Dbzero Governance Vote Post https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/63525728

Ahoy mateys!

A few of our users have recently pointed out that a lot of the pro-Zionist accounts on the fediverse nowadays seem to come from the feddit.org instance.

But whatever the excuse happens to be, they need to do better imo. Israel is currently the most violent, fascist and genocidal nation state in the Middle East (if you exclude the US military bases there). And yet feddit.org seems to regard the Palestinians fighting against Israel’s ongoing illegal occupation of their land as the real terrorists. ....

More context

Our instance already voted to ban pro-Zionist accounts (see https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/60585441 for reference) and the rule that was implemented is here: Golden Rule #8.

As further context, you can find relevant comments and discussion in this post by a banned feddit admin in MoG (that fact they chose to post in MoG is in itself quite telling), and this post about their defederation from quokk.au over anti-semitism allegations has recently become active again. ...

Note 2: If you think feddit.org deserves a full instance ban instead, or have alternative suggestions, then please leave your comments below. If enough people think that’s the better option, then we’ll do that instead.

In the end the Post had around 70% of support by dbzer0 users, who in the comments also called for defederation.

Here is a Link to Dbzer0 instances tab https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/instances where if you go to blocked instances you can see fedddit.org is now defederated

i dont think feddit has made a post now, but when they do i will add it

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[–] 74 points 8 months ago (56 children)

I can't think of any "leftist organisations" that support Zionism ? Maybe you're confusing fascist with leftist ?

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  • [+] -22 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (55 children)

    I mean "leftist organization" is a weird term and I would more speak of currents. And there is definitely the Antideutsche or Anti-Germans.

    The German left, at least the loud one, is publically dividing between this topic. On demonstration you see a lot of people openly supporting Hamas, wearing the red triangle etc. For me it is only natural to fight this form of anti semitism. That makes you a "Zionist" on Lemmy, as there is often only "anti genocide and pro genocide" in online discussions. But the world is very complex and there is a large continuum between Islamic and Jewish ethno state philosophy.

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  • [–] 50 points 8 months ago (21 children)

    Hemming and hawing over genocide is disgusting.

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  • [–] 31 points 8 months ago (20 children)

    Seriously, imagine typing "there is often only 'anti genocide and pro genocide' in online discussions" and thinking "yes, I will post this and look like a very good and moral person". Yes, if you're not against genocide you're for genocide. Yes, if you think supporting the resistance to genocide is antisemitic, you are a genocidal zionist. This type of "nuanced" "anti-zionism" (liberal zionism) is also widespread on feddit.org.

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  • [–] 15 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    By fucking german law at that. And they enforce it too. Never again, as defined by nihlists with no soul serving the plutocracy while the far right takes their country from them and fixes elections while they are busy surrendering their people to tech.

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  • [–] -1 points 8 months ago (17 children)

    What I think they meant was that people here only think about the genocide and thus declare the perpetrators evil (which they are) and the victims the good guys (hamas are not).

    One side's atrocities don't justify the other side's. Excusing your own group's actions because they're the good guys is far right thinking.

    In reality there's more factors to this than just the genocide, and both hamas and israel are the bad guys in their own way. One is just worse than the other, but that doesn't make the other good.

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  • [–] 11 points 8 months ago* (16 children)

    declare the perpetrators evil (which they are)

    Correct.

    and the victims the good guys (hamas are not)

    You're wrong, Hamas are in fact "the good guys" in this conflict. The resistance to the genocidal settler state are good even if they don't measure up to whatever arbitrary standard of perfection you have in mind.

    One side’s atrocities don’t justify the other side’s. Excusing your own group’s actions because they’re the good guys is far right thinking.

    Bullshit framing designed to try to equate between the invading settler state (with overwhelming firepower) and the (often barely adult) native resistance just trying to survive and protect their homes.

    In reality there’s more factors to this than just the genocide, and both hamas and israel are the bad guys in their own way. One is just worse than the other, but that doesn’t make the other good.

    "Hemming and hawing over genocide is disgusting."

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  • [–] 4 points 8 months ago (9 children)

    You’re wrong, Hamas are in fact “the good guys” in this conflict.

    The world will be better when humans will be able to escape this manichean thinking.

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  • [–] 13 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    Resistance to genocide is the correct position to take.

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  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    "Hemming and hawing over genocide is disgusting."

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  • [–] 0 points 8 months ago* (4 children)

    You’re wrong, Hamas are in fact “the good guys” in this conflict.

    Wow. Well, thanks for openly admitting that one.

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  • [–] 0 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    What do you want, .ml tankies are what .ml tankies are.

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  • [–] 30 points 8 months ago (4 children)

    Saying Hamas is antisemitic is sure fire sign of being a Zionist.

    Palestinians are a semitic people.

    If you want to saw that Hamas hates Jews, well, when your entire life has been being bombed by planes with stars of David on them, while jackbooted thugs with stars of David on their shoulder kick in your door to kidnap your family members in the night, and settlers with star of David necklaces show up and claim your home and land by divine right, I can start to see where you develop feelings toward the people who carry the same sign.

    Maybe, just maybe, if Israel wanted the world to be a safer place for Jews they would stop associating a genocide with Judaisim as they are so fucking desperate to do.

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  • [–] 28 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    Maybe, just maybe, if Israel wanted the world to be a safer place for Jews they would stop associating a genocide with Judaisim

    You probably already know this, but Israel wants the world to be a more dangerous place for Jews to justify Israel's illegitimate existence and aggression. That's why they conducted terrorist attacks against Ethiopian Jews, to convince them that they needed to move to Israel as it's the only safe place for them... where they're then met by deep-rooted racism.

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  • [+] -7 points 8 months ago* (1 child)

    Antisemitic clearly means anti-Jewish. Sure it technically means all Semitic people, and as such a better word could have been used so long ago, but it's intended and in use meaning today is very clearly defined. Jewish people have been some of the biggest victims of Middle Eastern and European hate for thousands of years.

    You're doing the #AllLivesMatter of religious hate.

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  • Islamophobia is much more prevalent in the west than antijudaism. There is islamophobia on a systemic level. And lets not pretend that it's directed only at muslims but arabs in general. Crying "antisemitism!!" about an indigenous armed resistance movement is the #alllivesmatter of this conflict.

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  • [–] 11 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

    No. The majority of Israelis are Ashkenazi Jews from Europe. They are European settler-colonists on occupied land.

    Edit to add: I took a peak at your modlog; it’s filled with fascist brainworms.

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  • [–] 14 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

    Spoken like someone that condemned the ANC as terrorists in the 80's.

    "Sure, apartheid is wrong, but the people suffering it and fighting it are the worst" <--- you.

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  • [–] 11 points 8 months ago

    ask an anti german what they think of muslims in the middle east :) it'll be the most misanthropic thing you heard all day. anti germans are disgusting zionists and need to be shunned from leftist places. they are pro-genocide and there is no nuance to it. they are not part of the left, just delusional cosplayers

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  • [–] 15 points 8 months ago*

    The German left, at least the loud one, is public ally dividing between this topic. On demonstration you see a lot of people openly supporting Hamas, wearing the red triangle etc. For me it is only natural to fight this form of anti semitism. That makes you a “Zionist” on Lemmy, as there is often only “anti genocide and pro genocide” in online discussions. But the world is very complex and there is a large continuum between Islamic and Jewish ethno state philosophy.

    This is all nonsense and you are indeed a zionist. Thank you for making it clear to everyone.

    That makes you a “Zionist” on Lemmy, as there is often only “anti genocide and pro genocide” in online discussions.

    Thank you again for clarifying which side you are on.

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  • [–] 12 points 8 months ago* (19 children)

    It does not make you a Zionist on Lemmy. You are a Zionist in real life.

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  • [+] -8 points 8 months ago (18 children)

    "Opposing Hamas makes you a Zionist", can you confirm that statement?

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  • [–] 18 points 8 months ago* (16 children)

    You said supporting Hamas is antisemitic. Why are you crawling back to the word Zionism now?

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  • [+] -6 points 8 months ago (15 children)

    Me

    [...] people openly supporting Hamas, wearing the red triangle etc. For me it is only natural to fight this form of anti semitism. That makes you a "Zionist" on Lemmy [...]

    You

    It does not make you a Zionist on Lemmy. You are a Zionist in real life.

    Again you

    You said supporting Hamas is antisemitic. Why are you crawling back to the word Zionism now?

    Me
    ???

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  • [–] 23 points 8 months ago* (14 children)

    people openly supporting Hamas, wearing the red triangle etc. For me it is only natural to fight this form of anti semitism

    This is a Zionist defense of Israel by conflating antisemitism with anti-Zionism.

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  • [–] 13 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

    I think they're German, conflating antisemitism with anti-zionism is their favorite excuse for why this genocide will finally be the good one.

    Henry Morgenthau Apology Form. To: Henry Morgenthau. From: Blank. Date: Blank. 6 checkboxs are shown with text besides them: "The media convinced me Germans could be trusted with a state." "I didn't watch the actual war." "I miss the Kingdom of Prussia." "I don't know how much Germans love genocide." "I was jealous of Soviet influnce gains." "Mercury was in retrograde." A checkbox with the text "I will hereby respect Henry Morgenthau and I will NOT talk down on the future first-ballot Hall Of Famer."

    Sadly, this meme remains ever relevant.

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  • [+] -9 points 8 months ago (12 children)

    I see where you are going. Well, how anti Zionism and antisemitism are interconnected is subject to the current scientific debate and I won't start a fundamental discussion on this topic with you. What is important for me in the end is, that I am standing against the left that is openly sympathizing with the Hamas.

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  • [–] 14 points 8 months ago* (3 children)
  • [+] -8 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    If you don't want to engage in a civil discussion, that's alright with me. But if you run out of arguments, just stop commenting?

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  • [–] 7 points 8 months ago*

    People that want a civil discussion on the merits of a philosophy whose base principle is at best ethnic cleansing don't deserve one.

    You're like a white northerner demanding a civil discussion on the merits of slavery to a black person in the underground railroad.

    Your position is just as disgusting and ludicrous.

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  • [–] 4 points 8 months ago* (6 children)

    The modern left-right discourse is just so confusing to me.

    I've seen authoritarians, supporters of war crimes, and support for terrorism and cruelty, all claimed as leftist positions. I can't reconcile them with what I thought left-wing values were about.

    I really think we need something with more dimensions to be popularized. The left-right system is just so loaded at this point. I personally can't identify with either side at all.

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  • [–] 6 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    For clarity, stethoscope theory is bullshit based on vibes. Communists support collectivizing production and distribution, and support states where the working classes are in charge, including their right to build up defensive mechanisms to protect the gains of socialism. This is entirely incompatible with the right-wing, who seek to maintain the dominion of capitalism.

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  • [–] 0 points 8 months ago*

    as you recognized, this is a 2 coordinate system, and the split is between left-libertarian and left-authoritarian. your confusion lets me take a guess and say you sit in the US, where the libertarian/authoritaran axis has been compressed by the 2-party system, which is like putting too many cats at once in a small box - you get infighting, at least on the left; the right has the same, but the infighting between right-authoritarians(fascists) and left-auths(tankies) takes backseat. while the libertarian part is discussing in what type of society they want to live, the authoritarian part is primarily occupied with securing power, mostly followed by internal purges.

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  • [–] 4 points 8 months ago*

    Yes, opposing the main resistance to zionism makes you a zionist. Glad we all understand each other.

    Edit: not that you'll see this, I can see piefed.social dropping my replies to you because you have me (or maybe my instance) blocked.

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  • [–] 0 points 8 months ago

    Don't be discouraged. Personally I don't have the energy any more to endure the abuse of the mob (these "leftist" ignoramuses whose obsession with "Zionism" leads them to support literal fascism) but it's important that somebody makes the points you're making.

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