Aww yep, good to hear only 45% support 'capping' the people they don't like, phew.
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What is it with right wing populists and their obsession with immigration? All they ever do is state the immigration is bad, and that it's the root of all evil, provide no evidence for the claim, and then just keep parroting the claim ad infinitum until either elected or arrested/shot.
I get that they're racist but they're bordered by the likes of France, who exactly is it that's coming over that they have a problem with?
Basically it's a way to distract from actual political issues, and shift blame to people that have a hard time defending themselves.
It's a very old technique but ususally works very well. The Romans used to execute Christians, and in mediaeval times European leaders would do pogroms (of Jews), burning of Catholics etc. Then 20th century examples like segregation, Nazism and fascists like Oswald Mosely.
Nowadays we have the modern versions in MAGA and Reform and "stop the boats" and whatever this Swiss movement calls itself.
Always condeming "the other" and making sure only to pick on those who can't stand up or really speak for themselves, because that persecution is cheaper and easier than acually solving problems.
Especially if those problems could be solved by worker reforms and progressive tax systems.
I doubt it was an honest goal. It was most likely a post-truth political device for aligbment.
We had a foreign exchange student from Switzerland living with us recently, and I can confirm that the German side of Switzerland thinks the French side as lesser.
That's not how immigration works. That's how the right want you to think it works.
I have literally never met anybody who has had their job taken by immigrants. Companies aren't allowed to pay immigrants less money than the current citizens so there's no reason to hire an immigrant over a citizen, in fact the opposite, a citizen is much more likely to understand the language and culture (although you do meet some people) and therefore much more able to integrate, and effectively operate in the business, whatever that business is.
If you want to emigrate into a country you have to usually prove that you're not going to cost that country any money. You have to prove that either you have the means to support yourself, or that you already have an offer of employment. The only exceptions that are made are for people who are fleeing persecution or conflict. But the vast majority of potential immigrants do not meet that criteria.
Since this thread is about Switzerland: We have the flankierende Massnahmen alongside Schengen exactly to prevent wage dumping. Companies get audited and we make sure foreign workers do not get paid less then local ones.
Edit: Most people who immigrate to Switzerland for work end up in high-income jobs. The lower-income roles get filled too, but that's mainly down to labour shortages rather than wage dumping.
Where did you mention that. And don't tell me it is because our immigration system is somehow strict. I can move around Europe with a high likelyhood that nobody ever checks who I am.
You are deviating. How is that what I said? And how is Switzerland not being in the EU relevant when they are part of Schengen?
And while your crime statistics are not in any way relevant to what I initially said, you do notice that the Initiative was mainly targeting the Billaterale contracts which are allowing immigration from Germany, France, Austria, you name it. These are immigrants they were trying to stop comming, not the ones from Nigeria which are a tiny fraction of who actually comes here. Their goal was to get rid of the wage protection system we have for EU workers and return to an older system where forein workers could be paid less and threatened with deportation if they didn't behave the way their employers want.
You've made a lot of claims above you haven't provided evidence for any of them. You do realise that being a rude and dismissive isn't a counter arguement don't you?
"Illegal" immigrates pay in sales taxes and use less public resources. They're generally a net gain for tax revenue.
Now cite your sources.
Lol none of these smear attempts prove the studies are flawed. You can dig up political donations and controversies for any organization in the country. It says everything that you couldn't engage with the actual data and resorted to ad hominems instead.
What a cowardly little racist weasel you are.
It's actually not very complicated at all you're just painfully misinformed
Research suggests that policing strategy may have put immigrants at a disadvantage by targeting only the most public forms of crime, while locals were more likely able to engage in the types of crimes that could be conducted behind locked doors.
The problem with "conducting your own research" is you also have to then read it.
I wonder if the output from the judicial system is the right tool to understand those issues.
Those are known to discriminate.
in germany the stats mentioned here look at suspects not at convictions.
Also checked that wikipedia citation abt sweden. It is from one study that defines second generation immiration status as immigrant. secondly that same wikipedia entry mentions that roughly 80 percent of cases are not reported. there are some scenarios that i can think of that prove this study to be utterly useless uneless it is meant to sow xenophobia.
What does the article mean when it says switzerland is "all but surrounded by four of them"?
It means Switzerland is all but surrounded by four EU member states. Germany, Italy, France, and Austria.
The point being every country around them is in the EU and Switzerland is a notable enclave when you look at a map.
Liechtenstein: "Am I a joke to you?"
"All but" has always confused me as a phrase even as a native English speaker. You would think it means it isn't surrounded at all, i.e. "all but:" = "the last thing it would be is:", but apparently not.
It's the worst phrase and we need to stop using it! Most of the time the actual intended meaning can be found by just removing "all but". Switzerland is all but surrounded == Switzerland is surrounded
No, it means it's almost surrounded. Lichtenstein is not part of the EU.
It's all but the worst phrase and we need to all but stop using it! All but most of the time the actual all but intended meaning can all but be found by just all but removing "all but". Switzerland is all but all all but but surrounded == Switzerland is all but surrounded
It's made worse by the fact that my native language has exactly the same phrase in terms of literal meanings of words... So naturally the meaning is the exact opposite of what it is in English.
I know this isn't how it would work but im just picturing some one woman giving birth, the doctor hands her the newborn and she holds it for the first time... Some man walks in wearing a black suit and pulls out a gun. He shoots the baby through the head. "sorry that was the 10 million and 1 Swiss child, we have a limit!"
Clearly it would be more humane to take out the oldest Swiss person instead of the youngest
Much better idea: kill the richest person and distribute their wealth evenly amongst the rest of the population, public infrastructure, and social programs
Repeat until there's no billionaires, no poverty, and nobody has to go without anything essential for living in a modern society.
this is switzerland, silly. they're more likely to kill the poorest first.
It's Switzerland. You could close your eyes and shoot the bullet blindly, you would probably hit a billionaire.
Out of all the countries in the world that shouldn't be implementing population caps, it's Switzerland. The entirety economy is based on people and corporations moving there.
That could be worse...watching tv on the couch with your spouse, you both laugh at the joke suddenly the door opens and your partners head splatters everywhere. The man in a black suit says "sorry, the tompsons just had a baby"...
Nah the nation-wide vote is the most moral approach. The list of candidates is selected from trending posts on social media, then the whole nation decides whom to kill in a democratic way.
You might find Kurt Vonnegut Jr.'s story "2BR02B" ("to be or not to be") an interesting read. It's not exactly like your theory, but it's not too far off.
This initiative was a conservative movement.
It would have been used as a cudgel to oppress immigrants or to target the out group.
Yeah, I understood that. But a hard limit on population is crazy. You would need to have some way of killing people for each person born. That's disregarding the fact that people have a beneficial use. They can help in food, service, manufacturing, business to business stuff.
But taken to the extreme if some person in a suit just going around the country killing people for each person born...
I don't know how many hospitals are in Switzerland or how big they are but it's definitely more than 10 a day so imagine someone just driving around all day yelling at traffic and any delay because they need to report how many people they killed that week and praying it's not a busy week in the maternity ward...
Or just denying citizenship or deporting. You know, other forms of state based violence
But how can that be sustainable? Ok sure you set up a limit of 5000 immigrants per year. Fine you deny everyone at the border over that limit.
How do you limit population? Either kill people or prevent them from having sex...logistics of both are pretty hard.
People have babies. That increases population.
Xenophobia and anti-immigrant policies are now present in almost every developed country.
Fucking xenophobes in Japan are not helping in that they're bent on keeping racial purity and "peace and order", anxious to kick out the Kurds, but at the cost of their falling population, growing numbers of shut-ins, and insane costs of living.
Are there Kurds in Japan? That's news to me.
Unfortunately, xenophobia is rising in many parts of the world, even in countries with negligible number of immigrants like Japan. I'm even surprised that in Chile, anti-migrant is a sticking point on their recent elections, even though they barely have any immigrants and many Chileans are even leaving.
I am blaming social media for amplifying polarisation. The elites are doing what they can to divide the population while they steal from our pockets because we're too distracted.
Just what the hell kind of law is that?
What I have seen, it's basically the right wing group of the Swiss government trying to pull a soft 'Brexit', if they have a population cap, essentially it ends free movement, so they would effectively be able to pull out of EU agreements. It's an insane move that I am glad to see has failed.
How do you cap population? Abortion is mandatory now!
Killing babies in the name of satan AND removing womens' bodily autonomy in one action, call that far-centrism. /j
If the permanent resident population exceeds 9.5 million before 2050, the Federal Council and Parliament will need to take measures, particularly in the areas of asylum and family reunification. The Federal Council would also need to invoke or negotiate exemptions and safeguard clauses in international agreements that contribute to population growth. If the 10-million threshold is exceeded, Switzerland would have to terminate these agreements, including the one with the EU on the free movement of persons after two years. This would also render the other agreements under Bilateral Agreements I null and void. Switzerland’s participation in the EU’s Schengen and Dublin agreements would also be called into question, thereby jeopardising close cooperation in the areas of security and asylum.
Basically it says that once some thresholds of population are surpassed migration laws and agreements start getting more strict until population reduces again.
As for the practicality of it if the referendum would have passed and a law would me made of it it wouldn't "cap" the population per se, it would have banned immigration into the country for as long a Switzerland population is above 10 Million.
The SVP sold it as anti-foreigner thing but it was really about forcing Switzerland out of the Single Market, a Swiss eqivalent for Brexit. Again. The SVP doesn't take no for an answer.
Hmm, yet another right wing politician, peddling policy that would weaken the European Union.
Holly gosh, I wonder where he gets his ideas and/or funding from?
Switzerland is not part of the EU. It is well known that they are neutral, I would say it is common knowledge. Are you trying to spread misinformation or just clueless?
Switzerland is in the EU's Single Market and has other important agreements in place with the EU. A key reason for that referendum was the SVP's ambition to force Switzerland out of the Single market. They can't get the Swiss to agree to that so they try it in hidden ways, this time with playing the anti-foreigner card, while not mentioning that this is designed in reality to force Switzerland out of the Single Market. So yes, this referndum had a lot to do with the EU. The majority of Swiss voters was not fooled though, again. But also this time, the SVP will not take no for an answer and will try again, with a different construct.
What is the mechanism for being forced out of the EU single market?
What the SVP wanted to get adpoted would force the end of freedom of movement with the EU if population in Switzerland only mildly increases (even if that were to happen purely due to domestic population growth btw). In that case there are guillotine clauses that would automatically kill major treaties with the EU, including the one on being in the Single Market. This is pretty much automatic, as Switzerland would violate the conditions based on which it is part of the Single Market and one-sidedly significantly change the deal. Freedom of Movement is, after all, a majory pillar of the Single Market itself.
Since Switzerland has strong associations with the EU which were actively threatened by a possible implementation of this proposal he's not completely wrong. This would have weakened EU as well as Switzerland as both parties profit of their strong cooperation.
For this reason foreign powers try to end or impede the cooperation between the different national states and divide the continent in order to conquer it.
I am not seeing the connection between Domestic policy and EU parliament policy in a country not in the EU. What is going on?
Switzerland has a strong assosiation with EU which includes many different sectors. For countrys like Sitzerland and Norway the deal is basically to follow EU regulations and therefore get access its very important internal market. One of them is migration: Swiss nationals are free to migrate into the EU and vise versa. If Switzerland was to cancel this deal of bilateral free movement (due to the proposed cap at 10 milion) this would mean not adapting EU law and hence lose access to the market. Which is logical because if countries outside EU could access the market without obeying its rules the door for missuse like dumping would be wide open. Since EU ist by far the most important market for Switzerland the economic consequences could be detrimental.
Swiss neutrality doesn't mean they can't be part of an economic or even political organization. Switzerland is part of the UN, various economic unions, treaties and organizations, European human rights council etc. NATO would be more of an issue, but becoming an EU member isn't conflicting with neutrality. There are other issues regarding sovereignty and our direct democracy and probably a couple more if joining the EU ever becomes a serious topic, but neutrality isn't a problem.
I don't think politicians give a fuck whether Switzerland is neutral or not
55%... wow... what a landslide... /slowclap
Do people on the left not realize how cooked they are?
It's going to get so much worse. Kids have rejected the left every where. Those kids are going to grow up and compound with the adults who already love this stuff.
Votes like this are just the beginning. The only chance they get is if the global right fuck up something. But after Iran, I'm not really sure what's left other than years of global right leaving governments.
I'm please to hear of the results. I didn't think the "No" side would have won by more points because the pre-referendum polls showed neck and neck.
Anyway, it's a silly initiative to begin with. I was thinking even if the "Yes" side won, in my mind I'm thinking "let the leopards eat their faces". Never mind the arguments on culture and so on, the economic damage to capping the population is insurmountable because it means fewer workers to migrate. And also, how is capping 10 million even logistically possible? Are they going to deport people? Who decides who to deport if a person is either long term resident or born and raised there? Are they going to do sterilisation if by some miracle there is a baby boom (which by the way, Switzerland like the rest of the world right now is having fewer fertility rate) and the population is reaching 10 million? Far right policies are moronic because they are purely based on emotions. Leopards eventually do eat their faces.
It's exactly the same in the UK. The whole Brexit thing has been the unmitigated disaster that it was predicted that it was always going to be. It turns out that if you don't let immigrants come into your country they can't pick your crops for you they can't drive your trucks and they can't work in the hospitals (amazing who would have known).
It's almost as if immigration is useful.
I have no particular skin in this game, but reading the article:
- Results are still pending
- Turnout of 59% > 55% of 59% is actually 32%
Come on folks 👀
Depends entirely on how the voting results are coming in. It's entirely reasonable to call a result if the sample of votes counted already is a representative sample of the whole.
A counter example would be the recent elections in California. The early results came in from rural red areas for the governors race. So the early results were heavily weighed to the voting trends of those counties rather than the much different high density urban counties.
Also. Article mentions 55% of voters. It never said 55% of the total population. It just also stated independently a 59% total turnout. They wrote it perfectly fine.
Actual results map for anyone interested.
https://abstimmungen.admin.ch/en/details?proposalId=6860
TLDR: There is nothing wrong with the way the article shared percentages or inferring results from a partial count.
That's a moderately high participation rate for Switzerland.
See this list of past votes.
https://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/en/home/statistics/politics/popular-votes.html
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