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[–] 203 points 8 months ago* (97 children)

Nobody wants my info dump. I know way too much about networking and computers. The topics are massively deep, like iceberg levels of deep. One for each topic.

I could lecture for an entire day on the nuance and considerations of picking a Wi-Fi channel, or you can ignore me and just hit "auto" which may or may not take some, or all, of my considerations into account when selecting a channel.

If anyone is keen to hear some generally good advice about home networking, here's my elevator speech:

Wire when you can, wireless when you have to. Wi-Fi is shared and half duplex, every wired connection is exclusive to the device and full duplex. If you can't Ethernet, use MoCA, or powerline (depending on what internal power structures you have, this can be excellent or unusable, keep your receipts). Mesh is best with a dedicated backhaul, better with a wired backhaul. Demand it from any system you consider. The latest and greatest Wi-Fi technology probably won't fix whatever problem you're having, it will only temporarily reduce the symptoms and you won't notice it for a while. Be weary about upgrading and ask yourself why you require the upgrade. Newer wireless won't fix bad signal, or dropouts.

For everything else, Google. That's how I find most of the information I know.

Good luck.

I'll be around in case anyone has questions. No promises on when I'll be able to reply tho.

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  • [–] 33 points 8 months ago (3 children)

    5 or 6Ghz backhaul on the mesh?

    Should I buy consumer or small business hardware?

    Recommended brand(s)?

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  • [–] 29 points 8 months ago* (2 children)

    High end consumer aka prosumer, which is only really one brand, ubiquiti. Specifically their unifi stuff.

    Or used mid range business stuff, Cisco, Aruba, juniper. The pinch here is that you usually need specialized knowledge to configure this class of device. I've also used Cisco, watchguard, Fortinet, Sophos, sonicwall, and probably others for firewalls. I prefer Sonicwall for some very specific reasons about how they structure their configuration, but for anyone who isn't a certified sonicwall tech, I'd point at Sophos. Their stuff seems to be a fair balance of configurability and user friendliness. If you're instant on new business stuff and you have the money for it, Sophos for the firewall, Aruba instanton for switching and Wi-Fi.

    The benefit to unifi is user friendliness and a unified control console. If you're not an IT professional or a similar technical job, unifi will provide plenty of what you need and leave out the unnecessary knobs that needs like me want to see.

    Be prepared to spend several hundred on the networking if you're going to do it right, there are some places you can trim some costs, but before you nope it from sticker shock, consider how much you spend per year on Internet service, and then consider how much the router/firewall + switch + access points are in comparison... And those are things you don't need to buy every year.

    Edit: I forgot to mention the backhaul. The decision will depend on the wireless environment. You might be able to save some cash having 5ghz backhaul, but it's going to struggle in dense environments, so consider spending some extra on 6ghz if you're in a medium to high density housing situation. Good luck

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  • [–] 15 points 8 months ago (12 children)

    Tell Me everything you want about MAC addresses

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  • [–] 28 points 8 months ago (11 children)

    Is this a kink?

    The first six hexadecimal digits of the Mac address are referred to as the oui, or organizationally unique identifier. They are supposed to all be registered, but with modern systems, mac address randomization is common, so the Mac address in use can be little better than nonsense.

    I have a theory that some of the more budget oriented manufacturers (think Ali express), just don't bother using a registered mac address at all.

    This all makes my job harder as a network admin, I usually need to look up what a device is by mac address to help identify what it is and what it's doing. I need to make sure everything is on the right network, and I can't do that if I don't know what anything is.

    The last six hexadecimal digits of the Mac are simply to uniquely identify the interface that the Mac is burned into. This also means that any systems with multiple network ports, have different mac address on each port. Some things are exempt, like network switches, but for the most part, every interface has, or is supposed to have, a unique mac address.

    Also, the mac isn't hex, it's binary. Hex is just how we've decided to present it to users. The switches, routers, and interfaces don't work with the hex, only the binary. Same for IP addresses, which normal are shown in "dotted decimal notation", but are just binary. But you didn't ask about IP.

    Did you need me to whisper ouis into your ear and you can guess what company is registered to that oui?

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  • [–] 7 points 8 months ago (6 children)

    So if you plug the same device into a different network using the same port, it's the same MAC?

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  • [–] 8 points 8 months ago (4 children)

    The device mac doesn't change unless mac randomization is on.

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  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago (3 children)

    I hate that, as far as I know, on Android you can't choose the "randomized" MAC

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  • [–] 4 points 8 months ago

    The MAC, at least as it was conceptualised (as they said, MAC randomisation etc. mess with this), is a unique identifier for that specific device. It doesn't change, and only one device has that specific MAC.

    Or more specifically, that specific network adaptor, the hardware responsible for connecting to networks. So one computer might have multiple MACs if, for example, it has an Ethernet port and a wifi card.

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  • [–] 14 points 8 months ago (7 children)

    Thanks a lot for sharing you experience! I recently saw some people I follow on youtube talk about fibre as an alternative for ethernet cables, do you have an any experience with that?

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  • [–] 19 points 8 months ago (3 children)

    Alternative? Sure. Though why?

    If ethernet works, you're just using a more expensive option to go with fiber.

    Unless you need something unique about fiber, like distance (which can still be dubious for consumer grade hardware), or a non-electrical based signal (dubious requirement in most cases), then you're just throwing money at being able to say you use fiber.

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  • [–] 5 points 8 months ago

    Yes. Fiber is great but extremely nuanced. SMF, MMF, UPC, APC, OM3, OM4, OS2.... All different parts of just the cabling... Not to mention the connectors, LC, SC.... You get the idea.

    Everyone I tend to talk to about it seem to think multi-mode is cheaper, and it can be, but in my experience, single mode is usually the better choice and usually not much of a price uplift if you're buying from a good company. Look at FS.com and do some comparison shopping against them. They make some high quality stuff, and it's at pretty incredible pricing for what you get, but the equipment can add up fast.

    Multi mode can only really carry one connection per fiber and usually needs to be duplexed (two strands per link) while single mode can leverage WDM to carry multiple independent signals on different wavelengths. This can be leveraged for bi-directional single strand links, multiple links that are aggregated into a single connection in hardware (this is how 40Gbit works, it's actually 4x10G connections on different wavelengths)....

    It's still more costly and requires more specialized equipment and training to work with, compared to copper Ethernet, so it's pretty uncommon to see in residential or home networks.

    YMMV. Good luck.

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  • [–] 9 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (15 children)

    I wired my house with cat6 when I moved in. The overall setup looks like 10G fiber to the house -> 2.5G capable router -> 2.5G capable NAS running *arr stack. Also off the router is a single cat6 run downstairs -> 8 port 1G unmanaged switch, which is connected to my desktop, work dock, parters dock, TV, and backhaul run to the back of house wifi extender. The desktop, both docks and wifi extender are 2.5G capable. The TV is 100M. This has been extremely reliable. I plan on upgrading the switch to a 10g capable one at some point, and then the router. Since the switch is unmanaged, is there a good way to know when it is the limiting factor and I should update it?

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago (5 children)

    Support for older/slower connections does get dropped sometimes. I’ve seen devices that are 100/1000 only, and I had a fiber->ethernet box that only supported 1G/10G one one port, and 10/100/1000 on the other.

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago (3 children)

    If the two sides don’t have a common speed, then it just doesn’t work.

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    Oh damn, really? So do normal home routers have to support basically every possible speed? Because I don't think I've ever encountered or heard of someone encountering a failure due to a speed mismatch.

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    Basically, yes, but there are only three speeds in common use. 10/100/1000M will be enough to support for basically every consumer device out there. 2.5G is starting to become common in routers and some desktop or high end docks, and 10G is starting to show up in high end prosumer devices, but they can usually also support at least 100/1000M. There isn’t much 10M gear still out there except in very specific industrial applications. Really, if your router supports 100/1000 it will cover 99% of the devices in the wild.

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago

    Oh very interesting. Thanks for being so patient! I had no idea about this. I always just assumed that if a device said it supported 100M, that necessarily meant that if you connect a 10M device up to it, it'll automatically take the lower speed. Like a car with a max speed of 10 can go on a road with a speed limit of 100...it'll just be limited to 10. I didn't realise it had to sync up like that.

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    An unmanned switch? Nothing concrete.

    A managed switch can give you telemetry, like port utilisation, and you can observe how much upstream is in use.

    My concern is that you have a 1g switch connecting 2.5g capable devices to a 2.5g capable upstream network. That's a bottleneck that I would want to eliminate. I know serve the home has a roundup of 2.5g switches that might be useful for you. I'm not saying you should switch to managed either, you may be well served by an unmanaged switch, and it will save you money. The telemetry for managed switches usually requires a system to collect and store it, usually an NMS, or network monitoring/management system.

    Some manufacturers build NMS style telemetry into their products, ubiquiti does this to a limited extent. Other vendors may be better or have nothing at all. Something to think about when picking gear, if you like that sort of visibility. NMS usually operates over SNMP, which can become a whole thing; but for monitoring, setting up read only SNMP can be rather easy.

    A word of caution. 10G and 2.5/5G were developed independently, and 10G came first. It was expensive which is why 2.5/5g Ethernet became a thing. Because of this checkered past, there's a lot of 10G equipment that will not support operating at 2.5 or 5gbps. So if you get a 10G switch, check if there's 2.5G, or 5G capability separately, or included on the 10G ports.

    In my experience, most 10G ports are 1 or 10G, with nothing in between. Most 2.5G ports can't do 10G. So the best idea would be to have a switch with a couple of 10G for fast uplinks and some 2.5G connections for your devices. Unless you can find a unicorn of a switch that supports all speeds on all ports, a switch split between 2.5G and 10G ports is probably your best bet.

    Good luck.

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  • [–] 8 points 8 months ago (4 children)

    The elevator pitch is wonderful and I'm glad to be following your recommendations already. Wired everything is not practical for me without drilling through the floor, so a mesh router with dedicated backhaul and a wired connection to the downstairs node is working like a charm.

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  • [–] 5 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    They mentioned MoCa. If you have cable (like for the tv) you can probably use MoCa. It's fantastic.

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  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago

    And if you can't use MoCa - say, bc the cable installers cut all the other coax cords on the house (true story!) - you can also consider powerline adapters to send Ethernet over your electrical wiring. It's a crapshoot depending on the quality of your wiring but I can usually get at least the same speed as my wifi with it.

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  • [–] 4 points 8 months ago

    Awesome. That's good to hear.

    I know not everyone can run Ethernet. Whether it's because you're in a rental, or you simply don't have the budget for it, the reason doesn't matter all that much. There's plenty of good reasons not to.

    Usually mesh nodes have Ethernet on them as well and it just bridges into the LAN. Using that can actually cut down on wireless traffic overall. Maybe something to look at which could help if you have any troubles.

    Good luck friend.

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  • [–] 6 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    I've been switching a lot of my devices to ESP-NOW instead of WiFi so that they can just fart out their data to anyone who can hear it and then go back to sleep, no connecting or handshaking or authenticating or overhead. Should clear up my wifi network I think.

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  • [–] 5 points 8 months ago

    If I'm not mistaken, they still use 2.4 GHz, which is also used by wifi, Bluetooth, ZigBee, a bunch of other stuff.... Microwave ovens.....

    And anything operating on a frequency, regardless of protocol, will interfere with eachother. I think the main benefit for you would be the brief amount of active time, could reduce the airtime being used by the devices.

    I hope it works out for you and your wifi works excellently. Just be aware that it could still interfere. Use 5ghz when possible.

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  • [–] 5 points 8 months ago (7 children)

    Sorry, I know there was more, but all wireless is half-duplex!? I never knew...

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  • [–] 12 points 8 months ago (6 children)

    It's a single frequency for all people, including those that are on the same or adjacent/overlapping channels. If you ever used walkie talkies, they don't work so well when more than one person is talking.

    Same idea.

    Wi-Fi 7 is introducing multi link, which could improve the duplex operation, but it's far from perfect. Even if you use one channel for download and one for upload, you're still competing with everyone else on the channel - whether they're connected to your network or not. They can still interfere with you if you're on the same channel but different networks.

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  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago

    I see what you're saying and this is a good inquiry. The reality is that most networks are what we call North/South traffic exclusive. In this context, we use "North" to describe towards the Internet, "South" to be from the Internet, and east/west to be LAN to LAN traffic.

    Networks that are primarily or exclusively North South, your contention will always be your ISPs committed speed (the speed they're allowing you to use). So most of what's South of that is pretty trivial, as long as it can keep up with, or exceed the speed of the North connection.

    That changes if you do any East/West traffic. Whether that's a home lab, a home server, or even just a NAS, or computer to computer file sharing.... Once that traffic is more than a trivial amount of the network traffic, then you see a lot of benefit from wired connections to your computers. The switch backplane can handle a lot more bandwidth than any individual port, and the only way you'll see that bandwidth is if some traffic is going somewhere other than your router, or the Internet.

    To say most home networks are North/South heavy is obvious. Business networks frequently have servers and other LAN resources that are frequently utilized. So East/West traffic is usually non-trivial.

    To spin an example, if your ISP is providing a 100mbps committed rate, and you gave full gigabit ethernet inside and at least 802.11ac wireless, with almost all traffic going to the Internet and back, you're going to see little difference between Wi-Fi and Ethernet. The only major change moving from Wi-Fi to Ethernet is that your ping time will be more consistent and lower overall. It won't be a huge change, something in the range of 10s of ms, but it's literally the only thing you'll notice a difference with.

    Another example where it will make a big difference is if you have a NAS or home server, where you have files stored. Compared to a file storage service like drop box or Google drive. The LAN specific traffic will move at line rate, or the speed of whatever storage the data ultimately rests on, whichever is slower. In that context, the East/West traffic benefits greatly from Ethernet, and the full duplex connection between the two devices.

    It's all subjective to how you are using your network. You've made a good point, so thanks for that. Have a good day.

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  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    I suppose, but I usually don't check my messages on Lemmy very often, I look at my comment replies, but not my messages. I should have Matrix connected, if you use that... I have no idea if I set up Matrix right, or if I linked it correctly... I haven't looked at it since I did the setup.

    I'm curious why you would want to DM rather than discuss it publicly where the information might help others?

    You don't need to justify yourself to me. That question is intended for you to answer it for yourself, and if that doesn't change that you would rather do the discussion over DM, then I won't hold that against you.

    Be well.

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    Just adding my 2p, when it comes to cabling, unless you have a specific need (or anticipate one) for a specific connection to need more than 1gbps, CAT5e is plenty good enough for 99% of domestic usage. CAT6 maybe a good idea to anticipate future demands going up dramatically on your home network but anything more is just exponentially more expensive overkill.

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  • [–] 4 points 8 months ago

    I always recommend Cat6, mainly because it can carry 10G up to 55m, which is basically your entire house, unless you live in a mansion or something.

    10G might work on 5e, but it won't be reliable.

    Even if you're not planning to go for 10G any time soon, do yourself a favor and run Cat6. In 5 or 10 years when you want 10G for any reason, you can just upgrade the equipment on both ends and it will just work.

    The cost difference isn't significant enough for cat5e to make any sense for new installs.

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  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago (3 children)

    The general rule I've read for wifi is to use channels 1,6 and 11 for 2.4 GHz as those do not interfere with each other. So I use a wifi scanner on my phone at the furthest point in my home from the router and check which is the least busy from the surrounding neighbors. Do you think that's a good technique to use?

    For 5GHz, I try to pick between 36,48,149,161 and pick by the same rules as above. I also keep my channel size at 20Mhz for both.

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  • [–] 4 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    There's some nuance with 5ghz, let's talk 2.4 GHz first.

    You've heard correctly, 1, 6, and 11 are the "non overlapping" channels, if anyone is on, say, channel 9, then everyone on 6 and 11 are going to have a bad time. But this is entirely based on everyone using 20mhz wide channels. Anyone using 40mhz wide channels are just going to fuck up the airspace. 40mhz wide channels basically occupy two of the three non-overlapping channels on 2.4ghz. never use 40mhz wide on 2.4 GHz. IMO, it shouldn't have ever been an option.

    5ghz is a UNII band, and there's three, technically four or five, main sections of the band that are relevant UNIi 1 is the low end of 5ghz, I don't have the channel numbers off the top of my head, but I know it ends at or around channel 90 or so? I'm tired and I've been ill today, so please forgive me. Some of the specifics are slipping away right now and I don't have the brain power to cross reference it. You can look all this up anyways.

    UNII 1 is pretty typical, very similar to how 2.4 GHz works, just on a different band.

    I'll circle back on UNII 2

    UNII 3 is the high part of the band and the only nuance here is that the 5.8 GHz ISM channels overlap with a lot of this, so any consumer electronics like cordless phones that use 5.8 GHz, might cause problems with some of these channels. Use of the ISM band here has been on the decline for a while, so it's probably not an issue, but something to be mindful of.

    UNII 2 is a whole thing. You'll need to look up what is allowed for your country, but some channels are off limits and this band actually interferes with radar operations, so anything operating UNII 2 channels needs to have radar avoidance built in. That's pretty much automatic, or it should be. The key take away with these channels is that you need to let the system pick the channel or will use in the band, so that it can change the channel to avoid radar if needed. Setting a static channel on your Wi-Fi in the UNII 2 band might land you in hot water.

    Some 5ghz channels can only be used indoors, some can only be used in specific countries, so look it up for your situation. Wikipedia has a comprehensive article on it, and I would encourage you to familiarize yourself with it.

    6ghz regulation is starting to settle down but it's looking to be a bit more open and consistent between countries which would be a nice change.

    Also, there are different power restrictions on different channels, don't worry yourself too much with that since most consumer access points and Wi-Fi routers don't push enough power to exceed even the lowest restriction.

    Feel free to move to 40mhz for 5ghz, there's a lot more channels and 40mhz wide can really enhance your speeds. Stick to 20 for 2.4 GHz; but don't feel limited for 5 or 6ghz.

    Your methodology is good. But please understand that the graphs are an estimation, a real waterfall examination with an SDR that's capable of observing the channel would be the only way to really know what's happening in the airspace. Generally that's overkill for residential installations. Just bear in mind, those scanner apps will only show other Wi-Fi networks. Non-Wi-Fi interference will not be shown. Don't hesitate to try a different channel if one isn't working great for you. Might just be alien interference (in this context, alien means non-Wi-Fi).

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago

    So, in my case, I had a modem router model by a company called SmartRG. Details aside, I pretty much instantly put it into bridged mode so it wouldn't participate in the IP routing. That modem did modem things only.

    The connection went from provider phone line to SmartRG to my firewall.

    I was weird and got a set of WAN IP addresses, so I put a router in front of everything to handle that, so the connection went from provider line, to modem, to router, to firewall.

    It's not super relevant, but the router I was using was a Cisco 1911. This is a semi modular enterprise router. The modular part, which will be important later, is in the form of "WIC" modules, or "WAN Interface Card" modules. The 1911 has two.

    Anyways, I managed to get a WIC that supported VDSL2 with all the options and configuration that my ISP used. Happened to be the ehwic-va-dsl-m. Long story short, this module would integrate with my router and act as a modem of sorts to "translate" to the provider line. When I implemented this, I basically threw out my SmartRG. The phone line went directly into my router. So the connection was from the provider line, into my router, then to my firewall.

    So the modem was "deleted".

    Another instance was for a fiber GPON line. The provider in this case, gave you a modem with a GPON connection, but they didn't really tell anyone that the GPON interface was just a plain old SFP transceiver. So I pulled the SFP, put it into the firewall and threw out the modem. The provider line went right into their module in my firewall. The modem was effectively "deleted"

    The idea of a modem delete is to remove whatever standalone device the provider has converting their signal (DSL, cable, or fiber) into Ethernet, and effectively plug that into your gateway.

    It's not always possible.

    I'm currently looking for an option to do a modem delete for a local ISP that's switched to xgs-pon. They put out a modem router for it that has the transceiver built in, so there's no way to extract it and plug it into something else.

    I'm hopeful I'll find a SFP+ module like I found for the GPON ISP in my area.

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago (3 children)

    Sorry this took me a bit to get to. Hello!

    I'm hoping that not all of that is running on a single pi. I mean, it can, but you might hit limitations when everything is engaged with doing things. I just feel like, that's a lot for one raspberry Pi.....

    Anyways, iptables are good to have a general grasp of, but they're generally GNU/Linux specific. There's other routing implementations that run on Linux, and hardware appliances generally have their own bespoke, vendor specific stuff. One project I'm aware of is free range routing. There's a lot more, but this is one that I know of. Using FRR, vs iptables, they're very different beasts. But you shouldn't need FRR, it's a monster in terms of memory use and designed to operate in ISP class networks. You don't need it. I'm just using it as an example of what is out there.

    The best advice I can give about this is that learning the concepts behind routing is more valuable than any specific product. Knowing the difference between an RIB and FIB, and how to structure routes, priorities, costs, etc... All very important. Can you learn that with iptables? Sure, and probably more, since iptables can also function as a low end firewall.

    The important thing is that you learn the meaning behind what you're doing in whatever routing platform you are working with.

    I've worked with so many different ways of handling routing and firewall work that I get annoyed when vendors come up with dumb marketing terms that leak into the device user interface, for a very common routing, firewall, or VPN technology. I don't care whether I'm on a router or firewall that's custom and running open WRT, ddwrt, opnsense, or one from Cisco, Sonic wall, watchguard, Fortinet, Palo Alto, or any of the dozens of other vendors. A VPN is a VPN. IKE and IPsec don't change because it's vendor x or y. Don't start calling the IKE identifier something else.

    .... Sorry, rant.

    Anyways, I don't really see the vendor's interface as anything more than a code I have to convert into the industry standard protocol information that everyone uses. It's a filter by which that vendor portrays the same options that everything else has. Some have quirks. Some are more straight forward. But they all have the same options in the end. Allow the traffic or don't, do it by port and protocol or by IP. Apply content filters or don't, use Ethernet, DHCP, pppoe, or something else like ATM or ipx/SPX for signaling. Who cares.

    If you understand the concepts, the skills are transferable, no matter what platform you end up using, you'll know what needs to be done, you'll just be stuck figuring out how you do it on this platform.

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    I dunno if they still offer it, but I found that Cisco's ICND1 was fairly neutral. They use examples from Cisco stuff, naturally, but the majority of the content is around learning and understanding how IP networks function. This is the first half of the CCNA study materials, and honestly, one of the best resources I had, and used, for learning how it all works.

    There's probably a ton more out there now, but at the time when I was learning, it was all CBT Nuggets and pluralsight.... I believe a lot has hit YouTube in recent years.

    Don't worry if the information is out of date, this stuff doesn't change. The updated stuff just has newer vendor specific information, and IPv6.

    IPv6 isn't crazy different in how it behaves, but the mechanisms for local discovery, IP assignment, and whatnot, can vary quite extensively.

    Good luck out there

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