Everybody knows about the backstory, there was a civil war, KMT fled to Taiwan creating two Chinas sort of, maybe, neither recognises the other, whole thing. ROC (Taiwan) ended up transitioning from military rule to a multi-party democracy, while the PRC (mainland China) didn't do that (they did reform economically, "socialism with Chinese characteristics" and all that, but still a one-party state, not a multi-party democracy). The status quo right now is that Taiwan is in the grey area of statehood where they function pretty much independently but aren't properly recognised, and both sides of the strait are feeling pretty tense right now.

Taiwan's stance on the issue is that they would like to remain politically and economically independent of mainland China, retaining their multi-party democracy, political connections to its allies, economic trade connections, etc. Also, a majority of the people in Taiwan do not support reunification with China.

China's stance on the issue is that Taiwan should be reunified with the mainland at all costs, ideally peacefully, but war is not ruled out. They argue that Taiwan was unfairly separated from the mainland by imperial powers in their "century of humiliation". Strategically, taking Taiwan would be beneficial to China as they would have better control of the sea.

Is it even possible for both sides to agree to a peaceful solution? Personally, I can only see two ways this could go about that has the consent of both parties. One, a reformist leader takes power in the mainland and gives up on Taiwan, and the two exist as separate independent nations. Or two, the mainland gets a super-reformist leader that transitions the mainland to a multi-party democracy, and maybe then reunification could be on the table, with Taiwan keeping an autonomous status given the large cultural difference (similar to Hong Kong or Macau's current status). Both options are, unfortunately, very unlikely to occur in the near future.

A third option (?) would be a pseudo-unification, where Taiwan becomes a recognised country, but there can be free movement of people between the mainland and Taiwan, free trade, that sort of stuff (sort of like the EU? Maybe?). Not sure if the PRC would accept that.

What are your thoughts on a peaceful solution to the crisis that both sides could agree on?

edit: Damn there are crazies in both ends of the arguments. I really don't think giving Taiwan nukes would help solve the problem.

I think the current best solution, looking at the more reasonable and realistic comments, seems to be to maintain the status quo, at least until both sides of the strait are able to come into some sort of agreement (which seems to be worlds away right now given their current very opposing stances on the issue)

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[–] -4 points 8 months ago (77 children)

You tell me. Why do so many feel the need to use the Chinese civil war split to push racism, xenophobia and chauvinism against the Chinese? Saying Taiwan should be independent isn't what I'm taking issue with even if I disagree with that statement personally. It's the racism that you(general you not you specifically) accompany it with.

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  • [–] 12 points 8 months ago (25 children)

    You tell me. Why do so many feel the need to use the Chinese civil war split to push racism, xenophobia and chauvinism against the Chinese?

    I don't know. Am I doing that when I say that Taiwan should ideally be an independent state because that's ultimately what they want?

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  • [+] 1 point 8 months ago (23 children)
  • [–] 9 points 8 months ago (22 children)

    And you'd be foolish to think China's rhetoric and threats doesn't impact how people vote on that. In any case, "Reunification" is very much the least favourite choice from all of them.

    And Taiwan is already a de facto independent state.

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  • [+] 0 points 8 months ago (22 children)
  • [–] 5 points 8 months ago (21 children)

    I can literally read their polling on this and in a binary choice between official independence and "reunification", the former wins out.

    Right, which is why throwing the situation into chaos to force a non-issue is completely absurd.

    I didn't say anything should change. Just that they do not want to be incorporated into China.

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  • [+] 2 points 8 months ago* (21 children)
  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago (19 children)

    That’s not what you said. What you actually said was “Taiwan should ideally be an independent state because that’s ultimately what they want?” That sounds a lot like calling for formal independence, not the status quo.

    I do believe it's what they want, but geopolitical pressures and reality ultimately get the response we see above. What we can see is that, eliminating the safe, friction-free option of status quo that about 7-8% want to unify and 25-26% want to officially seek independence.

    Now this isn't me saying they should actually do that now, but simply that is how I interpret the data.

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  • [+] 3 points 8 months ago (19 children)
  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (18 children)

    No, eliminating the safe, friction-free option of status quo shows that 4% want to officially seek independence.

    As compared to 1% wanting unification.

    The majority wants to maintain the status quo without moving in either direction. A supermajority wants to maintain the status quo while moving in one direction or the other. But all of their voices are ignored by chauvinistic Westerners who want to ignore what they want and force the issue because that’s what they want

    Who is doing this? Name people actively trying to encourage this.

    with these nonsense excuses like “they only say that because they’re being influenced by the existing material conditions” and “if we ignore 95% of the responses, people actually agree with me.”

    Do you think people answer polls like this with no understanding or regard of actual geopolitical reality, or something? Do you think the reality on the floor is of no relevance to them? Material conditions suddenly have no relevance, do they?

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  • [+] 2 points 8 months ago (18 children)
  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago (17 children)

    Who fucking cares! We’re talking about 4% vs 1%! What about what everybody else wants??

    I also think the drastic difference between "status quo now, independence later" and "status quo now, unification later" also matters heavily too.

    Skavau@piefed.social, for starters.

    Quote me. Quote me where I said they should seek independence right now.

    No, what I think is that actual geopolitical reality is a relevant factor that shouldn’t just be arbitrarily disregarded, as you seem to want. Incorporating material conditions into your poll response is not grounds for it being thrown out, jfc.

    When did I say the poll should be "thrown out"? I'm just giving my reading of it.

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  • [+] 2 points 8 months ago (17 children)
  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (16 children)

    I don’t know. Am I doing that when I say that Taiwan should ideally be an independent state because that’s ultimately what they want?

    Where was that "right now" there?

    When did I say the poll should be “thrown out”? I’m just giving my reading of it.

    How is the way I read a poll means I am trying to tell Taiwan what to do?

    What we can see is that, eliminating the safe, friction-free option of status quo

    See above.

    Also, I'm just a random person. Who of note, or of influence is trying to encourage this?

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  • [+] 2 points 8 months ago (16 children)
  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (15 children)

    Again, I'm giving you my opinion. I'm not saying Taiwan should immediately declare independence (it would be obviously very dangerous for them to do this). I'm just saying that it seems likely to me that if China were to back-off, that Taiwan would very quickly officially declare independence and rebrand.

    And again: I’m just a random person. Who of note, or of influence is trying to encourage this?

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  • [–] -1 points 8 months ago (50 children)

    好啊,统一中国?没问题。。。

    中华民国万岁!民主万岁!

    消灭中共,光复中华!

    😏

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  • [–] 11 points 8 months ago (48 children)

    Your Chinese is ok, but I’m here to practice English.

    And I have to ask, do you actually believe this? Because this is an evil position.

    If the CPC collapses, we already know what happens. It’s been proven before. Economic shock, mass unemployment, pensions wiped out, public assets sold off, and ordinary people paying the price while foreign interests move in. Just like they did to the USSR.

    You’re basically cheering for over a billion people to be pushed into chaos and poverty. That’s a horrifying thing to advocate.

    And honestly, I’m asking partly because too many Chinese Americans do hold views like this from the safety of the US, sometimes in hopes of fitting in. Rooting for suffering back home to score points is cynical and cruel.

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  • [–] 4 points 8 months ago (40 children)

    Check his profile and posting history, he's serious.

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  • [–] 4 points 8 months ago* (38 children)

    He was born in the PRC, not ROC. This is listed right on his profile. Believe it or not, people who emigrate from socialist countries often have extremely right-wing views.

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  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago* (36 children)

    Why not? It's common for people who emigrate from socialist countries to hold far-right views. You're giving him far more credit than he's asking for.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (34 children)

    I agree that it won't happen, but you're running cover for someone expressing far-right views, for seemingly no reason. This isn't the first time you've done this, either.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (32 children)

    Desiring the overthrow of the left-wing government, and the restoration of the far-right nationalist government that was overthrown by the leftists, is a far-right viewpoint. Reject the presuppositions all you like, you're continuing to run interference for right-wingers. This is a pattern from you, you've done this before.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (30 children)

    He directly stated that the Republic of China is the legitimate ruler of all of China, mainland and Taiwan included. When someone directly tells you something, why on Earth are you suspecting them of lying? Further, no, I don't consider anyone who opposes China's, Iran's, or Cuba's government in any way to be far-right. You seem extraordinarily comfortable with inventing views for other people.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (28 children)

    The ROC is a dictatorship of capital, similar to the US, Japan, ROK, etc. He is directly stating that he wants the ROC as the legitimate government of the entire mainland, rather than the socialist system set up and chosen by the mainland itself. You have no evidence of him wanting anything other than what I said, and are simply running interference for another right-winger, calling his expressed views "fantastical." Would you do the same if a Neo-Nazi called for exterminating all Jewish people in the United States, claiming it's "unrealistic" and simply "rage-baiting?"

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago* (26 children)

    Calling for the collapse of socialism in the PRC is absolutely appalling. When the USSR dissolved, there was an estimated 7 million excess deaths due to skyrocketing poverty. Wanting the restoration of capitalism and the destruction of socialist democracy in China is wanting the same to happen to an even greater number of people than were impacted by the dissolution of the USSR.

    Taiwan is not independent. It is neither a fully incorporated territory of the PRC, nor an independent state. Independence implies something new, something the ROC itself does not recognize. The ROC considers itself to be the rightful ruler of the mainland, not an independent state, which is why maintaining the status quo is popular there, as people neither want independence nor to be fully incorporated.

    Can you honestly answer why you run interference for right-wingers?

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago (24 children)

    I think in their head, they imagine a peaceful and quick and painless transition.

    You keep inventing views for people you've never met, and didn't even bother to check his profile to notice that he uses he/him pronouns and was born in the PRC.

    People also call for the collapse of the US government which in reality would bring in a possible violent and poor period just like the collapse of any other mega-state would.

    The major difference here being that people call for revolutionary overthrow of the US Empire, which would save millions of lives globally and would dramatically uplift the living standards of the Statesian working classes. Advocating a return to capitalism and a collapse of socialism in China would have the opposite effect.

    It’s a farce. A gentleman’s agreement that most of the world acknowledges. Taiwan is de facto independent, and only doesn’t aspire towards official international recognition because of not wanting to antagonise China. That’s it.

    Incorrect. Taiwan is de facto not independent, and is in many ways incorporated into the PRC already beyond formal measures. Both de facto and de jure, Taiwan is neither fully independent nor fully incorporated.

    “Maintaining the status quo” is also the far safer option in terms of not upsetting their neighbour. I don’t think the Taiwanese believe that it’s possible to somehow unify with the mainland on any grounds that they would find acceptable, and nor is it possible that they can somehow convert the Chinese mainland into a state that they would likely merge into, or convince them to join Taiwan. So it’s mostly done to keep the peace as the conditions of ‘status quo’ are considered reasonable enough. Most Taiwanese people identify as Taiwanese now, not Chinese. They’ve simply moved on. But China forces them to keep up this charade.

    And in the coming decades, demographics will shift. The US Empire is dying away, and China is rising. The most likely outcome is that the US pulls out of Taiwan and Taiwanese people willingly join with the PRC in the long run, which is why the PRC has no intention to intervene unless provoked.

    Loaded question. Ignored.

    Important question dodged, discussion over.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (22 children)

    The first half of your comment isn't an argument based in logic, which you already refused to do so earlier by saying we are never going to agree on the ROC being a dictatorship of capital.

    Trust me bro. Literally just blatant holding people to entirely different standards that you don’t hold others to.

    You invented my position, again, and made a strawman. This is just plain lying, you lie to protect people calling for the dissolution of socialism and the reinstatement of capitalism, while you lie to pretend I would say socialist revolution in the US would be perfect and nobody would get hurt. I never made such a claim, just that collapse of socialism in China would go similarly to the collapse of socialism went in Russia, while socialist revolution in the US would go similarly to socialist revolutions elsewhere.

    You abstract away "change in system" to ignore the key context of what those systems are and what is to replace them. This is a metaphysical error in analysis and is anti-scientific.

    This is literally just cope and “just trust me bro”, but at least this is as close to an acknowledgement that I can see that you agree that in Taiwan now, the people don’t want to be part of the PRC.

    We can get into the material processes driving the US Empire's decline and the PRC's rise, if you want, but that's a shift from your earlier position of "we will never agree so discussion is worthless." Further, I never said most people in Taiwan want to be further incorporated into the PRC, and you'll notice that nobody has been saying otherwise. I am "admitting" nothing, this is the stance I have always had, because my stances stem from analysis of material processes and contextualization, ie dialectical materialism.

    I will reply all the same. I don’t answer to “When did you stop beating your wife?” type questions.

    Why defend Rimu's racism, and try to pretend PieFed is devoid of political bias in its development? Why defend people calling for the dissolution of socialism in China? Call it whatever you like, these people have in common anti-China views based in right-wing beliefs, and you bat for them relentlessly.

    Anyone can see what you're doing here.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (20 children)

    No, you sit there and nod along when a leftist-type calls for the USA regime to be overthrown and act like its the best thing that could happen and would go absolutely swimmingly, but if someone says the same about China, say it’s awful and that would mean the death and suffering of millions.

    It's extremely simple: my point isn't that changing systems is inherently bad, but that's your core premise. The reason I am confident that socialist revolution in the US Empire would be dramatically positive (not at all free of conflict or struggle, of course) while collapse of socialism in China would be devastating for most people is because I look at history, not just the abstract, metaphysical idea of change being bad.

    For example, when looking at the transition between tsarism and socialism in Russia, we saw a chaotic period of revolution followed by tremendous progress in key life metrics like life expectancy, housing rates, literacy rates, women's rights, and more. It was not perfect, and it did involve violent revolution, but the new system was dramatically progressive and uplifted the people.

    When we look at the dissolution of socialism in Russia, we see skyrocketing poverty rates, increased prostitution, drug abuse, disparity, homelessness, drops in education, life expectancy, and more. Many of these metrics are still behind the soviet union in the modern Russian Federation.

    By looking at historical example, and comparing the general with the particular characteristics in the US Empire and the PRC, I can say which I support and why.

    So that would still mean a lot of suffering in the interim, you know.

    Of course, but this suffering pales in comparison to the tyranny of the present capitalist dictatorship and the constant genocide the US Empire exports. If there was an easy, simple, peaceful option to bring about socialism in the US Empire, I'd take it in a heartbeat. The problem is that there isn't, and I can say so because I study the processes of growth and development, of change, ie dialectical materialism.

    I said we will “never agree” in your framing that every liberal democracy everywhere is a “dictatorship of capital”. You said it regarding the ROC, but you likely view it true of everywhere. That’s terminology rooted in your world view and not based on any kind of common ground.

    It's based on the analysis of how capitalist systems are run. Bourgeois "democracy" cannot truly represent the will of the people, only the will of the ruling class, that class being the capitalists that control the large firms and key industries. This isn't something leftists believe out of dogma, but observed analysis of history and the process of growth and development of society over time.

    I don’t regard what Rimu said as racism.

    That's a self-tell, Rimu spread Heritage Foundation propaganda about "organ harvesting" by the PRC. There's absolutely no credible evidence for this, meaning Rimu believes it due to seeing Chinese people as subhuman. It's the same strategy colonizers used to dehumanize those living in colonies, believing lies about them and seeing them as "savages."

    Moreover, I didn’t even do that. I said that the pure purpose of Piefed wasn’t rooted entirely in politics, nor that different interpretations of how the blocking function should work (as you recall that was the chief point of dispute) had anything to do with Rimu’s political positions.

    My point was that Rimu's views impact the development of PieFed, and thus we need to contextualize PieFed's development with his views. There is no such thing as a process in the abstract, as a static and unrelated thing, instead everything exists in context with everything else. Your rejection of contextualization is anti-scientific.

    Because it’s just an expat making cathartic, and ragebait comments? What should I do, exactly?

    This is the point you made, not the point said ex-pat made. Said ex-pat has deliberately stated that they want socialism to fall and the capitalist ROC to dominate the mainland. To answer your question, you should stop running interference for these kinds of things.

    You regard everyone who isn’t a communist as having right-wing beliefs, so it doesn’t really matter if someone explicitly calls for the Chinese regime to be overthrown or not - you’d still say the same thing if they don’t start from that point.

    Anti-communism is right-wing. I don't consider all non-communists to be right-wing, though, for example anarchists are left-wing. Opposing socialism and wishing for the instatement of capitalism is right-wing, and I can't see how you'd argue otherwise.

    And what am I doing, exactly?

    Running cover for right-wingers that, from our interactions purely, have all had anti-China positions. It seems like you're trying to dance in rhetoric to defend and legitimize those that oppose the PRC and the socialist system it has against any meaningful criticism. I say "dance in rhetoric" because you seem entirely uninterested in talking about the flaws in your analysis, like your metaphysical framing of concepts and your rejection of history having an impact on modern conditions. You see history not as an unfolding process, but as a series of snapshots, and you refuse to engage with my critique of this error whenever I bring it up.

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago (4 children)

    You're very hateful for a third party. The collapse of the PRC that they seemingly "jokingly" called for would be devastating we've seen what happened to the USSR already. When did I call them a traitor that's you putting words in my mouth. And to be able to look through this comment section and say there is no racism against Chinese people is genuinely astounding. Maybe it's because you agree with the racists.

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  • [–] 4 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    If the USSR didn't fall hundreds of thousands of women and children would have been saved from being pushed into prostitution and trafficking, millions would have avoid being plunged into morbid poverty, life expectancy wouldn't have fallen by nearly 10 years due to the brutal conditions of capitalist shock therapy, there would be no war in Ukraine killing the sons of Russia and Ukraine by the thousand, the socialist block would still be together and would have enough strength that militant resistance against the omnicidal American empire would be more than just a pleasant thought for the future.

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  • [–] 6 points 8 months ago

    Real "the south will rise again!" energy here. The KMT was kicked out of the mainland precisely because the people of China supported the CPC, which is why today over 90% of Chinese citizens support their government. The mainland would be devastated by the collapse of socialism, with over 1 billion people being thrown into poverty. The White Terror wasn't exactly "democratic," when the KMT took over Taiwan and slaughtered thousands that resisted the new dictatorship.

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