if Epstein could sing and dance, would he have gotten a biopic too?

rolling stone and aerosmith have movies, so yes.

interesting that you should mention epstein because when macaulay culkin was interviewed about that a while ago he brought up mj. mac said that one time as a child, he was scheduled to go to epsteins island when jackson called out of the blue to ask if he wanted a tour of the neverland estate. since jackson was famous, mac and his agent went to neverland, and he and jackson apparently became friends. mac stressed that he had never even gotten a creepy vibe, just that michael genuinely liked children.

maybe this was entirely coincidental, i don't know. but there is a chance that michael knew about epstein in the 90s and tried to help people steer clear.

all i know is that culkin seems like a good guy. he's called out bad practices and abuse in the industry before, to his own detriment.

Edit: Apparently that interview was faked. bummer.

The thought of white washing MJ is kind of hilarious

I have a theory about Michael Jackson. First, a little background for reference. I am not a fan of MJ or his music. I respect his talent and what he did with it, but it's not really my style. Also, I was a child when the accusations started. We all heard and told the jokes about him diddling little boys. I have no reason to root for or against Michael's innocence.

That being said, I don't think he did anything inappropriate.

I could totally be wrong. I wasn't there and I'm not going to claim that my theory is undeniable truth, but after watching a few of his interviews, I noticed that he never acted like he did anything wrong. I get that someone without remorse would act like that, but typically they know what they did was wrong, and they lie and sneak their way around any implication of involvement. Not MJ. When asked about his "sleepovers" he never denied them. He consistently said "Yes, I did invite them over for sleepovers. Yes, we often shared a bed. We would stay up late watching movies and fall asleep in the bed. That's what a sleepover is." It didn't feel like a predator denying abuse. It felt more like asking a ten year old how his sleepover went. They'd tell you honestly what they did, if they slept in the same bed, and wouldn't think anything was weird about it, because they're just kids.

Combine that with the abuse he suffered as a kid. His father treated those kids like a troop of trained dogs. Constantly practicing, constantly performing, always bringing in more money for the family. Michael was a superstar around age 6, and did not slow down until he was an adult, away from his dad and performing for himself.

I think that Michael Jackson never really grew up. He named his ranch Neverland, from the story of Peter Pan, the boy who never grew up. I think MJ felt like HE WAS Peter Pan. He had no childhood, and never developed like the rest of us. He was a 10 year old mind in the body of an adult. I don't think the amusement park in his backyard or the pet chimp were bait to lure children in, I think he just really wanted to live in an amusement park, race go karts, and hang out with like minded children like any insanely wealthy pre-pubescent boy would. Many of the children he hung out with have said that nothing happened, including Macaulay Culkin, who was his bestie for quite a few years. Even after MJ's death, he said "He never did anything to me. I never saw him do anything. And especially at this flash point in time, I’d have no reason to hold anything back. The guy has passed on. If anything - I’m not gonna say it would be stylish or anything like that, but right now is a good time to speak up. And if I had something to speak up about, I would totally do it. But no, I never saw anything; he never did anything."

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe Macaulay was groomed and helped MJ abuse other kids and cover it up, but I think Michael was just a emotionally undeveloped abuse victim trying to reclaim the childhood he never got to experience.

Personally I find all celebrity biopics disgusting.

I mean, it would be different if these things tended to actually be honest deeply researched analyses done by hard-nosed experts (which would probably mean they would be spectacularly boring as movies and better as articles or books) and if celebrity status was highly correlated to the greatness of one's achievements for society rather than to being well known because of practicing a very public profession (so, featuring more of, for example, Great Scientists and fewer Star Musicians and Movie Stars), but in the current society, celebrity biopics are fantasy spectacles about people whose fame is due to nothing else than being a competent professional in showbiz.

That in itself doesn't make the biopics "disgusting" but the recent abundance of them does add up to too much to of an overly sweet low-nutrition thing the point of being stomach turning, IMHO.

No, You are not too woke. However, being accused of a crime is not the same as committing the crime. Sleeping in bed with a child isn't a crime. Settling out of court isn't an admission of guilt. Making a biopic about Michael Jackson, the king of pop, is a no brainer for me.

Well... Melania got a movie too, and she and her husband were both best friends with Epstein and Maxwell.

Michael Jackson was a complicated person. Extremely talented singer, songwriter, choreographer, dancer and performer from a very young age. Clearly had a strange relationship with his own race, age, and physical features. Clearly had a difficult time relating to people in a normal human way. Had a well-known child-like personality. A lot of rumors and allegations around him, and he did a lot of extremely questionable and problematic things that if nothing else, poured a lot of fuel on that particular fire. Fucked up his body with plastic surgery. Died of a doctor-supervised overdose...

What I'm getting at is that a film is about telling a story, and I do think Michael Jackson had a fascinating life story with a lot of highs and lows. I'm not sure that he's comparable to Epstein, and even if he was, I think that it depends how the film portrays him and his life.

You could make an MJ biopic that was critical of his relationship with children and celebrated his musical career — you don’t have to uncritically depict people as 100% evil or 100% good. I suspect they haven’t, but I’ll reserve judgement until I’ve had a chance to see the film.

This is the one sex allegation I just don't believe.

And its a biopic so... It wouldn't matter who it was about. Shit... I'd watch a biopic about Epstein. I'd still hate the fucker at the end.

"too woke" was invented by big sleep to sell more Zzzz...

I've been around for the whole ride, and all I can say is anyone (other than alleged victims) who says they definitively know what happened is lying.

It's a fact that MJ suffered abuse as a child and that turned him into a weird adult. It's a fact that he had problematic behavior towards children.

I've always felt that his closeness to children was more about trying to be a child than fuck one, but my opinion is just that and carries no particular weight. I was never a super fan of his, and hated his ubiquity while I was growing up so I don't think I'm biased towards being charitable with him.

A part of me laments the loss of childhood innocence that was present in the seventies. Sure, it was against a backdrop of unspoken abuse and exploitation, but there really was a time when children could be naked together or around certain adults and it wasn't weird or gross or creepy. I grew up showering with other boys in gym and sports and swimming and bathing naked in lakes and rivers.

The world is different now with cameras everywhere. That time is lost to us. It would be creepy as fuck to try to recreate that. But it colors my perception of what was clear warning signs then vs now. There are people in this thread post arguing about whether a kid ever saw his penis, but I'm telling you there was a time that wouldn't have been as weird as it is today. Because there was casual, innocent nudity, it wasn't all sexualized the way it is today.

That all being said, there was a lot of really bad looking behavior and at some point where there's smoke there's fire. You'd have to think he would have the self-awareness of the perception that he was being creepy and inappropriate, and why wouldn't a person change their behavior?

At the end of the day I treat him like a likely predator. I wouldn't let my kids go near him if he were alive today. But he is someone I'm not comfortable saying was definitely as sick and twisted as some insist. He might have been. He probably was. But he might credibly also have been a really fucked up person who wanted the childhood that was stolen from him back and he couldn't have it no matter now much money he spent.

We will never have the truth in our entire lives. But! I kind of see how MJ could actually not be a pedo, but just a special flavor of weirdo.

Imagine that you are born into a family of 8 (2 came shortly after) that live in 2 bedroom home. Paretns are working class and an oppressed minority, so are you. At age 5 parents put you in a family band where they forced you to play and punished for mistakes made during rehearsals and performances. Time goes by. Your band becomes a sensation. You are the front man. You grow out of it and go solo. You are consistently the most famous artist. All eyes on you. Everyone knows each and every step you make, in tiny details.

All that while your childhood was spent never having own corner, never having time to play with other children. You are constantly performing everywhere. Your life is not like "the other kids".

Now you are famous as hell with a millions to your name. You can do pretty much anything. And you, of course, might get that feeling of wasted time that you probably can catch up with. You attempt to create a real Neverland, spend tons of time with children, try to make their lives magical and wonderful. You do things for childer that you've dreamed you'd like to have when you were a child yourself. BUT you are at the age of 30 and every one assumes that you diddle children. Which, again, might be true. We cant possibly deny false accusations in favor of getting rich by settlements. And that baby over the balcony didnt help either.

I, honestly, feel bad for him. Great musician, vocals are top notch and unmatched. Dancing moves out of this world. Great showmanship. Terrible personal life full of abuse, discrimination, specualtions, accusations, failed childhood. Poor guy. He was fucked up in head. Maybe not in pedofilic way. But he was certainly not fine. All that life experience plus super likely drug abuse since we are talking about show biz.

In lieu of facts, I think most apologists who know the broad strokes of his life tend to address his behavior as the result of the significant abuse he received as a kid. I'm not really familiar with his behavior beyond the highlights, but I don't know if he was ever accused of having raped any of the kids. I know he generally engaged in very creepy behavior with the kids, and the pedophilia was heavily implied though.

To answer your question, yes, I think it's a creepy cashgrab at best. I might watch it on a long flight out of curiosity if it's available, but I don't forsee seeking it out.

I don't think it's fair to compare Jackson to Epstein. Also, he has never been convicted, whereas Epstein was. I feel like "separate the art from the artist" applies and everyone has a different line for that. Like how people still support Polanski despite how despicable he is.