top 99 comments

sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] 41 points 8 months ago (28 children)

Even if you're talking about chicken eggs specifically it's still the egg first. The first chicken egg would have been laid by a proto chicken

  • source
  • hideshow 28 child comments
  • [–] 21 points 8 months ago (3 children)

    proto chicken

    Bro chickens are already loaded with protein, what are you doing?

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 3 child comments
  • [–] 5 points 8 months ago (6 children)

    I don't think It's that clear, are eggs named by what created them, or what they contain? I could certainly see an argument that the first chicken hatched from a proto-chicken egg

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 6 child comments
  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (4 children)

    Ok, but does it matter what it's called? If it contains a modern chicken, and it's an egg, whether it's a chicken egg, or a proto chicken egg is debatable. But the egg definitely came first

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 4 child comments
  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (3 children)

    Not if we are specifically asking about whether the chicken or the chicken egg came first (which is what the original comment in this chain implied), because if proto-chickens lay proto-chicken eggs and a chicken was hatched out of one, then the chicken came before the chicken egg

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 3 child comments
  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (2 children)

    Sure but that's changing the question, the original question is "which came first, the chicken or the egg" not "the chicken or the chicken egg" so the answer to the question, as posed, is definitely: the egg

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 4 points 8 months ago (12 children)

    But is it a chicken egg because it hatches into a chicken or because it is laid by a chicken?

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 12 child comments
  • [–] 9 points 8 months ago (11 children)

    Because it hatches into a chicken, you're thinking of a chicken's egg

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 11 child comments
  • [–] -1 points 8 months ago (8 children)

    "chicken's egg" is the owner of the egg the chicken inside it, or the one who laid it?
    Likewise it's not clear that "chicken egg" refers to the creator of the egg or the inhabitant of it.

    Pretending for the sake of semantic argument that any of these scenarios were possible:
    If an alligator laid an egg and a chicken came out, was that a chicken egg?
    If a chicken laid an egg and an alligator came out, was that a chicken egg?

    But now consider, you know what I mean by the following phrase:
    "An alligator laid a chicken egg, and an alligator hatched out of it"

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 8 child comments
  • [–] 0 points 8 months ago (7 children)

    One who laid it. Yes it is, it's the inhabitant. Yes. No. You mean alligator egg, not chicken egg.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 7 child comments
  • [–] 0 points 8 months ago (6 children)

    "you mean alligator egg"

    No, I didn't. And yet you still likely understand what I mean, or get close enough to what I mean that it doesn't matter, unless you're being intentionally obstinate.

    And what do you think of the idea that the egg is simply a phase in the life of an animal, that the chicken is the egg it hatched from, not just the former inhabitant? In this case how can the egg be owned by the animal that laid it if it is itself an animal?
    Like the caterpillar is the chrysalis is the butterfly, the chicken is the egg.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 6 child comments
  • [–] 0 points 8 months ago (5 children)

    If it hatches into an alligator then it's an alligator egg, so yeah you did mean alligator egg. I actually don't know what you mean, because what you described doesn't make sense.

    And I do think think that, it belongs to that creature just like you belong to your mom and vice versa. If somone pointed at your mom and said "that's PeriodicallyPedantic's mom" and you said "Aha! But how can she be mine when she's a different person!", they'd probably just say "the fuck you on about".

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 5 child comments
  • [–] 0 points 8 months ago (4 children)

    I honestly do not believe that when I said that, you not only didn't but we're unable to imagine an egg that by all properties confirmed to the expectations of a chicken egg until an alligator miraculously hatched out of it.

    I do not believe you're debating in good faith

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 4 child comments
  • [–] -1 points 8 months ago (3 children)

    I genuinely cannot imagine that. It doesn't make any sense. The only property that is a necessary condition for an egg to be a chicken egg is that it has the potential for a chicken to hatch from it. So what you are describing has an inconsistency and is therefore nonsense. Do you mean an alligator egg that looks like a chicken egg? Because if so, then it's still an alligator egg.

    Literally the only thing that matters is that an alligator hatches from it, so it's an alligator egg.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 3 child comments
  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (2 children)

    The amazing thing about imagination is it doesn't need to be consistent or based in reality. People can typically imagine such things.

    For example, I can imagine an elephant disguised as a normal sized human in a trench coat, because within my imagination, hammerspace can exist.

    As such, I can imagine an egg that has every single property of a chicken egg; look, flavour, size, smell, colour, etc, such that it was absolutely indistinguishable from a chicken egg until it miraculously hatched an alligator. I extremely strongly suspect that the overwhelming majority of people would have understood what was meant by the thought experiment.

    And literally you're just asserting you're correct by fiat. The people on the other side make the exact same argument about their side. You seem to be missing that this entire dilemma hinges on the fact that there is no specific definition for "chicken egg", so to claim you're correct by definition is baseless afaict.

    The best argument I've seen so far is that the entire dilemma doesn't even make sense since the chicken is the egg; it's the same animal just in different phases of its life, therefore one cannot come before the other; it'd be like saying "which came first, the chicken or the other chicken?". But that comes dangerously close to the question of when life begins, so gonna try to avoid that.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 0 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 child)

    So I can imagine what you are describing, that is not the issue. It's just that I would not call that a chicken egg. And I could imagine a world in which it would be, but that's then not where we reside so it's not relevant.

    Definition of an egg: an animal reproductive body consisting of an ovum together with its nutritive and protective envelopes and having the capacity to develop into a new individual capable of independent existence.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago

    That's the definition of an egg, not chicken egg.

    There is no universally accepted definition, that defines it by the creature that laid it or the creature that hatches from it.
    If there was, this dilemma wouldn't exist and there wouldn't be any debate.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] -4 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    I feel like this kinda answer just shows you haven't really thought about the problem in depth.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 66 points 8 months ago (23 children)

    A chicken egg came before the chicken because it is the same animal and the egg stage is earlier than the adult stage.

  • source
  • hideshow 23 child comments
  • [–] 53 points 8 months ago (14 children)

    TIL the first chicken egg wasn't laid by a chicken

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 14 child comments
  • [–] 66 points 8 months ago (4 children)

    All mutations are birthed by the unmutated.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 4 child comments
  • [–] 17 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    if you want something crazier, look into ring species. where different species of animals have all their in-between species still alive and mate with each other, but the ones at the extremes cant mate with each other

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago

    Yeah one of my favorite ones is how donkeys and horses can mate for mules but some of those mules will be able to make with either eachother or one of the two parent species but not both, but most mules are infertile.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 10 points 8 months ago (4 children)

    Proto-chicken>chicken>eschato-chicken

    Chickens have "evolved" in recent years more than recent centuries

    We just keep the chicken name but at what point do they become a different animal.

    Evolution is slow and has no definite point in time of "First official example of a 2000s definition of a chicken"

    It's similar to the paradox of the heap.

    Of course a "chicken" layed the first chicken egg. But if we called that "chicken" a chicken then her egg would be the first chicken egg. Not the one she just layed.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 4 child comments
  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago

    Yeah it's an arbitrary line. Slow changes generation after generation, but where normally those changes balance out (a tall person is not much more likely to reproduce with tall people than short people), when a trait is advantageous/disadvantageous to survival or reproduction or encourages those with it to only reproduce with others with it sometimes it tilts the scales and slowly a proto deer/horse finds itself increasingly adapted to water to the point its leg bones become vestigial

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (2 children)

    The proto-chicken was a mutant Red Junglefowl. Just like a proto-dog was a mutant wolf.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    You do not get a Red Junglefowl laying a 2000s definition of a chicken egg. You get a Red Junglefowl laying an egg with a mutation that that "Red Junglefowl" will pass on.

    Every generation the Red Junglefowl becomes closer to the 2000s definition of a chicken.

    It wasn't a "mutant" in the sense that one Red Junglefowl was born to create the chicken egg what we know as a 2000s definition of a chicken.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago

    Yeah, there's never a hard dividing line between a species and its immediate predecessor. Merely a gradual chain of mutations that eventually results in distinct populations. If those populations can't successfully interbreed even if transported to meet, they're different species. The definitions for asexually reproducing organisms are even more fuzzy. This concept that taxonomy doesn't have fixed divisions confuses a lot of anti-evolutionists.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago

    Even that isn't really clear in practice as I understand it. The genetic drift from proto chicken to chicken likely means that there is no single instance of proto chicken birthing chicken, even if you could fully sequence the DNA of every proto chicken. It's kind of an inconvenient issue with DNA taxonomy, because if we really did have that full DNA history, there would likely be several different populations with overlapping genetics and we might actually choose to draw that line for a number of different mutation combinations when they start statistically creating certain traits, instead of a single mutation. But oh no now we are back to descriptive taxonomy so let's just move on.

    The reality is that we haven't really observed speciation in a controlled setting, so the current framework almost requires us to sample the evolutionary timeline at long intervals, or it starts to get sloppy.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (1 child)

    Depends on your definition of "chicken egg". Language is defined by the way people use it and nobody (other than perhaps a few people in this thread) has ever bothered defining what a chiclen egg is: Is it an egg laid by a chicken or is it an egg that contains a chicken

    When you go to the supermarket you call that a chicken egg because it was laid by a chicken, even if the egg is incapable of ever containing a chicken (at least from what I know you can't grow chickens from supermarket eggs) So arguably that means eggs laid by chickens are chicken eggs. But nobody has ever had to define whether an egg containing a chicken is also a chicken egg, even if the egg was not laid by a chicken. So if you don't define an egg laid by a proto-chicken to be a chicken egg then you would say that the chicken came before the egg.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 23 points 8 months ago (5 children)

    Oh wow, this is much simpler explanation than the obtuse one I use: "1st chicken ever definitely came from an egg but the creature that laid that egg wasn't a chicken."

  • source
  • hideshow 5 child comments
  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (4 children)

    That depends on semantics.

    Is a chicken egg an egg laid by a chicken, or an egg that hatches a chicken?

    The answer to that question changes the answer to the original question

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 4 child comments
  • [–] 6 points 8 months ago (3 children)

    Who introduced "chicken egg"? The original question just says egg.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 3 child comments
  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (2 children)

    I get that that's the premise of the joke.
    But that not the premise of the dilemma, which pretty clearly implies it's a chicken egg.

    The dilemma would have no meaning of it was "what came first? The chicken or the horseshoe crab egg?"

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 8 points 8 months ago (2 children)
  • [–] 7 points 8 months ago

    The rooster came first

  • source
  • [+] 12 points 8 months ago (1 child)
  • [–] 6 points 8 months ago

    that's not the question though. you're going against grice's maxims.

  • source
  • [–] 6 points 8 months ago (10 children)

    OK but what did the first egg laying animal come out of.

  • source
  • hideshow 10 child comments
  • [–] 11 points 8 months ago (8 children)

    Some non-egg laying animal gave birth to an egg laying animal due to a beneficial mutation. So the "chicken" (or rather, any egg laying animal) came first.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 8 child comments
  • [–] 6 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    I’m laughing my ass off rn because I’m imagining this process happening today like imagine giving birth to your daughter the normal way and she gives birth by laying eggs

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 5 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    Not exactly, they produced eggs just not with the hard outer shell built for dry air filled environment. THATS where the next land dwelling being came from.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (4 children)

    I disagree, i think a chicken is the animal that comes from an egg and then lays an egg (to start the cycle anew).
    If the first animal you call a chicken isnt hatched from an egg then i think its not a chicken, but a predecessor.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 4 child comments
  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (3 children)

    That chicken's parent laid an egg though so it wasn't the first egg laying animal.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 3 child comments
  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (2 children)

    Correct, not the first egg laying animal, however the first chicken was hatched from a chicken egg.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    No, I don't think I'd agree. Something gave birth to something with a mutation that caused it to lay eggs that we'd call chicken eggs that produce chicken. Itself was born from a creature that didn't lay chicken eggs.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago

    Well now i think im inclined to agree with you.
    I have been defining it as a true chicken is the animal that came from the egg and reproduces the same animal in egg form.

    But if you were to say instead that the final mutation that created the gentically distinct animal we call a chicken, would still be that animal regardless of how it was created.
    Similar to if a chain of self replicating robots is traced back to the origonal unit, its still a self replicating robot even if the first was built by hands.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 6 points 8 months ago (7 children)

    This is why I say a much more interesting question is what came first, the chicken or the chicken egg?

    It entirely depends on your definition of a chicken egg. Is a chicken egg an egg that hatches a chicken, or an egg that is laid by a chicken? If it is an egg that hatches a chicken then the chicken egg came first, but if it is an egg that is laid by a chicken then the chicken came first

  • source
  • hideshow 7 child comments
  • [–] 5 points 8 months ago

    If a chicken egg is an egg that hatches into a chicken, then unfertilized chicken eggs would not be chicken eggs. But if you took an alligator egg and transplanted a developing chicken embryo into it, that would become a chicken egg.
    You'd get the heuristic "All chickens have hatched from chicken eggs", which sounds pretty elegant.

    If a chicken egg is an egg laid by a chicken, then you couldn't reliably say that a chicken egg hatches into a chicken - the heuristic from before would become "Not all chickens have hatched from chicken eggs". And that one, while it feels a bit imprecise, might be closer to what we observe in reality, especially with that Proto-chicken argument. So the Proto-chicken would have laid a Proto-chicken egg, which hatched into a chicken, which laid chicken eggs.
    And it would work with the current scientific hijinks like hatching chickens from different eggs or straight from test tubes.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 4 points 8 months ago (3 children)

    I fool-proofed the question..."Which came first, the egg of a chicken, or the chicken?". And you can't say they use eggs in dinosaur shaped pasta. /s

  • source
  • hideshow 3 child comments
  • [–] 5 points 8 months ago* (2 children)

    In that case the chicken came first, regardless of how we define "chicken", we can reuse that definition for the first "chicken egg" it laid.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 4 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    But how do we define a "chicken egg"? Is it an egg containing a chicken, or an egg that's been laid by a chicken?

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago

    Good point. Now I'm less sure.

    I guess any "egg containing a chicken" came first, by definition. I don't think I would accept anything that didn't come from an egg as my canonical first chicken, anyway.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 12 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    I've always understood this debate as a veiled religious thing. Chicken = religion, god creates chickens; or Egg = science, animals are products of evolution, and thus naturally the egg must come first.

  • source
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 7 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    I've always interpreted this as more of a metaphorical question.

    However, this general response is where I usually take things if pushed for an answer. Meaning, egg laying species existed for hundreds of millions of years before chickens and chickens evolved from egg laying species, so the egg came first.

    A lot of people try to interpret this on the micro scale view: The idea that there was one specific event (place, time, individual) where a non-chicken laid the first egg that hatched out to became the first chicken.

    The reality of the situation is counterintuitive, though. Life, nature, and even taxonomy are so much more complex that this situation. It can be hard to conceptualize, but there literally never was a case where a non-chicken laid an egg, and the resulting offspring was the first chicken ever.

    The species concept really only applies on a population level (barring exceptions like cases where there's literally only 1 known living individual remaining of a soon to be extinct species). And furthermore, taxonomy is an artificial, human concept -- nature does not abide -- and a bit of an art at that. Even if we could somehow scale back in time and view every individual in the chicken lineage as far back as we desire and in much detail as we desired, there would be no consensus on where in that mess chickens emerged from non-chickens.

    So, this is one of those cases where I would actually advise -- don't think too hard about it or take it too seriously and accept the question for its metaphorical nature.

  • source
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 4 points 8 months ago

    And there is evolution to take note of too. The chickens that were alive back then could look very different to the chickens we have today. We say the word "chicken", and we think of the chickens that you see at farms, or sometimes in the wild, with no thought at all to the details. True, one could argue that chickens have not undergone any evolution, and were as they are today, but there are several flaws in that reasoning. First, every animal has been a certain way, but, as time passes and their environment changes, they must change as well. Here's an example of natural selection, for those who are not as well versed in the matter of evolution.

    Say there are white squirrels. They have lived there for hundreds of years, and therefore adapted to accommodate the forest. One day, a paper mill is built next to the forest where they reside, and spews pollution out. Over time, the trees of the forest, once elm white, are not soot black. The white squirrels are then hunted because they can no longer blend in with their environment. Soon, black squirrels are born. They can now blend in with the trees, and are killed less often. The white squirrels are hunted until there is no more left.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago

    Daddy chicken did

  • source
  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago

    Eggs appear to have existed before we split from them, that's why monotremes are a thing

  • source
  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    So birds and crocodiles had one mother.

  • source
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago* (1 child)

    which came first, the platypus or the egg?

  • source
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • load more comments
    view more: next ›