hold onto hope to move forward, and do my best to temper that with sober and grounded analysis. Yes, it's Dostoevsky: The most terrible thing is when a person has nowhere to go. This quote reflects one of Fyodor Dostoevsky's most haunting themes: the crushing despair of total alienation and the human necessity for purpose. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago I don't mean it as a moral condemnation, or an expectation to be "better," but as an explanation for why we are in disagreement on certain aspects. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (6 children) It's certainly true that mistakes in work and management exaggerated the impacts of natural disaster. This did result in making a naturally occurring famine worse, similar to what happened in the 1930s soviet famine. However, between 1949 and 1978, agriculture was dramatically overhauled and succeeded in achieving food security, ending famine in a region where famine was historically common (again, similar to the 1930s soviet famine). Was the Great Leap Forward a clear success? No, not necessarily. Over-enthusiasm and mistakes in work magnified the impact of weather disaster. Millions did die. However, these mistakes were rectified, and agriculture was successfully advanced. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (4 children) Similar to the soviet experience, Chinese workers are holding their heads high in new stages in socialist construction, with simiarly rapid levels of development. Anecdotes aside, this experience is common among both China and the USSR. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (1 child) You could be correct, but we would never know. If only people in the USSR back then had known what they stood to lose... permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago Agreed. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (2 replies) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (10 replies) load more comments (2 replies) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (60 children) Stalin was correct about industrialization in the 1930s, especially considering the external conditions and environment the soviets found themselves in. The incredible rates of industrialization were unprecedented in history, and the fact that industrialization was completed is why the heroic Red Army was equipped and able to defeat the Nazi menace. Mao's economy was also fantastic at getting rapid growth. Under Mao, life expectancy similarly doubled, and production was rapidly expanding. At the same time, growth was unstable, and many areas were lagging behind. What the CPC identified as lacking was on the technological front, as well as the productive forces in general. Deng's advancements did not overturn what Mao had created, they built upon it. While Stalin's artels were effective, and I was unaware of many of their specifics as you have now pointed out to me (thank you, by the way), they still did not have the same impact of undermining western production and accelerating technology transfer that Reform and Opening Up brought. I do not care for the "soul" being tarnished, the fact of the matter is that western technology is no longer a monopoly to hold on the world and enforce unequal exchange, and now China is eroding the foundations of modern imperialism and neocolonialism. As for Khrushchev, I do not deny the benefits of the Krushchevkas and other advancements. However, I called Khrushchev a snake, because the snake had venom. In casting Stalin to hell, he created a sense of historical nihilism. His insistence that the USSR had abolished class was also shortsighted. These fundamental errors weakened the CPSU, and created the foundation for further errors in Gorbachev's reforms. The CPC watched and refused to make the same mistakes. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 60 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (58 children) The NEP was forged in the context of a highly undeveloped Russia, with a necessity to uplift agriculture as soon as possible so as to rapidly improve industry. The hatred of the people towards the NEPmen was understandable, but a clear reading of the historical material conditions reveals that it was necessary. As long as the socialist state holds the commanding heights of industry, and maintains a vigilant eye towards any organized political resistance from the petite bourgeoisie and bourgeoisie, markets can be a complementary part to the broader socialist system in developing underdeveloped areas. As for Mao's economy, it was again rapid industrialization. The problem with Mao's economy was that growth was uneven and unstable. Deng Xiaoping's reforms stabilized and slightly accelerated development. You'll get no argument from me that killing off the sparrows was wrong, but knowledge of agronomics was very low comparatively in China, and thus this mistake was not repeated as their knowledge advanced. I also am not a fan of the sino-soviet split. I do not believe Mao to have been blameless for it, however, Khrushchev's venom was correctly called out by Mao. Just as Mao wasn't permanently good, so too was Khrushchev not permanently bad, but there's good reason why Khrushchev's actions enabled Gorbachev's, which enabled Yeltsin's. Regarding technology transfer, certainly you can see that Chinese manufacturing is now more advanced than soviet manufacturing. In becoming the world's factory, they not only copied western tech, but totally owned the entire production process, and now are using it to advance and develop further. There is a qualitative difference between reverse engineering every single thing you copy, and being able to simply copy what you're already manufacturing. All in all, I understand that I am not Russian. I am indeed a westerner, damned as I may be. However, I truly believe that I can recognize both the Chinese and Soviet approaches as immensely positive forces, and hope that Russia returns to socialism within my lifetime. I long to see the western empire fall, and I am happy to see existing socialist countries advance forward into the future despite western flailing. The west has fallen into China's trap, and it is too late to leave. What we are witnessing is a cornered beast that has already lost, and is throwing a fit in the aftermath. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 58 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (24 children) I want to make it clear, I am aware the Soviets had incredible technology that the west did not even have, at least for a time. My point regarding China's Socialist Market Economy is that the process of technology transfer happens faster, more completely, and is now being phased out in favor of new Chinese tech that in many fields is advanced beyond the west. China's socialist market economy is not a permanent strategy, but instead a tactical decision in a longer battle, and that's why the birdcage is closing. As for the cornered beast, I am referring to America. Russia certainly has a real need to return to socialism, but America is the one on its way out. And yes, the hatred of America is real, even liberals are beginning to detest America (though of course they will repeat nonsense about communism until they turn blue in the face). The Empire is dying. It can certainly lash out violently, but it cannot and will not save itself. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 24 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (22 children) One could say that the reason the Soviets could not get the same western investment is because of the differences between the soviet system and the Chinese system. This is why it's best not to look at socialism like a static formula, but a science with options and tradeoffs. China's decision came with good and bad, the soviet decision came with good and bad, the correct decision is only truly identifiable in hindsight. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 22 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (19 children) Stalin also made errors and mistakes in socialist construction. You are overweighting Mao's mistakes and ignoring the successes under Mao, the establishment and solidification of socialism in China. The modern CPC has learned from both the successes and mistakes of both Stalin and Mao, while the CPSU decayed. As much as I wish the USSR had not dissolved, it did, and we are in the aftermath of such a tragedy. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 19 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (13 children) I believe you are mistaken, comrade. I am not actually Nikita Khrushchev nor am I Mao Zedong. Any "double-standard" you see with Deng Xiaoping's Reform and Opening Up as a result of problems with the late Mao era and the Gang of Four must be considered from that context, and not merely from one aspect of Mao's critique of Khrushchev's policy before the Gang of Four era. Regarding the Gang of Four, they were largely an extension of Mao's incorrect lines towards the end of his life, without most of his positive lines. Deng Xiaoping corrected the course for the new era of development, having inherited a basically industrialized economy but with widespread poverty and backwards technology. As for China outmaneuvering the west, I agree. This is pretty plainly what happened, despite what the west thought they could get away with, China maintained a dictatorship of the proletariat and maintained political control in the socialist market economy. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 13 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (9 children) It's widely acknowledged that the later Mao era and the era of the Gang of Four was filled with mistakes, and that Reform & Opening Up was a course correction. You may call this "double standards," but learning from mistakes when practice doesn't live up to expectations is how we grow. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 9 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (8 children) It’s widely acknowledged that the later Mao We’ve finally reached a consensus, Comrade! There’s just a slight discrepancy regarding the dates. You say the late Mao era began in 1968, whereas I maintain that the late Mao era you’re referring to actually began after Stalin’s death. Let me just clarify one more thing: from 1950 onwards—after suffering four strokes—Stalin didn’t really make any major decisions in the country. A triumvirate was formed—Malenkov, Beria, and Molotov—to prepare all key state projects, while Stalin merely affixed the final approval. So, in essence, Stalin had already died back in 1950. If we settle on a middle ground... say, 1959—would that work for you, Comrade?... )))) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (7 children) I don't think we are going to come to an agreement here. I wouldn't put a hard date on it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (6 children) Comrade, just so you know: if I use ")))", it means I'm joking. Of course, one shouldn't date events that way. I wanted to highlight the fact that you agreed with me on at least one thing!))) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (5 children) I understand )))! Just not used to seeing it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (4 children) When you see that ")))", you’ll realize you’re talking to a Russian or a Russian speaker. Okay, in that case, let’s talk about humor. Let’s talk about folklore. Folklore isn't about the state; it’s about the people. Folklore reflects the collective mindset of the people—I think you’d agree with that... Vox populi, vox Dei. Here’s a Soviet-era joke; these few lines capture the whole essence: "To launch a satellite, the Chinese formed a human pyramid a thousand stories high, but it collapsed because the guy on the three-hundred-and-seventeenth floor hadn't properly mastered Mao's Little Red Book." You’re an intelligent person, so you surely understand that my views were formed back in early childhood. It’s something ingrained at a subconscious level. So, please forgive me for my past stubbornness. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (3 children) I understand and can empathize with your views, I just have disagreements on certain aspects. These of course are colored by both of our upbringings, you within the Soviet Union and me entirely disconnected from socialism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (2 children) I very often fill gaps in my theoretical knowledge with personal experience—please forgive me for that! I would also like to note that the interpretation of Marx's theory in the USSR was somewhat simplified. For instance, the USSR acknowledged the existence of a primitive communal system but not the "Asiatic mode of production." I only heard about the latter recently. I would like to highlight this aspect; perhaps the key to what is currently happening in China lies there. Given that my knowledge of Marx's theory is superficial—and considering that Marx did not outline a precise model for constructing socialism (his work was largely a theoretical analysis of capitalism and its consequences)—it is worth noting that philosophy never sets concrete tasks for the individual. Regarding your view of Marx's philosophy, I can also point out an inaccuracy. You state that Marx envisioned the construction of socialism only within the context of developed capitalism, based on highly advanced productive forces. However, that is not entirely the case. In a letter to Vera Zasulich (dated March 8, 1881), https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%83%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%87,_%D0%92%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B0_%D0%98%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BD%D0%B0 Karl Marx stated that Russia could bypass the painful stage of capitalism. He emphasized that his theory was not a universal historical prescription and that the Russian peasant commune could, under certain conditions, become the nucleus of socialist development. Marx told Zasulich at the time that education was one of the most crucial factors in the possibility of bypassing the agonizing stage of capitalism. The bottom line is this: Lenin and Trotsky supported the NEP, whereas Stalin sided with "Zasulich." Stalin turned out to be entirely right, and he did not deviate from Marx's theory by even a millimeter. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] timdrake@lemmy.ml 1 point 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) In the preface to the 1882 Russian edition of the Manifesto, Marx and Engels say that the Russian commune could “pass directly to the higher form of Communist common ownership” only if the Russian Revolution (which he saw as inevitable, though it was not inevitable that it would "take[] place in time" (first draft of letter to Zasulich), and in the Letter to Otecestvenniye Zapisky he says that if Russia continues on its path, it will have lost this chance to skip the phase of capitalist development) is supported by wider revolution in the West. Otherwise, the Russian commune “must [] first pass through the same process of dissolution such as constitutes the historical evolution of the West.” There’s zero approval by Marx here for the notion of skipping the phase of private production/property in one country without a wider revolution. Marx told Zasulich at the time that education was one of the most crucial factors in the possibility of bypassing the agonizing stage of capitalism. No he didn’t. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago You misinterpret Marx's statement. I'm fully aware of Marx's views on the Russian commune movement, the problem is that you assume the Soviet model is what Marx was referring to, and that a more classically Marxist understanding of socialism was not what he meant. Marx was fairly explicit in what a socialist state would be, one where public ownership is principal and the working classes control the state. The Russian peasantry could have bypassed the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie and went straight to a dictatorship of the proletariat and peasantry, but they would not be able to avoid the problem of transitioning small ownership to large, industrialized ownership without the aid of markets. The fact of the matter is that private property existed de facto in the USSR. One of the mistakes of former socialism was merely trying to punish private ownership, rather than subordinate it to the public sector. Marx analyzed markets as being enormously useful in stitching together all of the small owners and building up productive forces, and public ownership as being superior at running large industry. Stalin ending the NEP early was a matter of survival, and was correct. China's conditions are different, and now occupies a more classically Marxist economy. It isn't even the same as the NEP, China was closer to the NEP under Mao, the socialist market economy of China is a more classically Marxist economy, with the ability to be so precisely because the imperialists cannot afford to decouple from them. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (3 replies) load more comments (5 replies) load more comments (2 replies) load more comments (1 reply) [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (30 children) Abolishing the NEP in the USSR and moving onto more planned economy ended up being beneficial. However, in the case of China, the NEP-inspired socialist market economy is the reason China is where they are today. New contradictions have arisen, which is of course a gamble, but with that came highly developed productive forces and tight interconnection with the global economy. This has allowed the PRC to reach where the USSR could not, and the developed productive forces are forming the basis of the newly emerging, more planned economy. As for Mao, China was horribly underdeveloped. Many of his mistakes were in dealing with such an environment, knowledge of agronomics was low and industrialization was non-existent. Under Mao, a solid socialist base was laid out, which managed to created the basis for the modern economy. As for the Sino-Soviet split, it's a tragedy, and was avoidable. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 30 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (12 children) I'm not denying that China has shortcomings. I believe you are magnifying them beyond their actual levels. As for Cheng Enfu's diagram, it essentially describes increasing planning and decreasing marketization over time. Marketization helps socialize production, and over time this is reigned in, creating a fully planned economy. As for Mao Zedong Thought, some aspects have applicability elsewhere. The Mass Line is a generally useful tactic, Protracted People's War can be useful in largely agrarian countries with high peasant populations and smaller urban centers, and so forth. It isn't universal, but Mao Zedong Thought works well for China and tactics from it have seen success in the global south, including in Vietnam. As for your insinuation that there are privledged people in China, yes, this is true. This is a side-effect of the socialist market economy. It's a tradeoff, an inefficiency that serves as a sort of price for the positive aspects of the socialist market economy. Excessive luxury is being cracked down on, and as China's socialist system develops, obscene wealth is being diminished while absolute wealth rises for the average worker. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 12 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (10 children) I never said Mao did not rely heavily on the USSR, so I will largely ignore those points as we do not really disagree. Regarding the Mass Line, it is essentially the tactic of taking policy from the people, and having the party reinterpret it and enact it accordingly. It is a way to avoid commandism and tailism, and has been applied by various ML or Maoist parties. Maoists tend to believe it is universal, while MLs tend to believe it is particular to certain conditions similar to China's experience. As for cracking down on excessive luxury, one example is the censorship of flaunting wealth on social media, and punishing those found guilty of corruption, taking bribes, etc. In China, the number of billionaires is decreasing, as the NEP-style economy is transitioning to a more advanced planned economy gradually. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (8 children) I'm aware that Mao believed that. That's why the narrative that Deng Xiaoping "backstabbed" socialism is false, Reform & Opening Up was a continuation of the economic basis laid out by Mao. As for cracking down on flaunting wealth, if your impression is already highly skeptical of China, it can seem that it's only to hide it from the public. A more comprehensive view of China, however, reveals it to not be mere rhetoric but the outcome of having both a socialist state and the contradictions rising from marketization. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (7 children) I’m aware that Mao believed that. Yes, exactly! That is the main argument—held by the Chinese themselves, by Western socialists (Trotskyists), and by the "new breed" of Western socialists (like you): that China fell out with the USSR because Khrushchev pursued a policy of "openness." But I keep telling you all that this isn't true, and it wasn't about Stalin! The reason was something else entirely. Relations between Khrushchev and Mao deteriorated completely after Mao asked the USSR to build a nuclear submarine fleet for China. Khrushchev agreed, but with the stipulation that the fleet would be a joint venture and based in Soviet Far Eastern ports. For some reason, Mao took great offense at this and refused. Now you can see just how brazen Mao was. These are all matters of public record; you can read about it yourself. I believe the reason for the rift was that, after Stalin's death, Mao considered himself the world's leading socialist—superior to the others and capable of handling everything on his own. He did not view Khrushchev as his equal. We saw how that turned out. As for cracking down on flaunting wealth, if your impression is already highly skeptical of China, it can seem that it’s only to hide it from the public. Yes, I know the statistics: wage growth in China is 4–6% annually. But I’m not convinced that wages are rising only for the poor—or that the 4–6% gains belonging to the middle and upper classes are being taken away and redistributed to China’s lower-income population. Show me the data on that trend, and then I’ll agree with you. I’d like to see statistics for these companies: JD.com: The revenue leader among China’s private enterprises, generating around 1.16 trillion yuan annually. Alibaba Group: JD.com’s main rival in the e-commerce market, showing steady growth driven by logistics and international expansion. ByteDance (owner of TikTok): The fastest-growing brand and largest private tech corporation. According to analyst reports, its brand value grew by 45% in a single year, reaching $153.5 billion. In cases where profits surged by 45% (an increase of 70 billion per year), exactly how much of that actually went to the poorer segments of the population? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (6 children) I think you're reading more into my position than I have stated myself. I understand that Mao was not innocent within the split, neither were the soviets. That's why I have stated that the split was a tragedy and should have been avoided had both sides statesmen been competent enough. As for statistics on wealth over time, you can even see western articles framing this crackdown in "scary language." The trend is gradual, but it isn't nonexistent either. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (5 children) I think you’re reading more into my position than I have stated myself. Yes, Comrade, you’re right. It’s a very painful subject for me. To me, this is just like Solzhenitsyn’s The Gulag Archipelago, a work that slandered and humiliated the entire Soviet ideology. Both have fostered a distorted view of the Soviet era. They have given rise to all sorts of false theories that are published and circulated worldwide on a massive scale. Yet the Soviet soul is all I have left in life now. I am being bombed every night, but I live in the past—I live on memories... As for statistics on wealth over time, you can even see western articles framing this crackdown in “scary language.” The trend is gradual, but it isn’t nonexistent either. Ma crossed a red line; Xi decided that the oligarchs were becoming a threat to him... though he seems to have realized this rather late. We can certainly see Ma’s attempt to meddle in state affairs. People used to tell me that China has no oligarchs because Chinese billionaires don't interfere in government business. Yet, I highly doubt that was the first time Ma had meddled in state affairs—after all, he is a long-standing Communist Party member. To be honest, Comrade, what is actually happening in China is a closely guarded secret. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (4 children) Again, I think you're reading the situation through pessimistic hermeneutics, seeing what isn't actually there as present based on pessimism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (3 children) That’s an interesting way to put it. Are you referring to Cervantes and the windmills? My subjective pessimism stems from the fact that I’ve lost faith in my own future—my personal future. It’s just that, due to certain circumstances, I reached a point where I lost hope for what lies ahead. I’ve come to terms with that now. As for objective pessimism, that has nothing to do with my personal outlook. If you like, you could call it dialectics in its most extreme form... ))))) But seriously, Comrade, when was the last time you saw someone looking toward humanity's future with confidence and optimism—without any illusions? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (2 children) I'm referring to someone whose own pessimism causes them to see negativity where there is no actual basis for it. Your mind fills in the blanks, so to speak. Nobody is immune to this, I am an optimist, a revolutionary optimist. I have to hold onto hope to move forward, and do my best to temper that with sober and grounded analysis. Optimism is a revolutionary feeling, pessimism leads to nihilism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (1 child) I’m referring to someone whose own pessimism causes them to see negativity where there is no actual basis for it. Yes, you described that guy accurately. And that’s hardly surprising, because in this world, he has no choice but to be a sociopath. As for the idea that I might be talking nonsense—that’s unlikely; I have far too much practical life experience to spout complete rubbish. I’ve clawed my way to the top three times in my life, only to hit rock bottom again. Right now, I’m at the bottom once more. Would you be an optimist if you were in my shoes, Comrade? ... ))) And please, don’t tell me that I’m the one to blame for it all, rather than the way life is set up! I am an optimist, a revolutionary optimist. You just got lucky, Comrade! I'm happy for you. I was just like that once, too. I have to hold onto hope to move forward, and do my best to temper that with sober and grounded analysis. Yes, it's Dostoevsky: The most terrible thing is when a person has nowhere to go. This quote reflects one of Fyodor Dostoevsky's most haunting themes: the crushing despair of total alienation and the human necessity for purpose. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago I don't mean it as a moral condemnation, or an expectation to be "better," but as an explanation for why we are in disagreement on certain aspects. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (6 children) It's certainly true that mistakes in work and management exaggerated the impacts of natural disaster. This did result in making a naturally occurring famine worse, similar to what happened in the 1930s soviet famine. However, between 1949 and 1978, agriculture was dramatically overhauled and succeeded in achieving food security, ending famine in a region where famine was historically common (again, similar to the 1930s soviet famine). Was the Great Leap Forward a clear success? No, not necessarily. Over-enthusiasm and mistakes in work magnified the impact of weather disaster. Millions did die. However, these mistakes were rectified, and agriculture was successfully advanced. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (4 children) Similar to the soviet experience, Chinese workers are holding their heads high in new stages in socialist construction, with simiarly rapid levels of development. Anecdotes aside, this experience is common among both China and the USSR. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (1 child) You could be correct, but we would never know. If only people in the USSR back then had known what they stood to lose... permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago Agreed. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (2 replies) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (10 replies) load more comments (2 replies) load more comments (1 reply)
[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (60 children) Stalin was correct about industrialization in the 1930s, especially considering the external conditions and environment the soviets found themselves in. The incredible rates of industrialization were unprecedented in history, and the fact that industrialization was completed is why the heroic Red Army was equipped and able to defeat the Nazi menace. Mao's economy was also fantastic at getting rapid growth. Under Mao, life expectancy similarly doubled, and production was rapidly expanding. At the same time, growth was unstable, and many areas were lagging behind. What the CPC identified as lacking was on the technological front, as well as the productive forces in general. Deng's advancements did not overturn what Mao had created, they built upon it. While Stalin's artels were effective, and I was unaware of many of their specifics as you have now pointed out to me (thank you, by the way), they still did not have the same impact of undermining western production and accelerating technology transfer that Reform and Opening Up brought. I do not care for the "soul" being tarnished, the fact of the matter is that western technology is no longer a monopoly to hold on the world and enforce unequal exchange, and now China is eroding the foundations of modern imperialism and neocolonialism. As for Khrushchev, I do not deny the benefits of the Krushchevkas and other advancements. However, I called Khrushchev a snake, because the snake had venom. In casting Stalin to hell, he created a sense of historical nihilism. His insistence that the USSR had abolished class was also shortsighted. These fundamental errors weakened the CPSU, and created the foundation for further errors in Gorbachev's reforms. The CPC watched and refused to make the same mistakes. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 60 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (58 children) The NEP was forged in the context of a highly undeveloped Russia, with a necessity to uplift agriculture as soon as possible so as to rapidly improve industry. The hatred of the people towards the NEPmen was understandable, but a clear reading of the historical material conditions reveals that it was necessary. As long as the socialist state holds the commanding heights of industry, and maintains a vigilant eye towards any organized political resistance from the petite bourgeoisie and bourgeoisie, markets can be a complementary part to the broader socialist system in developing underdeveloped areas. As for Mao's economy, it was again rapid industrialization. The problem with Mao's economy was that growth was uneven and unstable. Deng Xiaoping's reforms stabilized and slightly accelerated development. You'll get no argument from me that killing off the sparrows was wrong, but knowledge of agronomics was very low comparatively in China, and thus this mistake was not repeated as their knowledge advanced. I also am not a fan of the sino-soviet split. I do not believe Mao to have been blameless for it, however, Khrushchev's venom was correctly called out by Mao. Just as Mao wasn't permanently good, so too was Khrushchev not permanently bad, but there's good reason why Khrushchev's actions enabled Gorbachev's, which enabled Yeltsin's. Regarding technology transfer, certainly you can see that Chinese manufacturing is now more advanced than soviet manufacturing. In becoming the world's factory, they not only copied western tech, but totally owned the entire production process, and now are using it to advance and develop further. There is a qualitative difference between reverse engineering every single thing you copy, and being able to simply copy what you're already manufacturing. All in all, I understand that I am not Russian. I am indeed a westerner, damned as I may be. However, I truly believe that I can recognize both the Chinese and Soviet approaches as immensely positive forces, and hope that Russia returns to socialism within my lifetime. I long to see the western empire fall, and I am happy to see existing socialist countries advance forward into the future despite western flailing. The west has fallen into China's trap, and it is too late to leave. What we are witnessing is a cornered beast that has already lost, and is throwing a fit in the aftermath. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 58 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (24 children) I want to make it clear, I am aware the Soviets had incredible technology that the west did not even have, at least for a time. My point regarding China's Socialist Market Economy is that the process of technology transfer happens faster, more completely, and is now being phased out in favor of new Chinese tech that in many fields is advanced beyond the west. China's socialist market economy is not a permanent strategy, but instead a tactical decision in a longer battle, and that's why the birdcage is closing. As for the cornered beast, I am referring to America. Russia certainly has a real need to return to socialism, but America is the one on its way out. And yes, the hatred of America is real, even liberals are beginning to detest America (though of course they will repeat nonsense about communism until they turn blue in the face). The Empire is dying. It can certainly lash out violently, but it cannot and will not save itself. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 24 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (22 children) One could say that the reason the Soviets could not get the same western investment is because of the differences between the soviet system and the Chinese system. This is why it's best not to look at socialism like a static formula, but a science with options and tradeoffs. China's decision came with good and bad, the soviet decision came with good and bad, the correct decision is only truly identifiable in hindsight. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 22 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (19 children) Stalin also made errors and mistakes in socialist construction. You are overweighting Mao's mistakes and ignoring the successes under Mao, the establishment and solidification of socialism in China. The modern CPC has learned from both the successes and mistakes of both Stalin and Mao, while the CPSU decayed. As much as I wish the USSR had not dissolved, it did, and we are in the aftermath of such a tragedy. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 19 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (13 children) I believe you are mistaken, comrade. I am not actually Nikita Khrushchev nor am I Mao Zedong. Any "double-standard" you see with Deng Xiaoping's Reform and Opening Up as a result of problems with the late Mao era and the Gang of Four must be considered from that context, and not merely from one aspect of Mao's critique of Khrushchev's policy before the Gang of Four era. Regarding the Gang of Four, they were largely an extension of Mao's incorrect lines towards the end of his life, without most of his positive lines. Deng Xiaoping corrected the course for the new era of development, having inherited a basically industrialized economy but with widespread poverty and backwards technology. As for China outmaneuvering the west, I agree. This is pretty plainly what happened, despite what the west thought they could get away with, China maintained a dictatorship of the proletariat and maintained political control in the socialist market economy. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 13 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (9 children) It's widely acknowledged that the later Mao era and the era of the Gang of Four was filled with mistakes, and that Reform & Opening Up was a course correction. You may call this "double standards," but learning from mistakes when practice doesn't live up to expectations is how we grow. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 9 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (8 children) It’s widely acknowledged that the later Mao We’ve finally reached a consensus, Comrade! There’s just a slight discrepancy regarding the dates. You say the late Mao era began in 1968, whereas I maintain that the late Mao era you’re referring to actually began after Stalin’s death. Let me just clarify one more thing: from 1950 onwards—after suffering four strokes—Stalin didn’t really make any major decisions in the country. A triumvirate was formed—Malenkov, Beria, and Molotov—to prepare all key state projects, while Stalin merely affixed the final approval. So, in essence, Stalin had already died back in 1950. If we settle on a middle ground... say, 1959—would that work for you, Comrade?... )))) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (7 children) I don't think we are going to come to an agreement here. I wouldn't put a hard date on it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (6 children) Comrade, just so you know: if I use ")))", it means I'm joking. Of course, one shouldn't date events that way. I wanted to highlight the fact that you agreed with me on at least one thing!))) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (5 children) I understand )))! Just not used to seeing it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (4 children) When you see that ")))", you’ll realize you’re talking to a Russian or a Russian speaker. Okay, in that case, let’s talk about humor. Let’s talk about folklore. Folklore isn't about the state; it’s about the people. Folklore reflects the collective mindset of the people—I think you’d agree with that... Vox populi, vox Dei. Here’s a Soviet-era joke; these few lines capture the whole essence: "To launch a satellite, the Chinese formed a human pyramid a thousand stories high, but it collapsed because the guy on the three-hundred-and-seventeenth floor hadn't properly mastered Mao's Little Red Book." You’re an intelligent person, so you surely understand that my views were formed back in early childhood. It’s something ingrained at a subconscious level. So, please forgive me for my past stubbornness. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (3 children) I understand and can empathize with your views, I just have disagreements on certain aspects. These of course are colored by both of our upbringings, you within the Soviet Union and me entirely disconnected from socialism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (2 children) I very often fill gaps in my theoretical knowledge with personal experience—please forgive me for that! I would also like to note that the interpretation of Marx's theory in the USSR was somewhat simplified. For instance, the USSR acknowledged the existence of a primitive communal system but not the "Asiatic mode of production." I only heard about the latter recently. I would like to highlight this aspect; perhaps the key to what is currently happening in China lies there. Given that my knowledge of Marx's theory is superficial—and considering that Marx did not outline a precise model for constructing socialism (his work was largely a theoretical analysis of capitalism and its consequences)—it is worth noting that philosophy never sets concrete tasks for the individual. Regarding your view of Marx's philosophy, I can also point out an inaccuracy. You state that Marx envisioned the construction of socialism only within the context of developed capitalism, based on highly advanced productive forces. However, that is not entirely the case. In a letter to Vera Zasulich (dated March 8, 1881), https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%83%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%87,_%D0%92%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B0_%D0%98%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BD%D0%B0 Karl Marx stated that Russia could bypass the painful stage of capitalism. He emphasized that his theory was not a universal historical prescription and that the Russian peasant commune could, under certain conditions, become the nucleus of socialist development. Marx told Zasulich at the time that education was one of the most crucial factors in the possibility of bypassing the agonizing stage of capitalism. The bottom line is this: Lenin and Trotsky supported the NEP, whereas Stalin sided with "Zasulich." Stalin turned out to be entirely right, and he did not deviate from Marx's theory by even a millimeter. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] timdrake@lemmy.ml 1 point 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) In the preface to the 1882 Russian edition of the Manifesto, Marx and Engels say that the Russian commune could “pass directly to the higher form of Communist common ownership” only if the Russian Revolution (which he saw as inevitable, though it was not inevitable that it would "take[] place in time" (first draft of letter to Zasulich), and in the Letter to Otecestvenniye Zapisky he says that if Russia continues on its path, it will have lost this chance to skip the phase of capitalist development) is supported by wider revolution in the West. Otherwise, the Russian commune “must [] first pass through the same process of dissolution such as constitutes the historical evolution of the West.” There’s zero approval by Marx here for the notion of skipping the phase of private production/property in one country without a wider revolution. Marx told Zasulich at the time that education was one of the most crucial factors in the possibility of bypassing the agonizing stage of capitalism. No he didn’t. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago You misinterpret Marx's statement. I'm fully aware of Marx's views on the Russian commune movement, the problem is that you assume the Soviet model is what Marx was referring to, and that a more classically Marxist understanding of socialism was not what he meant. Marx was fairly explicit in what a socialist state would be, one where public ownership is principal and the working classes control the state. The Russian peasantry could have bypassed the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie and went straight to a dictatorship of the proletariat and peasantry, but they would not be able to avoid the problem of transitioning small ownership to large, industrialized ownership without the aid of markets. The fact of the matter is that private property existed de facto in the USSR. One of the mistakes of former socialism was merely trying to punish private ownership, rather than subordinate it to the public sector. Marx analyzed markets as being enormously useful in stitching together all of the small owners and building up productive forces, and public ownership as being superior at running large industry. Stalin ending the NEP early was a matter of survival, and was correct. China's conditions are different, and now occupies a more classically Marxist economy. It isn't even the same as the NEP, China was closer to the NEP under Mao, the socialist market economy of China is a more classically Marxist economy, with the ability to be so precisely because the imperialists cannot afford to decouple from them. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (3 replies) load more comments (5 replies) load more comments (2 replies) load more comments (1 reply) [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (30 children) Abolishing the NEP in the USSR and moving onto more planned economy ended up being beneficial. However, in the case of China, the NEP-inspired socialist market economy is the reason China is where they are today. New contradictions have arisen, which is of course a gamble, but with that came highly developed productive forces and tight interconnection with the global economy. This has allowed the PRC to reach where the USSR could not, and the developed productive forces are forming the basis of the newly emerging, more planned economy. As for Mao, China was horribly underdeveloped. Many of his mistakes were in dealing with such an environment, knowledge of agronomics was low and industrialization was non-existent. Under Mao, a solid socialist base was laid out, which managed to created the basis for the modern economy. As for the Sino-Soviet split, it's a tragedy, and was avoidable. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 30 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (12 children) I'm not denying that China has shortcomings. I believe you are magnifying them beyond their actual levels. As for Cheng Enfu's diagram, it essentially describes increasing planning and decreasing marketization over time. Marketization helps socialize production, and over time this is reigned in, creating a fully planned economy. As for Mao Zedong Thought, some aspects have applicability elsewhere. The Mass Line is a generally useful tactic, Protracted People's War can be useful in largely agrarian countries with high peasant populations and smaller urban centers, and so forth. It isn't universal, but Mao Zedong Thought works well for China and tactics from it have seen success in the global south, including in Vietnam. As for your insinuation that there are privledged people in China, yes, this is true. This is a side-effect of the socialist market economy. It's a tradeoff, an inefficiency that serves as a sort of price for the positive aspects of the socialist market economy. Excessive luxury is being cracked down on, and as China's socialist system develops, obscene wealth is being diminished while absolute wealth rises for the average worker. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 12 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (10 children) I never said Mao did not rely heavily on the USSR, so I will largely ignore those points as we do not really disagree. Regarding the Mass Line, it is essentially the tactic of taking policy from the people, and having the party reinterpret it and enact it accordingly. It is a way to avoid commandism and tailism, and has been applied by various ML or Maoist parties. Maoists tend to believe it is universal, while MLs tend to believe it is particular to certain conditions similar to China's experience. As for cracking down on excessive luxury, one example is the censorship of flaunting wealth on social media, and punishing those found guilty of corruption, taking bribes, etc. In China, the number of billionaires is decreasing, as the NEP-style economy is transitioning to a more advanced planned economy gradually. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (8 children) I'm aware that Mao believed that. That's why the narrative that Deng Xiaoping "backstabbed" socialism is false, Reform & Opening Up was a continuation of the economic basis laid out by Mao. As for cracking down on flaunting wealth, if your impression is already highly skeptical of China, it can seem that it's only to hide it from the public. A more comprehensive view of China, however, reveals it to not be mere rhetoric but the outcome of having both a socialist state and the contradictions rising from marketization. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (7 children) I’m aware that Mao believed that. Yes, exactly! That is the main argument—held by the Chinese themselves, by Western socialists (Trotskyists), and by the "new breed" of Western socialists (like you): that China fell out with the USSR because Khrushchev pursued a policy of "openness." But I keep telling you all that this isn't true, and it wasn't about Stalin! The reason was something else entirely. Relations between Khrushchev and Mao deteriorated completely after Mao asked the USSR to build a nuclear submarine fleet for China. Khrushchev agreed, but with the stipulation that the fleet would be a joint venture and based in Soviet Far Eastern ports. For some reason, Mao took great offense at this and refused. Now you can see just how brazen Mao was. These are all matters of public record; you can read about it yourself. I believe the reason for the rift was that, after Stalin's death, Mao considered himself the world's leading socialist—superior to the others and capable of handling everything on his own. He did not view Khrushchev as his equal. We saw how that turned out. As for cracking down on flaunting wealth, if your impression is already highly skeptical of China, it can seem that it’s only to hide it from the public. Yes, I know the statistics: wage growth in China is 4–6% annually. But I’m not convinced that wages are rising only for the poor—or that the 4–6% gains belonging to the middle and upper classes are being taken away and redistributed to China’s lower-income population. Show me the data on that trend, and then I’ll agree with you. I’d like to see statistics for these companies: JD.com: The revenue leader among China’s private enterprises, generating around 1.16 trillion yuan annually. Alibaba Group: JD.com’s main rival in the e-commerce market, showing steady growth driven by logistics and international expansion. ByteDance (owner of TikTok): The fastest-growing brand and largest private tech corporation. According to analyst reports, its brand value grew by 45% in a single year, reaching $153.5 billion. In cases where profits surged by 45% (an increase of 70 billion per year), exactly how much of that actually went to the poorer segments of the population? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (6 children) I think you're reading more into my position than I have stated myself. I understand that Mao was not innocent within the split, neither were the soviets. That's why I have stated that the split was a tragedy and should have been avoided had both sides statesmen been competent enough. As for statistics on wealth over time, you can even see western articles framing this crackdown in "scary language." The trend is gradual, but it isn't nonexistent either. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (5 children) I think you’re reading more into my position than I have stated myself. Yes, Comrade, you’re right. It’s a very painful subject for me. To me, this is just like Solzhenitsyn’s The Gulag Archipelago, a work that slandered and humiliated the entire Soviet ideology. Both have fostered a distorted view of the Soviet era. They have given rise to all sorts of false theories that are published and circulated worldwide on a massive scale. Yet the Soviet soul is all I have left in life now. I am being bombed every night, but I live in the past—I live on memories... As for statistics on wealth over time, you can even see western articles framing this crackdown in “scary language.” The trend is gradual, but it isn’t nonexistent either. Ma crossed a red line; Xi decided that the oligarchs were becoming a threat to him... though he seems to have realized this rather late. We can certainly see Ma’s attempt to meddle in state affairs. People used to tell me that China has no oligarchs because Chinese billionaires don't interfere in government business. Yet, I highly doubt that was the first time Ma had meddled in state affairs—after all, he is a long-standing Communist Party member. To be honest, Comrade, what is actually happening in China is a closely guarded secret. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (4 children) Again, I think you're reading the situation through pessimistic hermeneutics, seeing what isn't actually there as present based on pessimism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (3 children) That’s an interesting way to put it. Are you referring to Cervantes and the windmills? My subjective pessimism stems from the fact that I’ve lost faith in my own future—my personal future. It’s just that, due to certain circumstances, I reached a point where I lost hope for what lies ahead. I’ve come to terms with that now. As for objective pessimism, that has nothing to do with my personal outlook. If you like, you could call it dialectics in its most extreme form... ))))) But seriously, Comrade, when was the last time you saw someone looking toward humanity's future with confidence and optimism—without any illusions? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (2 children) I'm referring to someone whose own pessimism causes them to see negativity where there is no actual basis for it. Your mind fills in the blanks, so to speak. Nobody is immune to this, I am an optimist, a revolutionary optimist. I have to hold onto hope to move forward, and do my best to temper that with sober and grounded analysis. Optimism is a revolutionary feeling, pessimism leads to nihilism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (1 child) I’m referring to someone whose own pessimism causes them to see negativity where there is no actual basis for it. Yes, you described that guy accurately. And that’s hardly surprising, because in this world, he has no choice but to be a sociopath. As for the idea that I might be talking nonsense—that’s unlikely; I have far too much practical life experience to spout complete rubbish. I’ve clawed my way to the top three times in my life, only to hit rock bottom again. Right now, I’m at the bottom once more. Would you be an optimist if you were in my shoes, Comrade? ... ))) And please, don’t tell me that I’m the one to blame for it all, rather than the way life is set up! I am an optimist, a revolutionary optimist. You just got lucky, Comrade! I'm happy for you. I was just like that once, too. I have to hold onto hope to move forward, and do my best to temper that with sober and grounded analysis. Yes, it's Dostoevsky: The most terrible thing is when a person has nowhere to go. This quote reflects one of Fyodor Dostoevsky's most haunting themes: the crushing despair of total alienation and the human necessity for purpose. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago I don't mean it as a moral condemnation, or an expectation to be "better," but as an explanation for why we are in disagreement on certain aspects. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (6 children) It's certainly true that mistakes in work and management exaggerated the impacts of natural disaster. This did result in making a naturally occurring famine worse, similar to what happened in the 1930s soviet famine. However, between 1949 and 1978, agriculture was dramatically overhauled and succeeded in achieving food security, ending famine in a region where famine was historically common (again, similar to the 1930s soviet famine). Was the Great Leap Forward a clear success? No, not necessarily. Over-enthusiasm and mistakes in work magnified the impact of weather disaster. Millions did die. However, these mistakes were rectified, and agriculture was successfully advanced. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (4 children) Similar to the soviet experience, Chinese workers are holding their heads high in new stages in socialist construction, with simiarly rapid levels of development. Anecdotes aside, this experience is common among both China and the USSR. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (1 child) You could be correct, but we would never know. If only people in the USSR back then had known what they stood to lose... permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago Agreed. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (2 replies) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (10 replies) load more comments (2 replies) load more comments (1 reply)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (58 children) The NEP was forged in the context of a highly undeveloped Russia, with a necessity to uplift agriculture as soon as possible so as to rapidly improve industry. The hatred of the people towards the NEPmen was understandable, but a clear reading of the historical material conditions reveals that it was necessary. As long as the socialist state holds the commanding heights of industry, and maintains a vigilant eye towards any organized political resistance from the petite bourgeoisie and bourgeoisie, markets can be a complementary part to the broader socialist system in developing underdeveloped areas. As for Mao's economy, it was again rapid industrialization. The problem with Mao's economy was that growth was uneven and unstable. Deng Xiaoping's reforms stabilized and slightly accelerated development. You'll get no argument from me that killing off the sparrows was wrong, but knowledge of agronomics was very low comparatively in China, and thus this mistake was not repeated as their knowledge advanced. I also am not a fan of the sino-soviet split. I do not believe Mao to have been blameless for it, however, Khrushchev's venom was correctly called out by Mao. Just as Mao wasn't permanently good, so too was Khrushchev not permanently bad, but there's good reason why Khrushchev's actions enabled Gorbachev's, which enabled Yeltsin's. Regarding technology transfer, certainly you can see that Chinese manufacturing is now more advanced than soviet manufacturing. In becoming the world's factory, they not only copied western tech, but totally owned the entire production process, and now are using it to advance and develop further. There is a qualitative difference between reverse engineering every single thing you copy, and being able to simply copy what you're already manufacturing. All in all, I understand that I am not Russian. I am indeed a westerner, damned as I may be. However, I truly believe that I can recognize both the Chinese and Soviet approaches as immensely positive forces, and hope that Russia returns to socialism within my lifetime. I long to see the western empire fall, and I am happy to see existing socialist countries advance forward into the future despite western flailing. The west has fallen into China's trap, and it is too late to leave. What we are witnessing is a cornered beast that has already lost, and is throwing a fit in the aftermath. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 58 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (24 children) I want to make it clear, I am aware the Soviets had incredible technology that the west did not even have, at least for a time. My point regarding China's Socialist Market Economy is that the process of technology transfer happens faster, more completely, and is now being phased out in favor of new Chinese tech that in many fields is advanced beyond the west. China's socialist market economy is not a permanent strategy, but instead a tactical decision in a longer battle, and that's why the birdcage is closing. As for the cornered beast, I am referring to America. Russia certainly has a real need to return to socialism, but America is the one on its way out. And yes, the hatred of America is real, even liberals are beginning to detest America (though of course they will repeat nonsense about communism until they turn blue in the face). The Empire is dying. It can certainly lash out violently, but it cannot and will not save itself. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 24 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (22 children) One could say that the reason the Soviets could not get the same western investment is because of the differences between the soviet system and the Chinese system. This is why it's best not to look at socialism like a static formula, but a science with options and tradeoffs. China's decision came with good and bad, the soviet decision came with good and bad, the correct decision is only truly identifiable in hindsight. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 22 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (19 children) Stalin also made errors and mistakes in socialist construction. You are overweighting Mao's mistakes and ignoring the successes under Mao, the establishment and solidification of socialism in China. The modern CPC has learned from both the successes and mistakes of both Stalin and Mao, while the CPSU decayed. As much as I wish the USSR had not dissolved, it did, and we are in the aftermath of such a tragedy. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 19 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (13 children) I believe you are mistaken, comrade. I am not actually Nikita Khrushchev nor am I Mao Zedong. Any "double-standard" you see with Deng Xiaoping's Reform and Opening Up as a result of problems with the late Mao era and the Gang of Four must be considered from that context, and not merely from one aspect of Mao's critique of Khrushchev's policy before the Gang of Four era. Regarding the Gang of Four, they were largely an extension of Mao's incorrect lines towards the end of his life, without most of his positive lines. Deng Xiaoping corrected the course for the new era of development, having inherited a basically industrialized economy but with widespread poverty and backwards technology. As for China outmaneuvering the west, I agree. This is pretty plainly what happened, despite what the west thought they could get away with, China maintained a dictatorship of the proletariat and maintained political control in the socialist market economy. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 13 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (9 children) It's widely acknowledged that the later Mao era and the era of the Gang of Four was filled with mistakes, and that Reform & Opening Up was a course correction. You may call this "double standards," but learning from mistakes when practice doesn't live up to expectations is how we grow. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 9 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (8 children) It’s widely acknowledged that the later Mao We’ve finally reached a consensus, Comrade! There’s just a slight discrepancy regarding the dates. You say the late Mao era began in 1968, whereas I maintain that the late Mao era you’re referring to actually began after Stalin’s death. Let me just clarify one more thing: from 1950 onwards—after suffering four strokes—Stalin didn’t really make any major decisions in the country. A triumvirate was formed—Malenkov, Beria, and Molotov—to prepare all key state projects, while Stalin merely affixed the final approval. So, in essence, Stalin had already died back in 1950. If we settle on a middle ground... say, 1959—would that work for you, Comrade?... )))) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (7 children) I don't think we are going to come to an agreement here. I wouldn't put a hard date on it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (6 children) Comrade, just so you know: if I use ")))", it means I'm joking. Of course, one shouldn't date events that way. I wanted to highlight the fact that you agreed with me on at least one thing!))) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (5 children) I understand )))! Just not used to seeing it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (4 children) When you see that ")))", you’ll realize you’re talking to a Russian or a Russian speaker. Okay, in that case, let’s talk about humor. Let’s talk about folklore. Folklore isn't about the state; it’s about the people. Folklore reflects the collective mindset of the people—I think you’d agree with that... Vox populi, vox Dei. Here’s a Soviet-era joke; these few lines capture the whole essence: "To launch a satellite, the Chinese formed a human pyramid a thousand stories high, but it collapsed because the guy on the three-hundred-and-seventeenth floor hadn't properly mastered Mao's Little Red Book." You’re an intelligent person, so you surely understand that my views were formed back in early childhood. It’s something ingrained at a subconscious level. So, please forgive me for my past stubbornness. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (3 children) I understand and can empathize with your views, I just have disagreements on certain aspects. These of course are colored by both of our upbringings, you within the Soviet Union and me entirely disconnected from socialism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (2 children) I very often fill gaps in my theoretical knowledge with personal experience—please forgive me for that! I would also like to note that the interpretation of Marx's theory in the USSR was somewhat simplified. For instance, the USSR acknowledged the existence of a primitive communal system but not the "Asiatic mode of production." I only heard about the latter recently. I would like to highlight this aspect; perhaps the key to what is currently happening in China lies there. Given that my knowledge of Marx's theory is superficial—and considering that Marx did not outline a precise model for constructing socialism (his work was largely a theoretical analysis of capitalism and its consequences)—it is worth noting that philosophy never sets concrete tasks for the individual. Regarding your view of Marx's philosophy, I can also point out an inaccuracy. You state that Marx envisioned the construction of socialism only within the context of developed capitalism, based on highly advanced productive forces. However, that is not entirely the case. In a letter to Vera Zasulich (dated March 8, 1881), https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%83%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%87,_%D0%92%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B0_%D0%98%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BD%D0%B0 Karl Marx stated that Russia could bypass the painful stage of capitalism. He emphasized that his theory was not a universal historical prescription and that the Russian peasant commune could, under certain conditions, become the nucleus of socialist development. Marx told Zasulich at the time that education was one of the most crucial factors in the possibility of bypassing the agonizing stage of capitalism. The bottom line is this: Lenin and Trotsky supported the NEP, whereas Stalin sided with "Zasulich." Stalin turned out to be entirely right, and he did not deviate from Marx's theory by even a millimeter. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] timdrake@lemmy.ml 1 point 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) In the preface to the 1882 Russian edition of the Manifesto, Marx and Engels say that the Russian commune could “pass directly to the higher form of Communist common ownership” only if the Russian Revolution (which he saw as inevitable, though it was not inevitable that it would "take[] place in time" (first draft of letter to Zasulich), and in the Letter to Otecestvenniye Zapisky he says that if Russia continues on its path, it will have lost this chance to skip the phase of capitalist development) is supported by wider revolution in the West. Otherwise, the Russian commune “must [] first pass through the same process of dissolution such as constitutes the historical evolution of the West.” There’s zero approval by Marx here for the notion of skipping the phase of private production/property in one country without a wider revolution. Marx told Zasulich at the time that education was one of the most crucial factors in the possibility of bypassing the agonizing stage of capitalism. No he didn’t. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago You misinterpret Marx's statement. I'm fully aware of Marx's views on the Russian commune movement, the problem is that you assume the Soviet model is what Marx was referring to, and that a more classically Marxist understanding of socialism was not what he meant. Marx was fairly explicit in what a socialist state would be, one where public ownership is principal and the working classes control the state. The Russian peasantry could have bypassed the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie and went straight to a dictatorship of the proletariat and peasantry, but they would not be able to avoid the problem of transitioning small ownership to large, industrialized ownership without the aid of markets. The fact of the matter is that private property existed de facto in the USSR. One of the mistakes of former socialism was merely trying to punish private ownership, rather than subordinate it to the public sector. Marx analyzed markets as being enormously useful in stitching together all of the small owners and building up productive forces, and public ownership as being superior at running large industry. Stalin ending the NEP early was a matter of survival, and was correct. China's conditions are different, and now occupies a more classically Marxist economy. It isn't even the same as the NEP, China was closer to the NEP under Mao, the socialist market economy of China is a more classically Marxist economy, with the ability to be so precisely because the imperialists cannot afford to decouple from them. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (3 replies) load more comments (5 replies) load more comments (2 replies) load more comments (1 reply) [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (30 children) Abolishing the NEP in the USSR and moving onto more planned economy ended up being beneficial. However, in the case of China, the NEP-inspired socialist market economy is the reason China is where they are today. New contradictions have arisen, which is of course a gamble, but with that came highly developed productive forces and tight interconnection with the global economy. This has allowed the PRC to reach where the USSR could not, and the developed productive forces are forming the basis of the newly emerging, more planned economy. As for Mao, China was horribly underdeveloped. Many of his mistakes were in dealing with such an environment, knowledge of agronomics was low and industrialization was non-existent. Under Mao, a solid socialist base was laid out, which managed to created the basis for the modern economy. As for the Sino-Soviet split, it's a tragedy, and was avoidable. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 30 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (12 children) I'm not denying that China has shortcomings. I believe you are magnifying them beyond their actual levels. As for Cheng Enfu's diagram, it essentially describes increasing planning and decreasing marketization over time. Marketization helps socialize production, and over time this is reigned in, creating a fully planned economy. As for Mao Zedong Thought, some aspects have applicability elsewhere. The Mass Line is a generally useful tactic, Protracted People's War can be useful in largely agrarian countries with high peasant populations and smaller urban centers, and so forth. It isn't universal, but Mao Zedong Thought works well for China and tactics from it have seen success in the global south, including in Vietnam. As for your insinuation that there are privledged people in China, yes, this is true. This is a side-effect of the socialist market economy. It's a tradeoff, an inefficiency that serves as a sort of price for the positive aspects of the socialist market economy. Excessive luxury is being cracked down on, and as China's socialist system develops, obscene wealth is being diminished while absolute wealth rises for the average worker. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 12 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (10 children) I never said Mao did not rely heavily on the USSR, so I will largely ignore those points as we do not really disagree. Regarding the Mass Line, it is essentially the tactic of taking policy from the people, and having the party reinterpret it and enact it accordingly. It is a way to avoid commandism and tailism, and has been applied by various ML or Maoist parties. Maoists tend to believe it is universal, while MLs tend to believe it is particular to certain conditions similar to China's experience. As for cracking down on excessive luxury, one example is the censorship of flaunting wealth on social media, and punishing those found guilty of corruption, taking bribes, etc. In China, the number of billionaires is decreasing, as the NEP-style economy is transitioning to a more advanced planned economy gradually. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (8 children) I'm aware that Mao believed that. That's why the narrative that Deng Xiaoping "backstabbed" socialism is false, Reform & Opening Up was a continuation of the economic basis laid out by Mao. As for cracking down on flaunting wealth, if your impression is already highly skeptical of China, it can seem that it's only to hide it from the public. A more comprehensive view of China, however, reveals it to not be mere rhetoric but the outcome of having both a socialist state and the contradictions rising from marketization. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (7 children) I’m aware that Mao believed that. Yes, exactly! That is the main argument—held by the Chinese themselves, by Western socialists (Trotskyists), and by the "new breed" of Western socialists (like you): that China fell out with the USSR because Khrushchev pursued a policy of "openness." But I keep telling you all that this isn't true, and it wasn't about Stalin! The reason was something else entirely. Relations between Khrushchev and Mao deteriorated completely after Mao asked the USSR to build a nuclear submarine fleet for China. Khrushchev agreed, but with the stipulation that the fleet would be a joint venture and based in Soviet Far Eastern ports. For some reason, Mao took great offense at this and refused. Now you can see just how brazen Mao was. These are all matters of public record; you can read about it yourself. I believe the reason for the rift was that, after Stalin's death, Mao considered himself the world's leading socialist—superior to the others and capable of handling everything on his own. He did not view Khrushchev as his equal. We saw how that turned out. As for cracking down on flaunting wealth, if your impression is already highly skeptical of China, it can seem that it’s only to hide it from the public. Yes, I know the statistics: wage growth in China is 4–6% annually. But I’m not convinced that wages are rising only for the poor—or that the 4–6% gains belonging to the middle and upper classes are being taken away and redistributed to China’s lower-income population. Show me the data on that trend, and then I’ll agree with you. I’d like to see statistics for these companies: JD.com: The revenue leader among China’s private enterprises, generating around 1.16 trillion yuan annually. Alibaba Group: JD.com’s main rival in the e-commerce market, showing steady growth driven by logistics and international expansion. ByteDance (owner of TikTok): The fastest-growing brand and largest private tech corporation. According to analyst reports, its brand value grew by 45% in a single year, reaching $153.5 billion. In cases where profits surged by 45% (an increase of 70 billion per year), exactly how much of that actually went to the poorer segments of the population? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (6 children) I think you're reading more into my position than I have stated myself. I understand that Mao was not innocent within the split, neither were the soviets. That's why I have stated that the split was a tragedy and should have been avoided had both sides statesmen been competent enough. As for statistics on wealth over time, you can even see western articles framing this crackdown in "scary language." The trend is gradual, but it isn't nonexistent either. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (5 children) I think you’re reading more into my position than I have stated myself. Yes, Comrade, you’re right. It’s a very painful subject for me. To me, this is just like Solzhenitsyn’s The Gulag Archipelago, a work that slandered and humiliated the entire Soviet ideology. Both have fostered a distorted view of the Soviet era. They have given rise to all sorts of false theories that are published and circulated worldwide on a massive scale. Yet the Soviet soul is all I have left in life now. I am being bombed every night, but I live in the past—I live on memories... As for statistics on wealth over time, you can even see western articles framing this crackdown in “scary language.” The trend is gradual, but it isn’t nonexistent either. Ma crossed a red line; Xi decided that the oligarchs were becoming a threat to him... though he seems to have realized this rather late. We can certainly see Ma’s attempt to meddle in state affairs. People used to tell me that China has no oligarchs because Chinese billionaires don't interfere in government business. Yet, I highly doubt that was the first time Ma had meddled in state affairs—after all, he is a long-standing Communist Party member. To be honest, Comrade, what is actually happening in China is a closely guarded secret. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (4 children) Again, I think you're reading the situation through pessimistic hermeneutics, seeing what isn't actually there as present based on pessimism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (3 children) That’s an interesting way to put it. Are you referring to Cervantes and the windmills? My subjective pessimism stems from the fact that I’ve lost faith in my own future—my personal future. It’s just that, due to certain circumstances, I reached a point where I lost hope for what lies ahead. I’ve come to terms with that now. As for objective pessimism, that has nothing to do with my personal outlook. If you like, you could call it dialectics in its most extreme form... ))))) But seriously, Comrade, when was the last time you saw someone looking toward humanity's future with confidence and optimism—without any illusions? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (2 children) I'm referring to someone whose own pessimism causes them to see negativity where there is no actual basis for it. Your mind fills in the blanks, so to speak. Nobody is immune to this, I am an optimist, a revolutionary optimist. I have to hold onto hope to move forward, and do my best to temper that with sober and grounded analysis. Optimism is a revolutionary feeling, pessimism leads to nihilism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (1 child) I’m referring to someone whose own pessimism causes them to see negativity where there is no actual basis for it. Yes, you described that guy accurately. And that’s hardly surprising, because in this world, he has no choice but to be a sociopath. As for the idea that I might be talking nonsense—that’s unlikely; I have far too much practical life experience to spout complete rubbish. I’ve clawed my way to the top three times in my life, only to hit rock bottom again. Right now, I’m at the bottom once more. Would you be an optimist if you were in my shoes, Comrade? ... ))) And please, don’t tell me that I’m the one to blame for it all, rather than the way life is set up! I am an optimist, a revolutionary optimist. You just got lucky, Comrade! I'm happy for you. I was just like that once, too. I have to hold onto hope to move forward, and do my best to temper that with sober and grounded analysis. Yes, it's Dostoevsky: The most terrible thing is when a person has nowhere to go. This quote reflects one of Fyodor Dostoevsky's most haunting themes: the crushing despair of total alienation and the human necessity for purpose. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago I don't mean it as a moral condemnation, or an expectation to be "better," but as an explanation for why we are in disagreement on certain aspects. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (6 children) It's certainly true that mistakes in work and management exaggerated the impacts of natural disaster. This did result in making a naturally occurring famine worse, similar to what happened in the 1930s soviet famine. However, between 1949 and 1978, agriculture was dramatically overhauled and succeeded in achieving food security, ending famine in a region where famine was historically common (again, similar to the 1930s soviet famine). Was the Great Leap Forward a clear success? No, not necessarily. Over-enthusiasm and mistakes in work magnified the impact of weather disaster. Millions did die. However, these mistakes were rectified, and agriculture was successfully advanced. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (4 children) Similar to the soviet experience, Chinese workers are holding their heads high in new stages in socialist construction, with simiarly rapid levels of development. Anecdotes aside, this experience is common among both China and the USSR. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (1 child) You could be correct, but we would never know. If only people in the USSR back then had known what they stood to lose... permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago Agreed. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (2 replies) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (10 replies) load more comments (2 replies)
[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (58 children) The NEP was forged in the context of a highly undeveloped Russia, with a necessity to uplift agriculture as soon as possible so as to rapidly improve industry. The hatred of the people towards the NEPmen was understandable, but a clear reading of the historical material conditions reveals that it was necessary. As long as the socialist state holds the commanding heights of industry, and maintains a vigilant eye towards any organized political resistance from the petite bourgeoisie and bourgeoisie, markets can be a complementary part to the broader socialist system in developing underdeveloped areas. As for Mao's economy, it was again rapid industrialization. The problem with Mao's economy was that growth was uneven and unstable. Deng Xiaoping's reforms stabilized and slightly accelerated development. You'll get no argument from me that killing off the sparrows was wrong, but knowledge of agronomics was very low comparatively in China, and thus this mistake was not repeated as their knowledge advanced. I also am not a fan of the sino-soviet split. I do not believe Mao to have been blameless for it, however, Khrushchev's venom was correctly called out by Mao. Just as Mao wasn't permanently good, so too was Khrushchev not permanently bad, but there's good reason why Khrushchev's actions enabled Gorbachev's, which enabled Yeltsin's. Regarding technology transfer, certainly you can see that Chinese manufacturing is now more advanced than soviet manufacturing. In becoming the world's factory, they not only copied western tech, but totally owned the entire production process, and now are using it to advance and develop further. There is a qualitative difference between reverse engineering every single thing you copy, and being able to simply copy what you're already manufacturing. All in all, I understand that I am not Russian. I am indeed a westerner, damned as I may be. However, I truly believe that I can recognize both the Chinese and Soviet approaches as immensely positive forces, and hope that Russia returns to socialism within my lifetime. I long to see the western empire fall, and I am happy to see existing socialist countries advance forward into the future despite western flailing. The west has fallen into China's trap, and it is too late to leave. What we are witnessing is a cornered beast that has already lost, and is throwing a fit in the aftermath. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 58 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (24 children) I want to make it clear, I am aware the Soviets had incredible technology that the west did not even have, at least for a time. My point regarding China's Socialist Market Economy is that the process of technology transfer happens faster, more completely, and is now being phased out in favor of new Chinese tech that in many fields is advanced beyond the west. China's socialist market economy is not a permanent strategy, but instead a tactical decision in a longer battle, and that's why the birdcage is closing. As for the cornered beast, I am referring to America. Russia certainly has a real need to return to socialism, but America is the one on its way out. And yes, the hatred of America is real, even liberals are beginning to detest America (though of course they will repeat nonsense about communism until they turn blue in the face). The Empire is dying. It can certainly lash out violently, but it cannot and will not save itself. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 24 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (22 children) One could say that the reason the Soviets could not get the same western investment is because of the differences between the soviet system and the Chinese system. This is why it's best not to look at socialism like a static formula, but a science with options and tradeoffs. China's decision came with good and bad, the soviet decision came with good and bad, the correct decision is only truly identifiable in hindsight. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 22 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (19 children) Stalin also made errors and mistakes in socialist construction. You are overweighting Mao's mistakes and ignoring the successes under Mao, the establishment and solidification of socialism in China. The modern CPC has learned from both the successes and mistakes of both Stalin and Mao, while the CPSU decayed. As much as I wish the USSR had not dissolved, it did, and we are in the aftermath of such a tragedy. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 19 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (13 children) I believe you are mistaken, comrade. I am not actually Nikita Khrushchev nor am I Mao Zedong. Any "double-standard" you see with Deng Xiaoping's Reform and Opening Up as a result of problems with the late Mao era and the Gang of Four must be considered from that context, and not merely from one aspect of Mao's critique of Khrushchev's policy before the Gang of Four era. Regarding the Gang of Four, they were largely an extension of Mao's incorrect lines towards the end of his life, without most of his positive lines. Deng Xiaoping corrected the course for the new era of development, having inherited a basically industrialized economy but with widespread poverty and backwards technology. As for China outmaneuvering the west, I agree. This is pretty plainly what happened, despite what the west thought they could get away with, China maintained a dictatorship of the proletariat and maintained political control in the socialist market economy. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 13 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (9 children) It's widely acknowledged that the later Mao era and the era of the Gang of Four was filled with mistakes, and that Reform & Opening Up was a course correction. You may call this "double standards," but learning from mistakes when practice doesn't live up to expectations is how we grow. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 9 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (8 children) It’s widely acknowledged that the later Mao We’ve finally reached a consensus, Comrade! There’s just a slight discrepancy regarding the dates. You say the late Mao era began in 1968, whereas I maintain that the late Mao era you’re referring to actually began after Stalin’s death. Let me just clarify one more thing: from 1950 onwards—after suffering four strokes—Stalin didn’t really make any major decisions in the country. A triumvirate was formed—Malenkov, Beria, and Molotov—to prepare all key state projects, while Stalin merely affixed the final approval. So, in essence, Stalin had already died back in 1950. If we settle on a middle ground... say, 1959—would that work for you, Comrade?... )))) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (7 children) I don't think we are going to come to an agreement here. I wouldn't put a hard date on it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (6 children) Comrade, just so you know: if I use ")))", it means I'm joking. Of course, one shouldn't date events that way. I wanted to highlight the fact that you agreed with me on at least one thing!))) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (5 children) I understand )))! Just not used to seeing it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (4 children) When you see that ")))", you’ll realize you’re talking to a Russian or a Russian speaker. Okay, in that case, let’s talk about humor. Let’s talk about folklore. Folklore isn't about the state; it’s about the people. Folklore reflects the collective mindset of the people—I think you’d agree with that... Vox populi, vox Dei. Here’s a Soviet-era joke; these few lines capture the whole essence: "To launch a satellite, the Chinese formed a human pyramid a thousand stories high, but it collapsed because the guy on the three-hundred-and-seventeenth floor hadn't properly mastered Mao's Little Red Book." You’re an intelligent person, so you surely understand that my views were formed back in early childhood. It’s something ingrained at a subconscious level. So, please forgive me for my past stubbornness. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (3 children) I understand and can empathize with your views, I just have disagreements on certain aspects. These of course are colored by both of our upbringings, you within the Soviet Union and me entirely disconnected from socialism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (2 children) I very often fill gaps in my theoretical knowledge with personal experience—please forgive me for that! I would also like to note that the interpretation of Marx's theory in the USSR was somewhat simplified. For instance, the USSR acknowledged the existence of a primitive communal system but not the "Asiatic mode of production." I only heard about the latter recently. I would like to highlight this aspect; perhaps the key to what is currently happening in China lies there. Given that my knowledge of Marx's theory is superficial—and considering that Marx did not outline a precise model for constructing socialism (his work was largely a theoretical analysis of capitalism and its consequences)—it is worth noting that philosophy never sets concrete tasks for the individual. Regarding your view of Marx's philosophy, I can also point out an inaccuracy. You state that Marx envisioned the construction of socialism only within the context of developed capitalism, based on highly advanced productive forces. However, that is not entirely the case. In a letter to Vera Zasulich (dated March 8, 1881), https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%83%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%87,_%D0%92%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B0_%D0%98%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BD%D0%B0 Karl Marx stated that Russia could bypass the painful stage of capitalism. He emphasized that his theory was not a universal historical prescription and that the Russian peasant commune could, under certain conditions, become the nucleus of socialist development. Marx told Zasulich at the time that education was one of the most crucial factors in the possibility of bypassing the agonizing stage of capitalism. The bottom line is this: Lenin and Trotsky supported the NEP, whereas Stalin sided with "Zasulich." Stalin turned out to be entirely right, and he did not deviate from Marx's theory by even a millimeter. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] timdrake@lemmy.ml 1 point 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) In the preface to the 1882 Russian edition of the Manifesto, Marx and Engels say that the Russian commune could “pass directly to the higher form of Communist common ownership” only if the Russian Revolution (which he saw as inevitable, though it was not inevitable that it would "take[] place in time" (first draft of letter to Zasulich), and in the Letter to Otecestvenniye Zapisky he says that if Russia continues on its path, it will have lost this chance to skip the phase of capitalist development) is supported by wider revolution in the West. Otherwise, the Russian commune “must [] first pass through the same process of dissolution such as constitutes the historical evolution of the West.” There’s zero approval by Marx here for the notion of skipping the phase of private production/property in one country without a wider revolution. Marx told Zasulich at the time that education was one of the most crucial factors in the possibility of bypassing the agonizing stage of capitalism. No he didn’t. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago You misinterpret Marx's statement. I'm fully aware of Marx's views on the Russian commune movement, the problem is that you assume the Soviet model is what Marx was referring to, and that a more classically Marxist understanding of socialism was not what he meant. Marx was fairly explicit in what a socialist state would be, one where public ownership is principal and the working classes control the state. The Russian peasantry could have bypassed the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie and went straight to a dictatorship of the proletariat and peasantry, but they would not be able to avoid the problem of transitioning small ownership to large, industrialized ownership without the aid of markets. The fact of the matter is that private property existed de facto in the USSR. One of the mistakes of former socialism was merely trying to punish private ownership, rather than subordinate it to the public sector. Marx analyzed markets as being enormously useful in stitching together all of the small owners and building up productive forces, and public ownership as being superior at running large industry. Stalin ending the NEP early was a matter of survival, and was correct. China's conditions are different, and now occupies a more classically Marxist economy. It isn't even the same as the NEP, China was closer to the NEP under Mao, the socialist market economy of China is a more classically Marxist economy, with the ability to be so precisely because the imperialists cannot afford to decouple from them. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (3 replies) load more comments (5 replies) load more comments (2 replies) load more comments (1 reply) [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (30 children) Abolishing the NEP in the USSR and moving onto more planned economy ended up being beneficial. However, in the case of China, the NEP-inspired socialist market economy is the reason China is where they are today. New contradictions have arisen, which is of course a gamble, but with that came highly developed productive forces and tight interconnection with the global economy. This has allowed the PRC to reach where the USSR could not, and the developed productive forces are forming the basis of the newly emerging, more planned economy. As for Mao, China was horribly underdeveloped. Many of his mistakes were in dealing with such an environment, knowledge of agronomics was low and industrialization was non-existent. Under Mao, a solid socialist base was laid out, which managed to created the basis for the modern economy. As for the Sino-Soviet split, it's a tragedy, and was avoidable. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 30 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (12 children) I'm not denying that China has shortcomings. I believe you are magnifying them beyond their actual levels. As for Cheng Enfu's diagram, it essentially describes increasing planning and decreasing marketization over time. Marketization helps socialize production, and over time this is reigned in, creating a fully planned economy. As for Mao Zedong Thought, some aspects have applicability elsewhere. The Mass Line is a generally useful tactic, Protracted People's War can be useful in largely agrarian countries with high peasant populations and smaller urban centers, and so forth. It isn't universal, but Mao Zedong Thought works well for China and tactics from it have seen success in the global south, including in Vietnam. As for your insinuation that there are privledged people in China, yes, this is true. This is a side-effect of the socialist market economy. It's a tradeoff, an inefficiency that serves as a sort of price for the positive aspects of the socialist market economy. Excessive luxury is being cracked down on, and as China's socialist system develops, obscene wealth is being diminished while absolute wealth rises for the average worker. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 12 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (10 children) I never said Mao did not rely heavily on the USSR, so I will largely ignore those points as we do not really disagree. Regarding the Mass Line, it is essentially the tactic of taking policy from the people, and having the party reinterpret it and enact it accordingly. It is a way to avoid commandism and tailism, and has been applied by various ML or Maoist parties. Maoists tend to believe it is universal, while MLs tend to believe it is particular to certain conditions similar to China's experience. As for cracking down on excessive luxury, one example is the censorship of flaunting wealth on social media, and punishing those found guilty of corruption, taking bribes, etc. In China, the number of billionaires is decreasing, as the NEP-style economy is transitioning to a more advanced planned economy gradually. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (8 children) I'm aware that Mao believed that. That's why the narrative that Deng Xiaoping "backstabbed" socialism is false, Reform & Opening Up was a continuation of the economic basis laid out by Mao. As for cracking down on flaunting wealth, if your impression is already highly skeptical of China, it can seem that it's only to hide it from the public. A more comprehensive view of China, however, reveals it to not be mere rhetoric but the outcome of having both a socialist state and the contradictions rising from marketization. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (7 children) I’m aware that Mao believed that. Yes, exactly! That is the main argument—held by the Chinese themselves, by Western socialists (Trotskyists), and by the "new breed" of Western socialists (like you): that China fell out with the USSR because Khrushchev pursued a policy of "openness." But I keep telling you all that this isn't true, and it wasn't about Stalin! The reason was something else entirely. Relations between Khrushchev and Mao deteriorated completely after Mao asked the USSR to build a nuclear submarine fleet for China. Khrushchev agreed, but with the stipulation that the fleet would be a joint venture and based in Soviet Far Eastern ports. For some reason, Mao took great offense at this and refused. Now you can see just how brazen Mao was. These are all matters of public record; you can read about it yourself. I believe the reason for the rift was that, after Stalin's death, Mao considered himself the world's leading socialist—superior to the others and capable of handling everything on his own. He did not view Khrushchev as his equal. We saw how that turned out. As for cracking down on flaunting wealth, if your impression is already highly skeptical of China, it can seem that it’s only to hide it from the public. Yes, I know the statistics: wage growth in China is 4–6% annually. But I’m not convinced that wages are rising only for the poor—or that the 4–6% gains belonging to the middle and upper classes are being taken away and redistributed to China’s lower-income population. Show me the data on that trend, and then I’ll agree with you. I’d like to see statistics for these companies: JD.com: The revenue leader among China’s private enterprises, generating around 1.16 trillion yuan annually. Alibaba Group: JD.com’s main rival in the e-commerce market, showing steady growth driven by logistics and international expansion. ByteDance (owner of TikTok): The fastest-growing brand and largest private tech corporation. According to analyst reports, its brand value grew by 45% in a single year, reaching $153.5 billion. In cases where profits surged by 45% (an increase of 70 billion per year), exactly how much of that actually went to the poorer segments of the population? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (6 children) I think you're reading more into my position than I have stated myself. I understand that Mao was not innocent within the split, neither were the soviets. That's why I have stated that the split was a tragedy and should have been avoided had both sides statesmen been competent enough. As for statistics on wealth over time, you can even see western articles framing this crackdown in "scary language." The trend is gradual, but it isn't nonexistent either. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (5 children) I think you’re reading more into my position than I have stated myself. Yes, Comrade, you’re right. It’s a very painful subject for me. To me, this is just like Solzhenitsyn’s The Gulag Archipelago, a work that slandered and humiliated the entire Soviet ideology. Both have fostered a distorted view of the Soviet era. They have given rise to all sorts of false theories that are published and circulated worldwide on a massive scale. Yet the Soviet soul is all I have left in life now. I am being bombed every night, but I live in the past—I live on memories... As for statistics on wealth over time, you can even see western articles framing this crackdown in “scary language.” The trend is gradual, but it isn’t nonexistent either. Ma crossed a red line; Xi decided that the oligarchs were becoming a threat to him... though he seems to have realized this rather late. We can certainly see Ma’s attempt to meddle in state affairs. People used to tell me that China has no oligarchs because Chinese billionaires don't interfere in government business. Yet, I highly doubt that was the first time Ma had meddled in state affairs—after all, he is a long-standing Communist Party member. To be honest, Comrade, what is actually happening in China is a closely guarded secret. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (4 children) Again, I think you're reading the situation through pessimistic hermeneutics, seeing what isn't actually there as present based on pessimism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (3 children) That’s an interesting way to put it. Are you referring to Cervantes and the windmills? My subjective pessimism stems from the fact that I’ve lost faith in my own future—my personal future. It’s just that, due to certain circumstances, I reached a point where I lost hope for what lies ahead. I’ve come to terms with that now. As for objective pessimism, that has nothing to do with my personal outlook. If you like, you could call it dialectics in its most extreme form... ))))) But seriously, Comrade, when was the last time you saw someone looking toward humanity's future with confidence and optimism—without any illusions? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (2 children) I'm referring to someone whose own pessimism causes them to see negativity where there is no actual basis for it. Your mind fills in the blanks, so to speak. Nobody is immune to this, I am an optimist, a revolutionary optimist. I have to hold onto hope to move forward, and do my best to temper that with sober and grounded analysis. Optimism is a revolutionary feeling, pessimism leads to nihilism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (1 child) I’m referring to someone whose own pessimism causes them to see negativity where there is no actual basis for it. Yes, you described that guy accurately. And that’s hardly surprising, because in this world, he has no choice but to be a sociopath. As for the idea that I might be talking nonsense—that’s unlikely; I have far too much practical life experience to spout complete rubbish. I’ve clawed my way to the top three times in my life, only to hit rock bottom again. Right now, I’m at the bottom once more. Would you be an optimist if you were in my shoes, Comrade? ... ))) And please, don’t tell me that I’m the one to blame for it all, rather than the way life is set up! I am an optimist, a revolutionary optimist. You just got lucky, Comrade! I'm happy for you. I was just like that once, too. I have to hold onto hope to move forward, and do my best to temper that with sober and grounded analysis. Yes, it's Dostoevsky: The most terrible thing is when a person has nowhere to go. This quote reflects one of Fyodor Dostoevsky's most haunting themes: the crushing despair of total alienation and the human necessity for purpose. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago I don't mean it as a moral condemnation, or an expectation to be "better," but as an explanation for why we are in disagreement on certain aspects. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (6 children) It's certainly true that mistakes in work and management exaggerated the impacts of natural disaster. This did result in making a naturally occurring famine worse, similar to what happened in the 1930s soviet famine. However, between 1949 and 1978, agriculture was dramatically overhauled and succeeded in achieving food security, ending famine in a region where famine was historically common (again, similar to the 1930s soviet famine). Was the Great Leap Forward a clear success? No, not necessarily. Over-enthusiasm and mistakes in work magnified the impact of weather disaster. Millions did die. However, these mistakes were rectified, and agriculture was successfully advanced. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (4 children) Similar to the soviet experience, Chinese workers are holding their heads high in new stages in socialist construction, with simiarly rapid levels of development. Anecdotes aside, this experience is common among both China and the USSR. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (1 child) You could be correct, but we would never know. If only people in the USSR back then had known what they stood to lose... permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago Agreed. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (2 replies) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (10 replies) load more comments (2 replies)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (24 children) I want to make it clear, I am aware the Soviets had incredible technology that the west did not even have, at least for a time. My point regarding China's Socialist Market Economy is that the process of technology transfer happens faster, more completely, and is now being phased out in favor of new Chinese tech that in many fields is advanced beyond the west. China's socialist market economy is not a permanent strategy, but instead a tactical decision in a longer battle, and that's why the birdcage is closing. As for the cornered beast, I am referring to America. Russia certainly has a real need to return to socialism, but America is the one on its way out. And yes, the hatred of America is real, even liberals are beginning to detest America (though of course they will repeat nonsense about communism until they turn blue in the face). The Empire is dying. It can certainly lash out violently, but it cannot and will not save itself. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 24 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (22 children) One could say that the reason the Soviets could not get the same western investment is because of the differences between the soviet system and the Chinese system. This is why it's best not to look at socialism like a static formula, but a science with options and tradeoffs. China's decision came with good and bad, the soviet decision came with good and bad, the correct decision is only truly identifiable in hindsight. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 22 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (19 children) Stalin also made errors and mistakes in socialist construction. You are overweighting Mao's mistakes and ignoring the successes under Mao, the establishment and solidification of socialism in China. The modern CPC has learned from both the successes and mistakes of both Stalin and Mao, while the CPSU decayed. As much as I wish the USSR had not dissolved, it did, and we are in the aftermath of such a tragedy. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 19 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (13 children) I believe you are mistaken, comrade. I am not actually Nikita Khrushchev nor am I Mao Zedong. Any "double-standard" you see with Deng Xiaoping's Reform and Opening Up as a result of problems with the late Mao era and the Gang of Four must be considered from that context, and not merely from one aspect of Mao's critique of Khrushchev's policy before the Gang of Four era. Regarding the Gang of Four, they were largely an extension of Mao's incorrect lines towards the end of his life, without most of his positive lines. Deng Xiaoping corrected the course for the new era of development, having inherited a basically industrialized economy but with widespread poverty and backwards technology. As for China outmaneuvering the west, I agree. This is pretty plainly what happened, despite what the west thought they could get away with, China maintained a dictatorship of the proletariat and maintained political control in the socialist market economy. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 13 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (9 children) It's widely acknowledged that the later Mao era and the era of the Gang of Four was filled with mistakes, and that Reform & Opening Up was a course correction. You may call this "double standards," but learning from mistakes when practice doesn't live up to expectations is how we grow. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 9 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (8 children) It’s widely acknowledged that the later Mao We’ve finally reached a consensus, Comrade! There’s just a slight discrepancy regarding the dates. You say the late Mao era began in 1968, whereas I maintain that the late Mao era you’re referring to actually began after Stalin’s death. Let me just clarify one more thing: from 1950 onwards—after suffering four strokes—Stalin didn’t really make any major decisions in the country. A triumvirate was formed—Malenkov, Beria, and Molotov—to prepare all key state projects, while Stalin merely affixed the final approval. So, in essence, Stalin had already died back in 1950. If we settle on a middle ground... say, 1959—would that work for you, Comrade?... )))) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (7 children) I don't think we are going to come to an agreement here. I wouldn't put a hard date on it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (6 children) Comrade, just so you know: if I use ")))", it means I'm joking. Of course, one shouldn't date events that way. I wanted to highlight the fact that you agreed with me on at least one thing!))) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (5 children) I understand )))! Just not used to seeing it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (4 children) When you see that ")))", you’ll realize you’re talking to a Russian or a Russian speaker. Okay, in that case, let’s talk about humor. Let’s talk about folklore. Folklore isn't about the state; it’s about the people. Folklore reflects the collective mindset of the people—I think you’d agree with that... Vox populi, vox Dei. Here’s a Soviet-era joke; these few lines capture the whole essence: "To launch a satellite, the Chinese formed a human pyramid a thousand stories high, but it collapsed because the guy on the three-hundred-and-seventeenth floor hadn't properly mastered Mao's Little Red Book." You’re an intelligent person, so you surely understand that my views were formed back in early childhood. It’s something ingrained at a subconscious level. So, please forgive me for my past stubbornness. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (3 children) I understand and can empathize with your views, I just have disagreements on certain aspects. These of course are colored by both of our upbringings, you within the Soviet Union and me entirely disconnected from socialism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (2 children) I very often fill gaps in my theoretical knowledge with personal experience—please forgive me for that! I would also like to note that the interpretation of Marx's theory in the USSR was somewhat simplified. For instance, the USSR acknowledged the existence of a primitive communal system but not the "Asiatic mode of production." I only heard about the latter recently. I would like to highlight this aspect; perhaps the key to what is currently happening in China lies there. Given that my knowledge of Marx's theory is superficial—and considering that Marx did not outline a precise model for constructing socialism (his work was largely a theoretical analysis of capitalism and its consequences)—it is worth noting that philosophy never sets concrete tasks for the individual. Regarding your view of Marx's philosophy, I can also point out an inaccuracy. You state that Marx envisioned the construction of socialism only within the context of developed capitalism, based on highly advanced productive forces. However, that is not entirely the case. In a letter to Vera Zasulich (dated March 8, 1881), https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%83%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%87,_%D0%92%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B0_%D0%98%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BD%D0%B0 Karl Marx stated that Russia could bypass the painful stage of capitalism. He emphasized that his theory was not a universal historical prescription and that the Russian peasant commune could, under certain conditions, become the nucleus of socialist development. Marx told Zasulich at the time that education was one of the most crucial factors in the possibility of bypassing the agonizing stage of capitalism. The bottom line is this: Lenin and Trotsky supported the NEP, whereas Stalin sided with "Zasulich." Stalin turned out to be entirely right, and he did not deviate from Marx's theory by even a millimeter. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] timdrake@lemmy.ml 1 point 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) In the preface to the 1882 Russian edition of the Manifesto, Marx and Engels say that the Russian commune could “pass directly to the higher form of Communist common ownership” only if the Russian Revolution (which he saw as inevitable, though it was not inevitable that it would "take[] place in time" (first draft of letter to Zasulich), and in the Letter to Otecestvenniye Zapisky he says that if Russia continues on its path, it will have lost this chance to skip the phase of capitalist development) is supported by wider revolution in the West. Otherwise, the Russian commune “must [] first pass through the same process of dissolution such as constitutes the historical evolution of the West.” There’s zero approval by Marx here for the notion of skipping the phase of private production/property in one country without a wider revolution. Marx told Zasulich at the time that education was one of the most crucial factors in the possibility of bypassing the agonizing stage of capitalism. No he didn’t. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago You misinterpret Marx's statement. I'm fully aware of Marx's views on the Russian commune movement, the problem is that you assume the Soviet model is what Marx was referring to, and that a more classically Marxist understanding of socialism was not what he meant. Marx was fairly explicit in what a socialist state would be, one where public ownership is principal and the working classes control the state. The Russian peasantry could have bypassed the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie and went straight to a dictatorship of the proletariat and peasantry, but they would not be able to avoid the problem of transitioning small ownership to large, industrialized ownership without the aid of markets. The fact of the matter is that private property existed de facto in the USSR. One of the mistakes of former socialism was merely trying to punish private ownership, rather than subordinate it to the public sector. Marx analyzed markets as being enormously useful in stitching together all of the small owners and building up productive forces, and public ownership as being superior at running large industry. Stalin ending the NEP early was a matter of survival, and was correct. China's conditions are different, and now occupies a more classically Marxist economy. It isn't even the same as the NEP, China was closer to the NEP under Mao, the socialist market economy of China is a more classically Marxist economy, with the ability to be so precisely because the imperialists cannot afford to decouple from them. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (3 replies) load more comments (5 replies) load more comments (2 replies) load more comments (1 reply)
[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (24 children) I want to make it clear, I am aware the Soviets had incredible technology that the west did not even have, at least for a time. My point regarding China's Socialist Market Economy is that the process of technology transfer happens faster, more completely, and is now being phased out in favor of new Chinese tech that in many fields is advanced beyond the west. China's socialist market economy is not a permanent strategy, but instead a tactical decision in a longer battle, and that's why the birdcage is closing. As for the cornered beast, I am referring to America. Russia certainly has a real need to return to socialism, but America is the one on its way out. And yes, the hatred of America is real, even liberals are beginning to detest America (though of course they will repeat nonsense about communism until they turn blue in the face). The Empire is dying. It can certainly lash out violently, but it cannot and will not save itself. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 24 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (22 children) One could say that the reason the Soviets could not get the same western investment is because of the differences between the soviet system and the Chinese system. This is why it's best not to look at socialism like a static formula, but a science with options and tradeoffs. China's decision came with good and bad, the soviet decision came with good and bad, the correct decision is only truly identifiable in hindsight. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 22 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (19 children) Stalin also made errors and mistakes in socialist construction. You are overweighting Mao's mistakes and ignoring the successes under Mao, the establishment and solidification of socialism in China. The modern CPC has learned from both the successes and mistakes of both Stalin and Mao, while the CPSU decayed. As much as I wish the USSR had not dissolved, it did, and we are in the aftermath of such a tragedy. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 19 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (13 children) I believe you are mistaken, comrade. I am not actually Nikita Khrushchev nor am I Mao Zedong. Any "double-standard" you see with Deng Xiaoping's Reform and Opening Up as a result of problems with the late Mao era and the Gang of Four must be considered from that context, and not merely from one aspect of Mao's critique of Khrushchev's policy before the Gang of Four era. Regarding the Gang of Four, they were largely an extension of Mao's incorrect lines towards the end of his life, without most of his positive lines. Deng Xiaoping corrected the course for the new era of development, having inherited a basically industrialized economy but with widespread poverty and backwards technology. As for China outmaneuvering the west, I agree. This is pretty plainly what happened, despite what the west thought they could get away with, China maintained a dictatorship of the proletariat and maintained political control in the socialist market economy. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 13 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (9 children) It's widely acknowledged that the later Mao era and the era of the Gang of Four was filled with mistakes, and that Reform & Opening Up was a course correction. You may call this "double standards," but learning from mistakes when practice doesn't live up to expectations is how we grow. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 9 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (8 children) It’s widely acknowledged that the later Mao We’ve finally reached a consensus, Comrade! There’s just a slight discrepancy regarding the dates. You say the late Mao era began in 1968, whereas I maintain that the late Mao era you’re referring to actually began after Stalin’s death. Let me just clarify one more thing: from 1950 onwards—after suffering four strokes—Stalin didn’t really make any major decisions in the country. A triumvirate was formed—Malenkov, Beria, and Molotov—to prepare all key state projects, while Stalin merely affixed the final approval. So, in essence, Stalin had already died back in 1950. If we settle on a middle ground... say, 1959—would that work for you, Comrade?... )))) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (7 children) I don't think we are going to come to an agreement here. I wouldn't put a hard date on it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (6 children) Comrade, just so you know: if I use ")))", it means I'm joking. Of course, one shouldn't date events that way. I wanted to highlight the fact that you agreed with me on at least one thing!))) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (5 children) I understand )))! Just not used to seeing it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (4 children) When you see that ")))", you’ll realize you’re talking to a Russian or a Russian speaker. Okay, in that case, let’s talk about humor. Let’s talk about folklore. Folklore isn't about the state; it’s about the people. Folklore reflects the collective mindset of the people—I think you’d agree with that... Vox populi, vox Dei. Here’s a Soviet-era joke; these few lines capture the whole essence: "To launch a satellite, the Chinese formed a human pyramid a thousand stories high, but it collapsed because the guy on the three-hundred-and-seventeenth floor hadn't properly mastered Mao's Little Red Book." You’re an intelligent person, so you surely understand that my views were formed back in early childhood. It’s something ingrained at a subconscious level. So, please forgive me for my past stubbornness. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (3 children) I understand and can empathize with your views, I just have disagreements on certain aspects. These of course are colored by both of our upbringings, you within the Soviet Union and me entirely disconnected from socialism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (2 children) I very often fill gaps in my theoretical knowledge with personal experience—please forgive me for that! I would also like to note that the interpretation of Marx's theory in the USSR was somewhat simplified. For instance, the USSR acknowledged the existence of a primitive communal system but not the "Asiatic mode of production." I only heard about the latter recently. I would like to highlight this aspect; perhaps the key to what is currently happening in China lies there. Given that my knowledge of Marx's theory is superficial—and considering that Marx did not outline a precise model for constructing socialism (his work was largely a theoretical analysis of capitalism and its consequences)—it is worth noting that philosophy never sets concrete tasks for the individual. Regarding your view of Marx's philosophy, I can also point out an inaccuracy. You state that Marx envisioned the construction of socialism only within the context of developed capitalism, based on highly advanced productive forces. However, that is not entirely the case. In a letter to Vera Zasulich (dated March 8, 1881), https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%83%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%87,_%D0%92%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B0_%D0%98%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BD%D0%B0 Karl Marx stated that Russia could bypass the painful stage of capitalism. He emphasized that his theory was not a universal historical prescription and that the Russian peasant commune could, under certain conditions, become the nucleus of socialist development. Marx told Zasulich at the time that education was one of the most crucial factors in the possibility of bypassing the agonizing stage of capitalism. The bottom line is this: Lenin and Trotsky supported the NEP, whereas Stalin sided with "Zasulich." Stalin turned out to be entirely right, and he did not deviate from Marx's theory by even a millimeter. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] timdrake@lemmy.ml 1 point 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) In the preface to the 1882 Russian edition of the Manifesto, Marx and Engels say that the Russian commune could “pass directly to the higher form of Communist common ownership” only if the Russian Revolution (which he saw as inevitable, though it was not inevitable that it would "take[] place in time" (first draft of letter to Zasulich), and in the Letter to Otecestvenniye Zapisky he says that if Russia continues on its path, it will have lost this chance to skip the phase of capitalist development) is supported by wider revolution in the West. Otherwise, the Russian commune “must [] first pass through the same process of dissolution such as constitutes the historical evolution of the West.” There’s zero approval by Marx here for the notion of skipping the phase of private production/property in one country without a wider revolution. Marx told Zasulich at the time that education was one of the most crucial factors in the possibility of bypassing the agonizing stage of capitalism. No he didn’t. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago You misinterpret Marx's statement. I'm fully aware of Marx's views on the Russian commune movement, the problem is that you assume the Soviet model is what Marx was referring to, and that a more classically Marxist understanding of socialism was not what he meant. Marx was fairly explicit in what a socialist state would be, one where public ownership is principal and the working classes control the state. The Russian peasantry could have bypassed the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie and went straight to a dictatorship of the proletariat and peasantry, but they would not be able to avoid the problem of transitioning small ownership to large, industrialized ownership without the aid of markets. The fact of the matter is that private property existed de facto in the USSR. One of the mistakes of former socialism was merely trying to punish private ownership, rather than subordinate it to the public sector. Marx analyzed markets as being enormously useful in stitching together all of the small owners and building up productive forces, and public ownership as being superior at running large industry. Stalin ending the NEP early was a matter of survival, and was correct. China's conditions are different, and now occupies a more classically Marxist economy. It isn't even the same as the NEP, China was closer to the NEP under Mao, the socialist market economy of China is a more classically Marxist economy, with the ability to be so precisely because the imperialists cannot afford to decouple from them. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (3 replies) load more comments (5 replies) load more comments (2 replies) load more comments (1 reply)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (22 children) One could say that the reason the Soviets could not get the same western investment is because of the differences between the soviet system and the Chinese system. This is why it's best not to look at socialism like a static formula, but a science with options and tradeoffs. China's decision came with good and bad, the soviet decision came with good and bad, the correct decision is only truly identifiable in hindsight. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 22 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (19 children) Stalin also made errors and mistakes in socialist construction. You are overweighting Mao's mistakes and ignoring the successes under Mao, the establishment and solidification of socialism in China. The modern CPC has learned from both the successes and mistakes of both Stalin and Mao, while the CPSU decayed. As much as I wish the USSR had not dissolved, it did, and we are in the aftermath of such a tragedy. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 19 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (13 children) I believe you are mistaken, comrade. I am not actually Nikita Khrushchev nor am I Mao Zedong. Any "double-standard" you see with Deng Xiaoping's Reform and Opening Up as a result of problems with the late Mao era and the Gang of Four must be considered from that context, and not merely from one aspect of Mao's critique of Khrushchev's policy before the Gang of Four era. Regarding the Gang of Four, they were largely an extension of Mao's incorrect lines towards the end of his life, without most of his positive lines. Deng Xiaoping corrected the course for the new era of development, having inherited a basically industrialized economy but with widespread poverty and backwards technology. As for China outmaneuvering the west, I agree. This is pretty plainly what happened, despite what the west thought they could get away with, China maintained a dictatorship of the proletariat and maintained political control in the socialist market economy. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 13 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (9 children) It's widely acknowledged that the later Mao era and the era of the Gang of Four was filled with mistakes, and that Reform & Opening Up was a course correction. You may call this "double standards," but learning from mistakes when practice doesn't live up to expectations is how we grow. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 9 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (8 children) It’s widely acknowledged that the later Mao We’ve finally reached a consensus, Comrade! There’s just a slight discrepancy regarding the dates. You say the late Mao era began in 1968, whereas I maintain that the late Mao era you’re referring to actually began after Stalin’s death. Let me just clarify one more thing: from 1950 onwards—after suffering four strokes—Stalin didn’t really make any major decisions in the country. A triumvirate was formed—Malenkov, Beria, and Molotov—to prepare all key state projects, while Stalin merely affixed the final approval. So, in essence, Stalin had already died back in 1950. If we settle on a middle ground... say, 1959—would that work for you, Comrade?... )))) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (7 children) I don't think we are going to come to an agreement here. I wouldn't put a hard date on it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (6 children) Comrade, just so you know: if I use ")))", it means I'm joking. Of course, one shouldn't date events that way. I wanted to highlight the fact that you agreed with me on at least one thing!))) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (5 children) I understand )))! Just not used to seeing it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (4 children) When you see that ")))", you’ll realize you’re talking to a Russian or a Russian speaker. Okay, in that case, let’s talk about humor. Let’s talk about folklore. Folklore isn't about the state; it’s about the people. Folklore reflects the collective mindset of the people—I think you’d agree with that... Vox populi, vox Dei. Here’s a Soviet-era joke; these few lines capture the whole essence: "To launch a satellite, the Chinese formed a human pyramid a thousand stories high, but it collapsed because the guy on the three-hundred-and-seventeenth floor hadn't properly mastered Mao's Little Red Book." You’re an intelligent person, so you surely understand that my views were formed back in early childhood. It’s something ingrained at a subconscious level. So, please forgive me for my past stubbornness. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (3 children) I understand and can empathize with your views, I just have disagreements on certain aspects. These of course are colored by both of our upbringings, you within the Soviet Union and me entirely disconnected from socialism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (2 children) I very often fill gaps in my theoretical knowledge with personal experience—please forgive me for that! I would also like to note that the interpretation of Marx's theory in the USSR was somewhat simplified. For instance, the USSR acknowledged the existence of a primitive communal system but not the "Asiatic mode of production." I only heard about the latter recently. I would like to highlight this aspect; perhaps the key to what is currently happening in China lies there. Given that my knowledge of Marx's theory is superficial—and considering that Marx did not outline a precise model for constructing socialism (his work was largely a theoretical analysis of capitalism and its consequences)—it is worth noting that philosophy never sets concrete tasks for the individual. Regarding your view of Marx's philosophy, I can also point out an inaccuracy. You state that Marx envisioned the construction of socialism only within the context of developed capitalism, based on highly advanced productive forces. However, that is not entirely the case. In a letter to Vera Zasulich (dated March 8, 1881), https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%83%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%87,_%D0%92%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B0_%D0%98%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BD%D0%B0 Karl Marx stated that Russia could bypass the painful stage of capitalism. He emphasized that his theory was not a universal historical prescription and that the Russian peasant commune could, under certain conditions, become the nucleus of socialist development. Marx told Zasulich at the time that education was one of the most crucial factors in the possibility of bypassing the agonizing stage of capitalism. The bottom line is this: Lenin and Trotsky supported the NEP, whereas Stalin sided with "Zasulich." Stalin turned out to be entirely right, and he did not deviate from Marx's theory by even a millimeter. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] timdrake@lemmy.ml 1 point 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) In the preface to the 1882 Russian edition of the Manifesto, Marx and Engels say that the Russian commune could “pass directly to the higher form of Communist common ownership” only if the Russian Revolution (which he saw as inevitable, though it was not inevitable that it would "take[] place in time" (first draft of letter to Zasulich), and in the Letter to Otecestvenniye Zapisky he says that if Russia continues on its path, it will have lost this chance to skip the phase of capitalist development) is supported by wider revolution in the West. Otherwise, the Russian commune “must [] first pass through the same process of dissolution such as constitutes the historical evolution of the West.” There’s zero approval by Marx here for the notion of skipping the phase of private production/property in one country without a wider revolution. Marx told Zasulich at the time that education was one of the most crucial factors in the possibility of bypassing the agonizing stage of capitalism. No he didn’t. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago You misinterpret Marx's statement. I'm fully aware of Marx's views on the Russian commune movement, the problem is that you assume the Soviet model is what Marx was referring to, and that a more classically Marxist understanding of socialism was not what he meant. Marx was fairly explicit in what a socialist state would be, one where public ownership is principal and the working classes control the state. The Russian peasantry could have bypassed the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie and went straight to a dictatorship of the proletariat and peasantry, but they would not be able to avoid the problem of transitioning small ownership to large, industrialized ownership without the aid of markets. The fact of the matter is that private property existed de facto in the USSR. One of the mistakes of former socialism was merely trying to punish private ownership, rather than subordinate it to the public sector. Marx analyzed markets as being enormously useful in stitching together all of the small owners and building up productive forces, and public ownership as being superior at running large industry. Stalin ending the NEP early was a matter of survival, and was correct. China's conditions are different, and now occupies a more classically Marxist economy. It isn't even the same as the NEP, China was closer to the NEP under Mao, the socialist market economy of China is a more classically Marxist economy, with the ability to be so precisely because the imperialists cannot afford to decouple from them. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (3 replies) load more comments (5 replies) load more comments (2 replies)
[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (22 children) One could say that the reason the Soviets could not get the same western investment is because of the differences between the soviet system and the Chinese system. This is why it's best not to look at socialism like a static formula, but a science with options and tradeoffs. China's decision came with good and bad, the soviet decision came with good and bad, the correct decision is only truly identifiable in hindsight. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 22 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (19 children) Stalin also made errors and mistakes in socialist construction. You are overweighting Mao's mistakes and ignoring the successes under Mao, the establishment and solidification of socialism in China. The modern CPC has learned from both the successes and mistakes of both Stalin and Mao, while the CPSU decayed. As much as I wish the USSR had not dissolved, it did, and we are in the aftermath of such a tragedy. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 19 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (13 children) I believe you are mistaken, comrade. I am not actually Nikita Khrushchev nor am I Mao Zedong. Any "double-standard" you see with Deng Xiaoping's Reform and Opening Up as a result of problems with the late Mao era and the Gang of Four must be considered from that context, and not merely from one aspect of Mao's critique of Khrushchev's policy before the Gang of Four era. Regarding the Gang of Four, they were largely an extension of Mao's incorrect lines towards the end of his life, without most of his positive lines. Deng Xiaoping corrected the course for the new era of development, having inherited a basically industrialized economy but with widespread poverty and backwards technology. As for China outmaneuvering the west, I agree. This is pretty plainly what happened, despite what the west thought they could get away with, China maintained a dictatorship of the proletariat and maintained political control in the socialist market economy. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 13 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (9 children) It's widely acknowledged that the later Mao era and the era of the Gang of Four was filled with mistakes, and that Reform & Opening Up was a course correction. You may call this "double standards," but learning from mistakes when practice doesn't live up to expectations is how we grow. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 9 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (8 children) It’s widely acknowledged that the later Mao We’ve finally reached a consensus, Comrade! There’s just a slight discrepancy regarding the dates. You say the late Mao era began in 1968, whereas I maintain that the late Mao era you’re referring to actually began after Stalin’s death. Let me just clarify one more thing: from 1950 onwards—after suffering four strokes—Stalin didn’t really make any major decisions in the country. A triumvirate was formed—Malenkov, Beria, and Molotov—to prepare all key state projects, while Stalin merely affixed the final approval. So, in essence, Stalin had already died back in 1950. If we settle on a middle ground... say, 1959—would that work for you, Comrade?... )))) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (7 children) I don't think we are going to come to an agreement here. I wouldn't put a hard date on it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (6 children) Comrade, just so you know: if I use ")))", it means I'm joking. Of course, one shouldn't date events that way. I wanted to highlight the fact that you agreed with me on at least one thing!))) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (5 children) I understand )))! Just not used to seeing it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (4 children) When you see that ")))", you’ll realize you’re talking to a Russian or a Russian speaker. Okay, in that case, let’s talk about humor. Let’s talk about folklore. Folklore isn't about the state; it’s about the people. Folklore reflects the collective mindset of the people—I think you’d agree with that... Vox populi, vox Dei. Here’s a Soviet-era joke; these few lines capture the whole essence: "To launch a satellite, the Chinese formed a human pyramid a thousand stories high, but it collapsed because the guy on the three-hundred-and-seventeenth floor hadn't properly mastered Mao's Little Red Book." You’re an intelligent person, so you surely understand that my views were formed back in early childhood. It’s something ingrained at a subconscious level. So, please forgive me for my past stubbornness. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (3 children) I understand and can empathize with your views, I just have disagreements on certain aspects. These of course are colored by both of our upbringings, you within the Soviet Union and me entirely disconnected from socialism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (2 children) I very often fill gaps in my theoretical knowledge with personal experience—please forgive me for that! I would also like to note that the interpretation of Marx's theory in the USSR was somewhat simplified. For instance, the USSR acknowledged the existence of a primitive communal system but not the "Asiatic mode of production." I only heard about the latter recently. I would like to highlight this aspect; perhaps the key to what is currently happening in China lies there. Given that my knowledge of Marx's theory is superficial—and considering that Marx did not outline a precise model for constructing socialism (his work was largely a theoretical analysis of capitalism and its consequences)—it is worth noting that philosophy never sets concrete tasks for the individual. Regarding your view of Marx's philosophy, I can also point out an inaccuracy. You state that Marx envisioned the construction of socialism only within the context of developed capitalism, based on highly advanced productive forces. However, that is not entirely the case. In a letter to Vera Zasulich (dated March 8, 1881), https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%83%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%87,_%D0%92%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B0_%D0%98%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BD%D0%B0 Karl Marx stated that Russia could bypass the painful stage of capitalism. He emphasized that his theory was not a universal historical prescription and that the Russian peasant commune could, under certain conditions, become the nucleus of socialist development. Marx told Zasulich at the time that education was one of the most crucial factors in the possibility of bypassing the agonizing stage of capitalism. The bottom line is this: Lenin and Trotsky supported the NEP, whereas Stalin sided with "Zasulich." Stalin turned out to be entirely right, and he did not deviate from Marx's theory by even a millimeter. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] timdrake@lemmy.ml 1 point 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) In the preface to the 1882 Russian edition of the Manifesto, Marx and Engels say that the Russian commune could “pass directly to the higher form of Communist common ownership” only if the Russian Revolution (which he saw as inevitable, though it was not inevitable that it would "take[] place in time" (first draft of letter to Zasulich), and in the Letter to Otecestvenniye Zapisky he says that if Russia continues on its path, it will have lost this chance to skip the phase of capitalist development) is supported by wider revolution in the West. Otherwise, the Russian commune “must [] first pass through the same process of dissolution such as constitutes the historical evolution of the West.” There’s zero approval by Marx here for the notion of skipping the phase of private production/property in one country without a wider revolution. Marx told Zasulich at the time that education was one of the most crucial factors in the possibility of bypassing the agonizing stage of capitalism. No he didn’t. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago You misinterpret Marx's statement. I'm fully aware of Marx's views on the Russian commune movement, the problem is that you assume the Soviet model is what Marx was referring to, and that a more classically Marxist understanding of socialism was not what he meant. Marx was fairly explicit in what a socialist state would be, one where public ownership is principal and the working classes control the state. The Russian peasantry could have bypassed the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie and went straight to a dictatorship of the proletariat and peasantry, but they would not be able to avoid the problem of transitioning small ownership to large, industrialized ownership without the aid of markets. The fact of the matter is that private property existed de facto in the USSR. One of the mistakes of former socialism was merely trying to punish private ownership, rather than subordinate it to the public sector. Marx analyzed markets as being enormously useful in stitching together all of the small owners and building up productive forces, and public ownership as being superior at running large industry. Stalin ending the NEP early was a matter of survival, and was correct. China's conditions are different, and now occupies a more classically Marxist economy. It isn't even the same as the NEP, China was closer to the NEP under Mao, the socialist market economy of China is a more classically Marxist economy, with the ability to be so precisely because the imperialists cannot afford to decouple from them. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (3 replies) load more comments (5 replies) load more comments (2 replies)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (19 children) Stalin also made errors and mistakes in socialist construction. You are overweighting Mao's mistakes and ignoring the successes under Mao, the establishment and solidification of socialism in China. The modern CPC has learned from both the successes and mistakes of both Stalin and Mao, while the CPSU decayed. As much as I wish the USSR had not dissolved, it did, and we are in the aftermath of such a tragedy. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 19 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (13 children) I believe you are mistaken, comrade. I am not actually Nikita Khrushchev nor am I Mao Zedong. Any "double-standard" you see with Deng Xiaoping's Reform and Opening Up as a result of problems with the late Mao era and the Gang of Four must be considered from that context, and not merely from one aspect of Mao's critique of Khrushchev's policy before the Gang of Four era. Regarding the Gang of Four, they were largely an extension of Mao's incorrect lines towards the end of his life, without most of his positive lines. Deng Xiaoping corrected the course for the new era of development, having inherited a basically industrialized economy but with widespread poverty and backwards technology. As for China outmaneuvering the west, I agree. This is pretty plainly what happened, despite what the west thought they could get away with, China maintained a dictatorship of the proletariat and maintained political control in the socialist market economy. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 13 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (9 children) It's widely acknowledged that the later Mao era and the era of the Gang of Four was filled with mistakes, and that Reform & Opening Up was a course correction. You may call this "double standards," but learning from mistakes when practice doesn't live up to expectations is how we grow. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 9 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (8 children) It’s widely acknowledged that the later Mao We’ve finally reached a consensus, Comrade! There’s just a slight discrepancy regarding the dates. You say the late Mao era began in 1968, whereas I maintain that the late Mao era you’re referring to actually began after Stalin’s death. Let me just clarify one more thing: from 1950 onwards—after suffering four strokes—Stalin didn’t really make any major decisions in the country. A triumvirate was formed—Malenkov, Beria, and Molotov—to prepare all key state projects, while Stalin merely affixed the final approval. So, in essence, Stalin had already died back in 1950. If we settle on a middle ground... say, 1959—would that work for you, Comrade?... )))) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (7 children) I don't think we are going to come to an agreement here. I wouldn't put a hard date on it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (6 children) Comrade, just so you know: if I use ")))", it means I'm joking. Of course, one shouldn't date events that way. I wanted to highlight the fact that you agreed with me on at least one thing!))) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (5 children) I understand )))! Just not used to seeing it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (4 children) When you see that ")))", you’ll realize you’re talking to a Russian or a Russian speaker. Okay, in that case, let’s talk about humor. Let’s talk about folklore. Folklore isn't about the state; it’s about the people. Folklore reflects the collective mindset of the people—I think you’d agree with that... Vox populi, vox Dei. Here’s a Soviet-era joke; these few lines capture the whole essence: "To launch a satellite, the Chinese formed a human pyramid a thousand stories high, but it collapsed because the guy on the three-hundred-and-seventeenth floor hadn't properly mastered Mao's Little Red Book." You’re an intelligent person, so you surely understand that my views were formed back in early childhood. It’s something ingrained at a subconscious level. So, please forgive me for my past stubbornness. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (3 children) I understand and can empathize with your views, I just have disagreements on certain aspects. These of course are colored by both of our upbringings, you within the Soviet Union and me entirely disconnected from socialism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (2 children) I very often fill gaps in my theoretical knowledge with personal experience—please forgive me for that! I would also like to note that the interpretation of Marx's theory in the USSR was somewhat simplified. For instance, the USSR acknowledged the existence of a primitive communal system but not the "Asiatic mode of production." I only heard about the latter recently. I would like to highlight this aspect; perhaps the key to what is currently happening in China lies there. Given that my knowledge of Marx's theory is superficial—and considering that Marx did not outline a precise model for constructing socialism (his work was largely a theoretical analysis of capitalism and its consequences)—it is worth noting that philosophy never sets concrete tasks for the individual. Regarding your view of Marx's philosophy, I can also point out an inaccuracy. You state that Marx envisioned the construction of socialism only within the context of developed capitalism, based on highly advanced productive forces. However, that is not entirely the case. In a letter to Vera Zasulich (dated March 8, 1881), https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%83%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%87,_%D0%92%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B0_%D0%98%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BD%D0%B0 Karl Marx stated that Russia could bypass the painful stage of capitalism. He emphasized that his theory was not a universal historical prescription and that the Russian peasant commune could, under certain conditions, become the nucleus of socialist development. Marx told Zasulich at the time that education was one of the most crucial factors in the possibility of bypassing the agonizing stage of capitalism. The bottom line is this: Lenin and Trotsky supported the NEP, whereas Stalin sided with "Zasulich." Stalin turned out to be entirely right, and he did not deviate from Marx's theory by even a millimeter. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] timdrake@lemmy.ml 1 point 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) In the preface to the 1882 Russian edition of the Manifesto, Marx and Engels say that the Russian commune could “pass directly to the higher form of Communist common ownership” only if the Russian Revolution (which he saw as inevitable, though it was not inevitable that it would "take[] place in time" (first draft of letter to Zasulich), and in the Letter to Otecestvenniye Zapisky he says that if Russia continues on its path, it will have lost this chance to skip the phase of capitalist development) is supported by wider revolution in the West. Otherwise, the Russian commune “must [] first pass through the same process of dissolution such as constitutes the historical evolution of the West.” There’s zero approval by Marx here for the notion of skipping the phase of private production/property in one country without a wider revolution. Marx told Zasulich at the time that education was one of the most crucial factors in the possibility of bypassing the agonizing stage of capitalism. No he didn’t. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago You misinterpret Marx's statement. I'm fully aware of Marx's views on the Russian commune movement, the problem is that you assume the Soviet model is what Marx was referring to, and that a more classically Marxist understanding of socialism was not what he meant. Marx was fairly explicit in what a socialist state would be, one where public ownership is principal and the working classes control the state. The Russian peasantry could have bypassed the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie and went straight to a dictatorship of the proletariat and peasantry, but they would not be able to avoid the problem of transitioning small ownership to large, industrialized ownership without the aid of markets. The fact of the matter is that private property existed de facto in the USSR. One of the mistakes of former socialism was merely trying to punish private ownership, rather than subordinate it to the public sector. Marx analyzed markets as being enormously useful in stitching together all of the small owners and building up productive forces, and public ownership as being superior at running large industry. Stalin ending the NEP early was a matter of survival, and was correct. China's conditions are different, and now occupies a more classically Marxist economy. It isn't even the same as the NEP, China was closer to the NEP under Mao, the socialist market economy of China is a more classically Marxist economy, with the ability to be so precisely because the imperialists cannot afford to decouple from them. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (3 replies) load more comments (5 replies)
[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (19 children) Stalin also made errors and mistakes in socialist construction. You are overweighting Mao's mistakes and ignoring the successes under Mao, the establishment and solidification of socialism in China. The modern CPC has learned from both the successes and mistakes of both Stalin and Mao, while the CPSU decayed. As much as I wish the USSR had not dissolved, it did, and we are in the aftermath of such a tragedy. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 19 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (13 children) I believe you are mistaken, comrade. I am not actually Nikita Khrushchev nor am I Mao Zedong. Any "double-standard" you see with Deng Xiaoping's Reform and Opening Up as a result of problems with the late Mao era and the Gang of Four must be considered from that context, and not merely from one aspect of Mao's critique of Khrushchev's policy before the Gang of Four era. Regarding the Gang of Four, they were largely an extension of Mao's incorrect lines towards the end of his life, without most of his positive lines. Deng Xiaoping corrected the course for the new era of development, having inherited a basically industrialized economy but with widespread poverty and backwards technology. As for China outmaneuvering the west, I agree. This is pretty plainly what happened, despite what the west thought they could get away with, China maintained a dictatorship of the proletariat and maintained political control in the socialist market economy. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 13 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (9 children) It's widely acknowledged that the later Mao era and the era of the Gang of Four was filled with mistakes, and that Reform & Opening Up was a course correction. You may call this "double standards," but learning from mistakes when practice doesn't live up to expectations is how we grow. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 9 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (8 children) It’s widely acknowledged that the later Mao We’ve finally reached a consensus, Comrade! There’s just a slight discrepancy regarding the dates. You say the late Mao era began in 1968, whereas I maintain that the late Mao era you’re referring to actually began after Stalin’s death. Let me just clarify one more thing: from 1950 onwards—after suffering four strokes—Stalin didn’t really make any major decisions in the country. A triumvirate was formed—Malenkov, Beria, and Molotov—to prepare all key state projects, while Stalin merely affixed the final approval. So, in essence, Stalin had already died back in 1950. If we settle on a middle ground... say, 1959—would that work for you, Comrade?... )))) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (7 children) I don't think we are going to come to an agreement here. I wouldn't put a hard date on it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (6 children) Comrade, just so you know: if I use ")))", it means I'm joking. Of course, one shouldn't date events that way. I wanted to highlight the fact that you agreed with me on at least one thing!))) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (5 children) I understand )))! Just not used to seeing it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (4 children) When you see that ")))", you’ll realize you’re talking to a Russian or a Russian speaker. Okay, in that case, let’s talk about humor. Let’s talk about folklore. Folklore isn't about the state; it’s about the people. Folklore reflects the collective mindset of the people—I think you’d agree with that... Vox populi, vox Dei. Here’s a Soviet-era joke; these few lines capture the whole essence: "To launch a satellite, the Chinese formed a human pyramid a thousand stories high, but it collapsed because the guy on the three-hundred-and-seventeenth floor hadn't properly mastered Mao's Little Red Book." You’re an intelligent person, so you surely understand that my views were formed back in early childhood. It’s something ingrained at a subconscious level. So, please forgive me for my past stubbornness. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (3 children) I understand and can empathize with your views, I just have disagreements on certain aspects. These of course are colored by both of our upbringings, you within the Soviet Union and me entirely disconnected from socialism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (2 children) I very often fill gaps in my theoretical knowledge with personal experience—please forgive me for that! I would also like to note that the interpretation of Marx's theory in the USSR was somewhat simplified. For instance, the USSR acknowledged the existence of a primitive communal system but not the "Asiatic mode of production." I only heard about the latter recently. I would like to highlight this aspect; perhaps the key to what is currently happening in China lies there. Given that my knowledge of Marx's theory is superficial—and considering that Marx did not outline a precise model for constructing socialism (his work was largely a theoretical analysis of capitalism and its consequences)—it is worth noting that philosophy never sets concrete tasks for the individual. Regarding your view of Marx's philosophy, I can also point out an inaccuracy. You state that Marx envisioned the construction of socialism only within the context of developed capitalism, based on highly advanced productive forces. However, that is not entirely the case. In a letter to Vera Zasulich (dated March 8, 1881), https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%83%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%87,_%D0%92%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B0_%D0%98%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BD%D0%B0 Karl Marx stated that Russia could bypass the painful stage of capitalism. He emphasized that his theory was not a universal historical prescription and that the Russian peasant commune could, under certain conditions, become the nucleus of socialist development. Marx told Zasulich at the time that education was one of the most crucial factors in the possibility of bypassing the agonizing stage of capitalism. The bottom line is this: Lenin and Trotsky supported the NEP, whereas Stalin sided with "Zasulich." Stalin turned out to be entirely right, and he did not deviate from Marx's theory by even a millimeter. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] timdrake@lemmy.ml 1 point 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) In the preface to the 1882 Russian edition of the Manifesto, Marx and Engels say that the Russian commune could “pass directly to the higher form of Communist common ownership” only if the Russian Revolution (which he saw as inevitable, though it was not inevitable that it would "take[] place in time" (first draft of letter to Zasulich), and in the Letter to Otecestvenniye Zapisky he says that if Russia continues on its path, it will have lost this chance to skip the phase of capitalist development) is supported by wider revolution in the West. Otherwise, the Russian commune “must [] first pass through the same process of dissolution such as constitutes the historical evolution of the West.” There’s zero approval by Marx here for the notion of skipping the phase of private production/property in one country without a wider revolution. Marx told Zasulich at the time that education was one of the most crucial factors in the possibility of bypassing the agonizing stage of capitalism. No he didn’t. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago You misinterpret Marx's statement. I'm fully aware of Marx's views on the Russian commune movement, the problem is that you assume the Soviet model is what Marx was referring to, and that a more classically Marxist understanding of socialism was not what he meant. Marx was fairly explicit in what a socialist state would be, one where public ownership is principal and the working classes control the state. The Russian peasantry could have bypassed the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie and went straight to a dictatorship of the proletariat and peasantry, but they would not be able to avoid the problem of transitioning small ownership to large, industrialized ownership without the aid of markets. The fact of the matter is that private property existed de facto in the USSR. One of the mistakes of former socialism was merely trying to punish private ownership, rather than subordinate it to the public sector. Marx analyzed markets as being enormously useful in stitching together all of the small owners and building up productive forces, and public ownership as being superior at running large industry. Stalin ending the NEP early was a matter of survival, and was correct. China's conditions are different, and now occupies a more classically Marxist economy. It isn't even the same as the NEP, China was closer to the NEP under Mao, the socialist market economy of China is a more classically Marxist economy, with the ability to be so precisely because the imperialists cannot afford to decouple from them. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (3 replies) load more comments (5 replies)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (13 children) I believe you are mistaken, comrade. I am not actually Nikita Khrushchev nor am I Mao Zedong. Any "double-standard" you see with Deng Xiaoping's Reform and Opening Up as a result of problems with the late Mao era and the Gang of Four must be considered from that context, and not merely from one aspect of Mao's critique of Khrushchev's policy before the Gang of Four era. Regarding the Gang of Four, they were largely an extension of Mao's incorrect lines towards the end of his life, without most of his positive lines. Deng Xiaoping corrected the course for the new era of development, having inherited a basically industrialized economy but with widespread poverty and backwards technology. As for China outmaneuvering the west, I agree. This is pretty plainly what happened, despite what the west thought they could get away with, China maintained a dictatorship of the proletariat and maintained political control in the socialist market economy. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 13 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (9 children) It's widely acknowledged that the later Mao era and the era of the Gang of Four was filled with mistakes, and that Reform & Opening Up was a course correction. You may call this "double standards," but learning from mistakes when practice doesn't live up to expectations is how we grow. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 9 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (8 children) It’s widely acknowledged that the later Mao We’ve finally reached a consensus, Comrade! There’s just a slight discrepancy regarding the dates. You say the late Mao era began in 1968, whereas I maintain that the late Mao era you’re referring to actually began after Stalin’s death. Let me just clarify one more thing: from 1950 onwards—after suffering four strokes—Stalin didn’t really make any major decisions in the country. A triumvirate was formed—Malenkov, Beria, and Molotov—to prepare all key state projects, while Stalin merely affixed the final approval. So, in essence, Stalin had already died back in 1950. If we settle on a middle ground... say, 1959—would that work for you, Comrade?... )))) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (7 children) I don't think we are going to come to an agreement here. I wouldn't put a hard date on it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (6 children) Comrade, just so you know: if I use ")))", it means I'm joking. Of course, one shouldn't date events that way. I wanted to highlight the fact that you agreed with me on at least one thing!))) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (5 children) I understand )))! Just not used to seeing it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (4 children) When you see that ")))", you’ll realize you’re talking to a Russian or a Russian speaker. Okay, in that case, let’s talk about humor. Let’s talk about folklore. Folklore isn't about the state; it’s about the people. Folklore reflects the collective mindset of the people—I think you’d agree with that... Vox populi, vox Dei. Here’s a Soviet-era joke; these few lines capture the whole essence: "To launch a satellite, the Chinese formed a human pyramid a thousand stories high, but it collapsed because the guy on the three-hundred-and-seventeenth floor hadn't properly mastered Mao's Little Red Book." You’re an intelligent person, so you surely understand that my views were formed back in early childhood. It’s something ingrained at a subconscious level. So, please forgive me for my past stubbornness. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (3 children) I understand and can empathize with your views, I just have disagreements on certain aspects. These of course are colored by both of our upbringings, you within the Soviet Union and me entirely disconnected from socialism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (2 children) I very often fill gaps in my theoretical knowledge with personal experience—please forgive me for that! I would also like to note that the interpretation of Marx's theory in the USSR was somewhat simplified. For instance, the USSR acknowledged the existence of a primitive communal system but not the "Asiatic mode of production." I only heard about the latter recently. I would like to highlight this aspect; perhaps the key to what is currently happening in China lies there. Given that my knowledge of Marx's theory is superficial—and considering that Marx did not outline a precise model for constructing socialism (his work was largely a theoretical analysis of capitalism and its consequences)—it is worth noting that philosophy never sets concrete tasks for the individual. Regarding your view of Marx's philosophy, I can also point out an inaccuracy. You state that Marx envisioned the construction of socialism only within the context of developed capitalism, based on highly advanced productive forces. However, that is not entirely the case. In a letter to Vera Zasulich (dated March 8, 1881), https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%83%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%87,_%D0%92%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B0_%D0%98%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BD%D0%B0 Karl Marx stated that Russia could bypass the painful stage of capitalism. He emphasized that his theory was not a universal historical prescription and that the Russian peasant commune could, under certain conditions, become the nucleus of socialist development. Marx told Zasulich at the time that education was one of the most crucial factors in the possibility of bypassing the agonizing stage of capitalism. The bottom line is this: Lenin and Trotsky supported the NEP, whereas Stalin sided with "Zasulich." Stalin turned out to be entirely right, and he did not deviate from Marx's theory by even a millimeter. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] timdrake@lemmy.ml 1 point 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) In the preface to the 1882 Russian edition of the Manifesto, Marx and Engels say that the Russian commune could “pass directly to the higher form of Communist common ownership” only if the Russian Revolution (which he saw as inevitable, though it was not inevitable that it would "take[] place in time" (first draft of letter to Zasulich), and in the Letter to Otecestvenniye Zapisky he says that if Russia continues on its path, it will have lost this chance to skip the phase of capitalist development) is supported by wider revolution in the West. Otherwise, the Russian commune “must [] first pass through the same process of dissolution such as constitutes the historical evolution of the West.” There’s zero approval by Marx here for the notion of skipping the phase of private production/property in one country without a wider revolution. Marx told Zasulich at the time that education was one of the most crucial factors in the possibility of bypassing the agonizing stage of capitalism. No he didn’t. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago You misinterpret Marx's statement. I'm fully aware of Marx's views on the Russian commune movement, the problem is that you assume the Soviet model is what Marx was referring to, and that a more classically Marxist understanding of socialism was not what he meant. Marx was fairly explicit in what a socialist state would be, one where public ownership is principal and the working classes control the state. The Russian peasantry could have bypassed the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie and went straight to a dictatorship of the proletariat and peasantry, but they would not be able to avoid the problem of transitioning small ownership to large, industrialized ownership without the aid of markets. The fact of the matter is that private property existed de facto in the USSR. One of the mistakes of former socialism was merely trying to punish private ownership, rather than subordinate it to the public sector. Marx analyzed markets as being enormously useful in stitching together all of the small owners and building up productive forces, and public ownership as being superior at running large industry. Stalin ending the NEP early was a matter of survival, and was correct. China's conditions are different, and now occupies a more classically Marxist economy. It isn't even the same as the NEP, China was closer to the NEP under Mao, the socialist market economy of China is a more classically Marxist economy, with the ability to be so precisely because the imperialists cannot afford to decouple from them. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (3 replies)
[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (13 children) I believe you are mistaken, comrade. I am not actually Nikita Khrushchev nor am I Mao Zedong. Any "double-standard" you see with Deng Xiaoping's Reform and Opening Up as a result of problems with the late Mao era and the Gang of Four must be considered from that context, and not merely from one aspect of Mao's critique of Khrushchev's policy before the Gang of Four era. Regarding the Gang of Four, they were largely an extension of Mao's incorrect lines towards the end of his life, without most of his positive lines. Deng Xiaoping corrected the course for the new era of development, having inherited a basically industrialized economy but with widespread poverty and backwards technology. As for China outmaneuvering the west, I agree. This is pretty plainly what happened, despite what the west thought they could get away with, China maintained a dictatorship of the proletariat and maintained political control in the socialist market economy. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 13 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (9 children) It's widely acknowledged that the later Mao era and the era of the Gang of Four was filled with mistakes, and that Reform & Opening Up was a course correction. You may call this "double standards," but learning from mistakes when practice doesn't live up to expectations is how we grow. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 9 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (8 children) It’s widely acknowledged that the later Mao We’ve finally reached a consensus, Comrade! There’s just a slight discrepancy regarding the dates. You say the late Mao era began in 1968, whereas I maintain that the late Mao era you’re referring to actually began after Stalin’s death. Let me just clarify one more thing: from 1950 onwards—after suffering four strokes—Stalin didn’t really make any major decisions in the country. A triumvirate was formed—Malenkov, Beria, and Molotov—to prepare all key state projects, while Stalin merely affixed the final approval. So, in essence, Stalin had already died back in 1950. If we settle on a middle ground... say, 1959—would that work for you, Comrade?... )))) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (7 children) I don't think we are going to come to an agreement here. I wouldn't put a hard date on it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (6 children) Comrade, just so you know: if I use ")))", it means I'm joking. Of course, one shouldn't date events that way. I wanted to highlight the fact that you agreed with me on at least one thing!))) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (5 children) I understand )))! Just not used to seeing it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (4 children) When you see that ")))", you’ll realize you’re talking to a Russian or a Russian speaker. Okay, in that case, let’s talk about humor. Let’s talk about folklore. Folklore isn't about the state; it’s about the people. Folklore reflects the collective mindset of the people—I think you’d agree with that... Vox populi, vox Dei. Here’s a Soviet-era joke; these few lines capture the whole essence: "To launch a satellite, the Chinese formed a human pyramid a thousand stories high, but it collapsed because the guy on the three-hundred-and-seventeenth floor hadn't properly mastered Mao's Little Red Book." You’re an intelligent person, so you surely understand that my views were formed back in early childhood. It’s something ingrained at a subconscious level. So, please forgive me for my past stubbornness. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (3 children) I understand and can empathize with your views, I just have disagreements on certain aspects. These of course are colored by both of our upbringings, you within the Soviet Union and me entirely disconnected from socialism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (2 children) I very often fill gaps in my theoretical knowledge with personal experience—please forgive me for that! I would also like to note that the interpretation of Marx's theory in the USSR was somewhat simplified. For instance, the USSR acknowledged the existence of a primitive communal system but not the "Asiatic mode of production." I only heard about the latter recently. I would like to highlight this aspect; perhaps the key to what is currently happening in China lies there. Given that my knowledge of Marx's theory is superficial—and considering that Marx did not outline a precise model for constructing socialism (his work was largely a theoretical analysis of capitalism and its consequences)—it is worth noting that philosophy never sets concrete tasks for the individual. Regarding your view of Marx's philosophy, I can also point out an inaccuracy. You state that Marx envisioned the construction of socialism only within the context of developed capitalism, based on highly advanced productive forces. However, that is not entirely the case. In a letter to Vera Zasulich (dated March 8, 1881), https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%83%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%87,_%D0%92%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B0_%D0%98%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BD%D0%B0 Karl Marx stated that Russia could bypass the painful stage of capitalism. He emphasized that his theory was not a universal historical prescription and that the Russian peasant commune could, under certain conditions, become the nucleus of socialist development. Marx told Zasulich at the time that education was one of the most crucial factors in the possibility of bypassing the agonizing stage of capitalism. The bottom line is this: Lenin and Trotsky supported the NEP, whereas Stalin sided with "Zasulich." Stalin turned out to be entirely right, and he did not deviate from Marx's theory by even a millimeter. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] timdrake@lemmy.ml 1 point 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) In the preface to the 1882 Russian edition of the Manifesto, Marx and Engels say that the Russian commune could “pass directly to the higher form of Communist common ownership” only if the Russian Revolution (which he saw as inevitable, though it was not inevitable that it would "take[] place in time" (first draft of letter to Zasulich), and in the Letter to Otecestvenniye Zapisky he says that if Russia continues on its path, it will have lost this chance to skip the phase of capitalist development) is supported by wider revolution in the West. Otherwise, the Russian commune “must [] first pass through the same process of dissolution such as constitutes the historical evolution of the West.” There’s zero approval by Marx here for the notion of skipping the phase of private production/property in one country without a wider revolution. Marx told Zasulich at the time that education was one of the most crucial factors in the possibility of bypassing the agonizing stage of capitalism. No he didn’t. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago You misinterpret Marx's statement. I'm fully aware of Marx's views on the Russian commune movement, the problem is that you assume the Soviet model is what Marx was referring to, and that a more classically Marxist understanding of socialism was not what he meant. Marx was fairly explicit in what a socialist state would be, one where public ownership is principal and the working classes control the state. The Russian peasantry could have bypassed the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie and went straight to a dictatorship of the proletariat and peasantry, but they would not be able to avoid the problem of transitioning small ownership to large, industrialized ownership without the aid of markets. The fact of the matter is that private property existed de facto in the USSR. One of the mistakes of former socialism was merely trying to punish private ownership, rather than subordinate it to the public sector. Marx analyzed markets as being enormously useful in stitching together all of the small owners and building up productive forces, and public ownership as being superior at running large industry. Stalin ending the NEP early was a matter of survival, and was correct. China's conditions are different, and now occupies a more classically Marxist economy. It isn't even the same as the NEP, China was closer to the NEP under Mao, the socialist market economy of China is a more classically Marxist economy, with the ability to be so precisely because the imperialists cannot afford to decouple from them. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (3 replies)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (9 children) It's widely acknowledged that the later Mao era and the era of the Gang of Four was filled with mistakes, and that Reform & Opening Up was a course correction. You may call this "double standards," but learning from mistakes when practice doesn't live up to expectations is how we grow. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 9 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (8 children) It’s widely acknowledged that the later Mao We’ve finally reached a consensus, Comrade! There’s just a slight discrepancy regarding the dates. You say the late Mao era began in 1968, whereas I maintain that the late Mao era you’re referring to actually began after Stalin’s death. Let me just clarify one more thing: from 1950 onwards—after suffering four strokes—Stalin didn’t really make any major decisions in the country. A triumvirate was formed—Malenkov, Beria, and Molotov—to prepare all key state projects, while Stalin merely affixed the final approval. So, in essence, Stalin had already died back in 1950. If we settle on a middle ground... say, 1959—would that work for you, Comrade?... )))) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (7 children) I don't think we are going to come to an agreement here. I wouldn't put a hard date on it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (6 children) Comrade, just so you know: if I use ")))", it means I'm joking. Of course, one shouldn't date events that way. I wanted to highlight the fact that you agreed with me on at least one thing!))) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (5 children) I understand )))! Just not used to seeing it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (4 children) When you see that ")))", you’ll realize you’re talking to a Russian or a Russian speaker. Okay, in that case, let’s talk about humor. Let’s talk about folklore. Folklore isn't about the state; it’s about the people. Folklore reflects the collective mindset of the people—I think you’d agree with that... Vox populi, vox Dei. Here’s a Soviet-era joke; these few lines capture the whole essence: "To launch a satellite, the Chinese formed a human pyramid a thousand stories high, but it collapsed because the guy on the three-hundred-and-seventeenth floor hadn't properly mastered Mao's Little Red Book." You’re an intelligent person, so you surely understand that my views were formed back in early childhood. It’s something ingrained at a subconscious level. So, please forgive me for my past stubbornness. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (3 children) I understand and can empathize with your views, I just have disagreements on certain aspects. These of course are colored by both of our upbringings, you within the Soviet Union and me entirely disconnected from socialism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (2 children) I very often fill gaps in my theoretical knowledge with personal experience—please forgive me for that! I would also like to note that the interpretation of Marx's theory in the USSR was somewhat simplified. For instance, the USSR acknowledged the existence of a primitive communal system but not the "Asiatic mode of production." I only heard about the latter recently. I would like to highlight this aspect; perhaps the key to what is currently happening in China lies there. Given that my knowledge of Marx's theory is superficial—and considering that Marx did not outline a precise model for constructing socialism (his work was largely a theoretical analysis of capitalism and its consequences)—it is worth noting that philosophy never sets concrete tasks for the individual. Regarding your view of Marx's philosophy, I can also point out an inaccuracy. You state that Marx envisioned the construction of socialism only within the context of developed capitalism, based on highly advanced productive forces. However, that is not entirely the case. In a letter to Vera Zasulich (dated March 8, 1881), https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%83%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%87,_%D0%92%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B0_%D0%98%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BD%D0%B0 Karl Marx stated that Russia could bypass the painful stage of capitalism. He emphasized that his theory was not a universal historical prescription and that the Russian peasant commune could, under certain conditions, become the nucleus of socialist development. Marx told Zasulich at the time that education was one of the most crucial factors in the possibility of bypassing the agonizing stage of capitalism. The bottom line is this: Lenin and Trotsky supported the NEP, whereas Stalin sided with "Zasulich." Stalin turned out to be entirely right, and he did not deviate from Marx's theory by even a millimeter. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] timdrake@lemmy.ml 1 point 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) In the preface to the 1882 Russian edition of the Manifesto, Marx and Engels say that the Russian commune could “pass directly to the higher form of Communist common ownership” only if the Russian Revolution (which he saw as inevitable, though it was not inevitable that it would "take[] place in time" (first draft of letter to Zasulich), and in the Letter to Otecestvenniye Zapisky he says that if Russia continues on its path, it will have lost this chance to skip the phase of capitalist development) is supported by wider revolution in the West. Otherwise, the Russian commune “must [] first pass through the same process of dissolution such as constitutes the historical evolution of the West.” There’s zero approval by Marx here for the notion of skipping the phase of private production/property in one country without a wider revolution. Marx told Zasulich at the time that education was one of the most crucial factors in the possibility of bypassing the agonizing stage of capitalism. No he didn’t. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago You misinterpret Marx's statement. I'm fully aware of Marx's views on the Russian commune movement, the problem is that you assume the Soviet model is what Marx was referring to, and that a more classically Marxist understanding of socialism was not what he meant. Marx was fairly explicit in what a socialist state would be, one where public ownership is principal and the working classes control the state. The Russian peasantry could have bypassed the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie and went straight to a dictatorship of the proletariat and peasantry, but they would not be able to avoid the problem of transitioning small ownership to large, industrialized ownership without the aid of markets. The fact of the matter is that private property existed de facto in the USSR. One of the mistakes of former socialism was merely trying to punish private ownership, rather than subordinate it to the public sector. Marx analyzed markets as being enormously useful in stitching together all of the small owners and building up productive forces, and public ownership as being superior at running large industry. Stalin ending the NEP early was a matter of survival, and was correct. China's conditions are different, and now occupies a more classically Marxist economy. It isn't even the same as the NEP, China was closer to the NEP under Mao, the socialist market economy of China is a more classically Marxist economy, with the ability to be so precisely because the imperialists cannot afford to decouple from them. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (9 children) It's widely acknowledged that the later Mao era and the era of the Gang of Four was filled with mistakes, and that Reform & Opening Up was a course correction. You may call this "double standards," but learning from mistakes when practice doesn't live up to expectations is how we grow. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 9 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (8 children) It’s widely acknowledged that the later Mao We’ve finally reached a consensus, Comrade! There’s just a slight discrepancy regarding the dates. You say the late Mao era began in 1968, whereas I maintain that the late Mao era you’re referring to actually began after Stalin’s death. Let me just clarify one more thing: from 1950 onwards—after suffering four strokes—Stalin didn’t really make any major decisions in the country. A triumvirate was formed—Malenkov, Beria, and Molotov—to prepare all key state projects, while Stalin merely affixed the final approval. So, in essence, Stalin had already died back in 1950. If we settle on a middle ground... say, 1959—would that work for you, Comrade?... )))) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (7 children) I don't think we are going to come to an agreement here. I wouldn't put a hard date on it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (6 children) Comrade, just so you know: if I use ")))", it means I'm joking. Of course, one shouldn't date events that way. I wanted to highlight the fact that you agreed with me on at least one thing!))) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (5 children) I understand )))! Just not used to seeing it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (4 children) When you see that ")))", you’ll realize you’re talking to a Russian or a Russian speaker. Okay, in that case, let’s talk about humor. Let’s talk about folklore. Folklore isn't about the state; it’s about the people. Folklore reflects the collective mindset of the people—I think you’d agree with that... Vox populi, vox Dei. Here’s a Soviet-era joke; these few lines capture the whole essence: "To launch a satellite, the Chinese formed a human pyramid a thousand stories high, but it collapsed because the guy on the three-hundred-and-seventeenth floor hadn't properly mastered Mao's Little Red Book." You’re an intelligent person, so you surely understand that my views were formed back in early childhood. It’s something ingrained at a subconscious level. So, please forgive me for my past stubbornness. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (3 children) I understand and can empathize with your views, I just have disagreements on certain aspects. These of course are colored by both of our upbringings, you within the Soviet Union and me entirely disconnected from socialism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (2 children) I very often fill gaps in my theoretical knowledge with personal experience—please forgive me for that! I would also like to note that the interpretation of Marx's theory in the USSR was somewhat simplified. For instance, the USSR acknowledged the existence of a primitive communal system but not the "Asiatic mode of production." I only heard about the latter recently. I would like to highlight this aspect; perhaps the key to what is currently happening in China lies there. Given that my knowledge of Marx's theory is superficial—and considering that Marx did not outline a precise model for constructing socialism (his work was largely a theoretical analysis of capitalism and its consequences)—it is worth noting that philosophy never sets concrete tasks for the individual. Regarding your view of Marx's philosophy, I can also point out an inaccuracy. You state that Marx envisioned the construction of socialism only within the context of developed capitalism, based on highly advanced productive forces. However, that is not entirely the case. In a letter to Vera Zasulich (dated March 8, 1881), https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%83%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%87,_%D0%92%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B0_%D0%98%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BD%D0%B0 Karl Marx stated that Russia could bypass the painful stage of capitalism. He emphasized that his theory was not a universal historical prescription and that the Russian peasant commune could, under certain conditions, become the nucleus of socialist development. Marx told Zasulich at the time that education was one of the most crucial factors in the possibility of bypassing the agonizing stage of capitalism. The bottom line is this: Lenin and Trotsky supported the NEP, whereas Stalin sided with "Zasulich." Stalin turned out to be entirely right, and he did not deviate from Marx's theory by even a millimeter. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] timdrake@lemmy.ml 1 point 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) In the preface to the 1882 Russian edition of the Manifesto, Marx and Engels say that the Russian commune could “pass directly to the higher form of Communist common ownership” only if the Russian Revolution (which he saw as inevitable, though it was not inevitable that it would "take[] place in time" (first draft of letter to Zasulich), and in the Letter to Otecestvenniye Zapisky he says that if Russia continues on its path, it will have lost this chance to skip the phase of capitalist development) is supported by wider revolution in the West. Otherwise, the Russian commune “must [] first pass through the same process of dissolution such as constitutes the historical evolution of the West.” There’s zero approval by Marx here for the notion of skipping the phase of private production/property in one country without a wider revolution. Marx told Zasulich at the time that education was one of the most crucial factors in the possibility of bypassing the agonizing stage of capitalism. No he didn’t. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago You misinterpret Marx's statement. I'm fully aware of Marx's views on the Russian commune movement, the problem is that you assume the Soviet model is what Marx was referring to, and that a more classically Marxist understanding of socialism was not what he meant. Marx was fairly explicit in what a socialist state would be, one where public ownership is principal and the working classes control the state. The Russian peasantry could have bypassed the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie and went straight to a dictatorship of the proletariat and peasantry, but they would not be able to avoid the problem of transitioning small ownership to large, industrialized ownership without the aid of markets. The fact of the matter is that private property existed de facto in the USSR. One of the mistakes of former socialism was merely trying to punish private ownership, rather than subordinate it to the public sector. Marx analyzed markets as being enormously useful in stitching together all of the small owners and building up productive forces, and public ownership as being superior at running large industry. Stalin ending the NEP early was a matter of survival, and was correct. China's conditions are different, and now occupies a more classically Marxist economy. It isn't even the same as the NEP, China was closer to the NEP under Mao, the socialist market economy of China is a more classically Marxist economy, with the ability to be so precisely because the imperialists cannot afford to decouple from them. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (8 children) It’s widely acknowledged that the later Mao We’ve finally reached a consensus, Comrade! There’s just a slight discrepancy regarding the dates. You say the late Mao era began in 1968, whereas I maintain that the late Mao era you’re referring to actually began after Stalin’s death. Let me just clarify one more thing: from 1950 onwards—after suffering four strokes—Stalin didn’t really make any major decisions in the country. A triumvirate was formed—Malenkov, Beria, and Molotov—to prepare all key state projects, while Stalin merely affixed the final approval. So, in essence, Stalin had already died back in 1950. If we settle on a middle ground... say, 1959—would that work for you, Comrade?... )))) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (7 children) I don't think we are going to come to an agreement here. I wouldn't put a hard date on it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (6 children) Comrade, just so you know: if I use ")))", it means I'm joking. Of course, one shouldn't date events that way. I wanted to highlight the fact that you agreed with me on at least one thing!))) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (5 children) I understand )))! Just not used to seeing it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (4 children) When you see that ")))", you’ll realize you’re talking to a Russian or a Russian speaker. Okay, in that case, let’s talk about humor. Let’s talk about folklore. Folklore isn't about the state; it’s about the people. Folklore reflects the collective mindset of the people—I think you’d agree with that... Vox populi, vox Dei. Here’s a Soviet-era joke; these few lines capture the whole essence: "To launch a satellite, the Chinese formed a human pyramid a thousand stories high, but it collapsed because the guy on the three-hundred-and-seventeenth floor hadn't properly mastered Mao's Little Red Book." You’re an intelligent person, so you surely understand that my views were formed back in early childhood. It’s something ingrained at a subconscious level. So, please forgive me for my past stubbornness. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (3 children) I understand and can empathize with your views, I just have disagreements on certain aspects. These of course are colored by both of our upbringings, you within the Soviet Union and me entirely disconnected from socialism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (2 children) I very often fill gaps in my theoretical knowledge with personal experience—please forgive me for that! I would also like to note that the interpretation of Marx's theory in the USSR was somewhat simplified. For instance, the USSR acknowledged the existence of a primitive communal system but not the "Asiatic mode of production." I only heard about the latter recently. I would like to highlight this aspect; perhaps the key to what is currently happening in China lies there. Given that my knowledge of Marx's theory is superficial—and considering that Marx did not outline a precise model for constructing socialism (his work was largely a theoretical analysis of capitalism and its consequences)—it is worth noting that philosophy never sets concrete tasks for the individual. Regarding your view of Marx's philosophy, I can also point out an inaccuracy. You state that Marx envisioned the construction of socialism only within the context of developed capitalism, based on highly advanced productive forces. However, that is not entirely the case. In a letter to Vera Zasulich (dated March 8, 1881), https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%83%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%87,_%D0%92%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B0_%D0%98%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BD%D0%B0 Karl Marx stated that Russia could bypass the painful stage of capitalism. He emphasized that his theory was not a universal historical prescription and that the Russian peasant commune could, under certain conditions, become the nucleus of socialist development. Marx told Zasulich at the time that education was one of the most crucial factors in the possibility of bypassing the agonizing stage of capitalism. The bottom line is this: Lenin and Trotsky supported the NEP, whereas Stalin sided with "Zasulich." Stalin turned out to be entirely right, and he did not deviate from Marx's theory by even a millimeter. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] timdrake@lemmy.ml 1 point 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) In the preface to the 1882 Russian edition of the Manifesto, Marx and Engels say that the Russian commune could “pass directly to the higher form of Communist common ownership” only if the Russian Revolution (which he saw as inevitable, though it was not inevitable that it would "take[] place in time" (first draft of letter to Zasulich), and in the Letter to Otecestvenniye Zapisky he says that if Russia continues on its path, it will have lost this chance to skip the phase of capitalist development) is supported by wider revolution in the West. Otherwise, the Russian commune “must [] first pass through the same process of dissolution such as constitutes the historical evolution of the West.” There’s zero approval by Marx here for the notion of skipping the phase of private production/property in one country without a wider revolution. Marx told Zasulich at the time that education was one of the most crucial factors in the possibility of bypassing the agonizing stage of capitalism. No he didn’t. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago You misinterpret Marx's statement. I'm fully aware of Marx's views on the Russian commune movement, the problem is that you assume the Soviet model is what Marx was referring to, and that a more classically Marxist understanding of socialism was not what he meant. Marx was fairly explicit in what a socialist state would be, one where public ownership is principal and the working classes control the state. The Russian peasantry could have bypassed the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie and went straight to a dictatorship of the proletariat and peasantry, but they would not be able to avoid the problem of transitioning small ownership to large, industrialized ownership without the aid of markets. The fact of the matter is that private property existed de facto in the USSR. One of the mistakes of former socialism was merely trying to punish private ownership, rather than subordinate it to the public sector. Marx analyzed markets as being enormously useful in stitching together all of the small owners and building up productive forces, and public ownership as being superior at running large industry. Stalin ending the NEP early was a matter of survival, and was correct. China's conditions are different, and now occupies a more classically Marxist economy. It isn't even the same as the NEP, China was closer to the NEP under Mao, the socialist market economy of China is a more classically Marxist economy, with the ability to be so precisely because the imperialists cannot afford to decouple from them. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (7 children) I don't think we are going to come to an agreement here. I wouldn't put a hard date on it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (6 children) Comrade, just so you know: if I use ")))", it means I'm joking. Of course, one shouldn't date events that way. I wanted to highlight the fact that you agreed with me on at least one thing!))) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (5 children) I understand )))! Just not used to seeing it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (4 children) When you see that ")))", you’ll realize you’re talking to a Russian or a Russian speaker. Okay, in that case, let’s talk about humor. Let’s talk about folklore. Folklore isn't about the state; it’s about the people. Folklore reflects the collective mindset of the people—I think you’d agree with that... Vox populi, vox Dei. Here’s a Soviet-era joke; these few lines capture the whole essence: "To launch a satellite, the Chinese formed a human pyramid a thousand stories high, but it collapsed because the guy on the three-hundred-and-seventeenth floor hadn't properly mastered Mao's Little Red Book." You’re an intelligent person, so you surely understand that my views were formed back in early childhood. It’s something ingrained at a subconscious level. So, please forgive me for my past stubbornness. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (3 children) I understand and can empathize with your views, I just have disagreements on certain aspects. These of course are colored by both of our upbringings, you within the Soviet Union and me entirely disconnected from socialism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (2 children) I very often fill gaps in my theoretical knowledge with personal experience—please forgive me for that! I would also like to note that the interpretation of Marx's theory in the USSR was somewhat simplified. For instance, the USSR acknowledged the existence of a primitive communal system but not the "Asiatic mode of production." I only heard about the latter recently. I would like to highlight this aspect; perhaps the key to what is currently happening in China lies there. Given that my knowledge of Marx's theory is superficial—and considering that Marx did not outline a precise model for constructing socialism (his work was largely a theoretical analysis of capitalism and its consequences)—it is worth noting that philosophy never sets concrete tasks for the individual. Regarding your view of Marx's philosophy, I can also point out an inaccuracy. You state that Marx envisioned the construction of socialism only within the context of developed capitalism, based on highly advanced productive forces. However, that is not entirely the case. In a letter to Vera Zasulich (dated March 8, 1881), https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%83%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%87,_%D0%92%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B0_%D0%98%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BD%D0%B0 Karl Marx stated that Russia could bypass the painful stage of capitalism. He emphasized that his theory was not a universal historical prescription and that the Russian peasant commune could, under certain conditions, become the nucleus of socialist development. Marx told Zasulich at the time that education was one of the most crucial factors in the possibility of bypassing the agonizing stage of capitalism. The bottom line is this: Lenin and Trotsky supported the NEP, whereas Stalin sided with "Zasulich." Stalin turned out to be entirely right, and he did not deviate from Marx's theory by even a millimeter. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] timdrake@lemmy.ml 1 point 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) In the preface to the 1882 Russian edition of the Manifesto, Marx and Engels say that the Russian commune could “pass directly to the higher form of Communist common ownership” only if the Russian Revolution (which he saw as inevitable, though it was not inevitable that it would "take[] place in time" (first draft of letter to Zasulich), and in the Letter to Otecestvenniye Zapisky he says that if Russia continues on its path, it will have lost this chance to skip the phase of capitalist development) is supported by wider revolution in the West. Otherwise, the Russian commune “must [] first pass through the same process of dissolution such as constitutes the historical evolution of the West.” There’s zero approval by Marx here for the notion of skipping the phase of private production/property in one country without a wider revolution. Marx told Zasulich at the time that education was one of the most crucial factors in the possibility of bypassing the agonizing stage of capitalism. No he didn’t. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago You misinterpret Marx's statement. I'm fully aware of Marx's views on the Russian commune movement, the problem is that you assume the Soviet model is what Marx was referring to, and that a more classically Marxist understanding of socialism was not what he meant. Marx was fairly explicit in what a socialist state would be, one where public ownership is principal and the working classes control the state. The Russian peasantry could have bypassed the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie and went straight to a dictatorship of the proletariat and peasantry, but they would not be able to avoid the problem of transitioning small ownership to large, industrialized ownership without the aid of markets. The fact of the matter is that private property existed de facto in the USSR. One of the mistakes of former socialism was merely trying to punish private ownership, rather than subordinate it to the public sector. Marx analyzed markets as being enormously useful in stitching together all of the small owners and building up productive forces, and public ownership as being superior at running large industry. Stalin ending the NEP early was a matter of survival, and was correct. China's conditions are different, and now occupies a more classically Marxist economy. It isn't even the same as the NEP, China was closer to the NEP under Mao, the socialist market economy of China is a more classically Marxist economy, with the ability to be so precisely because the imperialists cannot afford to decouple from them. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (6 children) Comrade, just so you know: if I use ")))", it means I'm joking. Of course, one shouldn't date events that way. I wanted to highlight the fact that you agreed with me on at least one thing!))) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (5 children) I understand )))! Just not used to seeing it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (4 children) When you see that ")))", you’ll realize you’re talking to a Russian or a Russian speaker. Okay, in that case, let’s talk about humor. Let’s talk about folklore. Folklore isn't about the state; it’s about the people. Folklore reflects the collective mindset of the people—I think you’d agree with that... Vox populi, vox Dei. Here’s a Soviet-era joke; these few lines capture the whole essence: "To launch a satellite, the Chinese formed a human pyramid a thousand stories high, but it collapsed because the guy on the three-hundred-and-seventeenth floor hadn't properly mastered Mao's Little Red Book." You’re an intelligent person, so you surely understand that my views were formed back in early childhood. It’s something ingrained at a subconscious level. So, please forgive me for my past stubbornness. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (3 children) I understand and can empathize with your views, I just have disagreements on certain aspects. These of course are colored by both of our upbringings, you within the Soviet Union and me entirely disconnected from socialism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (2 children) I very often fill gaps in my theoretical knowledge with personal experience—please forgive me for that! I would also like to note that the interpretation of Marx's theory in the USSR was somewhat simplified. For instance, the USSR acknowledged the existence of a primitive communal system but not the "Asiatic mode of production." I only heard about the latter recently. I would like to highlight this aspect; perhaps the key to what is currently happening in China lies there. Given that my knowledge of Marx's theory is superficial—and considering that Marx did not outline a precise model for constructing socialism (his work was largely a theoretical analysis of capitalism and its consequences)—it is worth noting that philosophy never sets concrete tasks for the individual. Regarding your view of Marx's philosophy, I can also point out an inaccuracy. You state that Marx envisioned the construction of socialism only within the context of developed capitalism, based on highly advanced productive forces. However, that is not entirely the case. In a letter to Vera Zasulich (dated March 8, 1881), https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%83%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%87,_%D0%92%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B0_%D0%98%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BD%D0%B0 Karl Marx stated that Russia could bypass the painful stage of capitalism. He emphasized that his theory was not a universal historical prescription and that the Russian peasant commune could, under certain conditions, become the nucleus of socialist development. Marx told Zasulich at the time that education was one of the most crucial factors in the possibility of bypassing the agonizing stage of capitalism. The bottom line is this: Lenin and Trotsky supported the NEP, whereas Stalin sided with "Zasulich." Stalin turned out to be entirely right, and he did not deviate from Marx's theory by even a millimeter. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] timdrake@lemmy.ml 1 point 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) In the preface to the 1882 Russian edition of the Manifesto, Marx and Engels say that the Russian commune could “pass directly to the higher form of Communist common ownership” only if the Russian Revolution (which he saw as inevitable, though it was not inevitable that it would "take[] place in time" (first draft of letter to Zasulich), and in the Letter to Otecestvenniye Zapisky he says that if Russia continues on its path, it will have lost this chance to skip the phase of capitalist development) is supported by wider revolution in the West. Otherwise, the Russian commune “must [] first pass through the same process of dissolution such as constitutes the historical evolution of the West.” There’s zero approval by Marx here for the notion of skipping the phase of private production/property in one country without a wider revolution. Marx told Zasulich at the time that education was one of the most crucial factors in the possibility of bypassing the agonizing stage of capitalism. No he didn’t. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago You misinterpret Marx's statement. I'm fully aware of Marx's views on the Russian commune movement, the problem is that you assume the Soviet model is what Marx was referring to, and that a more classically Marxist understanding of socialism was not what he meant. Marx was fairly explicit in what a socialist state would be, one where public ownership is principal and the working classes control the state. The Russian peasantry could have bypassed the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie and went straight to a dictatorship of the proletariat and peasantry, but they would not be able to avoid the problem of transitioning small ownership to large, industrialized ownership without the aid of markets. The fact of the matter is that private property existed de facto in the USSR. One of the mistakes of former socialism was merely trying to punish private ownership, rather than subordinate it to the public sector. Marx analyzed markets as being enormously useful in stitching together all of the small owners and building up productive forces, and public ownership as being superior at running large industry. Stalin ending the NEP early was a matter of survival, and was correct. China's conditions are different, and now occupies a more classically Marxist economy. It isn't even the same as the NEP, China was closer to the NEP under Mao, the socialist market economy of China is a more classically Marxist economy, with the ability to be so precisely because the imperialists cannot afford to decouple from them. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (5 children) I understand )))! Just not used to seeing it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (4 children) When you see that ")))", you’ll realize you’re talking to a Russian or a Russian speaker. Okay, in that case, let’s talk about humor. Let’s talk about folklore. Folklore isn't about the state; it’s about the people. Folklore reflects the collective mindset of the people—I think you’d agree with that... Vox populi, vox Dei. Here’s a Soviet-era joke; these few lines capture the whole essence: "To launch a satellite, the Chinese formed a human pyramid a thousand stories high, but it collapsed because the guy on the three-hundred-and-seventeenth floor hadn't properly mastered Mao's Little Red Book." You’re an intelligent person, so you surely understand that my views were formed back in early childhood. It’s something ingrained at a subconscious level. So, please forgive me for my past stubbornness. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (3 children) I understand and can empathize with your views, I just have disagreements on certain aspects. These of course are colored by both of our upbringings, you within the Soviet Union and me entirely disconnected from socialism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (2 children) I very often fill gaps in my theoretical knowledge with personal experience—please forgive me for that! I would also like to note that the interpretation of Marx's theory in the USSR was somewhat simplified. For instance, the USSR acknowledged the existence of a primitive communal system but not the "Asiatic mode of production." I only heard about the latter recently. I would like to highlight this aspect; perhaps the key to what is currently happening in China lies there. Given that my knowledge of Marx's theory is superficial—and considering that Marx did not outline a precise model for constructing socialism (his work was largely a theoretical analysis of capitalism and its consequences)—it is worth noting that philosophy never sets concrete tasks for the individual. Regarding your view of Marx's philosophy, I can also point out an inaccuracy. You state that Marx envisioned the construction of socialism only within the context of developed capitalism, based on highly advanced productive forces. However, that is not entirely the case. In a letter to Vera Zasulich (dated March 8, 1881), https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%83%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%87,_%D0%92%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B0_%D0%98%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BD%D0%B0 Karl Marx stated that Russia could bypass the painful stage of capitalism. He emphasized that his theory was not a universal historical prescription and that the Russian peasant commune could, under certain conditions, become the nucleus of socialist development. Marx told Zasulich at the time that education was one of the most crucial factors in the possibility of bypassing the agonizing stage of capitalism. The bottom line is this: Lenin and Trotsky supported the NEP, whereas Stalin sided with "Zasulich." Stalin turned out to be entirely right, and he did not deviate from Marx's theory by even a millimeter. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] timdrake@lemmy.ml 1 point 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) In the preface to the 1882 Russian edition of the Manifesto, Marx and Engels say that the Russian commune could “pass directly to the higher form of Communist common ownership” only if the Russian Revolution (which he saw as inevitable, though it was not inevitable that it would "take[] place in time" (first draft of letter to Zasulich), and in the Letter to Otecestvenniye Zapisky he says that if Russia continues on its path, it will have lost this chance to skip the phase of capitalist development) is supported by wider revolution in the West. Otherwise, the Russian commune “must [] first pass through the same process of dissolution such as constitutes the historical evolution of the West.” There’s zero approval by Marx here for the notion of skipping the phase of private production/property in one country without a wider revolution. Marx told Zasulich at the time that education was one of the most crucial factors in the possibility of bypassing the agonizing stage of capitalism. No he didn’t. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago You misinterpret Marx's statement. I'm fully aware of Marx's views on the Russian commune movement, the problem is that you assume the Soviet model is what Marx was referring to, and that a more classically Marxist understanding of socialism was not what he meant. Marx was fairly explicit in what a socialist state would be, one where public ownership is principal and the working classes control the state. The Russian peasantry could have bypassed the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie and went straight to a dictatorship of the proletariat and peasantry, but they would not be able to avoid the problem of transitioning small ownership to large, industrialized ownership without the aid of markets. The fact of the matter is that private property existed de facto in the USSR. One of the mistakes of former socialism was merely trying to punish private ownership, rather than subordinate it to the public sector. Marx analyzed markets as being enormously useful in stitching together all of the small owners and building up productive forces, and public ownership as being superior at running large industry. Stalin ending the NEP early was a matter of survival, and was correct. China's conditions are different, and now occupies a more classically Marxist economy. It isn't even the same as the NEP, China was closer to the NEP under Mao, the socialist market economy of China is a more classically Marxist economy, with the ability to be so precisely because the imperialists cannot afford to decouple from them. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (4 children) When you see that ")))", you’ll realize you’re talking to a Russian or a Russian speaker. Okay, in that case, let’s talk about humor. Let’s talk about folklore. Folklore isn't about the state; it’s about the people. Folklore reflects the collective mindset of the people—I think you’d agree with that... Vox populi, vox Dei. Here’s a Soviet-era joke; these few lines capture the whole essence: "To launch a satellite, the Chinese formed a human pyramid a thousand stories high, but it collapsed because the guy on the three-hundred-and-seventeenth floor hadn't properly mastered Mao's Little Red Book." You’re an intelligent person, so you surely understand that my views were formed back in early childhood. It’s something ingrained at a subconscious level. So, please forgive me for my past stubbornness. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (3 children) I understand and can empathize with your views, I just have disagreements on certain aspects. These of course are colored by both of our upbringings, you within the Soviet Union and me entirely disconnected from socialism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (2 children) I very often fill gaps in my theoretical knowledge with personal experience—please forgive me for that! I would also like to note that the interpretation of Marx's theory in the USSR was somewhat simplified. For instance, the USSR acknowledged the existence of a primitive communal system but not the "Asiatic mode of production." I only heard about the latter recently. I would like to highlight this aspect; perhaps the key to what is currently happening in China lies there. Given that my knowledge of Marx's theory is superficial—and considering that Marx did not outline a precise model for constructing socialism (his work was largely a theoretical analysis of capitalism and its consequences)—it is worth noting that philosophy never sets concrete tasks for the individual. Regarding your view of Marx's philosophy, I can also point out an inaccuracy. You state that Marx envisioned the construction of socialism only within the context of developed capitalism, based on highly advanced productive forces. However, that is not entirely the case. In a letter to Vera Zasulich (dated March 8, 1881), https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%83%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%87,_%D0%92%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B0_%D0%98%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BD%D0%B0 Karl Marx stated that Russia could bypass the painful stage of capitalism. He emphasized that his theory was not a universal historical prescription and that the Russian peasant commune could, under certain conditions, become the nucleus of socialist development. Marx told Zasulich at the time that education was one of the most crucial factors in the possibility of bypassing the agonizing stage of capitalism. The bottom line is this: Lenin and Trotsky supported the NEP, whereas Stalin sided with "Zasulich." Stalin turned out to be entirely right, and he did not deviate from Marx's theory by even a millimeter. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] timdrake@lemmy.ml 1 point 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) In the preface to the 1882 Russian edition of the Manifesto, Marx and Engels say that the Russian commune could “pass directly to the higher form of Communist common ownership” only if the Russian Revolution (which he saw as inevitable, though it was not inevitable that it would "take[] place in time" (first draft of letter to Zasulich), and in the Letter to Otecestvenniye Zapisky he says that if Russia continues on its path, it will have lost this chance to skip the phase of capitalist development) is supported by wider revolution in the West. Otherwise, the Russian commune “must [] first pass through the same process of dissolution such as constitutes the historical evolution of the West.” There’s zero approval by Marx here for the notion of skipping the phase of private production/property in one country without a wider revolution. Marx told Zasulich at the time that education was one of the most crucial factors in the possibility of bypassing the agonizing stage of capitalism. No he didn’t. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago You misinterpret Marx's statement. I'm fully aware of Marx's views on the Russian commune movement, the problem is that you assume the Soviet model is what Marx was referring to, and that a more classically Marxist understanding of socialism was not what he meant. Marx was fairly explicit in what a socialist state would be, one where public ownership is principal and the working classes control the state. The Russian peasantry could have bypassed the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie and went straight to a dictatorship of the proletariat and peasantry, but they would not be able to avoid the problem of transitioning small ownership to large, industrialized ownership without the aid of markets. The fact of the matter is that private property existed de facto in the USSR. One of the mistakes of former socialism was merely trying to punish private ownership, rather than subordinate it to the public sector. Marx analyzed markets as being enormously useful in stitching together all of the small owners and building up productive forces, and public ownership as being superior at running large industry. Stalin ending the NEP early was a matter of survival, and was correct. China's conditions are different, and now occupies a more classically Marxist economy. It isn't even the same as the NEP, China was closer to the NEP under Mao, the socialist market economy of China is a more classically Marxist economy, with the ability to be so precisely because the imperialists cannot afford to decouple from them. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (3 children) I understand and can empathize with your views, I just have disagreements on certain aspects. These of course are colored by both of our upbringings, you within the Soviet Union and me entirely disconnected from socialism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (2 children) I very often fill gaps in my theoretical knowledge with personal experience—please forgive me for that! I would also like to note that the interpretation of Marx's theory in the USSR was somewhat simplified. For instance, the USSR acknowledged the existence of a primitive communal system but not the "Asiatic mode of production." I only heard about the latter recently. I would like to highlight this aspect; perhaps the key to what is currently happening in China lies there. Given that my knowledge of Marx's theory is superficial—and considering that Marx did not outline a precise model for constructing socialism (his work was largely a theoretical analysis of capitalism and its consequences)—it is worth noting that philosophy never sets concrete tasks for the individual. Regarding your view of Marx's philosophy, I can also point out an inaccuracy. You state that Marx envisioned the construction of socialism only within the context of developed capitalism, based on highly advanced productive forces. However, that is not entirely the case. In a letter to Vera Zasulich (dated March 8, 1881), https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%83%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%87,_%D0%92%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B0_%D0%98%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BD%D0%B0 Karl Marx stated that Russia could bypass the painful stage of capitalism. He emphasized that his theory was not a universal historical prescription and that the Russian peasant commune could, under certain conditions, become the nucleus of socialist development. Marx told Zasulich at the time that education was one of the most crucial factors in the possibility of bypassing the agonizing stage of capitalism. The bottom line is this: Lenin and Trotsky supported the NEP, whereas Stalin sided with "Zasulich." Stalin turned out to be entirely right, and he did not deviate from Marx's theory by even a millimeter. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] timdrake@lemmy.ml 1 point 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) In the preface to the 1882 Russian edition of the Manifesto, Marx and Engels say that the Russian commune could “pass directly to the higher form of Communist common ownership” only if the Russian Revolution (which he saw as inevitable, though it was not inevitable that it would "take[] place in time" (first draft of letter to Zasulich), and in the Letter to Otecestvenniye Zapisky he says that if Russia continues on its path, it will have lost this chance to skip the phase of capitalist development) is supported by wider revolution in the West. Otherwise, the Russian commune “must [] first pass through the same process of dissolution such as constitutes the historical evolution of the West.” There’s zero approval by Marx here for the notion of skipping the phase of private production/property in one country without a wider revolution. Marx told Zasulich at the time that education was one of the most crucial factors in the possibility of bypassing the agonizing stage of capitalism. No he didn’t. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago You misinterpret Marx's statement. I'm fully aware of Marx's views on the Russian commune movement, the problem is that you assume the Soviet model is what Marx was referring to, and that a more classically Marxist understanding of socialism was not what he meant. Marx was fairly explicit in what a socialist state would be, one where public ownership is principal and the working classes control the state. The Russian peasantry could have bypassed the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie and went straight to a dictatorship of the proletariat and peasantry, but they would not be able to avoid the problem of transitioning small ownership to large, industrialized ownership without the aid of markets. The fact of the matter is that private property existed de facto in the USSR. One of the mistakes of former socialism was merely trying to punish private ownership, rather than subordinate it to the public sector. Marx analyzed markets as being enormously useful in stitching together all of the small owners and building up productive forces, and public ownership as being superior at running large industry. Stalin ending the NEP early was a matter of survival, and was correct. China's conditions are different, and now occupies a more classically Marxist economy. It isn't even the same as the NEP, China was closer to the NEP under Mao, the socialist market economy of China is a more classically Marxist economy, with the ability to be so precisely because the imperialists cannot afford to decouple from them. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (2 children) I very often fill gaps in my theoretical knowledge with personal experience—please forgive me for that! I would also like to note that the interpretation of Marx's theory in the USSR was somewhat simplified. For instance, the USSR acknowledged the existence of a primitive communal system but not the "Asiatic mode of production." I only heard about the latter recently. I would like to highlight this aspect; perhaps the key to what is currently happening in China lies there. Given that my knowledge of Marx's theory is superficial—and considering that Marx did not outline a precise model for constructing socialism (his work was largely a theoretical analysis of capitalism and its consequences)—it is worth noting that philosophy never sets concrete tasks for the individual. Regarding your view of Marx's philosophy, I can also point out an inaccuracy. You state that Marx envisioned the construction of socialism only within the context of developed capitalism, based on highly advanced productive forces. However, that is not entirely the case. In a letter to Vera Zasulich (dated March 8, 1881), https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%97%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%83%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%87,_%D0%92%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B0_%D0%98%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BD%D0%B0 Karl Marx stated that Russia could bypass the painful stage of capitalism. He emphasized that his theory was not a universal historical prescription and that the Russian peasant commune could, under certain conditions, become the nucleus of socialist development. Marx told Zasulich at the time that education was one of the most crucial factors in the possibility of bypassing the agonizing stage of capitalism. The bottom line is this: Lenin and Trotsky supported the NEP, whereas Stalin sided with "Zasulich." Stalin turned out to be entirely right, and he did not deviate from Marx's theory by even a millimeter. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] timdrake@lemmy.ml 1 point 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) In the preface to the 1882 Russian edition of the Manifesto, Marx and Engels say that the Russian commune could “pass directly to the higher form of Communist common ownership” only if the Russian Revolution (which he saw as inevitable, though it was not inevitable that it would "take[] place in time" (first draft of letter to Zasulich), and in the Letter to Otecestvenniye Zapisky he says that if Russia continues on its path, it will have lost this chance to skip the phase of capitalist development) is supported by wider revolution in the West. Otherwise, the Russian commune “must [] first pass through the same process of dissolution such as constitutes the historical evolution of the West.” There’s zero approval by Marx here for the notion of skipping the phase of private production/property in one country without a wider revolution. Marx told Zasulich at the time that education was one of the most crucial factors in the possibility of bypassing the agonizing stage of capitalism. No he didn’t. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago You misinterpret Marx's statement. I'm fully aware of Marx's views on the Russian commune movement, the problem is that you assume the Soviet model is what Marx was referring to, and that a more classically Marxist understanding of socialism was not what he meant. Marx was fairly explicit in what a socialist state would be, one where public ownership is principal and the working classes control the state. The Russian peasantry could have bypassed the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie and went straight to a dictatorship of the proletariat and peasantry, but they would not be able to avoid the problem of transitioning small ownership to large, industrialized ownership without the aid of markets. The fact of the matter is that private property existed de facto in the USSR. One of the mistakes of former socialism was merely trying to punish private ownership, rather than subordinate it to the public sector. Marx analyzed markets as being enormously useful in stitching together all of the small owners and building up productive forces, and public ownership as being superior at running large industry. Stalin ending the NEP early was a matter of survival, and was correct. China's conditions are different, and now occupies a more classically Marxist economy. It isn't even the same as the NEP, China was closer to the NEP under Mao, the socialist market economy of China is a more classically Marxist economy, with the ability to be so precisely because the imperialists cannot afford to decouple from them. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] timdrake@lemmy.ml 1 point 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) In the preface to the 1882 Russian edition of the Manifesto, Marx and Engels say that the Russian commune could “pass directly to the higher form of Communist common ownership” only if the Russian Revolution (which he saw as inevitable, though it was not inevitable that it would "take[] place in time" (first draft of letter to Zasulich), and in the Letter to Otecestvenniye Zapisky he says that if Russia continues on its path, it will have lost this chance to skip the phase of capitalist development) is supported by wider revolution in the West. Otherwise, the Russian commune “must [] first pass through the same process of dissolution such as constitutes the historical evolution of the West.” There’s zero approval by Marx here for the notion of skipping the phase of private production/property in one country without a wider revolution. Marx told Zasulich at the time that education was one of the most crucial factors in the possibility of bypassing the agonizing stage of capitalism. No he didn’t. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago You misinterpret Marx's statement. I'm fully aware of Marx's views on the Russian commune movement, the problem is that you assume the Soviet model is what Marx was referring to, and that a more classically Marxist understanding of socialism was not what he meant. Marx was fairly explicit in what a socialist state would be, one where public ownership is principal and the working classes control the state. The Russian peasantry could have bypassed the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie and went straight to a dictatorship of the proletariat and peasantry, but they would not be able to avoid the problem of transitioning small ownership to large, industrialized ownership without the aid of markets. The fact of the matter is that private property existed de facto in the USSR. One of the mistakes of former socialism was merely trying to punish private ownership, rather than subordinate it to the public sector. Marx analyzed markets as being enormously useful in stitching together all of the small owners and building up productive forces, and public ownership as being superior at running large industry. Stalin ending the NEP early was a matter of survival, and was correct. China's conditions are different, and now occupies a more classically Marxist economy. It isn't even the same as the NEP, China was closer to the NEP under Mao, the socialist market economy of China is a more classically Marxist economy, with the ability to be so precisely because the imperialists cannot afford to decouple from them. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (30 children) Abolishing the NEP in the USSR and moving onto more planned economy ended up being beneficial. However, in the case of China, the NEP-inspired socialist market economy is the reason China is where they are today. New contradictions have arisen, which is of course a gamble, but with that came highly developed productive forces and tight interconnection with the global economy. This has allowed the PRC to reach where the USSR could not, and the developed productive forces are forming the basis of the newly emerging, more planned economy. As for Mao, China was horribly underdeveloped. Many of his mistakes were in dealing with such an environment, knowledge of agronomics was low and industrialization was non-existent. Under Mao, a solid socialist base was laid out, which managed to created the basis for the modern economy. As for the Sino-Soviet split, it's a tragedy, and was avoidable. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 30 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (12 children) I'm not denying that China has shortcomings. I believe you are magnifying them beyond their actual levels. As for Cheng Enfu's diagram, it essentially describes increasing planning and decreasing marketization over time. Marketization helps socialize production, and over time this is reigned in, creating a fully planned economy. As for Mao Zedong Thought, some aspects have applicability elsewhere. The Mass Line is a generally useful tactic, Protracted People's War can be useful in largely agrarian countries with high peasant populations and smaller urban centers, and so forth. It isn't universal, but Mao Zedong Thought works well for China and tactics from it have seen success in the global south, including in Vietnam. As for your insinuation that there are privledged people in China, yes, this is true. This is a side-effect of the socialist market economy. It's a tradeoff, an inefficiency that serves as a sort of price for the positive aspects of the socialist market economy. Excessive luxury is being cracked down on, and as China's socialist system develops, obscene wealth is being diminished while absolute wealth rises for the average worker. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 12 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (10 children) I never said Mao did not rely heavily on the USSR, so I will largely ignore those points as we do not really disagree. Regarding the Mass Line, it is essentially the tactic of taking policy from the people, and having the party reinterpret it and enact it accordingly. It is a way to avoid commandism and tailism, and has been applied by various ML or Maoist parties. Maoists tend to believe it is universal, while MLs tend to believe it is particular to certain conditions similar to China's experience. As for cracking down on excessive luxury, one example is the censorship of flaunting wealth on social media, and punishing those found guilty of corruption, taking bribes, etc. In China, the number of billionaires is decreasing, as the NEP-style economy is transitioning to a more advanced planned economy gradually. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (8 children) I'm aware that Mao believed that. That's why the narrative that Deng Xiaoping "backstabbed" socialism is false, Reform & Opening Up was a continuation of the economic basis laid out by Mao. As for cracking down on flaunting wealth, if your impression is already highly skeptical of China, it can seem that it's only to hide it from the public. A more comprehensive view of China, however, reveals it to not be mere rhetoric but the outcome of having both a socialist state and the contradictions rising from marketization. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (7 children) I’m aware that Mao believed that. Yes, exactly! That is the main argument—held by the Chinese themselves, by Western socialists (Trotskyists), and by the "new breed" of Western socialists (like you): that China fell out with the USSR because Khrushchev pursued a policy of "openness." But I keep telling you all that this isn't true, and it wasn't about Stalin! The reason was something else entirely. Relations between Khrushchev and Mao deteriorated completely after Mao asked the USSR to build a nuclear submarine fleet for China. Khrushchev agreed, but with the stipulation that the fleet would be a joint venture and based in Soviet Far Eastern ports. For some reason, Mao took great offense at this and refused. Now you can see just how brazen Mao was. These are all matters of public record; you can read about it yourself. I believe the reason for the rift was that, after Stalin's death, Mao considered himself the world's leading socialist—superior to the others and capable of handling everything on his own. He did not view Khrushchev as his equal. We saw how that turned out. As for cracking down on flaunting wealth, if your impression is already highly skeptical of China, it can seem that it’s only to hide it from the public. Yes, I know the statistics: wage growth in China is 4–6% annually. But I’m not convinced that wages are rising only for the poor—or that the 4–6% gains belonging to the middle and upper classes are being taken away and redistributed to China’s lower-income population. Show me the data on that trend, and then I’ll agree with you. I’d like to see statistics for these companies: JD.com: The revenue leader among China’s private enterprises, generating around 1.16 trillion yuan annually. Alibaba Group: JD.com’s main rival in the e-commerce market, showing steady growth driven by logistics and international expansion. ByteDance (owner of TikTok): The fastest-growing brand and largest private tech corporation. According to analyst reports, its brand value grew by 45% in a single year, reaching $153.5 billion. In cases where profits surged by 45% (an increase of 70 billion per year), exactly how much of that actually went to the poorer segments of the population? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (6 children) I think you're reading more into my position than I have stated myself. I understand that Mao was not innocent within the split, neither were the soviets. That's why I have stated that the split was a tragedy and should have been avoided had both sides statesmen been competent enough. As for statistics on wealth over time, you can even see western articles framing this crackdown in "scary language." The trend is gradual, but it isn't nonexistent either. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (5 children) I think you’re reading more into my position than I have stated myself. Yes, Comrade, you’re right. It’s a very painful subject for me. To me, this is just like Solzhenitsyn’s The Gulag Archipelago, a work that slandered and humiliated the entire Soviet ideology. Both have fostered a distorted view of the Soviet era. They have given rise to all sorts of false theories that are published and circulated worldwide on a massive scale. Yet the Soviet soul is all I have left in life now. I am being bombed every night, but I live in the past—I live on memories... As for statistics on wealth over time, you can even see western articles framing this crackdown in “scary language.” The trend is gradual, but it isn’t nonexistent either. Ma crossed a red line; Xi decided that the oligarchs were becoming a threat to him... though he seems to have realized this rather late. We can certainly see Ma’s attempt to meddle in state affairs. People used to tell me that China has no oligarchs because Chinese billionaires don't interfere in government business. Yet, I highly doubt that was the first time Ma had meddled in state affairs—after all, he is a long-standing Communist Party member. To be honest, Comrade, what is actually happening in China is a closely guarded secret. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (4 children) Again, I think you're reading the situation through pessimistic hermeneutics, seeing what isn't actually there as present based on pessimism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (3 children) That’s an interesting way to put it. Are you referring to Cervantes and the windmills? My subjective pessimism stems from the fact that I’ve lost faith in my own future—my personal future. It’s just that, due to certain circumstances, I reached a point where I lost hope for what lies ahead. I’ve come to terms with that now. As for objective pessimism, that has nothing to do with my personal outlook. If you like, you could call it dialectics in its most extreme form... ))))) But seriously, Comrade, when was the last time you saw someone looking toward humanity's future with confidence and optimism—without any illusions? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (2 children) I'm referring to someone whose own pessimism causes them to see negativity where there is no actual basis for it. Your mind fills in the blanks, so to speak. Nobody is immune to this, I am an optimist, a revolutionary optimist. I have to hold onto hope to move forward, and do my best to temper that with sober and grounded analysis. Optimism is a revolutionary feeling, pessimism leads to nihilism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (1 child) I’m referring to someone whose own pessimism causes them to see negativity where there is no actual basis for it. Yes, you described that guy accurately. And that’s hardly surprising, because in this world, he has no choice but to be a sociopath. As for the idea that I might be talking nonsense—that’s unlikely; I have far too much practical life experience to spout complete rubbish. I’ve clawed my way to the top three times in my life, only to hit rock bottom again. Right now, I’m at the bottom once more. Would you be an optimist if you were in my shoes, Comrade? ... ))) And please, don’t tell me that I’m the one to blame for it all, rather than the way life is set up! I am an optimist, a revolutionary optimist. You just got lucky, Comrade! I'm happy for you. I was just like that once, too. I have to hold onto hope to move forward, and do my best to temper that with sober and grounded analysis. Yes, it's Dostoevsky: The most terrible thing is when a person has nowhere to go. This quote reflects one of Fyodor Dostoevsky's most haunting themes: the crushing despair of total alienation and the human necessity for purpose. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago I don't mean it as a moral condemnation, or an expectation to be "better," but as an explanation for why we are in disagreement on certain aspects. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (6 children) It's certainly true that mistakes in work and management exaggerated the impacts of natural disaster. This did result in making a naturally occurring famine worse, similar to what happened in the 1930s soviet famine. However, between 1949 and 1978, agriculture was dramatically overhauled and succeeded in achieving food security, ending famine in a region where famine was historically common (again, similar to the 1930s soviet famine). Was the Great Leap Forward a clear success? No, not necessarily. Over-enthusiasm and mistakes in work magnified the impact of weather disaster. Millions did die. However, these mistakes were rectified, and agriculture was successfully advanced. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (4 children) Similar to the soviet experience, Chinese workers are holding their heads high in new stages in socialist construction, with simiarly rapid levels of development. Anecdotes aside, this experience is common among both China and the USSR. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (1 child) You could be correct, but we would never know. If only people in the USSR back then had known what they stood to lose... permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago Agreed. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (2 replies) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (10 replies)
[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (30 children) Abolishing the NEP in the USSR and moving onto more planned economy ended up being beneficial. However, in the case of China, the NEP-inspired socialist market economy is the reason China is where they are today. New contradictions have arisen, which is of course a gamble, but with that came highly developed productive forces and tight interconnection with the global economy. This has allowed the PRC to reach where the USSR could not, and the developed productive forces are forming the basis of the newly emerging, more planned economy. As for Mao, China was horribly underdeveloped. Many of his mistakes were in dealing with such an environment, knowledge of agronomics was low and industrialization was non-existent. Under Mao, a solid socialist base was laid out, which managed to created the basis for the modern economy. As for the Sino-Soviet split, it's a tragedy, and was avoidable. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 30 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (12 children) I'm not denying that China has shortcomings. I believe you are magnifying them beyond their actual levels. As for Cheng Enfu's diagram, it essentially describes increasing planning and decreasing marketization over time. Marketization helps socialize production, and over time this is reigned in, creating a fully planned economy. As for Mao Zedong Thought, some aspects have applicability elsewhere. The Mass Line is a generally useful tactic, Protracted People's War can be useful in largely agrarian countries with high peasant populations and smaller urban centers, and so forth. It isn't universal, but Mao Zedong Thought works well for China and tactics from it have seen success in the global south, including in Vietnam. As for your insinuation that there are privledged people in China, yes, this is true. This is a side-effect of the socialist market economy. It's a tradeoff, an inefficiency that serves as a sort of price for the positive aspects of the socialist market economy. Excessive luxury is being cracked down on, and as China's socialist system develops, obscene wealth is being diminished while absolute wealth rises for the average worker. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 12 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (10 children) I never said Mao did not rely heavily on the USSR, so I will largely ignore those points as we do not really disagree. Regarding the Mass Line, it is essentially the tactic of taking policy from the people, and having the party reinterpret it and enact it accordingly. It is a way to avoid commandism and tailism, and has been applied by various ML or Maoist parties. Maoists tend to believe it is universal, while MLs tend to believe it is particular to certain conditions similar to China's experience. As for cracking down on excessive luxury, one example is the censorship of flaunting wealth on social media, and punishing those found guilty of corruption, taking bribes, etc. In China, the number of billionaires is decreasing, as the NEP-style economy is transitioning to a more advanced planned economy gradually. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (8 children) I'm aware that Mao believed that. That's why the narrative that Deng Xiaoping "backstabbed" socialism is false, Reform & Opening Up was a continuation of the economic basis laid out by Mao. As for cracking down on flaunting wealth, if your impression is already highly skeptical of China, it can seem that it's only to hide it from the public. A more comprehensive view of China, however, reveals it to not be mere rhetoric but the outcome of having both a socialist state and the contradictions rising from marketization. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (7 children) I’m aware that Mao believed that. Yes, exactly! That is the main argument—held by the Chinese themselves, by Western socialists (Trotskyists), and by the "new breed" of Western socialists (like you): that China fell out with the USSR because Khrushchev pursued a policy of "openness." But I keep telling you all that this isn't true, and it wasn't about Stalin! The reason was something else entirely. Relations between Khrushchev and Mao deteriorated completely after Mao asked the USSR to build a nuclear submarine fleet for China. Khrushchev agreed, but with the stipulation that the fleet would be a joint venture and based in Soviet Far Eastern ports. For some reason, Mao took great offense at this and refused. Now you can see just how brazen Mao was. These are all matters of public record; you can read about it yourself. I believe the reason for the rift was that, after Stalin's death, Mao considered himself the world's leading socialist—superior to the others and capable of handling everything on his own. He did not view Khrushchev as his equal. We saw how that turned out. As for cracking down on flaunting wealth, if your impression is already highly skeptical of China, it can seem that it’s only to hide it from the public. Yes, I know the statistics: wage growth in China is 4–6% annually. But I’m not convinced that wages are rising only for the poor—or that the 4–6% gains belonging to the middle and upper classes are being taken away and redistributed to China’s lower-income population. Show me the data on that trend, and then I’ll agree with you. I’d like to see statistics for these companies: JD.com: The revenue leader among China’s private enterprises, generating around 1.16 trillion yuan annually. Alibaba Group: JD.com’s main rival in the e-commerce market, showing steady growth driven by logistics and international expansion. ByteDance (owner of TikTok): The fastest-growing brand and largest private tech corporation. According to analyst reports, its brand value grew by 45% in a single year, reaching $153.5 billion. In cases where profits surged by 45% (an increase of 70 billion per year), exactly how much of that actually went to the poorer segments of the population? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (6 children) I think you're reading more into my position than I have stated myself. I understand that Mao was not innocent within the split, neither were the soviets. That's why I have stated that the split was a tragedy and should have been avoided had both sides statesmen been competent enough. As for statistics on wealth over time, you can even see western articles framing this crackdown in "scary language." The trend is gradual, but it isn't nonexistent either. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (5 children) I think you’re reading more into my position than I have stated myself. Yes, Comrade, you’re right. It’s a very painful subject for me. To me, this is just like Solzhenitsyn’s The Gulag Archipelago, a work that slandered and humiliated the entire Soviet ideology. Both have fostered a distorted view of the Soviet era. They have given rise to all sorts of false theories that are published and circulated worldwide on a massive scale. Yet the Soviet soul is all I have left in life now. I am being bombed every night, but I live in the past—I live on memories... As for statistics on wealth over time, you can even see western articles framing this crackdown in “scary language.” The trend is gradual, but it isn’t nonexistent either. Ma crossed a red line; Xi decided that the oligarchs were becoming a threat to him... though he seems to have realized this rather late. We can certainly see Ma’s attempt to meddle in state affairs. People used to tell me that China has no oligarchs because Chinese billionaires don't interfere in government business. Yet, I highly doubt that was the first time Ma had meddled in state affairs—after all, he is a long-standing Communist Party member. To be honest, Comrade, what is actually happening in China is a closely guarded secret. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (4 children) Again, I think you're reading the situation through pessimistic hermeneutics, seeing what isn't actually there as present based on pessimism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (3 children) That’s an interesting way to put it. Are you referring to Cervantes and the windmills? My subjective pessimism stems from the fact that I’ve lost faith in my own future—my personal future. It’s just that, due to certain circumstances, I reached a point where I lost hope for what lies ahead. I’ve come to terms with that now. As for objective pessimism, that has nothing to do with my personal outlook. If you like, you could call it dialectics in its most extreme form... ))))) But seriously, Comrade, when was the last time you saw someone looking toward humanity's future with confidence and optimism—without any illusions? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (2 children) I'm referring to someone whose own pessimism causes them to see negativity where there is no actual basis for it. Your mind fills in the blanks, so to speak. Nobody is immune to this, I am an optimist, a revolutionary optimist. I have to hold onto hope to move forward, and do my best to temper that with sober and grounded analysis. Optimism is a revolutionary feeling, pessimism leads to nihilism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (1 child) I’m referring to someone whose own pessimism causes them to see negativity where there is no actual basis for it. Yes, you described that guy accurately. And that’s hardly surprising, because in this world, he has no choice but to be a sociopath. As for the idea that I might be talking nonsense—that’s unlikely; I have far too much practical life experience to spout complete rubbish. I’ve clawed my way to the top three times in my life, only to hit rock bottom again. Right now, I’m at the bottom once more. Would you be an optimist if you were in my shoes, Comrade? ... ))) And please, don’t tell me that I’m the one to blame for it all, rather than the way life is set up! I am an optimist, a revolutionary optimist. You just got lucky, Comrade! I'm happy for you. I was just like that once, too. I have to hold onto hope to move forward, and do my best to temper that with sober and grounded analysis. Yes, it's Dostoevsky: The most terrible thing is when a person has nowhere to go. This quote reflects one of Fyodor Dostoevsky's most haunting themes: the crushing despair of total alienation and the human necessity for purpose. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago I don't mean it as a moral condemnation, or an expectation to be "better," but as an explanation for why we are in disagreement on certain aspects. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (6 children) It's certainly true that mistakes in work and management exaggerated the impacts of natural disaster. This did result in making a naturally occurring famine worse, similar to what happened in the 1930s soviet famine. However, between 1949 and 1978, agriculture was dramatically overhauled and succeeded in achieving food security, ending famine in a region where famine was historically common (again, similar to the 1930s soviet famine). Was the Great Leap Forward a clear success? No, not necessarily. Over-enthusiasm and mistakes in work magnified the impact of weather disaster. Millions did die. However, these mistakes were rectified, and agriculture was successfully advanced. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (4 children) Similar to the soviet experience, Chinese workers are holding their heads high in new stages in socialist construction, with simiarly rapid levels of development. Anecdotes aside, this experience is common among both China and the USSR. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (1 child) You could be correct, but we would never know. If only people in the USSR back then had known what they stood to lose... permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago Agreed. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (2 replies) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (10 replies)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (12 children) I'm not denying that China has shortcomings. I believe you are magnifying them beyond their actual levels. As for Cheng Enfu's diagram, it essentially describes increasing planning and decreasing marketization over time. Marketization helps socialize production, and over time this is reigned in, creating a fully planned economy. As for Mao Zedong Thought, some aspects have applicability elsewhere. The Mass Line is a generally useful tactic, Protracted People's War can be useful in largely agrarian countries with high peasant populations and smaller urban centers, and so forth. It isn't universal, but Mao Zedong Thought works well for China and tactics from it have seen success in the global south, including in Vietnam. As for your insinuation that there are privledged people in China, yes, this is true. This is a side-effect of the socialist market economy. It's a tradeoff, an inefficiency that serves as a sort of price for the positive aspects of the socialist market economy. Excessive luxury is being cracked down on, and as China's socialist system develops, obscene wealth is being diminished while absolute wealth rises for the average worker. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 12 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (10 children) I never said Mao did not rely heavily on the USSR, so I will largely ignore those points as we do not really disagree. Regarding the Mass Line, it is essentially the tactic of taking policy from the people, and having the party reinterpret it and enact it accordingly. It is a way to avoid commandism and tailism, and has been applied by various ML or Maoist parties. Maoists tend to believe it is universal, while MLs tend to believe it is particular to certain conditions similar to China's experience. As for cracking down on excessive luxury, one example is the censorship of flaunting wealth on social media, and punishing those found guilty of corruption, taking bribes, etc. In China, the number of billionaires is decreasing, as the NEP-style economy is transitioning to a more advanced planned economy gradually. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (8 children) I'm aware that Mao believed that. That's why the narrative that Deng Xiaoping "backstabbed" socialism is false, Reform & Opening Up was a continuation of the economic basis laid out by Mao. As for cracking down on flaunting wealth, if your impression is already highly skeptical of China, it can seem that it's only to hide it from the public. A more comprehensive view of China, however, reveals it to not be mere rhetoric but the outcome of having both a socialist state and the contradictions rising from marketization. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (7 children) I’m aware that Mao believed that. Yes, exactly! That is the main argument—held by the Chinese themselves, by Western socialists (Trotskyists), and by the "new breed" of Western socialists (like you): that China fell out with the USSR because Khrushchev pursued a policy of "openness." But I keep telling you all that this isn't true, and it wasn't about Stalin! The reason was something else entirely. Relations between Khrushchev and Mao deteriorated completely after Mao asked the USSR to build a nuclear submarine fleet for China. Khrushchev agreed, but with the stipulation that the fleet would be a joint venture and based in Soviet Far Eastern ports. For some reason, Mao took great offense at this and refused. Now you can see just how brazen Mao was. These are all matters of public record; you can read about it yourself. I believe the reason for the rift was that, after Stalin's death, Mao considered himself the world's leading socialist—superior to the others and capable of handling everything on his own. He did not view Khrushchev as his equal. We saw how that turned out. As for cracking down on flaunting wealth, if your impression is already highly skeptical of China, it can seem that it’s only to hide it from the public. Yes, I know the statistics: wage growth in China is 4–6% annually. But I’m not convinced that wages are rising only for the poor—or that the 4–6% gains belonging to the middle and upper classes are being taken away and redistributed to China’s lower-income population. Show me the data on that trend, and then I’ll agree with you. I’d like to see statistics for these companies: JD.com: The revenue leader among China’s private enterprises, generating around 1.16 trillion yuan annually. Alibaba Group: JD.com’s main rival in the e-commerce market, showing steady growth driven by logistics and international expansion. ByteDance (owner of TikTok): The fastest-growing brand and largest private tech corporation. According to analyst reports, its brand value grew by 45% in a single year, reaching $153.5 billion. In cases where profits surged by 45% (an increase of 70 billion per year), exactly how much of that actually went to the poorer segments of the population? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (6 children) I think you're reading more into my position than I have stated myself. I understand that Mao was not innocent within the split, neither were the soviets. That's why I have stated that the split was a tragedy and should have been avoided had both sides statesmen been competent enough. As for statistics on wealth over time, you can even see western articles framing this crackdown in "scary language." The trend is gradual, but it isn't nonexistent either. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (5 children) I think you’re reading more into my position than I have stated myself. Yes, Comrade, you’re right. It’s a very painful subject for me. To me, this is just like Solzhenitsyn’s The Gulag Archipelago, a work that slandered and humiliated the entire Soviet ideology. Both have fostered a distorted view of the Soviet era. They have given rise to all sorts of false theories that are published and circulated worldwide on a massive scale. Yet the Soviet soul is all I have left in life now. I am being bombed every night, but I live in the past—I live on memories... As for statistics on wealth over time, you can even see western articles framing this crackdown in “scary language.” The trend is gradual, but it isn’t nonexistent either. Ma crossed a red line; Xi decided that the oligarchs were becoming a threat to him... though he seems to have realized this rather late. We can certainly see Ma’s attempt to meddle in state affairs. People used to tell me that China has no oligarchs because Chinese billionaires don't interfere in government business. Yet, I highly doubt that was the first time Ma had meddled in state affairs—after all, he is a long-standing Communist Party member. To be honest, Comrade, what is actually happening in China is a closely guarded secret. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (4 children) Again, I think you're reading the situation through pessimistic hermeneutics, seeing what isn't actually there as present based on pessimism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (3 children) That’s an interesting way to put it. Are you referring to Cervantes and the windmills? My subjective pessimism stems from the fact that I’ve lost faith in my own future—my personal future. It’s just that, due to certain circumstances, I reached a point where I lost hope for what lies ahead. I’ve come to terms with that now. As for objective pessimism, that has nothing to do with my personal outlook. If you like, you could call it dialectics in its most extreme form... ))))) But seriously, Comrade, when was the last time you saw someone looking toward humanity's future with confidence and optimism—without any illusions? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (2 children) I'm referring to someone whose own pessimism causes them to see negativity where there is no actual basis for it. Your mind fills in the blanks, so to speak. Nobody is immune to this, I am an optimist, a revolutionary optimist. I have to hold onto hope to move forward, and do my best to temper that with sober and grounded analysis. Optimism is a revolutionary feeling, pessimism leads to nihilism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (1 child) I’m referring to someone whose own pessimism causes them to see negativity where there is no actual basis for it. Yes, you described that guy accurately. And that’s hardly surprising, because in this world, he has no choice but to be a sociopath. As for the idea that I might be talking nonsense—that’s unlikely; I have far too much practical life experience to spout complete rubbish. I’ve clawed my way to the top three times in my life, only to hit rock bottom again. Right now, I’m at the bottom once more. Would you be an optimist if you were in my shoes, Comrade? ... ))) And please, don’t tell me that I’m the one to blame for it all, rather than the way life is set up! I am an optimist, a revolutionary optimist. You just got lucky, Comrade! I'm happy for you. I was just like that once, too. I have to hold onto hope to move forward, and do my best to temper that with sober and grounded analysis. Yes, it's Dostoevsky: The most terrible thing is when a person has nowhere to go. This quote reflects one of Fyodor Dostoevsky's most haunting themes: the crushing despair of total alienation and the human necessity for purpose. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago I don't mean it as a moral condemnation, or an expectation to be "better," but as an explanation for why we are in disagreement on certain aspects. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply)
[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (12 children) I'm not denying that China has shortcomings. I believe you are magnifying them beyond their actual levels. As for Cheng Enfu's diagram, it essentially describes increasing planning and decreasing marketization over time. Marketization helps socialize production, and over time this is reigned in, creating a fully planned economy. As for Mao Zedong Thought, some aspects have applicability elsewhere. The Mass Line is a generally useful tactic, Protracted People's War can be useful in largely agrarian countries with high peasant populations and smaller urban centers, and so forth. It isn't universal, but Mao Zedong Thought works well for China and tactics from it have seen success in the global south, including in Vietnam. As for your insinuation that there are privledged people in China, yes, this is true. This is a side-effect of the socialist market economy. It's a tradeoff, an inefficiency that serves as a sort of price for the positive aspects of the socialist market economy. Excessive luxury is being cracked down on, and as China's socialist system develops, obscene wealth is being diminished while absolute wealth rises for the average worker. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 12 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (10 children) I never said Mao did not rely heavily on the USSR, so I will largely ignore those points as we do not really disagree. Regarding the Mass Line, it is essentially the tactic of taking policy from the people, and having the party reinterpret it and enact it accordingly. It is a way to avoid commandism and tailism, and has been applied by various ML or Maoist parties. Maoists tend to believe it is universal, while MLs tend to believe it is particular to certain conditions similar to China's experience. As for cracking down on excessive luxury, one example is the censorship of flaunting wealth on social media, and punishing those found guilty of corruption, taking bribes, etc. In China, the number of billionaires is decreasing, as the NEP-style economy is transitioning to a more advanced planned economy gradually. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (8 children) I'm aware that Mao believed that. That's why the narrative that Deng Xiaoping "backstabbed" socialism is false, Reform & Opening Up was a continuation of the economic basis laid out by Mao. As for cracking down on flaunting wealth, if your impression is already highly skeptical of China, it can seem that it's only to hide it from the public. A more comprehensive view of China, however, reveals it to not be mere rhetoric but the outcome of having both a socialist state and the contradictions rising from marketization. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (7 children) I’m aware that Mao believed that. Yes, exactly! That is the main argument—held by the Chinese themselves, by Western socialists (Trotskyists), and by the "new breed" of Western socialists (like you): that China fell out with the USSR because Khrushchev pursued a policy of "openness." But I keep telling you all that this isn't true, and it wasn't about Stalin! The reason was something else entirely. Relations between Khrushchev and Mao deteriorated completely after Mao asked the USSR to build a nuclear submarine fleet for China. Khrushchev agreed, but with the stipulation that the fleet would be a joint venture and based in Soviet Far Eastern ports. For some reason, Mao took great offense at this and refused. Now you can see just how brazen Mao was. These are all matters of public record; you can read about it yourself. I believe the reason for the rift was that, after Stalin's death, Mao considered himself the world's leading socialist—superior to the others and capable of handling everything on his own. He did not view Khrushchev as his equal. We saw how that turned out. As for cracking down on flaunting wealth, if your impression is already highly skeptical of China, it can seem that it’s only to hide it from the public. Yes, I know the statistics: wage growth in China is 4–6% annually. But I’m not convinced that wages are rising only for the poor—or that the 4–6% gains belonging to the middle and upper classes are being taken away and redistributed to China’s lower-income population. Show me the data on that trend, and then I’ll agree with you. I’d like to see statistics for these companies: JD.com: The revenue leader among China’s private enterprises, generating around 1.16 trillion yuan annually. Alibaba Group: JD.com’s main rival in the e-commerce market, showing steady growth driven by logistics and international expansion. ByteDance (owner of TikTok): The fastest-growing brand and largest private tech corporation. According to analyst reports, its brand value grew by 45% in a single year, reaching $153.5 billion. In cases where profits surged by 45% (an increase of 70 billion per year), exactly how much of that actually went to the poorer segments of the population? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (6 children) I think you're reading more into my position than I have stated myself. I understand that Mao was not innocent within the split, neither were the soviets. That's why I have stated that the split was a tragedy and should have been avoided had both sides statesmen been competent enough. As for statistics on wealth over time, you can even see western articles framing this crackdown in "scary language." The trend is gradual, but it isn't nonexistent either. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (5 children) I think you’re reading more into my position than I have stated myself. Yes, Comrade, you’re right. It’s a very painful subject for me. To me, this is just like Solzhenitsyn’s The Gulag Archipelago, a work that slandered and humiliated the entire Soviet ideology. Both have fostered a distorted view of the Soviet era. They have given rise to all sorts of false theories that are published and circulated worldwide on a massive scale. Yet the Soviet soul is all I have left in life now. I am being bombed every night, but I live in the past—I live on memories... As for statistics on wealth over time, you can even see western articles framing this crackdown in “scary language.” The trend is gradual, but it isn’t nonexistent either. Ma crossed a red line; Xi decided that the oligarchs were becoming a threat to him... though he seems to have realized this rather late. We can certainly see Ma’s attempt to meddle in state affairs. People used to tell me that China has no oligarchs because Chinese billionaires don't interfere in government business. Yet, I highly doubt that was the first time Ma had meddled in state affairs—after all, he is a long-standing Communist Party member. To be honest, Comrade, what is actually happening in China is a closely guarded secret. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (4 children) Again, I think you're reading the situation through pessimistic hermeneutics, seeing what isn't actually there as present based on pessimism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (3 children) That’s an interesting way to put it. Are you referring to Cervantes and the windmills? My subjective pessimism stems from the fact that I’ve lost faith in my own future—my personal future. It’s just that, due to certain circumstances, I reached a point where I lost hope for what lies ahead. I’ve come to terms with that now. As for objective pessimism, that has nothing to do with my personal outlook. If you like, you could call it dialectics in its most extreme form... ))))) But seriously, Comrade, when was the last time you saw someone looking toward humanity's future with confidence and optimism—without any illusions? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (2 children) I'm referring to someone whose own pessimism causes them to see negativity where there is no actual basis for it. Your mind fills in the blanks, so to speak. Nobody is immune to this, I am an optimist, a revolutionary optimist. I have to hold onto hope to move forward, and do my best to temper that with sober and grounded analysis. Optimism is a revolutionary feeling, pessimism leads to nihilism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (1 child) I’m referring to someone whose own pessimism causes them to see negativity where there is no actual basis for it. Yes, you described that guy accurately. And that’s hardly surprising, because in this world, he has no choice but to be a sociopath. As for the idea that I might be talking nonsense—that’s unlikely; I have far too much practical life experience to spout complete rubbish. I’ve clawed my way to the top three times in my life, only to hit rock bottom again. Right now, I’m at the bottom once more. Would you be an optimist if you were in my shoes, Comrade? ... ))) And please, don’t tell me that I’m the one to blame for it all, rather than the way life is set up! I am an optimist, a revolutionary optimist. You just got lucky, Comrade! I'm happy for you. I was just like that once, too. I have to hold onto hope to move forward, and do my best to temper that with sober and grounded analysis. Yes, it's Dostoevsky: The most terrible thing is when a person has nowhere to go. This quote reflects one of Fyodor Dostoevsky's most haunting themes: the crushing despair of total alienation and the human necessity for purpose. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago I don't mean it as a moral condemnation, or an expectation to be "better," but as an explanation for why we are in disagreement on certain aspects. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (10 children) I never said Mao did not rely heavily on the USSR, so I will largely ignore those points as we do not really disagree. Regarding the Mass Line, it is essentially the tactic of taking policy from the people, and having the party reinterpret it and enact it accordingly. It is a way to avoid commandism and tailism, and has been applied by various ML or Maoist parties. Maoists tend to believe it is universal, while MLs tend to believe it is particular to certain conditions similar to China's experience. As for cracking down on excessive luxury, one example is the censorship of flaunting wealth on social media, and punishing those found guilty of corruption, taking bribes, etc. In China, the number of billionaires is decreasing, as the NEP-style economy is transitioning to a more advanced planned economy gradually. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (8 children) I'm aware that Mao believed that. That's why the narrative that Deng Xiaoping "backstabbed" socialism is false, Reform & Opening Up was a continuation of the economic basis laid out by Mao. As for cracking down on flaunting wealth, if your impression is already highly skeptical of China, it can seem that it's only to hide it from the public. A more comprehensive view of China, however, reveals it to not be mere rhetoric but the outcome of having both a socialist state and the contradictions rising from marketization. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (7 children) I’m aware that Mao believed that. Yes, exactly! That is the main argument—held by the Chinese themselves, by Western socialists (Trotskyists), and by the "new breed" of Western socialists (like you): that China fell out with the USSR because Khrushchev pursued a policy of "openness." But I keep telling you all that this isn't true, and it wasn't about Stalin! The reason was something else entirely. Relations between Khrushchev and Mao deteriorated completely after Mao asked the USSR to build a nuclear submarine fleet for China. Khrushchev agreed, but with the stipulation that the fleet would be a joint venture and based in Soviet Far Eastern ports. For some reason, Mao took great offense at this and refused. Now you can see just how brazen Mao was. These are all matters of public record; you can read about it yourself. I believe the reason for the rift was that, after Stalin's death, Mao considered himself the world's leading socialist—superior to the others and capable of handling everything on his own. He did not view Khrushchev as his equal. We saw how that turned out. As for cracking down on flaunting wealth, if your impression is already highly skeptical of China, it can seem that it’s only to hide it from the public. Yes, I know the statistics: wage growth in China is 4–6% annually. But I’m not convinced that wages are rising only for the poor—or that the 4–6% gains belonging to the middle and upper classes are being taken away and redistributed to China’s lower-income population. Show me the data on that trend, and then I’ll agree with you. I’d like to see statistics for these companies: JD.com: The revenue leader among China’s private enterprises, generating around 1.16 trillion yuan annually. Alibaba Group: JD.com’s main rival in the e-commerce market, showing steady growth driven by logistics and international expansion. ByteDance (owner of TikTok): The fastest-growing brand and largest private tech corporation. According to analyst reports, its brand value grew by 45% in a single year, reaching $153.5 billion. In cases where profits surged by 45% (an increase of 70 billion per year), exactly how much of that actually went to the poorer segments of the population? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (6 children) I think you're reading more into my position than I have stated myself. I understand that Mao was not innocent within the split, neither were the soviets. That's why I have stated that the split was a tragedy and should have been avoided had both sides statesmen been competent enough. As for statistics on wealth over time, you can even see western articles framing this crackdown in "scary language." The trend is gradual, but it isn't nonexistent either. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (5 children) I think you’re reading more into my position than I have stated myself. Yes, Comrade, you’re right. It’s a very painful subject for me. To me, this is just like Solzhenitsyn’s The Gulag Archipelago, a work that slandered and humiliated the entire Soviet ideology. Both have fostered a distorted view of the Soviet era. They have given rise to all sorts of false theories that are published and circulated worldwide on a massive scale. Yet the Soviet soul is all I have left in life now. I am being bombed every night, but I live in the past—I live on memories... As for statistics on wealth over time, you can even see western articles framing this crackdown in “scary language.” The trend is gradual, but it isn’t nonexistent either. Ma crossed a red line; Xi decided that the oligarchs were becoming a threat to him... though he seems to have realized this rather late. We can certainly see Ma’s attempt to meddle in state affairs. People used to tell me that China has no oligarchs because Chinese billionaires don't interfere in government business. Yet, I highly doubt that was the first time Ma had meddled in state affairs—after all, he is a long-standing Communist Party member. To be honest, Comrade, what is actually happening in China is a closely guarded secret. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (4 children) Again, I think you're reading the situation through pessimistic hermeneutics, seeing what isn't actually there as present based on pessimism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (3 children) That’s an interesting way to put it. Are you referring to Cervantes and the windmills? My subjective pessimism stems from the fact that I’ve lost faith in my own future—my personal future. It’s just that, due to certain circumstances, I reached a point where I lost hope for what lies ahead. I’ve come to terms with that now. As for objective pessimism, that has nothing to do with my personal outlook. If you like, you could call it dialectics in its most extreme form... ))))) But seriously, Comrade, when was the last time you saw someone looking toward humanity's future with confidence and optimism—without any illusions? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (2 children) I'm referring to someone whose own pessimism causes them to see negativity where there is no actual basis for it. Your mind fills in the blanks, so to speak. Nobody is immune to this, I am an optimist, a revolutionary optimist. I have to hold onto hope to move forward, and do my best to temper that with sober and grounded analysis. Optimism is a revolutionary feeling, pessimism leads to nihilism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (1 child) I’m referring to someone whose own pessimism causes them to see negativity where there is no actual basis for it. Yes, you described that guy accurately. And that’s hardly surprising, because in this world, he has no choice but to be a sociopath. As for the idea that I might be talking nonsense—that’s unlikely; I have far too much practical life experience to spout complete rubbish. I’ve clawed my way to the top three times in my life, only to hit rock bottom again. Right now, I’m at the bottom once more. Would you be an optimist if you were in my shoes, Comrade? ... ))) And please, don’t tell me that I’m the one to blame for it all, rather than the way life is set up! I am an optimist, a revolutionary optimist. You just got lucky, Comrade! I'm happy for you. I was just like that once, too. I have to hold onto hope to move forward, and do my best to temper that with sober and grounded analysis. Yes, it's Dostoevsky: The most terrible thing is when a person has nowhere to go. This quote reflects one of Fyodor Dostoevsky's most haunting themes: the crushing despair of total alienation and the human necessity for purpose. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago I don't mean it as a moral condemnation, or an expectation to be "better," but as an explanation for why we are in disagreement on certain aspects. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply)
[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (10 children) I never said Mao did not rely heavily on the USSR, so I will largely ignore those points as we do not really disagree. Regarding the Mass Line, it is essentially the tactic of taking policy from the people, and having the party reinterpret it and enact it accordingly. It is a way to avoid commandism and tailism, and has been applied by various ML or Maoist parties. Maoists tend to believe it is universal, while MLs tend to believe it is particular to certain conditions similar to China's experience. As for cracking down on excessive luxury, one example is the censorship of flaunting wealth on social media, and punishing those found guilty of corruption, taking bribes, etc. In China, the number of billionaires is decreasing, as the NEP-style economy is transitioning to a more advanced planned economy gradually. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (8 children) I'm aware that Mao believed that. That's why the narrative that Deng Xiaoping "backstabbed" socialism is false, Reform & Opening Up was a continuation of the economic basis laid out by Mao. As for cracking down on flaunting wealth, if your impression is already highly skeptical of China, it can seem that it's only to hide it from the public. A more comprehensive view of China, however, reveals it to not be mere rhetoric but the outcome of having both a socialist state and the contradictions rising from marketization. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (7 children) I’m aware that Mao believed that. Yes, exactly! That is the main argument—held by the Chinese themselves, by Western socialists (Trotskyists), and by the "new breed" of Western socialists (like you): that China fell out with the USSR because Khrushchev pursued a policy of "openness." But I keep telling you all that this isn't true, and it wasn't about Stalin! The reason was something else entirely. Relations between Khrushchev and Mao deteriorated completely after Mao asked the USSR to build a nuclear submarine fleet for China. Khrushchev agreed, but with the stipulation that the fleet would be a joint venture and based in Soviet Far Eastern ports. For some reason, Mao took great offense at this and refused. Now you can see just how brazen Mao was. These are all matters of public record; you can read about it yourself. I believe the reason for the rift was that, after Stalin's death, Mao considered himself the world's leading socialist—superior to the others and capable of handling everything on his own. He did not view Khrushchev as his equal. We saw how that turned out. As for cracking down on flaunting wealth, if your impression is already highly skeptical of China, it can seem that it’s only to hide it from the public. Yes, I know the statistics: wage growth in China is 4–6% annually. But I’m not convinced that wages are rising only for the poor—or that the 4–6% gains belonging to the middle and upper classes are being taken away and redistributed to China’s lower-income population. Show me the data on that trend, and then I’ll agree with you. I’d like to see statistics for these companies: JD.com: The revenue leader among China’s private enterprises, generating around 1.16 trillion yuan annually. Alibaba Group: JD.com’s main rival in the e-commerce market, showing steady growth driven by logistics and international expansion. ByteDance (owner of TikTok): The fastest-growing brand and largest private tech corporation. According to analyst reports, its brand value grew by 45% in a single year, reaching $153.5 billion. In cases where profits surged by 45% (an increase of 70 billion per year), exactly how much of that actually went to the poorer segments of the population? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (6 children) I think you're reading more into my position than I have stated myself. I understand that Mao was not innocent within the split, neither were the soviets. That's why I have stated that the split was a tragedy and should have been avoided had both sides statesmen been competent enough. As for statistics on wealth over time, you can even see western articles framing this crackdown in "scary language." The trend is gradual, but it isn't nonexistent either. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (5 children) I think you’re reading more into my position than I have stated myself. Yes, Comrade, you’re right. It’s a very painful subject for me. To me, this is just like Solzhenitsyn’s The Gulag Archipelago, a work that slandered and humiliated the entire Soviet ideology. Both have fostered a distorted view of the Soviet era. They have given rise to all sorts of false theories that are published and circulated worldwide on a massive scale. Yet the Soviet soul is all I have left in life now. I am being bombed every night, but I live in the past—I live on memories... As for statistics on wealth over time, you can even see western articles framing this crackdown in “scary language.” The trend is gradual, but it isn’t nonexistent either. Ma crossed a red line; Xi decided that the oligarchs were becoming a threat to him... though he seems to have realized this rather late. We can certainly see Ma’s attempt to meddle in state affairs. People used to tell me that China has no oligarchs because Chinese billionaires don't interfere in government business. Yet, I highly doubt that was the first time Ma had meddled in state affairs—after all, he is a long-standing Communist Party member. To be honest, Comrade, what is actually happening in China is a closely guarded secret. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (4 children) Again, I think you're reading the situation through pessimistic hermeneutics, seeing what isn't actually there as present based on pessimism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (3 children) That’s an interesting way to put it. Are you referring to Cervantes and the windmills? My subjective pessimism stems from the fact that I’ve lost faith in my own future—my personal future. It’s just that, due to certain circumstances, I reached a point where I lost hope for what lies ahead. I’ve come to terms with that now. As for objective pessimism, that has nothing to do with my personal outlook. If you like, you could call it dialectics in its most extreme form... ))))) But seriously, Comrade, when was the last time you saw someone looking toward humanity's future with confidence and optimism—without any illusions? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (2 children) I'm referring to someone whose own pessimism causes them to see negativity where there is no actual basis for it. Your mind fills in the blanks, so to speak. Nobody is immune to this, I am an optimist, a revolutionary optimist. I have to hold onto hope to move forward, and do my best to temper that with sober and grounded analysis. Optimism is a revolutionary feeling, pessimism leads to nihilism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (1 child) I’m referring to someone whose own pessimism causes them to see negativity where there is no actual basis for it. Yes, you described that guy accurately. And that’s hardly surprising, because in this world, he has no choice but to be a sociopath. As for the idea that I might be talking nonsense—that’s unlikely; I have far too much practical life experience to spout complete rubbish. I’ve clawed my way to the top three times in my life, only to hit rock bottom again. Right now, I’m at the bottom once more. Would you be an optimist if you were in my shoes, Comrade? ... ))) And please, don’t tell me that I’m the one to blame for it all, rather than the way life is set up! I am an optimist, a revolutionary optimist. You just got lucky, Comrade! I'm happy for you. I was just like that once, too. I have to hold onto hope to move forward, and do my best to temper that with sober and grounded analysis. Yes, it's Dostoevsky: The most terrible thing is when a person has nowhere to go. This quote reflects one of Fyodor Dostoevsky's most haunting themes: the crushing despair of total alienation and the human necessity for purpose. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago I don't mean it as a moral condemnation, or an expectation to be "better," but as an explanation for why we are in disagreement on certain aspects. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (8 children) I'm aware that Mao believed that. That's why the narrative that Deng Xiaoping "backstabbed" socialism is false, Reform & Opening Up was a continuation of the economic basis laid out by Mao. As for cracking down on flaunting wealth, if your impression is already highly skeptical of China, it can seem that it's only to hide it from the public. A more comprehensive view of China, however, reveals it to not be mere rhetoric but the outcome of having both a socialist state and the contradictions rising from marketization. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (7 children) I’m aware that Mao believed that. Yes, exactly! That is the main argument—held by the Chinese themselves, by Western socialists (Trotskyists), and by the "new breed" of Western socialists (like you): that China fell out with the USSR because Khrushchev pursued a policy of "openness." But I keep telling you all that this isn't true, and it wasn't about Stalin! The reason was something else entirely. Relations between Khrushchev and Mao deteriorated completely after Mao asked the USSR to build a nuclear submarine fleet for China. Khrushchev agreed, but with the stipulation that the fleet would be a joint venture and based in Soviet Far Eastern ports. For some reason, Mao took great offense at this and refused. Now you can see just how brazen Mao was. These are all matters of public record; you can read about it yourself. I believe the reason for the rift was that, after Stalin's death, Mao considered himself the world's leading socialist—superior to the others and capable of handling everything on his own. He did not view Khrushchev as his equal. We saw how that turned out. As for cracking down on flaunting wealth, if your impression is already highly skeptical of China, it can seem that it’s only to hide it from the public. Yes, I know the statistics: wage growth in China is 4–6% annually. But I’m not convinced that wages are rising only for the poor—or that the 4–6% gains belonging to the middle and upper classes are being taken away and redistributed to China’s lower-income population. Show me the data on that trend, and then I’ll agree with you. I’d like to see statistics for these companies: JD.com: The revenue leader among China’s private enterprises, generating around 1.16 trillion yuan annually. Alibaba Group: JD.com’s main rival in the e-commerce market, showing steady growth driven by logistics and international expansion. ByteDance (owner of TikTok): The fastest-growing brand and largest private tech corporation. According to analyst reports, its brand value grew by 45% in a single year, reaching $153.5 billion. In cases where profits surged by 45% (an increase of 70 billion per year), exactly how much of that actually went to the poorer segments of the population? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (6 children) I think you're reading more into my position than I have stated myself. I understand that Mao was not innocent within the split, neither were the soviets. That's why I have stated that the split was a tragedy and should have been avoided had both sides statesmen been competent enough. As for statistics on wealth over time, you can even see western articles framing this crackdown in "scary language." The trend is gradual, but it isn't nonexistent either. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (5 children) I think you’re reading more into my position than I have stated myself. Yes, Comrade, you’re right. It’s a very painful subject for me. To me, this is just like Solzhenitsyn’s The Gulag Archipelago, a work that slandered and humiliated the entire Soviet ideology. Both have fostered a distorted view of the Soviet era. They have given rise to all sorts of false theories that are published and circulated worldwide on a massive scale. Yet the Soviet soul is all I have left in life now. I am being bombed every night, but I live in the past—I live on memories... As for statistics on wealth over time, you can even see western articles framing this crackdown in “scary language.” The trend is gradual, but it isn’t nonexistent either. Ma crossed a red line; Xi decided that the oligarchs were becoming a threat to him... though he seems to have realized this rather late. We can certainly see Ma’s attempt to meddle in state affairs. People used to tell me that China has no oligarchs because Chinese billionaires don't interfere in government business. Yet, I highly doubt that was the first time Ma had meddled in state affairs—after all, he is a long-standing Communist Party member. To be honest, Comrade, what is actually happening in China is a closely guarded secret. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (4 children) Again, I think you're reading the situation through pessimistic hermeneutics, seeing what isn't actually there as present based on pessimism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (3 children) That’s an interesting way to put it. Are you referring to Cervantes and the windmills? My subjective pessimism stems from the fact that I’ve lost faith in my own future—my personal future. It’s just that, due to certain circumstances, I reached a point where I lost hope for what lies ahead. I’ve come to terms with that now. As for objective pessimism, that has nothing to do with my personal outlook. If you like, you could call it dialectics in its most extreme form... ))))) But seriously, Comrade, when was the last time you saw someone looking toward humanity's future with confidence and optimism—without any illusions? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (2 children) I'm referring to someone whose own pessimism causes them to see negativity where there is no actual basis for it. Your mind fills in the blanks, so to speak. Nobody is immune to this, I am an optimist, a revolutionary optimist. I have to hold onto hope to move forward, and do my best to temper that with sober and grounded analysis. Optimism is a revolutionary feeling, pessimism leads to nihilism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (1 child) I’m referring to someone whose own pessimism causes them to see negativity where there is no actual basis for it. Yes, you described that guy accurately. And that’s hardly surprising, because in this world, he has no choice but to be a sociopath. As for the idea that I might be talking nonsense—that’s unlikely; I have far too much practical life experience to spout complete rubbish. I’ve clawed my way to the top three times in my life, only to hit rock bottom again. Right now, I’m at the bottom once more. Would you be an optimist if you were in my shoes, Comrade? ... ))) And please, don’t tell me that I’m the one to blame for it all, rather than the way life is set up! I am an optimist, a revolutionary optimist. You just got lucky, Comrade! I'm happy for you. I was just like that once, too. I have to hold onto hope to move forward, and do my best to temper that with sober and grounded analysis. Yes, it's Dostoevsky: The most terrible thing is when a person has nowhere to go. This quote reflects one of Fyodor Dostoevsky's most haunting themes: the crushing despair of total alienation and the human necessity for purpose. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago I don't mean it as a moral condemnation, or an expectation to be "better," but as an explanation for why we are in disagreement on certain aspects. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (8 children) I'm aware that Mao believed that. That's why the narrative that Deng Xiaoping "backstabbed" socialism is false, Reform & Opening Up was a continuation of the economic basis laid out by Mao. As for cracking down on flaunting wealth, if your impression is already highly skeptical of China, it can seem that it's only to hide it from the public. A more comprehensive view of China, however, reveals it to not be mere rhetoric but the outcome of having both a socialist state and the contradictions rising from marketization. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (7 children) I’m aware that Mao believed that. Yes, exactly! That is the main argument—held by the Chinese themselves, by Western socialists (Trotskyists), and by the "new breed" of Western socialists (like you): that China fell out with the USSR because Khrushchev pursued a policy of "openness." But I keep telling you all that this isn't true, and it wasn't about Stalin! The reason was something else entirely. Relations between Khrushchev and Mao deteriorated completely after Mao asked the USSR to build a nuclear submarine fleet for China. Khrushchev agreed, but with the stipulation that the fleet would be a joint venture and based in Soviet Far Eastern ports. For some reason, Mao took great offense at this and refused. Now you can see just how brazen Mao was. These are all matters of public record; you can read about it yourself. I believe the reason for the rift was that, after Stalin's death, Mao considered himself the world's leading socialist—superior to the others and capable of handling everything on his own. He did not view Khrushchev as his equal. We saw how that turned out. As for cracking down on flaunting wealth, if your impression is already highly skeptical of China, it can seem that it’s only to hide it from the public. Yes, I know the statistics: wage growth in China is 4–6% annually. But I’m not convinced that wages are rising only for the poor—or that the 4–6% gains belonging to the middle and upper classes are being taken away and redistributed to China’s lower-income population. Show me the data on that trend, and then I’ll agree with you. I’d like to see statistics for these companies: JD.com: The revenue leader among China’s private enterprises, generating around 1.16 trillion yuan annually. Alibaba Group: JD.com’s main rival in the e-commerce market, showing steady growth driven by logistics and international expansion. ByteDance (owner of TikTok): The fastest-growing brand and largest private tech corporation. According to analyst reports, its brand value grew by 45% in a single year, reaching $153.5 billion. In cases where profits surged by 45% (an increase of 70 billion per year), exactly how much of that actually went to the poorer segments of the population? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (6 children) I think you're reading more into my position than I have stated myself. I understand that Mao was not innocent within the split, neither were the soviets. That's why I have stated that the split was a tragedy and should have been avoided had both sides statesmen been competent enough. As for statistics on wealth over time, you can even see western articles framing this crackdown in "scary language." The trend is gradual, but it isn't nonexistent either. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (5 children) I think you’re reading more into my position than I have stated myself. Yes, Comrade, you’re right. It’s a very painful subject for me. To me, this is just like Solzhenitsyn’s The Gulag Archipelago, a work that slandered and humiliated the entire Soviet ideology. Both have fostered a distorted view of the Soviet era. They have given rise to all sorts of false theories that are published and circulated worldwide on a massive scale. Yet the Soviet soul is all I have left in life now. I am being bombed every night, but I live in the past—I live on memories... As for statistics on wealth over time, you can even see western articles framing this crackdown in “scary language.” The trend is gradual, but it isn’t nonexistent either. Ma crossed a red line; Xi decided that the oligarchs were becoming a threat to him... though he seems to have realized this rather late. We can certainly see Ma’s attempt to meddle in state affairs. People used to tell me that China has no oligarchs because Chinese billionaires don't interfere in government business. Yet, I highly doubt that was the first time Ma had meddled in state affairs—after all, he is a long-standing Communist Party member. To be honest, Comrade, what is actually happening in China is a closely guarded secret. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (4 children) Again, I think you're reading the situation through pessimistic hermeneutics, seeing what isn't actually there as present based on pessimism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (3 children) That’s an interesting way to put it. Are you referring to Cervantes and the windmills? My subjective pessimism stems from the fact that I’ve lost faith in my own future—my personal future. It’s just that, due to certain circumstances, I reached a point where I lost hope for what lies ahead. I’ve come to terms with that now. As for objective pessimism, that has nothing to do with my personal outlook. If you like, you could call it dialectics in its most extreme form... ))))) But seriously, Comrade, when was the last time you saw someone looking toward humanity's future with confidence and optimism—without any illusions? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (2 children) I'm referring to someone whose own pessimism causes them to see negativity where there is no actual basis for it. Your mind fills in the blanks, so to speak. Nobody is immune to this, I am an optimist, a revolutionary optimist. I have to hold onto hope to move forward, and do my best to temper that with sober and grounded analysis. Optimism is a revolutionary feeling, pessimism leads to nihilism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (1 child) I’m referring to someone whose own pessimism causes them to see negativity where there is no actual basis for it. Yes, you described that guy accurately. And that’s hardly surprising, because in this world, he has no choice but to be a sociopath. As for the idea that I might be talking nonsense—that’s unlikely; I have far too much practical life experience to spout complete rubbish. I’ve clawed my way to the top three times in my life, only to hit rock bottom again. Right now, I’m at the bottom once more. Would you be an optimist if you were in my shoes, Comrade? ... ))) And please, don’t tell me that I’m the one to blame for it all, rather than the way life is set up! I am an optimist, a revolutionary optimist. You just got lucky, Comrade! I'm happy for you. I was just like that once, too. I have to hold onto hope to move forward, and do my best to temper that with sober and grounded analysis. Yes, it's Dostoevsky: The most terrible thing is when a person has nowhere to go. This quote reflects one of Fyodor Dostoevsky's most haunting themes: the crushing despair of total alienation and the human necessity for purpose. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago I don't mean it as a moral condemnation, or an expectation to be "better," but as an explanation for why we are in disagreement on certain aspects. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (7 children) I’m aware that Mao believed that. Yes, exactly! That is the main argument—held by the Chinese themselves, by Western socialists (Trotskyists), and by the "new breed" of Western socialists (like you): that China fell out with the USSR because Khrushchev pursued a policy of "openness." But I keep telling you all that this isn't true, and it wasn't about Stalin! The reason was something else entirely. Relations between Khrushchev and Mao deteriorated completely after Mao asked the USSR to build a nuclear submarine fleet for China. Khrushchev agreed, but with the stipulation that the fleet would be a joint venture and based in Soviet Far Eastern ports. For some reason, Mao took great offense at this and refused. Now you can see just how brazen Mao was. These are all matters of public record; you can read about it yourself. I believe the reason for the rift was that, after Stalin's death, Mao considered himself the world's leading socialist—superior to the others and capable of handling everything on his own. He did not view Khrushchev as his equal. We saw how that turned out. As for cracking down on flaunting wealth, if your impression is already highly skeptical of China, it can seem that it’s only to hide it from the public. Yes, I know the statistics: wage growth in China is 4–6% annually. But I’m not convinced that wages are rising only for the poor—or that the 4–6% gains belonging to the middle and upper classes are being taken away and redistributed to China’s lower-income population. Show me the data on that trend, and then I’ll agree with you. I’d like to see statistics for these companies: JD.com: The revenue leader among China’s private enterprises, generating around 1.16 trillion yuan annually. Alibaba Group: JD.com’s main rival in the e-commerce market, showing steady growth driven by logistics and international expansion. ByteDance (owner of TikTok): The fastest-growing brand and largest private tech corporation. According to analyst reports, its brand value grew by 45% in a single year, reaching $153.5 billion. In cases where profits surged by 45% (an increase of 70 billion per year), exactly how much of that actually went to the poorer segments of the population? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (6 children) I think you're reading more into my position than I have stated myself. I understand that Mao was not innocent within the split, neither were the soviets. That's why I have stated that the split was a tragedy and should have been avoided had both sides statesmen been competent enough. As for statistics on wealth over time, you can even see western articles framing this crackdown in "scary language." The trend is gradual, but it isn't nonexistent either. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (5 children) I think you’re reading more into my position than I have stated myself. Yes, Comrade, you’re right. It’s a very painful subject for me. To me, this is just like Solzhenitsyn’s The Gulag Archipelago, a work that slandered and humiliated the entire Soviet ideology. Both have fostered a distorted view of the Soviet era. They have given rise to all sorts of false theories that are published and circulated worldwide on a massive scale. Yet the Soviet soul is all I have left in life now. I am being bombed every night, but I live in the past—I live on memories... As for statistics on wealth over time, you can even see western articles framing this crackdown in “scary language.” The trend is gradual, but it isn’t nonexistent either. Ma crossed a red line; Xi decided that the oligarchs were becoming a threat to him... though he seems to have realized this rather late. We can certainly see Ma’s attempt to meddle in state affairs. People used to tell me that China has no oligarchs because Chinese billionaires don't interfere in government business. Yet, I highly doubt that was the first time Ma had meddled in state affairs—after all, he is a long-standing Communist Party member. To be honest, Comrade, what is actually happening in China is a closely guarded secret. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (4 children) Again, I think you're reading the situation through pessimistic hermeneutics, seeing what isn't actually there as present based on pessimism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (3 children) That’s an interesting way to put it. Are you referring to Cervantes and the windmills? My subjective pessimism stems from the fact that I’ve lost faith in my own future—my personal future. It’s just that, due to certain circumstances, I reached a point where I lost hope for what lies ahead. I’ve come to terms with that now. As for objective pessimism, that has nothing to do with my personal outlook. If you like, you could call it dialectics in its most extreme form... ))))) But seriously, Comrade, when was the last time you saw someone looking toward humanity's future with confidence and optimism—without any illusions? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (2 children) I'm referring to someone whose own pessimism causes them to see negativity where there is no actual basis for it. Your mind fills in the blanks, so to speak. Nobody is immune to this, I am an optimist, a revolutionary optimist. I have to hold onto hope to move forward, and do my best to temper that with sober and grounded analysis. Optimism is a revolutionary feeling, pessimism leads to nihilism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (1 child) I’m referring to someone whose own pessimism causes them to see negativity where there is no actual basis for it. Yes, you described that guy accurately. And that’s hardly surprising, because in this world, he has no choice but to be a sociopath. As for the idea that I might be talking nonsense—that’s unlikely; I have far too much practical life experience to spout complete rubbish. I’ve clawed my way to the top three times in my life, only to hit rock bottom again. Right now, I’m at the bottom once more. Would you be an optimist if you were in my shoes, Comrade? ... ))) And please, don’t tell me that I’m the one to blame for it all, rather than the way life is set up! I am an optimist, a revolutionary optimist. You just got lucky, Comrade! I'm happy for you. I was just like that once, too. I have to hold onto hope to move forward, and do my best to temper that with sober and grounded analysis. Yes, it's Dostoevsky: The most terrible thing is when a person has nowhere to go. This quote reflects one of Fyodor Dostoevsky's most haunting themes: the crushing despair of total alienation and the human necessity for purpose. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago I don't mean it as a moral condemnation, or an expectation to be "better," but as an explanation for why we are in disagreement on certain aspects. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (6 children) I think you're reading more into my position than I have stated myself. I understand that Mao was not innocent within the split, neither were the soviets. That's why I have stated that the split was a tragedy and should have been avoided had both sides statesmen been competent enough. As for statistics on wealth over time, you can even see western articles framing this crackdown in "scary language." The trend is gradual, but it isn't nonexistent either. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (5 children) I think you’re reading more into my position than I have stated myself. Yes, Comrade, you’re right. It’s a very painful subject for me. To me, this is just like Solzhenitsyn’s The Gulag Archipelago, a work that slandered and humiliated the entire Soviet ideology. Both have fostered a distorted view of the Soviet era. They have given rise to all sorts of false theories that are published and circulated worldwide on a massive scale. Yet the Soviet soul is all I have left in life now. I am being bombed every night, but I live in the past—I live on memories... As for statistics on wealth over time, you can even see western articles framing this crackdown in “scary language.” The trend is gradual, but it isn’t nonexistent either. Ma crossed a red line; Xi decided that the oligarchs were becoming a threat to him... though he seems to have realized this rather late. We can certainly see Ma’s attempt to meddle in state affairs. People used to tell me that China has no oligarchs because Chinese billionaires don't interfere in government business. Yet, I highly doubt that was the first time Ma had meddled in state affairs—after all, he is a long-standing Communist Party member. To be honest, Comrade, what is actually happening in China is a closely guarded secret. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (4 children) Again, I think you're reading the situation through pessimistic hermeneutics, seeing what isn't actually there as present based on pessimism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (3 children) That’s an interesting way to put it. Are you referring to Cervantes and the windmills? My subjective pessimism stems from the fact that I’ve lost faith in my own future—my personal future. It’s just that, due to certain circumstances, I reached a point where I lost hope for what lies ahead. I’ve come to terms with that now. As for objective pessimism, that has nothing to do with my personal outlook. If you like, you could call it dialectics in its most extreme form... ))))) But seriously, Comrade, when was the last time you saw someone looking toward humanity's future with confidence and optimism—without any illusions? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (2 children) I'm referring to someone whose own pessimism causes them to see negativity where there is no actual basis for it. Your mind fills in the blanks, so to speak. Nobody is immune to this, I am an optimist, a revolutionary optimist. I have to hold onto hope to move forward, and do my best to temper that with sober and grounded analysis. Optimism is a revolutionary feeling, pessimism leads to nihilism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (1 child) I’m referring to someone whose own pessimism causes them to see negativity where there is no actual basis for it. Yes, you described that guy accurately. And that’s hardly surprising, because in this world, he has no choice but to be a sociopath. As for the idea that I might be talking nonsense—that’s unlikely; I have far too much practical life experience to spout complete rubbish. I’ve clawed my way to the top three times in my life, only to hit rock bottom again. Right now, I’m at the bottom once more. Would you be an optimist if you were in my shoes, Comrade? ... ))) And please, don’t tell me that I’m the one to blame for it all, rather than the way life is set up! I am an optimist, a revolutionary optimist. You just got lucky, Comrade! I'm happy for you. I was just like that once, too. I have to hold onto hope to move forward, and do my best to temper that with sober and grounded analysis. Yes, it's Dostoevsky: The most terrible thing is when a person has nowhere to go. This quote reflects one of Fyodor Dostoevsky's most haunting themes: the crushing despair of total alienation and the human necessity for purpose. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago I don't mean it as a moral condemnation, or an expectation to be "better," but as an explanation for why we are in disagreement on certain aspects. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (5 children) I think you’re reading more into my position than I have stated myself. Yes, Comrade, you’re right. It’s a very painful subject for me. To me, this is just like Solzhenitsyn’s The Gulag Archipelago, a work that slandered and humiliated the entire Soviet ideology. Both have fostered a distorted view of the Soviet era. They have given rise to all sorts of false theories that are published and circulated worldwide on a massive scale. Yet the Soviet soul is all I have left in life now. I am being bombed every night, but I live in the past—I live on memories... As for statistics on wealth over time, you can even see western articles framing this crackdown in “scary language.” The trend is gradual, but it isn’t nonexistent either. Ma crossed a red line; Xi decided that the oligarchs were becoming a threat to him... though he seems to have realized this rather late. We can certainly see Ma’s attempt to meddle in state affairs. People used to tell me that China has no oligarchs because Chinese billionaires don't interfere in government business. Yet, I highly doubt that was the first time Ma had meddled in state affairs—after all, he is a long-standing Communist Party member. To be honest, Comrade, what is actually happening in China is a closely guarded secret. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (4 children) Again, I think you're reading the situation through pessimistic hermeneutics, seeing what isn't actually there as present based on pessimism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (3 children) That’s an interesting way to put it. Are you referring to Cervantes and the windmills? My subjective pessimism stems from the fact that I’ve lost faith in my own future—my personal future. It’s just that, due to certain circumstances, I reached a point where I lost hope for what lies ahead. I’ve come to terms with that now. As for objective pessimism, that has nothing to do with my personal outlook. If you like, you could call it dialectics in its most extreme form... ))))) But seriously, Comrade, when was the last time you saw someone looking toward humanity's future with confidence and optimism—without any illusions? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (2 children) I'm referring to someone whose own pessimism causes them to see negativity where there is no actual basis for it. Your mind fills in the blanks, so to speak. Nobody is immune to this, I am an optimist, a revolutionary optimist. I have to hold onto hope to move forward, and do my best to temper that with sober and grounded analysis. Optimism is a revolutionary feeling, pessimism leads to nihilism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (1 child) I’m referring to someone whose own pessimism causes them to see negativity where there is no actual basis for it. Yes, you described that guy accurately. And that’s hardly surprising, because in this world, he has no choice but to be a sociopath. As for the idea that I might be talking nonsense—that’s unlikely; I have far too much practical life experience to spout complete rubbish. I’ve clawed my way to the top three times in my life, only to hit rock bottom again. Right now, I’m at the bottom once more. Would you be an optimist if you were in my shoes, Comrade? ... ))) And please, don’t tell me that I’m the one to blame for it all, rather than the way life is set up! I am an optimist, a revolutionary optimist. You just got lucky, Comrade! I'm happy for you. I was just like that once, too. I have to hold onto hope to move forward, and do my best to temper that with sober and grounded analysis. Yes, it's Dostoevsky: The most terrible thing is when a person has nowhere to go. This quote reflects one of Fyodor Dostoevsky's most haunting themes: the crushing despair of total alienation and the human necessity for purpose. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago I don't mean it as a moral condemnation, or an expectation to be "better," but as an explanation for why we are in disagreement on certain aspects. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (4 children) Again, I think you're reading the situation through pessimistic hermeneutics, seeing what isn't actually there as present based on pessimism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (3 children) That’s an interesting way to put it. Are you referring to Cervantes and the windmills? My subjective pessimism stems from the fact that I’ve lost faith in my own future—my personal future. It’s just that, due to certain circumstances, I reached a point where I lost hope for what lies ahead. I’ve come to terms with that now. As for objective pessimism, that has nothing to do with my personal outlook. If you like, you could call it dialectics in its most extreme form... ))))) But seriously, Comrade, when was the last time you saw someone looking toward humanity's future with confidence and optimism—without any illusions? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (2 children) I'm referring to someone whose own pessimism causes them to see negativity where there is no actual basis for it. Your mind fills in the blanks, so to speak. Nobody is immune to this, I am an optimist, a revolutionary optimist. I have to hold onto hope to move forward, and do my best to temper that with sober and grounded analysis. Optimism is a revolutionary feeling, pessimism leads to nihilism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (1 child) I’m referring to someone whose own pessimism causes them to see negativity where there is no actual basis for it. Yes, you described that guy accurately. And that’s hardly surprising, because in this world, he has no choice but to be a sociopath. As for the idea that I might be talking nonsense—that’s unlikely; I have far too much practical life experience to spout complete rubbish. I’ve clawed my way to the top three times in my life, only to hit rock bottom again. Right now, I’m at the bottom once more. Would you be an optimist if you were in my shoes, Comrade? ... ))) And please, don’t tell me that I’m the one to blame for it all, rather than the way life is set up! I am an optimist, a revolutionary optimist. You just got lucky, Comrade! I'm happy for you. I was just like that once, too. I have to hold onto hope to move forward, and do my best to temper that with sober and grounded analysis. Yes, it's Dostoevsky: The most terrible thing is when a person has nowhere to go. This quote reflects one of Fyodor Dostoevsky's most haunting themes: the crushing despair of total alienation and the human necessity for purpose. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago I don't mean it as a moral condemnation, or an expectation to be "better," but as an explanation for why we are in disagreement on certain aspects. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (3 children) That’s an interesting way to put it. Are you referring to Cervantes and the windmills? My subjective pessimism stems from the fact that I’ve lost faith in my own future—my personal future. It’s just that, due to certain circumstances, I reached a point where I lost hope for what lies ahead. I’ve come to terms with that now. As for objective pessimism, that has nothing to do with my personal outlook. If you like, you could call it dialectics in its most extreme form... ))))) But seriously, Comrade, when was the last time you saw someone looking toward humanity's future with confidence and optimism—without any illusions? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (2 children) I'm referring to someone whose own pessimism causes them to see negativity where there is no actual basis for it. Your mind fills in the blanks, so to speak. Nobody is immune to this, I am an optimist, a revolutionary optimist. I have to hold onto hope to move forward, and do my best to temper that with sober and grounded analysis. Optimism is a revolutionary feeling, pessimism leads to nihilism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (1 child) I’m referring to someone whose own pessimism causes them to see negativity where there is no actual basis for it. Yes, you described that guy accurately. And that’s hardly surprising, because in this world, he has no choice but to be a sociopath. As for the idea that I might be talking nonsense—that’s unlikely; I have far too much practical life experience to spout complete rubbish. I’ve clawed my way to the top three times in my life, only to hit rock bottom again. Right now, I’m at the bottom once more. Would you be an optimist if you were in my shoes, Comrade? ... ))) And please, don’t tell me that I’m the one to blame for it all, rather than the way life is set up! I am an optimist, a revolutionary optimist. You just got lucky, Comrade! I'm happy for you. I was just like that once, too. I have to hold onto hope to move forward, and do my best to temper that with sober and grounded analysis. Yes, it's Dostoevsky: The most terrible thing is when a person has nowhere to go. This quote reflects one of Fyodor Dostoevsky's most haunting themes: the crushing despair of total alienation and the human necessity for purpose. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago I don't mean it as a moral condemnation, or an expectation to be "better," but as an explanation for why we are in disagreement on certain aspects. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (2 children) I'm referring to someone whose own pessimism causes them to see negativity where there is no actual basis for it. Your mind fills in the blanks, so to speak. Nobody is immune to this, I am an optimist, a revolutionary optimist. I have to hold onto hope to move forward, and do my best to temper that with sober and grounded analysis. Optimism is a revolutionary feeling, pessimism leads to nihilism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (1 child) I’m referring to someone whose own pessimism causes them to see negativity where there is no actual basis for it. Yes, you described that guy accurately. And that’s hardly surprising, because in this world, he has no choice but to be a sociopath. As for the idea that I might be talking nonsense—that’s unlikely; I have far too much practical life experience to spout complete rubbish. I’ve clawed my way to the top three times in my life, only to hit rock bottom again. Right now, I’m at the bottom once more. Would you be an optimist if you were in my shoes, Comrade? ... ))) And please, don’t tell me that I’m the one to blame for it all, rather than the way life is set up! I am an optimist, a revolutionary optimist. You just got lucky, Comrade! I'm happy for you. I was just like that once, too. I have to hold onto hope to move forward, and do my best to temper that with sober and grounded analysis. Yes, it's Dostoevsky: The most terrible thing is when a person has nowhere to go. This quote reflects one of Fyodor Dostoevsky's most haunting themes: the crushing despair of total alienation and the human necessity for purpose. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago I don't mean it as a moral condemnation, or an expectation to be "better," but as an explanation for why we are in disagreement on certain aspects. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (1 child) I’m referring to someone whose own pessimism causes them to see negativity where there is no actual basis for it. Yes, you described that guy accurately. And that’s hardly surprising, because in this world, he has no choice but to be a sociopath. As for the idea that I might be talking nonsense—that’s unlikely; I have far too much practical life experience to spout complete rubbish. I’ve clawed my way to the top three times in my life, only to hit rock bottom again. Right now, I’m at the bottom once more. Would you be an optimist if you were in my shoes, Comrade? ... ))) And please, don’t tell me that I’m the one to blame for it all, rather than the way life is set up! I am an optimist, a revolutionary optimist. You just got lucky, Comrade! I'm happy for you. I was just like that once, too. I have to hold onto hope to move forward, and do my best to temper that with sober and grounded analysis. Yes, it's Dostoevsky: The most terrible thing is when a person has nowhere to go. This quote reflects one of Fyodor Dostoevsky's most haunting themes: the crushing despair of total alienation and the human necessity for purpose. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago I don't mean it as a moral condemnation, or an expectation to be "better," but as an explanation for why we are in disagreement on certain aspects. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago I don't mean it as a moral condemnation, or an expectation to be "better," but as an explanation for why we are in disagreement on certain aspects. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (6 children) It's certainly true that mistakes in work and management exaggerated the impacts of natural disaster. This did result in making a naturally occurring famine worse, similar to what happened in the 1930s soviet famine. However, between 1949 and 1978, agriculture was dramatically overhauled and succeeded in achieving food security, ending famine in a region where famine was historically common (again, similar to the 1930s soviet famine). Was the Great Leap Forward a clear success? No, not necessarily. Over-enthusiasm and mistakes in work magnified the impact of weather disaster. Millions did die. However, these mistakes were rectified, and agriculture was successfully advanced. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (4 children) Similar to the soviet experience, Chinese workers are holding their heads high in new stages in socialist construction, with simiarly rapid levels of development. Anecdotes aside, this experience is common among both China and the USSR. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (1 child) You could be correct, but we would never know. If only people in the USSR back then had known what they stood to lose... permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago Agreed. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (2 replies) load more comments (1 reply)
[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (6 children) It's certainly true that mistakes in work and management exaggerated the impacts of natural disaster. This did result in making a naturally occurring famine worse, similar to what happened in the 1930s soviet famine. However, between 1949 and 1978, agriculture was dramatically overhauled and succeeded in achieving food security, ending famine in a region where famine was historically common (again, similar to the 1930s soviet famine). Was the Great Leap Forward a clear success? No, not necessarily. Over-enthusiasm and mistakes in work magnified the impact of weather disaster. Millions did die. However, these mistakes were rectified, and agriculture was successfully advanced. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (4 children) Similar to the soviet experience, Chinese workers are holding their heads high in new stages in socialist construction, with simiarly rapid levels of development. Anecdotes aside, this experience is common among both China and the USSR. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (1 child) You could be correct, but we would never know. If only people in the USSR back then had known what they stood to lose... permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago Agreed. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (2 replies) load more comments (1 reply)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (4 children) Similar to the soviet experience, Chinese workers are holding their heads high in new stages in socialist construction, with simiarly rapid levels of development. Anecdotes aside, this experience is common among both China and the USSR. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (1 child) You could be correct, but we would never know. If only people in the USSR back then had known what they stood to lose... permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago Agreed. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (2 replies)
[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (4 children) Similar to the soviet experience, Chinese workers are holding their heads high in new stages in socialist construction, with simiarly rapid levels of development. Anecdotes aside, this experience is common among both China and the USSR. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (1 child) You could be correct, but we would never know. If only people in the USSR back then had known what they stood to lose... permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago Agreed. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (2 replies)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (1 child) You could be correct, but we would never know. If only people in the USSR back then had known what they stood to lose... permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago Agreed. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Sedan@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago (1 child) You could be correct, but we would never know. If only people in the USSR back then had known what they stood to lose... permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 5 months ago Agreed. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (15 children) Why don’t Chinese farmers receive old-age pensions? Where do their taxes and surpluses go? They do. To the pensions and also the massive modernising of rural villages from unconnected backwards villages with no electricity roads or plumbing to modern villages with electricity roads plumbing WiFi and public transit. Alongside the constant and ongoing targeted poverty alleviation. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 15 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (13 children) I recently watched a video on YouTube where a Russian blogger came to a Chinese village Comrade anecdotes are not worth much permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 13 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago* (11 children) "Individuals who participate in the pension insurance for urban and rural residents, who have reached the age of 60 and have paid a cumulative contribution for 15 years, and have not received the basic pension protection treatment stipulated by the state, can receive the pension insurance benefits of urban and rural residents on a monthly basis." Everyone receives a minimum pension but you cannot take the basic pension on top of other pensions. Comrade I wish I could say you appear intelligent and sincere but it would be a lie in both cases I am afraid to say. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 11 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (5 children) basic pension is 150-200 yuan. Wrong that's the national floor that is legally required but each local government adds their own contributions on top of this for example if you fall under the Shanghai local government you would receive 1500 per month as your basic pension. That was a real village, and real peasants. I didn't say it wasn't. I said it was an anecdote. Ukraine is 450 yuan, converted. That’s a paltry sum, you can’t live on it. Good thing cost of living in Chinese rural villages is tiny. In most especially the most rural ones you could likely get by on 50rmb a month especially with the community help that comes with village life. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (3 children) Personally, I don’t find it funny. Please look up what anecdote/anecdotal evidence means You could survive without a salary; everyone had their own garden and livestock or poultry. I know what that’s like. And I am from a rural Chinese village so I know even better than you. Can you imagine the gap between the city and the village? Thoughts of someone who hasn't studied theory or China. Cities obviously develop faster than rural areas. If only you could have seen mine and our neighbouring villages even 15 years ago not to mind 20 30 50 years ago compared to today. You wouldn't be spreading all of this bullshit about rural people not seeing any benefits permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (1 child) that video said that the rich regions are doing well, I am not from a rich region 🤣 You’re from Shanghai or thereabouts Not at all If you hadn’t spoken so harshly to me, I probably would have kept quiet And if you hadn't been spreading bullshit I wouldn't have felt the need to speak harshly. It would have been best if you had kept quiet instead of speaking nonsense. Comrade I think we should leave this here. Maybe we can talk again when you decide to educate yourself before speaking. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) [–] eldavi@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (3 children) your source is youtube; think on that. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (1 child) Please search what anecdote means before getting offended or assuming what it means Anecdotal evidence is evidence based on descriptions and reports of individual, personal experiences, or observations, collected in a non-systematic manner. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (13 children) I recently watched a video on YouTube where a Russian blogger came to a Chinese village Comrade anecdotes are not worth much permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 13 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago* (11 children) "Individuals who participate in the pension insurance for urban and rural residents, who have reached the age of 60 and have paid a cumulative contribution for 15 years, and have not received the basic pension protection treatment stipulated by the state, can receive the pension insurance benefits of urban and rural residents on a monthly basis." Everyone receives a minimum pension but you cannot take the basic pension on top of other pensions. Comrade I wish I could say you appear intelligent and sincere but it would be a lie in both cases I am afraid to say. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 11 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (5 children) basic pension is 150-200 yuan. Wrong that's the national floor that is legally required but each local government adds their own contributions on top of this for example if you fall under the Shanghai local government you would receive 1500 per month as your basic pension. That was a real village, and real peasants. I didn't say it wasn't. I said it was an anecdote. Ukraine is 450 yuan, converted. That’s a paltry sum, you can’t live on it. Good thing cost of living in Chinese rural villages is tiny. In most especially the most rural ones you could likely get by on 50rmb a month especially with the community help that comes with village life. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (3 children) Personally, I don’t find it funny. Please look up what anecdote/anecdotal evidence means You could survive without a salary; everyone had their own garden and livestock or poultry. I know what that’s like. And I am from a rural Chinese village so I know even better than you. Can you imagine the gap between the city and the village? Thoughts of someone who hasn't studied theory or China. Cities obviously develop faster than rural areas. If only you could have seen mine and our neighbouring villages even 15 years ago not to mind 20 30 50 years ago compared to today. You wouldn't be spreading all of this bullshit about rural people not seeing any benefits permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (1 child) that video said that the rich regions are doing well, I am not from a rich region 🤣 You’re from Shanghai or thereabouts Not at all If you hadn’t spoken so harshly to me, I probably would have kept quiet And if you hadn't been spreading bullshit I wouldn't have felt the need to speak harshly. It would have been best if you had kept quiet instead of speaking nonsense. Comrade I think we should leave this here. Maybe we can talk again when you decide to educate yourself before speaking. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) [–] eldavi@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (3 children) your source is youtube; think on that. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (1 child) Please search what anecdote means before getting offended or assuming what it means Anecdotal evidence is evidence based on descriptions and reports of individual, personal experiences, or observations, collected in a non-systematic manner. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply)
[–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 months ago (13 children) I recently watched a video on YouTube where a Russian blogger came to a Chinese village Comrade anecdotes are not worth much permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 13 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago* (11 children) "Individuals who participate in the pension insurance for urban and rural residents, who have reached the age of 60 and have paid a cumulative contribution for 15 years, and have not received the basic pension protection treatment stipulated by the state, can receive the pension insurance benefits of urban and rural residents on a monthly basis." Everyone receives a minimum pension but you cannot take the basic pension on top of other pensions. Comrade I wish I could say you appear intelligent and sincere but it would be a lie in both cases I am afraid to say. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 11 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (5 children) basic pension is 150-200 yuan. Wrong that's the national floor that is legally required but each local government adds their own contributions on top of this for example if you fall under the Shanghai local government you would receive 1500 per month as your basic pension. That was a real village, and real peasants. I didn't say it wasn't. I said it was an anecdote. Ukraine is 450 yuan, converted. That’s a paltry sum, you can’t live on it. Good thing cost of living in Chinese rural villages is tiny. In most especially the most rural ones you could likely get by on 50rmb a month especially with the community help that comes with village life. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (3 children) Personally, I don’t find it funny. Please look up what anecdote/anecdotal evidence means You could survive without a salary; everyone had their own garden and livestock or poultry. I know what that’s like. And I am from a rural Chinese village so I know even better than you. Can you imagine the gap between the city and the village? Thoughts of someone who hasn't studied theory or China. Cities obviously develop faster than rural areas. If only you could have seen mine and our neighbouring villages even 15 years ago not to mind 20 30 50 years ago compared to today. You wouldn't be spreading all of this bullshit about rural people not seeing any benefits permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (1 child) that video said that the rich regions are doing well, I am not from a rich region 🤣 You’re from Shanghai or thereabouts Not at all If you hadn’t spoken so harshly to me, I probably would have kept quiet And if you hadn't been spreading bullshit I wouldn't have felt the need to speak harshly. It would have been best if you had kept quiet instead of speaking nonsense. Comrade I think we should leave this here. Maybe we can talk again when you decide to educate yourself before speaking. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) [–] eldavi@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (3 children) your source is youtube; think on that. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (1 child) Please search what anecdote means before getting offended or assuming what it means Anecdotal evidence is evidence based on descriptions and reports of individual, personal experiences, or observations, collected in a non-systematic manner. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago* (11 children) "Individuals who participate in the pension insurance for urban and rural residents, who have reached the age of 60 and have paid a cumulative contribution for 15 years, and have not received the basic pension protection treatment stipulated by the state, can receive the pension insurance benefits of urban and rural residents on a monthly basis." Everyone receives a minimum pension but you cannot take the basic pension on top of other pensions. Comrade I wish I could say you appear intelligent and sincere but it would be a lie in both cases I am afraid to say. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 11 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (5 children) basic pension is 150-200 yuan. Wrong that's the national floor that is legally required but each local government adds their own contributions on top of this for example if you fall under the Shanghai local government you would receive 1500 per month as your basic pension. That was a real village, and real peasants. I didn't say it wasn't. I said it was an anecdote. Ukraine is 450 yuan, converted. That’s a paltry sum, you can’t live on it. Good thing cost of living in Chinese rural villages is tiny. In most especially the most rural ones you could likely get by on 50rmb a month especially with the community help that comes with village life. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (3 children) Personally, I don’t find it funny. Please look up what anecdote/anecdotal evidence means You could survive without a salary; everyone had their own garden and livestock or poultry. I know what that’s like. And I am from a rural Chinese village so I know even better than you. Can you imagine the gap between the city and the village? Thoughts of someone who hasn't studied theory or China. Cities obviously develop faster than rural areas. If only you could have seen mine and our neighbouring villages even 15 years ago not to mind 20 30 50 years ago compared to today. You wouldn't be spreading all of this bullshit about rural people not seeing any benefits permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (1 child) that video said that the rich regions are doing well, I am not from a rich region 🤣 You’re from Shanghai or thereabouts Not at all If you hadn’t spoken so harshly to me, I probably would have kept quiet And if you hadn't been spreading bullshit I wouldn't have felt the need to speak harshly. It would have been best if you had kept quiet instead of speaking nonsense. Comrade I think we should leave this here. Maybe we can talk again when you decide to educate yourself before speaking. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) [–] eldavi@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (3 children) your source is youtube; think on that. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (1 child) Please search what anecdote means before getting offended or assuming what it means Anecdotal evidence is evidence based on descriptions and reports of individual, personal experiences, or observations, collected in a non-systematic manner. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply)
[–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago* (11 children) "Individuals who participate in the pension insurance for urban and rural residents, who have reached the age of 60 and have paid a cumulative contribution for 15 years, and have not received the basic pension protection treatment stipulated by the state, can receive the pension insurance benefits of urban and rural residents on a monthly basis." Everyone receives a minimum pension but you cannot take the basic pension on top of other pensions. Comrade I wish I could say you appear intelligent and sincere but it would be a lie in both cases I am afraid to say. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 11 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (5 children) basic pension is 150-200 yuan. Wrong that's the national floor that is legally required but each local government adds their own contributions on top of this for example if you fall under the Shanghai local government you would receive 1500 per month as your basic pension. That was a real village, and real peasants. I didn't say it wasn't. I said it was an anecdote. Ukraine is 450 yuan, converted. That’s a paltry sum, you can’t live on it. Good thing cost of living in Chinese rural villages is tiny. In most especially the most rural ones you could likely get by on 50rmb a month especially with the community help that comes with village life. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (3 children) Personally, I don’t find it funny. Please look up what anecdote/anecdotal evidence means You could survive without a salary; everyone had their own garden and livestock or poultry. I know what that’s like. And I am from a rural Chinese village so I know even better than you. Can you imagine the gap between the city and the village? Thoughts of someone who hasn't studied theory or China. Cities obviously develop faster than rural areas. If only you could have seen mine and our neighbouring villages even 15 years ago not to mind 20 30 50 years ago compared to today. You wouldn't be spreading all of this bullshit about rural people not seeing any benefits permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (1 child) that video said that the rich regions are doing well, I am not from a rich region 🤣 You’re from Shanghai or thereabouts Not at all If you hadn’t spoken so harshly to me, I probably would have kept quiet And if you hadn't been spreading bullshit I wouldn't have felt the need to speak harshly. It would have been best if you had kept quiet instead of speaking nonsense. Comrade I think we should leave this here. Maybe we can talk again when you decide to educate yourself before speaking. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) [–] eldavi@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (3 children) your source is youtube; think on that. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (1 child) Please search what anecdote means before getting offended or assuming what it means Anecdotal evidence is evidence based on descriptions and reports of individual, personal experiences, or observations, collected in a non-systematic manner. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (5 children) basic pension is 150-200 yuan. Wrong that's the national floor that is legally required but each local government adds their own contributions on top of this for example if you fall under the Shanghai local government you would receive 1500 per month as your basic pension. That was a real village, and real peasants. I didn't say it wasn't. I said it was an anecdote. Ukraine is 450 yuan, converted. That’s a paltry sum, you can’t live on it. Good thing cost of living in Chinese rural villages is tiny. In most especially the most rural ones you could likely get by on 50rmb a month especially with the community help that comes with village life. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (3 children) Personally, I don’t find it funny. Please look up what anecdote/anecdotal evidence means You could survive without a salary; everyone had their own garden and livestock or poultry. I know what that’s like. And I am from a rural Chinese village so I know even better than you. Can you imagine the gap between the city and the village? Thoughts of someone who hasn't studied theory or China. Cities obviously develop faster than rural areas. If only you could have seen mine and our neighbouring villages even 15 years ago not to mind 20 30 50 years ago compared to today. You wouldn't be spreading all of this bullshit about rural people not seeing any benefits permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (1 child) that video said that the rich regions are doing well, I am not from a rich region 🤣 You’re from Shanghai or thereabouts Not at all If you hadn’t spoken so harshly to me, I probably would have kept quiet And if you hadn't been spreading bullshit I wouldn't have felt the need to speak harshly. It would have been best if you had kept quiet instead of speaking nonsense. Comrade I think we should leave this here. Maybe we can talk again when you decide to educate yourself before speaking. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) [–] eldavi@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (3 children) your source is youtube; think on that. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (1 child) Please search what anecdote means before getting offended or assuming what it means Anecdotal evidence is evidence based on descriptions and reports of individual, personal experiences, or observations, collected in a non-systematic manner. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply)
[–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (5 children) basic pension is 150-200 yuan. Wrong that's the national floor that is legally required but each local government adds their own contributions on top of this for example if you fall under the Shanghai local government you would receive 1500 per month as your basic pension. That was a real village, and real peasants. I didn't say it wasn't. I said it was an anecdote. Ukraine is 450 yuan, converted. That’s a paltry sum, you can’t live on it. Good thing cost of living in Chinese rural villages is tiny. In most especially the most rural ones you could likely get by on 50rmb a month especially with the community help that comes with village life. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (3 children) Personally, I don’t find it funny. Please look up what anecdote/anecdotal evidence means You could survive without a salary; everyone had their own garden and livestock or poultry. I know what that’s like. And I am from a rural Chinese village so I know even better than you. Can you imagine the gap between the city and the village? Thoughts of someone who hasn't studied theory or China. Cities obviously develop faster than rural areas. If only you could have seen mine and our neighbouring villages even 15 years ago not to mind 20 30 50 years ago compared to today. You wouldn't be spreading all of this bullshit about rural people not seeing any benefits permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (1 child) that video said that the rich regions are doing well, I am not from a rich region 🤣 You’re from Shanghai or thereabouts Not at all If you hadn’t spoken so harshly to me, I probably would have kept quiet And if you hadn't been spreading bullshit I wouldn't have felt the need to speak harshly. It would have been best if you had kept quiet instead of speaking nonsense. Comrade I think we should leave this here. Maybe we can talk again when you decide to educate yourself before speaking. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (3 children) Personally, I don’t find it funny. Please look up what anecdote/anecdotal evidence means You could survive without a salary; everyone had their own garden and livestock or poultry. I know what that’s like. And I am from a rural Chinese village so I know even better than you. Can you imagine the gap between the city and the village? Thoughts of someone who hasn't studied theory or China. Cities obviously develop faster than rural areas. If only you could have seen mine and our neighbouring villages even 15 years ago not to mind 20 30 50 years ago compared to today. You wouldn't be spreading all of this bullshit about rural people not seeing any benefits permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (1 child) that video said that the rich regions are doing well, I am not from a rich region 🤣 You’re from Shanghai or thereabouts Not at all If you hadn’t spoken so harshly to me, I probably would have kept quiet And if you hadn't been spreading bullshit I wouldn't have felt the need to speak harshly. It would have been best if you had kept quiet instead of speaking nonsense. Comrade I think we should leave this here. Maybe we can talk again when you decide to educate yourself before speaking. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply)
[–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (3 children) Personally, I don’t find it funny. Please look up what anecdote/anecdotal evidence means You could survive without a salary; everyone had their own garden and livestock or poultry. I know what that’s like. And I am from a rural Chinese village so I know even better than you. Can you imagine the gap between the city and the village? Thoughts of someone who hasn't studied theory or China. Cities obviously develop faster than rural areas. If only you could have seen mine and our neighbouring villages even 15 years ago not to mind 20 30 50 years ago compared to today. You wouldn't be spreading all of this bullshit about rural people not seeing any benefits permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (1 child) that video said that the rich regions are doing well, I am not from a rich region 🤣 You’re from Shanghai or thereabouts Not at all If you hadn’t spoken so harshly to me, I probably would have kept quiet And if you hadn't been spreading bullshit I wouldn't have felt the need to speak harshly. It would have been best if you had kept quiet instead of speaking nonsense. Comrade I think we should leave this here. Maybe we can talk again when you decide to educate yourself before speaking. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (1 child) that video said that the rich regions are doing well, I am not from a rich region 🤣 You’re from Shanghai or thereabouts Not at all If you hadn’t spoken so harshly to me, I probably would have kept quiet And if you hadn't been spreading bullshit I wouldn't have felt the need to speak harshly. It would have been best if you had kept quiet instead of speaking nonsense. Comrade I think we should leave this here. Maybe we can talk again when you decide to educate yourself before speaking. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply)
[–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (1 child) that video said that the rich regions are doing well, I am not from a rich region 🤣 You’re from Shanghai or thereabouts Not at all If you hadn’t spoken so harshly to me, I probably would have kept quiet And if you hadn't been spreading bullshit I wouldn't have felt the need to speak harshly. It would have been best if you had kept quiet instead of speaking nonsense. Comrade I think we should leave this here. Maybe we can talk again when you decide to educate yourself before speaking. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply)
[–] eldavi@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (3 children) your source is youtube; think on that. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (1 child) Please search what anecdote means before getting offended or assuming what it means Anecdotal evidence is evidence based on descriptions and reports of individual, personal experiences, or observations, collected in a non-systematic manner. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply) load more comments (1 reply)
[–] a comment that isn't shown here: deleted, from someone you've blocked, or on another page. view the thread from it replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (1 child) Please search what anecdote means before getting offended or assuming what it means Anecdotal evidence is evidence based on descriptions and reports of individual, personal experiences, or observations, collected in a non-systematic manner. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply)
[–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago (1 child) Please search what anecdote means before getting offended or assuming what it means Anecdotal evidence is evidence based on descriptions and reports of individual, personal experiences, or observations, collected in a non-systematic manner. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment load more comments (1 reply)