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[–] 147 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (44 children)

Funny, but taxes ARE cool. Anyone who disagrees is welcome to do the research by living in any number of failed states.

Don't be that guy that goes to dinner with a large group of friends then skips out on the bill.

Edit: quality shitpost!

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  • [–] 63 points 7 months ago (22 children)

    Nothing inherently wrong with taxation. The problems are how taxes are determined, how they're collected, and how that money is distributed.

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  • [–] 33 points 7 months ago (2 children)

    Exactly. Conceptually, taxation isn't left, but the way some governments use those funds absolutely is theft.

    Not to mention how angry people are about taxation, but are also completely unaware that conceptually, profit is actually left of your surplus value.

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  • [–] 5 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    I have one simple trick for people who hate taxation but turn a blind eye to corporate profits. Instead of calling it "tax" call it "government profit" because, apparently, that's all it takes to fool them.

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  • [+] -24 points 7 months ago* (18 children)

    Modern governments with their own Fiat currencies don't use taxes to pay for anything. The money doesn't get distributed, it gets destroyed to control inflation.

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  • [–] 23 points 7 months ago (15 children)

    Not how that works. Not how any of that works.

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  • [+] -9 points 7 months ago* (13 children)

    It really is how this works.
    It's just that nobody realised until the last couple decades. And now we have a century of inertia behind economic theories that say otherwise. A century of economic theory that's been horrible at predicting the real economy by the way.

    But it's not difficult to understand.
    If a government can make money out of nothing to pay for anything it needs to (the definition of fiat currency), then it doesn't need to collect taxes to pay for things. If it doesn't need to taxes to pay for things, then what do taxes do? Taxes remove money from the economy, offsetting the money added by government spending from nothing. This is direct inflation control.

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  • [–] 9 points 7 months ago* (9 children)

    You're onto a piece of something, but it's a partial truth that you've perhaps over generalized.

    To your point, America is exporting it's inflation globally so it can buy things with money it doesn't have. I also agree to your point that neoliberal economics, especially how it is discussed in public through western (American) & billionaire owned media and government is a sham. This is some of the kernel of truth you speak of.

    You overstate your case when you talk about taxation and economics as a whole. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater just because someone else shit in the tub.

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  • [–] 3 points 7 months ago* (8 children)

    I don't understand.

    exporting it's inflation globally

    Do you mean inflation as increasing prices?
    Or increasing money supply?

    I'm not sure either matters realy, as the USD is the global currency. Foreign and domestic together, are a single economy from point of view of the USD.

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  • [–] 8 points 7 months ago (7 children)

    That's it! You answered your own question. Because it's the global reserve currency, it can inflate its money supply and gain the domestic benefits of money for nothing, but the negative impacts of "relatively more dollars chasing relatively fewer goods" are diluted among all global economies using the USD.

    It's a limited and temporary advantage. As the world is finding out the hard way, any dealing with US assets now poses incalculable geopolitical risks. Not just from losing the defacto reserve status, but both from abandoning the rule of law for autocracy as well as from disruptive warmongering, tarrifs, broken deals, loss of trust and the inability to bargain in good faith.

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  • [–] -1 points 7 months ago (6 children)

    Yah... That's econ 101 stuff I'm not and haven't been confused about that. Not sure how that's 'exporting' inflation.

    I don't understand what you're trying to say.
    I'm not sure you understand what I'm trying to say.

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  • [–] 5 points 7 months ago (5 children)

    You:

    Not sure how that's 'exporting' inflation.

    Me:

    the negative impacts of "relatively more dollars chasing relatively fewer goods" are diluted among all global economies using the USD.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (4 children)

    I guess if you want to define the term that way, you can.
    Seems an odd choice of phrase.

    If you export something, you don't have it domestically any more.
    But this doesn't work that way.

    Diluting is a better term. But diluting isn't exporting.

    But still, that's nothing to do with what I was saying.
    Which is why I'm not sure you understood what I was saying.

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  • [–] 4 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (3 children)

    Dilution is fine, but so is export. Your usage of export isn't right. Denmark can export little tins of butter cookies, but still have buttercookies for sale domestically because they didn't export all of them. It's almost never a binary all/nothing act, so not sure why you would object on the implication it did.

    Understanding what you are trying to say is a bigger issue.

    But it's not difficult to understand.
    If a government can make money out of nothing to pay for anything it needs to (the definition of fiat currency), then it doesn't need to collect taxes to pay for things. If it doesn't need to taxes to pay for things, then what do taxes do? Taxes remove money from the economy, offsetting the money added by government spending from nothing. This is direct inflation control.

    This has a lot partially correct in here too, but you're comitting similar mistakes. The logic is "unconventional". Might be too much for a convo in a shitpost, but fuckit, you're interesting, let's find out. Breaking it down:

    If a government can make money out of nothing to pay for anything it needs to (the definition of fiat currency), then it doesn't need to collect taxes to pay for things.

    Fiat currency being an infinitely creatable unit of account is, as you say, money out of nothing. Also, as you say, it can be used to pay for anything it needs. The part you're missing is "with consequences." If the number of dollars x velocity of money is roughly equal to the goods and services available in the economy, there is no inflation, even with its fiat nature. If the number of dollars x velocity increases or decreases via fiat mechanics, at the same rate as the total goods and services in the economy, there is no inflation. Econ 101 as you say.

    Inflation comes when the number of dollars and/or velocity increase beyond the value of goods and services available in the market. In your statement you said governments don't need taxes because they can manipulate fiat via quantitative easing to create the money they need to buy things. They can, but it will necessarily create undesirable inflation. Think about it, the economy is the same, the people's use of dollars x velocity is the same, but government is adding more dollars. Its the very definition of inflation. When governments collect taxes to pay for things, they aren't creating money, government spending is exactly balanced by reduced taxpayer spending and is not inflationary. Your statement is thus incorrect.

    If it doesn't need to taxes to pay for things, then what do taxes do? Taxes remove money from the economy, offsetting the money added by government spending from nothing. This is direct inflation control.

    This feels muddy to my previous point. Gov does need taxes to offset public spending to avoid inflation. Its not taxes or public spending that that are used to actually control inflation. That role in normal times is served by government debt sold on world markets and most importantly the rates paid on it. In emergency situations when that is not enough, quantitative tightening or easing are used.

    Going back to the previous definition based on a steady state economy, we can now add inflationary pressures from debt markets. In a global economy, debt is not directly inflationary because the debt buyers trade their claims on goods and services with the government who will spend their money, just like taxes. Oversimplifying a bit here, no "new" dollars are effectively being created in the system, just moved around from creditor to debtor. The interest paid on the debt, is potentially highly inflationary/deflationary. It isn't straight forward either so for brevity, low rates make borrowing cheaper and can goose the economy by increasing production of goods and services. High rates can similarly restrict investment, slowing the rate goods and services are consumed and produced, slowing velocity.

    Governments get into trouble with this because goosing or choking your economy with rates and deficit spending have consequences. If rates are too low, borrowing increases in non-productive, consumer oriented credit. Now the consumer borrowed from their future, but there is no increase in productivity to offset the payback with interest. Like a sugar rush that follows with a sugar crash, its a big headache.

    Government have a similar function with deficit spending, but they can inflate their dollars away if borrow to much. They can always pay back their debt, with the caveat being that it is devalued dollars being paid back. The balance of Creditor sentiment and government power determine where rates land at any given time.

    All this to say, your understanding of taxes, money supply and inflation doesn't align enough with how the system really works.

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago* (2 children)

    99% of that is correct. That is exactly what governments do. You understand exactly what I'm saying also.

    The one part that's wrong is tiny, but absolutely foundational to what I'm saying,

    What governments do, doesn't necessarily correlate with how things work. What they do, and have done for centuries, could be wrong.

    I'm arguing that it is wrong. I'm saying that everyone has been running their economies and making monetary policy decisions based on wrong ideas, since fiat currencies were invented.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (1 child)

    How should it work?

    From what I understand, you want no taxes and governments just quantitative eases their money supply into existence to fund everything? A Hyperinflationary scenario.

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  • [–] 3 points 7 months ago

    NO TAXES!?!
    I never said anything close to no taxes! I said the opposite of no taxes!

    I said the purpose of taxes isn't what people think it is.
    Governments don't need to take money so they have money to spend.

    That doesn't remotely mean I don't want taxes, or taxes aren't necessary.
    Taxes are absolutely necessary!
    Taxes are the flip side of government spending.

    The government spends into the economy with one hand, and taxes out of the economy with the other hand. Taxes are the real inflation control.

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  • [–] 12 points 7 months ago (2 children)

    Taxes don't remove money from the economy, it's just a way the money circulates through it. Taking a loan and paying it back isn't removing money.

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  • [–] -2 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 child)

    That's the old economic model that treats a government like any other organization in the economy. It's not.

    Taxes aren't loans. Banks aren't governments. Completely different and uncomparable.

    The difference is banks don't control their own currency. That single difference changes everything.

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  • [–] 4 points 7 months ago

    The difference is banks don't control their own currency. That single difference changes everything.

    Me again! (Sick of me yet?) This too is at least partly incorrect. Especially in the context of the US. While true the Treasury has ultimate control over the currency, the Federal Reserve has effective control over the important levers like rates and quantitative changes. The Fed is a private banking cartel made up of the big private banks.

    Even in most other countries where central banking is government run, it's still an arms length agency.

    The other dude is right as per my lrevious post and his. Taxes are neutral. Increase government spending by reducing taxpayer spending.

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  • [–] 21 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    paved roads/wastewater treatment/food safety/free public education intensifies

    "The government is robbing us blind! It's just like before the American Revolution, the winning local/state political candidate isn't the one that I voted for, this is oppression!"

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  • [+] -10 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (4 children)
  • [–] 11 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 child)

    I'm pleased that you can conceptually see this "possibility", for lack of a better word. It speaks of creativity and imagination.

    That your conclusion seems locked-in on this possibility as the only solution, is needlessly below your abilities and shows mental rigidity or tunnel vision.

    Currency and Taxation CAN and HAVE been weaponized as you described, but so has a carrot. Just because a carrot CAN and HAS been used to stab through someone's eye and pierce their brain, killing them, doesn't mean that this is what carrots are for, or how public policy should treat carrots.

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  • [–] 13 points 7 months ago

    Taxes are not theft. They are contributing to the group that shares resources like water and services like roads. These are not naturally forming, they are planned and maintained by people doing a job who need to be compensated.

    The problem with taxes is who is taxed. If only a few hundred families control a majority of the wealth, why are you paying taxes? They need to be taxed back down to the quality of life that we live.

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  • [+] -11 points 7 months ago (8 children)

    I'd rather live in a world without government or currency. Taxes suck, but only insofar as it legitimizes and enables the monopoly of violence

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  • [–] 18 points 7 months ago (7 children)

    Have fun in Mad Max might makes right land.

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  • [–] 5 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    Mad Max land is what we have where people in the third world are impoverished so we can benefit off their hard work.

    Capitalism cannot survive without exploitation at the bottom level.

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  • [+] [S] -5 points 7 months ago (4 children)
  • [+] -9 points 7 months ago (5 children)
  • [–] 13 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 child)

    Yeah, but can I be the guy who supplies industrial amounts of chlorine, alum, sodium hypochlorite, lime, ferric chloride, sodium hydroxide, activated carbon, polyphosphates, hydrogen peroxide, and ozone for disinfection for my local water treatment plant? Can you spare the steel and engineering brother? I'm so thirsty. Do you know anyone who is good at instrumentation and SCADA who wants in on our potluck?

    I also have to take a dump. Can I give it to you? After we wash our hands, we can cook a meal together.

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  • [–] 3 points 7 months ago (2 children)

    Socialism is just the highest tier plan on Taxes+

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    [–] 17 points 7 months ago* (1 child)

    We can rescue this slop post. Shut up and post pictures of Sasha Grey

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    [–] 24 points 7 months ago (3 children)
  • [–] 12 points 7 months ago (5 children)

    Taxes are fine so long as they are fair and apply to everyone.

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  • [–] 12 points 7 months ago (4 children)

    Including all businesses, which disproportionately benefit from publicly funded infrastructure.

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  • [–] 10 points 7 months ago (3 children)

    I was thinking religious organizations and the ultra wealthy, but you're right as businesses would cover those.

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  • [–] 6 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    Taxes are cool when they work properly. The problem with taxes right now is that we're not really getting much benefit for what we pay and those that have the most are not paying their fair share. Not only that, a large portion of our tax money is going directly to those companies that refuse to pay taxes.

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  • [–] 4 points 7 months ago

    In the U.K. we have this really cool thing known as “in work benefits” where the government tops up your income cause companies pay such shit wages.

    Reform, one of the popular right wing parties wants to cut the benefits bill, which will include this and pensions. It’s exciting to find out how much damage that will cause, if they get in.

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  • [–] 15 points 7 months ago (3 children)

    This HAS to be old school meme, surely

    I duno if most of the youths today would recognise her

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  • [–] 7 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    Tax evasion is no grey area!

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    [–] 3 points 7 months ago

    Mommy Sasha

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (2 children)
  • [–] 0 points 7 months ago

    Locking this thread because some of y'all are so dumb it's unnerving.

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