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[–] 199 points 6 months ago (54 children)

How many condemnations are we at now? I lost count.

None of this matters. Nobody is doing a thing and you can't bring back the dead. Fuck Israel.

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  • [–] 30 points 6 months ago* (3 children)

    First, murica needs to stop giving them carte blanche, see if they smell the coffee...if they don't...let them fight their wars alone and see if being hated and feared is enough to stay safe...

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  • [–] 17 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (21 children)

    Seriously. And the approval rate of netanyahu is like 90 percent there. Like shit man, what the fuck do you even do? None of this ends without world powers openly declaring cold war style measures at the very least. Trade embargo’s are great if its cuba, but heaven forbid you stop giving literal aid to a country doing a genocide. What the fuck.

    Edit: I was wrong. No idea where I got that number from.

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  • [–] 21 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (20 children)

    And the approval rate of netanyahu is like 90 percent there

    What?!

    https://www.opinionsandratings.com/israel-polls/general-stories/israel-election-opinion-polls

    The current faction hasn't had the votes in years...

    That's why Bibi keeps canceling elections, if there's an election then his party loses, hes a normal citizen again, and his corruption case (that he's clearly guilty) finally goes to trial...

    You're right to be upset, but I have no fucking clue where you're getting your information from.

    Can you source that 90% approval rating you're spreading?

    Edit:

    To be clear, there's a 99.9999% Bibi cancels the 2026 elections like he has every year since he cancelled the 2022 elections.

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  • [–] 10 points 6 months ago

    Yeah after like some light googling I realize I was entirely wrong. It must have been on some specific issue that I was against and absolutely fucked up in my big dumb head. But you’re right. Thank you, some faith restored in my worldview now.

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  • [–] 3 points 6 months ago (17 children)

    I don't know if it was 90%, but I think he may be getting confused with the polled opinion of israelis support for action in gaza.

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  • [–] 4 points 6 months ago* (16 children)

    with the polled opinion of israelis support for action in gaza.

    There's still lots of confusion with those polls, because there's an absolute insane amount of propaganda.

    And for whatever reason, people still do t seem to even understand what propaganda means.

    It's not just something you'd read and think Israel is better, just like Bibi wants to conflate Judaism with Israel, he wants everyone outside Israel to think it's a united front.

    Bibi is 100% ok with me and you thinking he's a genocidal maniac...

    As long as we think every Israeli is too. Because then we stop talking about getting him out of power and in jail, and uninformed people start talking about treating all of Israel like theyre the problem and suddenly the united front has been "means tested" into fighting each other.

    Fucking ignorance is bliss man, all this shit is as easily noticable to me as how a kid shouldn't touch a hot stove

    I had good luck in this thread yesterday so I'm optimistic that made sense. If not tho, I can try to answer from follow ups.

    This is bigger than Israel, it's one of the most common form of propaganda: divide your enemies.

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (15 children)

    Israeli citizens require a lot of deprogramming, and they are mostly saveable.

    However, the bad news is that it may not be possible to do that without invading the country, since a majority of them are too far gone to accept deprogramming without serious coercion.

    I look at the example of deprogramming efforts in West Germany after WW2. Denazifying efforts did exist there, despite modern western communist revisionism (not all wrong, btw, but not all correct either, check ALL sources my ML and tankie friends). It was quite difficult in many cases; even though a majority of the German population was just relieved that the war was over, they would have kept resisting if their country had survived. And there was a sizeable minority that only stopped being Nazis openly to avoid persecution.

    Edit: and to be clear, I share your view that writing victims of propaganda off as enemies not deserving of leniency is monstrous. It is akin to what the fascists do. We must recognise the humanity in our enemies, while accepting that sometimes it is still necessary to kill them.

    We must only kill the poor bastards if it is necessary to stop them murdering others, not just because they are "monsters" and it feels good.

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago (14 children)

    Israeli citizens require a lot of deprogramming, and they are mostly saveable

    If that was true, that the majority need deprogramming...

    Why does Bibi keep cancelling elections due to his faction not standing a chance of winning again?

    Like, you do realize the reason he keeps starting wars is that this is his ex use to stay in power because his citizens don't want him in power?

    Some do, some do in every country

    But the majority don't want this path, youre operating under Bibi's propaganda that he has total support.

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  • [–] 3 points 6 months ago (13 children)

    You are discounting the idea that a lot of voters think Bibi is not killing enough.

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  • [–] 1 point 6 months ago (12 children)

    By "a lot"...

    Do you mean "not enough to win an election since 2021?"

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago (11 children)

    Quite possible. It's double figures at least, according to polls.

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  • [–] 1 point 6 months ago (10 children)

    It’s double figures at least

    You think 10% is a majority?

    according to polls.

    What polls?

    It feels like you're just saying whatever you want with no regard to reality...

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  • [–] 1 point 6 months ago (8 children)

    Is your claim that this video is a completely inaccurate hit piece then?

    https://youtu.be/hLQbPCvV8W8

    Searching "I went to Israel" didn't have it in the top 25 results, can't imagine why since the goal is to make us see all Israelis as the problem apparently.

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  • [–] 1 point 6 months ago (7 children)

    Is your claim that this video is a completely inaccurate hit piece then?

    Did you really just fucking ask if my existing comment was a response to some random ass YouTube video that hasn't been brought up or linked yet?

    How could it possibly be?

    Searching “I went to Israel” didn’t have it in the top 25 results, can’t imagine why since the goal is to make us see all Israelis as the problem apparently.

    Like...

    What are you even fucking talking about?

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  • [–] 1 point 6 months ago (6 children)

    Seems like your claim is that Israelis overwhelmingly don't support the regime, that video is a series of man on the street interviews.

    Sorry to inconvenience you so terribly, but most Israelis seem to be intensely racist toward arabs and in favor of the greater Israel project.

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  • [–] 1 point 6 months ago (5 children)

    that video is a series of man on the street interviews.

    ...

    And you don't think one of those could be heavily biased?

    but most Israelis seem to be intensely racist toward arabs and in favor of the greater Israel project.

    Because you're getting your information from propaganda...

    Bibi wants people to think everyone in Israel supports him, and that any criticism of him is a criticism of every Israeli...

    And you seem to genuinely believe that, or there's another reason you're spreading propaganda to make Bibi seem more powerful than he is...

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  • [–] 1 point 6 months ago* (3 children)

    ...

    Let's say I want people to think "the moon doesn't exist" is a popular belief in Chicago...

    If I took a survey, we'd see that almost no one is that stupid.

    But I really want people to think that "there is no moon" is common belief, at least in Chicago.

    So I ask 10,000 people over 3 months.

    Then I air a clip where I ask "10 people on the street". And I air the only 9 people who said there's no moon. And one guy who says it doesn't matter.

    You would take that as 90% of people in Chicago think there's no moon and the rest just don't care..

    Which is why I keep telling you:

    No "man on the street" video should be trusted and the people making them are idiots or think their viewers are

    Does fucking any of this starting to make the teeniest bit of sense to you?

    I legitimately can't think of how to make this simpler.

    You know what real polls show, you know why your video is bullshit...

    But you just keep repeating it has to be true because it reinforced your beliefs

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  • [–] 1 point 6 months ago (1 child)

    So we’re back around the the original thrust of the comment

    Yes...

    You keep going in circles and repeating propaganda...

    It's clear logic isn't going to help you, and you're just going to keep spreading Bibi's pro-Israel propaganda because you're somehow (maybe intentionally) incapable of understanding that it is propaganda.

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  • [–] 1 point 6 months ago

    If you don't want to look them up, that doesn't mean they don't exist. However, since I don't want to be some sort of asshole here, asserting things without evidence: https://www.chathamhouse.org/2026/04/israels-perpetual-mobilization-limits-netanyahus-super-sparta-model

    This page casts a limited light on what we were discussing, but gives you an idea on how many Israelis don't believe the govt is going far enough when fighting its enemies.

    As you can see, it is about the current war with Lebanon, but I have seen many stories that cite similar results about Gaza or the West Bank. A few minutes on Google will confirm that.

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  • [–] 4 points 6 months ago (11 children)

    The only condemnation that will be effective will have a megaton rating

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  • [–] 0 points 6 months ago (10 children)

    I don't condone mass murder nor genocide nor any other weapon of mass destruction, even if the target is a vile government.

    Just like here in the US, there are many, many people who are in utter disgust with how the things are going yet have ZERO control or ability to change the government other than vote and speak up. I'm sure there are still some people there who fight back. My ex, a photojournalist living in East Jerusalem spent the last 25+ years doing exactly that - granted she's Jordanian married to a Palestinian, but she lives inside Israel. Should she be targeted by a bomb?

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  • [–] -1 points 6 months ago (9 children)

    I don't think you know what the word "targeted" means

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  • [–] 5 points 6 months ago (8 children)

    I don't think you get what a megaton bomb is.

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago (7 children)

    I do.

    It would level a few city blocks, hurt people for around 12km.

    Much better then to let a country perform a 'slow nuke', right?

    Israel dropped 25 megatons of explosives on Palestine in the first month of the war. It dropped 36 megatons on Tehran in the first week of this war.

    While we hum and haw about your ex and other people that you place value on, more of the people you don't place value on die and suffer endlessly.

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago* (3 children)

    Megaton literally means "with the explosive power of 1 million tons of TNT".

    Now, the American Mark 84 air-dropped bomb (the so-called 2000lb bomb, which is the biggest that the US has provided to Israel) has a warhead of 429 Kg, which if filled with Tritional - which is equivalent to an 1.18x amount of TNT in explosive power - has thus an explosive power of 506 Kg of TNT, or roughly 1/2 a ton. (source)

    This is the largest common use US air-dropped bomb (and air-dropped bombs naturally have a larger payload than cruise missiles since they're little more than explosive payload plus a shell).

    Now, per this, the US had by the end of June 2024 sent over 14,000 2000lb bombs to Israel. That's around 5000 tons equivalent of TNT (or 0.005 megatons).

    It would take 2 million 2000lb bombs - or 142x times the 2000lb bombs the US had sent to Israel by end of June 2024 - to add up to a single megaton of explosive power, 50 million 2000lb bombs to add up to 25 megatons.

    Even if all the smaller bombs and cruise missiles added up to 10x the explosive power of all the 2000lb bombs, Israel would still need to acquire 14x times that to add up to a single megaton of explosive power.

    So by all indications your estimation of the explosive power dropped by Israel in Gaza is off by at least 10x, probably 100x, whilst the one for Tehran is probably of by 1000x.

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  • [–] 1 point 6 months ago (2 children)

    Why on earth are your estimates based only on bombs sent specifically by the US, specifically since the start of the war?

    You did so much useless maths based on such a ridiculous premise.

    Do you think Israel started the war without a stockpile of weapons? Or are you one of these Americans who thinks Palestine sprung into existence on October 7th?

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  • [–] 3 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (1 child)

    Those are the single biggest bombs around and the US is the single biggest supplier around.

    Feel free to explain how Israel could get hold of an extra 3550x worth of the equivalent of those biggest conventional bombs they got from the US for the supposed 25 megatons used in Gaza and the 4970x worth of them for the supposed 35 megatons used in Tehran.

    I mean, if the difference between my numbers and those megaton claims was only 10x or so, there is plenty of room in the assumptions used in my extrapolation from the 2000lb bomb numbers to an estimated order of size for the total explosive power dropped to possibly match, but it's not, it's in total more than 8,000x off.

    By your theory Israel had the equivalent of over 119 million of the largest conventional bombs around stockpiled and managed to drop or fire on Tehran alone at least 69 million bombs (the "at least" number is if they had used only 2000lb bombs - it's a lot more if they used more common 500lb and 200lb ones and missiles).

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  • [–] 3 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (2 children)
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  • [–] 4 points 6 months ago

    Why not use a smaller bomb, when the option exists? Or targeted assassination? Or drones? Using a megaton nuke seems unwarranted. Palestinians in the West Bank live within a rifle-shot of the evil settlers shooting them with rifles. Seems like you're willing to accept the deaths of the people you claim to want to protect as collateral damage.

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  • [–] -1 points 6 months ago (12 children)

    No one's doing anything about it because you can't have a conversation without people shutting down if you're not 100% aligned with their point of view.

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  • [–] 4 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (11 children)

    I do think I get what you're insinuating. People equivocate their language when speaking about the State of Israel because disingenuous players will say, "THAT'S ANTISEMITIC" because they're trying to trip you up and make you sound like you're talking about Jewish people and not Israel.

    At this point, however, I think that Israeli citizens who are turning a blind eye to the issues are just as guilty as Germans who did the same. Moreover, I would extend this indictment to fellow American citizens who aren't doing anything.

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  • [–] 1 point 6 months ago (9 children)

    You would get banned for doing Russian propaganda and claim criticism of Ukraine do not make you a russian propagandist

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  • [–] 0 points 6 months ago (8 children)

    I would hope if I repeated any Russian propaganda I would get called out on it. Then a discussion could take place on what we know and what is probably fabricated. And there is a place for valid criticism of Ukrane policies I'm sure - blind agreement with any side is ignorant. Obvious there's a shit ton more of a place for criticism of Russian policies. And context matters. But banning people just because they don't agree with the exact narrow narrative of a mod is counter productive. Obviously if someone is just blindly repeating garbage noise or is offensive then a ban has its place. But we've got to take care not to ruin Lemmy by banning everything that's not 100% in agreement with the hive mind. That leads to vacuous discourse

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  • [–] 1 point 6 months ago* (7 children)

    No context justify settler colonialism and genocide. Tou won't fins anything in internstional always. Defending stuffs like that are not opinions

    Most russian apologists are refuting concrete evidences. Those should be banned

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  • [–] 0 points 6 months ago (6 children)

    Yes I've seen Russian apologists say stuff that is completely at odds with everything that I've seen reported. I think they're lying and spewing propaganda, but I know in war that's fairly normal and the West also spews propaganda. There's sometimes a grain of truth; sometimes it is diametrically opposite of the truth. And then it can be interesting to dig down to the root message being played. But banning discussion should be reserved only for toxic messages, not just those that you disagree with. I'm sure there are Russians who actually believe Putin is doing the right thing based on the information they've been told - isn't it good to find their sources and prove how they're lies? They probably won't admit it on the spot, but you can change minds through communication. It's at least good to try.

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  • [–] 1 point 6 months ago (5 children)

    But banning discussion should be reserved only for toxic messages, not just those that you disagree with.

    Nothing more toxic than justifying illegal wars and genocides. Again we are not talking about opinions

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  • [–] 0 points 6 months ago (4 children)

    I've been banned while specifically saying I do not support Isreal's genocide. All it takes is saying Palestines shouldn't call for the genocide of Jews and I'd be called a hasboro, a Zionist and an Israeli appologist. People don't listen, they just see something that's not 100% supporting their extreme position and they lash out - and I understand the hate, but there certainly are reasonable opinions that don't involve revenge genocide, I would think. Banning discussion is stupid. It's like burning books in libraries that you don't agree with. Or defunding scientists because you don't like the answers that the science provides.

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  • [–] 1 point 6 months ago (3 children)

    But I talked specifically about people justifying settler colonialism and genocide . Don't make it about yourself

    Banning discussion is stupid. It’s like burning books in libraries that you don’t agree with. Or defunding scientists because you don’t like the answers that the science provides.

    Wrong analogy. Banning people advocating for invading Ukraine or israel colonizing Palestine is similar to banning nazis, racists and supermasists

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  • [–] 0 points 6 months ago (2 children)

    But people seem to think I'm justifying genocide when I'm clearly not, I'm just agreeing with everything they say. And they ban ban ban. That is stupid, like burning books.
    I 100% disagree with Russia invading Ukraine. It is horrific and stupid. But I would still be interested in talking with someone who supports it to try and understand where the hell they're coming from. If they just buy into Russian propaganda or worse are clearly spreading it on purpose then there's no useful conversation to be had, but if they genuinely believe it's the right thing to do based n something that I don't know about, I'd love to hear them out, and then presumably try to help them see where they are wrong.

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  • [–] 1 point 6 months ago* (1 child)

    Stop talking about yourself. There is settler colonialism apologists that run free on lemmy

    But I would still be interested in talking with someone who supports it to try and understand where the hell they're coming from.

    Once you present them facts and evidence and they still repeat lies. They should be banned. Nothing justify settler colonialism

    With your logic why not letting people calling for murder of any racist and supermasist comment and try to convince them that it is wrong?

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  • [–] 0 points 6 months ago

    I'm talking about myself because I have been banned from multiple Lemmy subs despite clearly not being one of those settler colonial apologists, but being accused of it for no reason other than I didn't just blindly agree with everything.
    And yes if people lie and ignore facts you can reasonably argue to ban them (I probably wouldn't, but I understand).

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