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[–] 54 points 4 months ago

Depends on your morals.

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  • [–] 13 points 4 months ago

    If it's possible and you're capable to do it, then I think it's a moral choice.

    If it's a matter of survival, health or inaccess to a variety of food, I don't think it really is a choice one should have to make on grounds of morality.

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  • [+] 9 points 4 months ago (2 children)
  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (1 child)

    I generally agree with you, however your argument does add some subjectivity to the maybe and no sections. I'd add that while not every situation can accommodate a vegan or vegetarian lifestyle, in 2026 the vast majority of people have the capability to change to a non-meat diet without any detriment to their health or lifestyle besides social ostracism of unaccepting peers depending on where they live.

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  • [–] 8 points 4 months ago

    Yeah I think so probably. The animal product industry seems pretty messed up. Very un-cool what we do to them. Inefficient too but that's another argument.

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  • [–] 13 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (9 children)

    Overall, most humans agree that it is morally wrong to make other creatures suffer. Eating meat, or dairy, definitely leads to animal suffering (it actual leads to human suffering too).

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  • [+] -10 points 4 months ago (7 children)

    So you believe plants or fungi don’t suffer when you eat them?

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  • [–] 11 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (5 children)

    There is indeed a very small scientific community that has some (very preliminary) research done on a “nervous system” in plants. The wood-wide-web is part of those hypothesis. It is very intriguing, but reading the interviews with these scientists and their publications didn’t leave me with the impression that plants feel emotions, or that they think, are cognitive or learn from pain. Do you have scientific data to proof otherwise?

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  • [+] -14 points 4 months ago (4 children)

    Of course not. But nobody has evidence that cows think or have emotions beyond physical sensations either.

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  • [–] 6 points 4 months ago
    [–] 3 points 4 months ago

    probably not.

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  • [–] 10 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    Is it morally wrong to ask a bait question on a public forum?

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  • [–] [S] -2 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    It's bait if it makes me angry

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 child)

    I guess you're not going to bait stickly into examining the consequences their choices have on others who are powerless to protect themselves from those consequences. He's too clever for that kind of bait.

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  • [–] 7 points 4 months ago (6 children)

    Is it not morally wrong to drink the milk of an animal that was forcibly impregnated and whose child was murdered for said milk? Why stop at vegetarianism?

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  • [+] -1 points 4 months ago (6 children)
  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago* (5 children)

    It's not clear here if you think that is the only problem with rape, child theft, torture, and murder. It's not even clear whether you understand that a child has to be created, neglected, and abused for a mother's milk to be sold.

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  • [+] 0 points 4 months ago (5 children)
  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 child)

    You cannot even accept "torture"? Really. Well then that clarifies your original comment.

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  • [+] -1 points 4 months ago (1 child)
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  • [–] -1 points 4 months ago (2 children)
  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 child)

    I think cattle are moral individuals that have the capacity to be wronged. That is all. That doesn't require that they are human-like people with full human-like capacities and rights. Just because a human is worth more than a cow doesn't mean a cow is worthless and you can do whatever you want to her, doesn't mean that a cow cannot suffer every bit as harshly as you can.

    Giving different words to the crimes we commit against animals is a way of insulating yourself from the crimes you commit, like how calling cow flesh "beef" insulates you from the horror and cruelty you commit.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago

    Coming in quite hot and using a lot of assumptions, my friend

    Is there a serious problem with the standard agricultural practices of large dairy farms of systematic forced pregnancy, either destruction of the calf or adding to the birth cycle once old enough, and other layers of mistreatment that should neither be condoned or continued? Absolutely and we should all strive to get the whole process abolished.

    That said, most cow breeds overproduce milk for their calfs needs and it is unhealthy for them to stay full at all times. Milking them is a kindness and until we can undo eons of selective breeding, needs must.

    I have an endless list of problems with the agricultural world and its practices but the reality is if we all went pure vegan right now, more animals would suffer in preventable ways. Tapering off the demands for the products of big agriculture, especially by forcing the market towards small farms treating the animals with kindness, and working towards reversing the changes we've caused in the breeds that make them more product than animal is the best route to end exploitation of animals.

    If you care about animals, shaming people does fuck all. Educating them without assuming malice goes a whole lot farther towards your point of view. Also recognizing that literal millennia of selective breeding will not be undone in a single generation and the process of reversing is slow and fraught with its own challenges that need to be addressed.

    Tldr: educate yourself beyond the rhetoric and hanlons razor. Idealism is great for concept but will fail on the reality when put into practice

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    [–] 7 points 4 months ago (21 children)

    Yeah, the most ethical diet is plant based.

    Why do you ask it?

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  • [–] -4 points 4 months ago (18 children)

    explain how you developed this idea it is more ethical. based on what exactly?

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  • [–] 10 points 4 months ago (17 children)

    Minimizing harm to others and harm to the environment is more ethical than not minimizing harm to others and harm to the environment

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  • [–] -1 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    Are you reducing the harm to others in a actually statically significant quantity though?

    To others I suppose you refer to animals. By being vegan you mosly reduce harm to a few species of big animals.

    Most animals by quantity are insects.

    If you count by individuals a person who saves a few ant nest from the horrors of nature and give them a nice controlled habitat would reduce the number of harm happening to individual animals orders of magnitude over what a diet change could achieve.

    As for environmental damage. It's a way. But not the only way. The most effective way to control environmental control would be to reduce the number of humans on earth.

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  • [–] 0 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    You have to take into account that animal agriculture is responsible for the vast majority (70%) of plants that we grow and we use pesticides for them. If we stop eating animals or stop using animal products all together we need tremendously less pesticides and harm less insects in turn.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago

    First, agriculture made for animal consumption doesn't have the same quality sanitarian standards as agriculture made for humans.

    Second, not all animals require vast agriculture.

    We could also war animals that do not requiere such agricultural measures. I have eaten cows, pigs and chickens that were raised traditionally, out of the natural fields and the parts of the plants that we humans do not want to eat.

    In fact for a environmental perspective traditional farming is far better than vegan diet.

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  • [–] -5 points 4 months ago (12 children)

    It is not minimizing harm in the way you can't hear a plant scream. That's the same logic people had about fish. This is a foolish and irresponsible way to think of consciousness.

    I will agree it is minimizing harm on environment however we have much room to improve even on that standard.

    Like not burning crops simply because it doesn't make money.

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  • [–] 12 points 4 months ago (5 children)

    "Plants feel pain" is an argument that supports a plant-based diet because it is more efficient to consume plants directly than to feed them to animals.

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  • [–] -2 points 4 months ago (4 children)

    i agree with the efficiency.

    stick with that argument.

    it works for you.

    stepping into moral logic around consiousness around pain and suffering: that the shittier arguments vegans come up with to feel satisified with themselves over others with magical thinking and that shit needs to stop.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    Vegans' moral arguments are just fine, it's just that most people don't give a shit. When you realize how shitty most people are to other people, it makes the need to take a different approach very obvious.

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  • [–] -1 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    Everyone requires a certain amount of mental gymnastics to consume any living plant or creature to continue to exist in a meat body.

    You can pick and choose food but you don't get to pick and choose who has consciousness.

    Denying that is shittier.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (1 child)

    If you are asserting that plants have consciousness, then this supports eating a plant-based diet due to how trophic levels work.

    I'm glad that we are on the same page with this.

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  • [–] -1 points 4 months ago

    Never said we weren't.

    as far as efficiency and better for environment we have been on the same page since the beginning.

    The only problem I spoke up against here is the conscious guilt trip should be considered a non starter.

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  • [–] 5 points 4 months ago (5 children)

    A foolish and irresponsible way to think about consciousness would be to pretend we can actually define it, then go around professing things are either conscious or not without considering there might be a scale.

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  • [–] -1 points 4 months ago (4 children)

    so you say you cant define it but you can throw something you dont know on a scale? so its only ok if you do it. uh huh. i see. that is some bullshit, fool.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    I said "consider there might be" whereas you were all over the thread speaking in absolutes to support your weak hypothesis.

    Nuance is obviously lost on you which is a shame as it's kind of a prerequisite for the philosophical debates you keep attempting to engage in.

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  • [–] -2 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    you certainly defend yourself in absolutes. pick a lane.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago

    Morals are internal and are often informed by one’s culture, upbringing, and lived experience. There is a wide array of answers here and that’s not surprising.

    For me I do consider vegetarianism to be a more moral option, I am not a vegetarian though. I think that Americans eat more meat than they need to and men in particular are targeted to over consume meat to the detriment of their health. With these things in mind I do try to eat less meat and go through phases when I am more successful.

    After taking a college course about the meat industry, my partner decided not to purchase meat, but still does eat it.

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  • [–] 4 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (2 children)

    Morals are subjective, I don't consider myself the arbiter of truth and I also reject theistic positive claims stating otherwise such as objective morals or free will. Personally I know I can survive without eating animals, so I'd rather not be indirectly involved in the killing of other animals where it is reasonably possible and I don't consider humans more important/superior to any other animals, generally.

    I think you could get a lot of people to even admit to valuing very old trees over a lot of people too so even some plants are worth leaving alone, according to some of us. Like Red Wood giants in Cali, for example. All the land cleared of wildlife to grow food for billions of humans is disturbing stuff at least to me as well. The planet is actually kinda... small. I've come to realise. I fully reject humanity's unearned superiority complex.

    I acknowledge it's hard/impossible to be absolute in the vegetarian ideal given all the ramifications of industrial overpopulation and just casually participating in the society I was born into. Best I can do on this suffering planet, that I never consented to being born to live temporarily upon pointlessly, is to minimize (elimination is unrealistic) the suffering my life inflicts on others.

    In other words, I don't owe anyone jack shit, not even Mommy Dearest. Yet I still stand by this moral position. Although I'd argue this is just who I am and always was. The justications put into words and labels applied came later. You'll notice I didn't condemn meat eating in this comment and that's quite deliberate. You are not me. I just explain my position when asked and it's up to others to adopt it or not.

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago

    morals are anecdotes that define your personal integrity. morals are arguable at best and carry little to no merit outside of personal experience.

    I believe you mean ethical.

    ethically, no, it's not wrong. mostly because the animals we consume are bred and raised specifically to eat. however, the treatment of those animals in corporate factory farms is unethical, and so makes the consumption of the products from those establishments unethical.

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago
    [–] 4 points 4 months ago

    Depends on your morals. For mine it is.

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago (10 children)

    Being vegetarian or omnivorous isn't very different, morally, as producing milk still requires killing calves. I think the better comparison would be with veganism

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (9 children)

    producing milk still requires killing calves

    It certainly is not a requirement. They don't have to use the males born to make veal.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (8 children)

    Yes, it is an economic requirement. They can't compete with beef cattle for meat production, keeping them alive just makes the milk more expensive than the farmer down the road who murders his calves can sell it for.

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago (6 children)

    the vast majority of dairy calves are brought to full weight before slaughter, but slaughter still isn't necessary.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago* (5 children)

    How do you recoup the costs of raising a bull to full weight (which happens at a fraction of its natural lifespan) without slaughtering him? It's like saying breathing isn't necessary because you can just hold your breath.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (4 children)

    you can just choose not to do that

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (3 children)

    As in, choose not to be a dairy farmer or consume dairy products?

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (2 children)

    even a dairy farmer can just choose not to kill.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 child)

    Do you even understand why you are entertaining such ridiculous ideas? It's because you don't want to face the truth and acknowledge the consequences of your choices.

    But okay, let's say a dairy could somehow operate without killing. They DON'T. You know for a fact that vulnerable individuals got murdered every time you buy dairy. So what the fuck?? What's this fantasy about murderless dairy (as if that was the only problem) of yours got to do with anything? It's a distraction from your victims.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    No. The nature of life consumptions of living things. I do believe however that it is preferable to eat from the least sentient of creatures as possible. You can even go further and eat things which does not kill things at all like fruitarians. This would be following the ethic of least harm. Its almost impossible for anyone living in the modern world to not be destroying it with their consumption. Most vegans for example would be doing more harm to me than say someone native to the americas before colonialism that ate meat.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    Fruitarian diet is quite dangerous.

    It's already hard eating all necessary nutrients on a vegan diet. Possible, but harder than with omnivore diet.

    But restricting to just fruits... I don't know if it's even possible to get all your body needs just from fruits.

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago

    Oh sure that is the issue with all diets. Kinda depends how you look at it. Morally I would see milk and egg as not being an issue. That is why I said like the fruitarians because you would be hard pressed to find a mondern one who accepted those animal products. Jains have a whole sorta categorization of how bad it is to eat particular things.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (11 children)

    No, I have a developed system of morality, quite strong. And eating meat doesn't contradict it.

    For anyone curious the model is based on avoidance of cruelty. Cruelty is what makes people bad. If you do something with cruel intentions it doesn't matter what you destroy, a human, other animal, a plant or even a geological formation. If you do it with cruelty on mind you are a bad person.

    But if your intentions are others, then there's nothing bad. You eat meat not because you want to be cruel towards an animal, but because you want to eat. Then it's ok.

    It's all about avoiding cruel intentions on humans. Those are my morals at least. I follow them and judge anothers based on them.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (7 children)

    What is your definition of cruelty?

    From Wikipedia: "Cruelty is the intentional infliction of suffering or the inaction towards another's suffering when a clear remedy is readily available."

    Because eating meat requires cruelty per this definition IMO.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago* (6 children)

    That definition is quite good, I would add that for cruelty to be cruelty the objective of your actions needs to be the cruelty.

    Eating meat doesn't fall into that definition, fron my point of view.

    You being alive causes a lot of suffering in the world, just because you are alive, you cannot live without doing harm to other living beings.

    You draw you line on "I'm not cruel because I go out of my way not to eat meat". There are infinite lines you could draw before and after or in parallel. Someone could say "Ido not walk because I may step on some bug and that would make me cruel, and anyone who walks and thus step on bugs is cruel".

    A clear remedy to avoid causing harm to absolutely any other living being is stopping being alive one self. I don't see much people following that route, and considering any living being as cruel would mean that that interpretation of what's cruelty is irrational and faulty. The intention for the suffering to exist is inherent in the cruelty. People need to enjoy that suffering in order to be cruel.

    I do not enjoy damage to animals, it's just something inevitable when I eat them. Suffering is not my objective, not the objective of anyone who eats meat, I would assume. So no, they are not being cruel.

    From my point of view, if the objective of your actions is not to cause suffering, even if your actions cause suffering, then you are not being cruel. Intention matters here.

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  • [–] 0 points 4 months ago* (5 children)

    From my perspective it is just unnecessary harm thus cruelty because you can live perfectly fine without eating or using anything provided by animals.

    A clear remedy to avoid causing harm to absolutely any other living being is stopping being alive one self.

    Veganism just wants you to reduce your harm to animals as much as is practically possible. Refusing to walk is not practical, not eating meat or dairy is very practical.

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (4 children)

    Take into account that one of the basis of my theory is that animals have no rights per se. When thinking about it it seemed illogical as it's impossible to police, control, or even tu conceive. How could you give rights to some invertebrate living 50 foot underground with a lifespans of 3 days that won't even see a human in that time?

    My ideology thinks about humans. I'm human. Society is form by humans. Humans are the only rational being on earth. We can work with humans.

    My definition of cruelty and why avoid it is not based on reduce harm to animals, I don't care about that. It's based on reduce harm on humans. That's why the intention and the enjoyment of causing suffering is the thing to avoid. Because that's what create "bad" humans, "cruel" humans. Humans that will hurt other humans. That's the only reason why I think that cruelty (towards anything, animal or not, even alive or not) is to be avoided. Just as a way to create a better society for humans.

    As long as humans are "good" and not hurting other humans I don't really care if animals suffer. They are "lucky" that cruelty towards animals is proven to make humans worse. But just farming and managing livestock for human consumption has not been proven to do that, as there's not cruel intentions in it. Just intentions to feed ourselves.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago* (3 children)

    Take into account that one of the basis of my theory is that animals have no rights per se.

    That is where we fundamentally disagree.

    They are "lucky" that cruelty towards animals is proven to make humans worse. But just farming and managing livestock for human consumption has not been proven to do that, as there's not cruel intentions in it.

    That's not entirely true though: The Psychological Impact of Slaughterhouse Employment: A Systematic Literature Review

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (2 children)

    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/358322559_Is_a_Plant-Based_Diet_Associated_with_Relationship_Aggression

    Plant based diet has actually shown some relationship data with some forms of aggressiveness.

    Study proposes normalize the data according to childhood trauma, but even then it would only show that plant based diet and omnivore diet have no differences.

    And while there are also papers which relation eating meat qith aggressiveness. Most aggressiveness linked with diet is usually related to red meat consumption in excess. Not with all meat, neither with a balanced consumption of red meat.

    Anyway, all those are barely noticeable. Not worth the benefits of people being able to chose their own diet.

    As said the fundamental difference in philosophies, is the consideration of the existence of "animal rights" or not.

    In a selfish tone, we concede all human, human rights because it's the path that leads to better live for one self. If you discriminate another human that human could have reasons to hurt you (legitimate reasons) It's proven that egalitarian societies work better. With animals this does not happen. Animal attitude towards humans is unchanged if we give them rights or not. It's not like a mosquito is going to stop bitting me because I consider it a first class citizen. Animal contribution towards my well-being will be the same, I eat them or not. From a practical point of view, giving animals rights achieve no goals neither for me or humanity as a whole. That's why I only concede humans rights, because giving human rights do make humans better, thus makes my life better.

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  • [–] 0 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    What is your argument against slavery under this moral framework?

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago

    Glad you ask. The core of the moral framework are humans. Life should be good for humans. Why humans? Because I'm a human. And my moral framework should be universal, applicable by any other human on earth, because offering a morality that work good for every human is the only way to ensure that everyone can follow it and then have a good society. It doesn't apply to animals as animals themselves cannot adhere at any moral framework they don't have the ability to do so.

    That being said the moral dogma look to ensure the behaviours that should ensure that human life is good. Slavery is bad for a human, so it's a bad thing. It's quite simple. A human suffering is just plain bad.

    Why I mentioned cruelty before. Because in my moral framework animals have no rights, they couldn't they are not passive subjects of my morals. But the relationship between humans and animals (and plants and other elements is not inconsecuential in human-human relationships). Humans who are cruel inevitably cause pain in other humans, thus why cruelty is to be avoided. Including cruelty towards animals, planta or other elements. Humans have the right to live in a cruelty free world. That's why being cruel towards an animal, like causing the animal pain for no other reason that causing it pain, is bad, is cruel and creates a bad world for humans (in essence I'm not caring about the animal here, just about what world is being created for the humans). But if an animal gets killed just because it's a source of food, and cruelty had no part in the equation, then it's not bad, as that behavior doesn't create a bad world for humans to live in.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    It's a difficult question, so I hope some people who have interesting things to say about it will turn up here. All I can contribute is this link: Ancient Arguments For Vegetarianism

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago
    [–] 2 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    I think it depends on where you get your meat, eggs, and dairy.

    A proper farm where the animals are kept safe, healthy, and happy for longer than they'd live in the wild, and in the case of meat killed quickly and painlessly? That could be considered morally okay.

    Factory farms where they lead short, filthy miserable lives, constantly being bred to maximize milk production? Nah, that is not morally okay.

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  • [–] 0 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

    That could be considered morally okay.

    Carnism is the typically unconscious and unexamined belief that cruelty and violence to vulnerable individuals such as livestock can sometimes be good or acceptable. It's not. The more you pick at it, the more it falls apart. I spent years trying to find ways to be an ethical consumer of other individual's flesh. It's fucking impossible, it contains contradictions you can never solve. Your whole idea of a "proper farm" would be laughable if it wasn't such a horrifying and self-serving delusion. Just stop abusing vulnerable individuals, it's actually so much easier than trying to consume "ethical meat".

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    What's the value of life? Is the life of an animal worth less than that of a human and a plant or mushroom worth less than an animal? IMO, they are all worth the same, human or haybale, cow or soybean.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago

    I would argue that no, it is not morally wrong per se to be non-vegetarian. Meat consumption is not morally wrong in general, it is just morally wrong in our society. We kill way too many animals to be sustainable and every animal you eat contributes to that. We harm climate and ecosystems to sustain our meat consumption. We hold animals captive and make them hurt and suffer. In this society you can not eat meat in a morally okay way.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    No.

    Sincerely, A lifelong vegetarian.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago

    no, for 100,000 years we went vegetarians.

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