How many condemnations are we at now? I lost count.
None of this matters. Nobody is doing a thing and you can't bring back the dead. Fuck Israel.
How many condemnations are we at now? I lost count.
None of this matters. Nobody is doing a thing and you can't bring back the dead. Fuck Israel.
"Israel treats journalism as a crime" isn't a condemnation, it's a gross understatement. You don't drop bombs on criminals and then bomb Red Cross workers trying to get them out of the rubble and shoot up an ambulance taking them to hospital. It's hard to find words to describe how deeply evil the everyday actions of Israel are and people are constantly making it sound like some mild transgression.
Israel must be dissolved. They will soon pivot to "oh, but we can just change the government! This particular government was evil, but we can replace them with the good guys and go back to supporting Israel", do not let them trick you. This is a genocidal, fascistic ethnostate from the top down. The entire purpose of the project of Zionism has been one of ethnic cleansing from the very start. Israel has got to go, forever, to be a historical footnote for school kids to learn about and say "never again".
The more I read about Israel's behavior, the more anti-zionist I become.
One thing however needs to be made clear however:
Anti-zionism is not antisemitism.
Don't let the propaganda convince you otherwise.
There are plenty of jews who hate what Israel is doing and what it has become.
My line has been, and will always be:
The most antisemitic thing you can say is that Jew = Zionist.
It's not racial to be a sociopathic genocidal monster bent on control and domination.
Indeed.
Claiming that criticism of Zionism is anti-Semitism is claiming that the things that Zionists do are typical Jewish things to do. In other words, that it's a Jewish trait to:
and more.
In summary in light of the acts openly commited by those Zionists who have the power to freely act according to their ideology and the support of other Zionists for those acts, calling criticism of Zionism anti-semitism is the same as saying that the Jewish People as a whole are basically modern day NAZIs with different ubermenschen and untermenschen than the original NAZIs.
In summary, conflating Zionistm with the Jewish People as a whole and thus implying that being a Jew is to think and act similarly to NAZIs is indeed
The most antisemitic thing you can say
Saying "Jew = Zionist" is like saying "German = Nazi".
One thing however needs to be made clear however:
Anti-zionism is not antisemitism.
Why does that need to be your first concern? I dont know think accusations of anti semitism are particularly importtant in light of everything else going on. Someones feelings got hurt? oh no, lets stop talking about the murder of journalists and aid workers and get right on that antisemitism thing, because thats somehow got to come before everything else.
People lose their livelihood over antisemitism and the zionists know this and use it as a cudgel.
Genuinely this.
The label antisemitic has been so sullied its unrecoverable, get in line and be discriminated against by bigotry like everyone else. You aren't special.
I agree with you - conflating Jewish people with the state of Israel (or Zionism) is anti-semitic, although with that said, an overwhelming majority of Israeli Jews support the state and the genocide.
With that said, I've got a very minor bit of pushback
There are plenty of jews who hate what Israel is doing and what it has become.
What it has become kind of implies some recent change from a historical version of Israel which wasn't genocidal. There were some very early idealistic views of Zionism in the 1940s, but it has pretty much always been a fascistic ethnostate. Most people just haven't been aware until recently.
What it has become kind of implies some recent change from a historical version of Israel which wasn't genocidal. There were some very early idealistic views of Zionism in the 1940s, but it has pretty much always been a fascistic ethnostate. Most people just haven't been aware until recently.
That is a perfectly fair point, I used the word "become" as I wasn't completely sure on how the behavior developed or if it had been part of Israel from the start.
I can also see the logic of the jewish perspective after the holocaust, as a people they were hunted and exterminated across Europe, and wanted a country of their own to feel safe and secure.
However, that doesn't give them the right to hunt and exterminate another people, which is where Israel lost the plot.
Zionism actually predates the Holocaust by decades, though of course the aftermath of the Holocaust absolutely brought it to reality.
I understand the idealistic vision of Zionism, but the reality was obviously very different. Israel started existence by displacing people who were already living in a place. Colonial settlers pushing people out of their homes, violently, massacring them, poisoning wells and more - an act of ethnic cleansing known as the Nakba.
It was always a White Jewish Supremacist Colonialist project anchored on a late 19th century Western way of seeing the World (the same perspective as Europeans with "colonies" in Africa were they often forced the locals to work for them - a form of Slavery, not Chatel Slavery but still Slavery - or Canada's Indian Residential Shools).
Whilst most of the West actually evolved away from that (even if recently some of that was reversed), Israel was a bubble of White Jewish Supremacy (more White than Jewish, as shown by how the Israeli Authorities treated Black Jews from Ethiopia) stuck in time and with whatever little evolution toward Humanist values they imported via the minority of immigrants they had from the West (the majority by a wide margin of immigrants to Israel came from Russia and the Middle East, not the West) being reversed by amongst other things a Press and Politial environment that purposelly fed "Fear of the Other" and extreme Racism disguised as righteous anger at "violent" Palestinians (at times even openly called "vermin").
So yeah, not only was the Nakba a display of the dominant values in Israel (as is their overtly ethnically discriminatory Constitution), but since that time the country has not evolved away from that original perspective on other human beings and those racist late XIX century and early XX century views on human beings.
(Whilst, for example, Canada ended Indian Residential Shools and that is now looked back as a bad thing, Israel is right now commiting a Genocide in Gaza and Lebanon even more deadly than the Nakba and Israeli Jewish "settlers" are openly commiting a Pogrom on Palestinians in the West Bank with the support - sometimes activelly so - of the Israeli Police and Military)
If I was a survivor of the worst genocide , I would certainty not use it as an excuse to force a state on people that have nothing to do with it .
Germany was dissolved post-WWII, and reformed later. It's also not a great example IMO, denazification in Germany was half-hearted and quickly abandoned, leaving many nazis in positions of power.
I'm not sure what you mean - if the international community embargoed and censured Israel in accordance with international law and withheld arms and support, the Israeli regime would collapse, very quickly - at which point the international community could step in and ensure that Palestine doesn't become a failed state, and handle a peaceful transition and ensure a thorough and comprehensive denazification program with proper trials for those who committed crimes, and a period of truth and reconciliation. I also believe that nations who have supported Israel's genocide of Gaza - such as the UK, Italy, Germany, the United States, et al. should also pay significant compensation to the Palestinian people.
Those in power don't want to give us any of this. They should be removed from power, by any means necessary.
There is no fast solution but the better solution was always a one state with equal rights
Well, the same kind of WAS said about post-WWII Germany. It was joint-colonised for half a century and ceased to exist as a single independent state until 1989, and even then, German reunification was pretty controversial
Israel treats journalism as a crime,
How about Israel treats journalists like nazis treated Jews?
Condemned to what? Shame? We wave our fingers at them? Condemned doesn’t solve anything and tells them they can get away with it.
That's just fucking evil. Just pure irrational hatred.
A whole damn country full of psychopaths?
I mean, they invented a religion that places them as God's chosen people, with a history of genocides and claiming regions backed up by that god. They wrote their stories as the victors and somehow still manage to sound like the bad guys.
Psychopathy was probably rife in the 12'tribes and I wouldn't be surprised if it started with their dad, Jacob the maid fucker. Actually, probably his granddad, Abraham, the guy willing to kill his son to please god.
Either way, it's been like this for centuries and don't expect the country to suddenly change any time soon. The divine claim to the "land of milk and honey" has been their long-time casus belli for annihilating entire cities and civilisations + now with US protection!
Israel != Judaism
Israel is a British/American colonial project, not a religious thing
That's a very ignorant take on history, attempting to disconnect modern day Israel from the Israelites of which also comes Judaism from Israel's son, Judah and that tribe. Though, this has nothing to do with the religion specifically beyond its ideological influence of history.
You never thought as to why the modern state of Israel came to exist as it does? Restoration of 900 BC Israel? It was only later Israel would fall to the Assyrians. Then Judah to the Babylonians. The Canaanites at this point were way gone, Amon, Moab, etc., so the Israelites, as the tribes of Israel, were without homeland. No Israel, no Judah, nothing.
Then the Romans, then the English, blah, blah, blah. Suddenly it's the 1940s...
The British administrative mandate of Palestine—as the British empire just did with little regions all over the world—is coming to an end so they put the proposal to the UN. II's no Kingdom of Judah as well, where Jerusalem formerly was, but most of the landmass is central to the former Kingdom of Israel which was historically more prosperous and "the big one" anyway. Apart from this, it had nothing to do with America. The proposal itself had already been cooking for 30 years prior and the British were happy to execute it with UN agreeance. At times it was looking to go forward before WW2 was even a thing.
Your last statement is just entirely wrong, but it sounds catchy to anyone that's never looked at the history.
Most of the original Zionists was not religious and secular. Ben Gurion who said after the formation of of a large army we would expand to all Palestine also said Palestinians was decendents of the original Israelites and was converted to islam . So why did he advocate for ethnically cleansing those decendents?
I mean, they invented a religion that places them as God’s chosen people
Can you name a single religion whose creators didn't?
Buddhism. Gnostic Christianity. Hinduism. Probably a whole bunch more, I'm no theologian.
The hideousflaw in the post you're replying to isn't that, though. It's the idea that Israel invented Judaism, that Judaism is a monolith, that Israel is run on Jewish lines, and that Jews everywhere look to Israel for leadership.
That's some fucked-up thinking there. That thinking sucks.
Buddhism
The ones who believe the only way to reach Nirvana is to follow the rigid steps of the Budda and no one else can enter?
A little bit of a stretch, and they have a different idea for "god" but it's the same general idea, just no personification
I think most don't, and even in Judaism it's the more ethno-nationalist (i.e. Zionist) adherents that believe it. Christian nationalists and evangelicals do, but I don't think Protestants or Catholics do. And outside of Abrahamic religions, like Hinduism, at most it's kind of a "we're right you're wrong but idgaf", unless again you're getting into Hindu ethno-nationalism, but then the religion is just an excuse for facism and genocide, which brings us back around again.
I've been reading a lot of sociology of how people overcome "bad times" and unsurprisingly the answer is almost always connection. As Israel is fundamentally anti-connection state due to being found on explicit exclusionary principle - it can never overcome "bad times" and will forever be in conflict until this is corrected.
A whole damn country full of psychopaths?
The current government has cancelled four elections in a row because literally anyone else would easily win...
And the period before Bibi was six years of political upheaval.
Blaming all of Israel for Bibi is like blaming all of America for trump.
Even if those countries were actually fair democracies that doesn't mean everyone agrees with their government
On the other hand the responses of Israelis in opinion polls are not encouraging. From last July:
Personal response to the reports from Gaza: From examining the conduct of the state, we moved to a more personal question, asking: “To what extent are you personally troubled or not troubled by the reports of famine and suffering among the Palestinian population in Gaza?” A very large majority of Jewish respondents reported that they are not so troubled or not at all troubled personally by events in Gaza (79%), while the majority of Arabs said that they are very troubled or somewhat troubled (86%).
In the Jewish sample, we found no difference by gender (with 80% of women and 78% of men not troubled), while in the Arab sample we found that women are more troubled than men by the situation in Gaza (women, 92%; men, 80%).
Any time an opinion survey gives 4 options with no neutral answer and then lumps the responses into two categories...
A little alarm bell should go off in your head.
There's also the last part of that section:
On this question as well, we found a much greater degree of concern on the Left for the suffering and hunger in Gaza than in the Center and on the Right.
And now we're getting I to how Bibi's repeated cancelation of elections and open immigration for hard right e tremists and virtually no one else to juice those numbers.
I couldn't find a link to the poll, but it could be the vast majority of that 79% are effected by the standard psychological effects of how that survey was set up that anyone that stumbled past a grad level statistical analysis lecture in a drunken stupor would notice....
In fact, that set off so many of my alarm bells, I took two seconds to click the "about" section, see the guy running it also runs Home Depot, rembered how pro-Israel they are and even found you a source....
https://brusselsmorning.com/does-home-depot-back-israel-role-of-co-founder-bernie-marcus/77666/
You fell for propaganda...
They're intentionally doing surveys that overstate Bibi's support bro.
You think you're hurting them, but you're doing what Israel wants right now, you're spreading their propaganda unintentionally...
Israel: “Zero fucks given, as long as the US gives us everything we want, we will continue to kill whomever we want.”
The US (not just Donald Trump) has been enabling genocide, ethnic cleansing, and human rights abuses for decades.
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