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[–] 89 points 9 months ago (14 children)

If one paycheck is all that stands between half of the people and homelessness, can it really be called the "middle" class?

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  • [–] 55 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 child)

    There was an article with a pretty compelling argument a while ago that basically said the true poverty line in the US is over 100.000$/year family income (when you look at what that number was originally supposed to measure). Below that you're getting fucked left and right.

    Every dollar a family earns between 40k and 100k makes them poorer, because it triggers benefit losses (like health care & child care) that exceed income gains.

    So what the US reports as "the middle class" are actually the working poor

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  • [–] 17 points 9 months ago

    I was reading Michael Roberts’ blog the other day, and he pointed out something similar. The official calculations for inflation significantly understate it for various reasons. However, if you look at actual labor hours needed to cover the essentials of life, and you use the median income amount from 1950 (for the US), then that number comes out about $102k per year. Said another way, for a standard of living based on real life, to have the standard of the median American in 1950, you would need to earn over $100k today. But if you take that 1950 median income and just adjust it for official inflation, you only get to like $42k.

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  • [–] 35 points 9 months ago* (3 children)

    So I learned it this way:

    Upper Class - can live a luxurious life without working at all, and even have domestic employees etc.

    Middle Class - can live comfortably but only if they work

    Lower class - cannot live comfortably even if they work, and can very easily end up homeless (no social safety net)

    The dude who taught me this was my Sociology of Work teacher over twenty years ago.

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  • [+] 22 points 9 months ago (3 children)
  • [–] 5 points 9 months ago

    I was just trying to offer a quick explanation/summary of the concepts or the main distinguishing external features of each class, because I see a lot of confusion and wrong self-perception. I see a lot of people saying they're "mid to upper class" because they can afford a nice home and two cars. Just looking at how much money they have, not how do they have it or whether they can maintain that without working. Obviously to understand class and social stratification you have to read more. I am aware that the upper class are there because of the work of the lower classes and the surplus etc. I'm not obscuring anything, just offering some definitions. Sorry if it didn't come out that way.

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  • [–] -1 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    Class traditionally

    It only refers to how we engage with societal production in a handful of belief systems such as Marxism. These are different from how Anthropologists view class which is different from how sociologists view class and all of the above are different from how many older societies viewed class.

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  • [+] 32 points 9 months ago (1 child)
  • [–] 9 points 9 months ago

    I certainly don't disagree, but I think it's very useful to highlight how this has changed (IMO) in recent decades. I think there was a time when the boomer generation was earning relatively good incomes that allowed them to live comfortably and accumulate wealth (mainly in houses and the stock market). I think this arrangement between capital and the (predominantly white) working class created a situation where even those workers without much wealth could be "bought off" and swear allegiance to capitalism. This wasn't sustainable of course, as the postwar industrial boom and then the gains from neoliberalism were never sustainable. Couple that with the fall of the Eastern Bloc and with it the "threat of a good example", and I would say that this arrangement lasted as late as the GFC at most. I think this helps explain how older people today - even if they are solidly working class - might still be hostile to anything they think is "socialism" while younger generations do not share those opinions, it seems.

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  • [–] 4 points 9 months ago*

    There's only two classes. There's nothing in the middle.

    If you're in doubt which class you belong to, look at the paycheck. Does it have your name on it? Then you're one of the ones who get paid.

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago

    It's better to think of working, middle, and upper class in terms of how much of their income derives from labour vs capital.

    Working class = majority of income from working.

    Upper class = majority of income from owning capital, i.e. can afford not to work at all.

    Middle = somewhat evenly split.

    Traditionally working class was associated with "lower" jobs such as labourers, and those working cushy office jobs usually earnt a high enough income to accumulate enough capital to become middle or upper class.

    This is more aligned with the British definition, where their "middle class" is more equivalent to the US "upper middle class." Make no mistake though, with many jobs not paying enough to accumulate capital, professionals such as teachers, accountants, and nurses would firmly be considered working class, because they you know, need to work.

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    [–] 49 points 9 months ago (5 children)

    Hence why some of the US simply CAN'T protest. If they miss a single pay check-- or get fired for missing work-- they're fucked. Insurance is also tired to work.

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  • [–] 29 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    My dudes, you have nothing to lose but your Chains.

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  • [–] 77 points 9 months ago (3 children)
  • [–] 16 points 9 months ago

    Just keep working harder! It'll trickle down!

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  • [–] 32 points 9 months ago

    Been waiting over a year!

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  • [–] 12 points 9 months ago

    Brits and Germans too.

    Canadians and Australians too while we're at it. ... And and and and and...

    But sure. First rule of triage, tend to the most in danger first.

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  • [–] 32 points 9 months ago (24 children)

    Fuck it. Chips on the table, china taking over america would be a net positive at this point. I've never bought into the "country bad because ideology different" bullshit we're fed here in the us. As I can see from here, just about any other large nation assuming control would bring me everything I ask my government for as a default.

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  • [+] 23 points 9 months ago (5 children)
  • [–] -1 points 9 months ago (4 children)

    Maybe the Chinese proletariat can launch a concurrent revolution to overthrow Xi.

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  • [+] 10 points 9 months ago (4 children)
  • [–] -3 points 9 months ago (3 children)

    I didn't seriously consider that they would just like I wouldn't seriously consider White Americans in the 1950's launching a revolution. China has high propaganda and they're at the part of both industrialization and capitalism where average people see benefit from both.

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  • [+] 4 points 9 months ago (3 children)
  • [–] -3 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    China isn’t capitalist

    That's delusional

    the working classes are in charge of the state

    The party is in charge of the state. The working class have vanishingly little power.

    A revolution would be devastating for the Chinese working classes.

    That's what the Ruling Class in every country says. Can't let everyday people get too uppity

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  • [–] 3 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    It's genuinely sad to see people who have been so traumatized by living in an epicenter of capitalist profiteering, gaslighting propaganda, and government violence that they can't imagine a society that doesn't work that way. You think this is a normal way for a government to be, and you think the smart thing to do is assume everyone is like the US.

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  • [–] -2 points 9 months ago

    that they can’t imagine a society that doesn’t work that way

    Well I'm imagining a classless, borderless society where everyone's needs are met and it is fantastic.

    You think this is a normal way for a government to be

    Nothing about the US government is normal unless in the context of an Empire rapidly approaching the point of collapse.

    and you think the smart thing to do is assume everyone is like the US

    I have enough knowledge to know that in both better and worse situations, other countries do things often very different and assume as much but try not to assume details. Luckily I'm well read.

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago (17 children)

    Trading late stage capitalism for mid stage capitalism and a pre-existing merger of state and corporate power doesn't sound like a permanent fix. Also, deposing a strongman in favor a system that has reestablished it's leadership as a strongman is not an improvement.

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  • [+] 8 points 9 months ago (9 children)
  • [+] -6 points 9 months ago (8 children)

    They have a Strongman because Xi went to great efforts to sideline people or policies that served as a check to his power. Something that would have been unthinkable in China at any point after Mao and before Xi.

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  • [+] 8 points 9 months ago (8 children)
  • [+] -7 points 9 months ago (7 children)

    Just years of reading. That you bring up the anti-corruption campaign means you're at least familiar with allegations that Xi unevenly applied the campaign against his political opponents. As a side not, I'll say the anti-corruption campaigns in China are definitely popular and also one clear situation where improvements in computer technology made a major advance in society and peoples quality of life. Corruption of low level officials was hard to root out when the people would be making complaints to other corrupt low level officials and risking retaliation in the process. Computer technology helped bypass that.

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  • [+] 7 points 9 months ago (7 children)
  • [–] -4 points 9 months ago (6 children)

    You're whole persona is pushing the party line and pushing back against any dissent. I didn't expect you to see any evidence.

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  • [–] 3 points 9 months ago (4 children)

    "Uhh well you're a commie, I don't need to present any evidence because you wouldn't listen anyway!"

    Fantastically lazy copium, do better

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  • [–] -1 points 9 months ago (3 children)

    No, Cowbee in particular. I get along quite nice with communist for the most part.

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    Just as long as they don't refute the red scare bullshit you're selling

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  • [–] -1 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    Just as long as they support the worker class instead of brutalize them. Just as long as political power belongs to the people and not to the party elite.

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

    The classic thing where you think you're owning communism by describing capitalismwoth communist terms. Meanwhile, people in communist countries (especially those with the power to resist our imperial fuckery 🇨🇳)are quite content with the governments they run.

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  • [–] 3 points 9 months ago (5 children)

    I think you underestimate the term "improvement". Lossing two fingers instead of three is an improvement. 8inches from the ledge is better than 4inches from the ledge even if either measure isn't even one whole step. If in never going to see best then I'll take any better I can get.

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  • [–] -4 points 9 months ago (4 children)

    A permanently better world is possible so why settle for a temporary better situation with little hope for further improvement? Why insist people have to lose fingers when no one losing fingers is achievable and not at all far fetched?

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    That's like insinuating that I refuse to lose weight because I can't lose 60lbs today. I'm literally saying I will take any movement what so ever if it means movement.

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    [–] 10 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    I don't care who does IT. I would worship the brave soul who puts that orange cancer out of our collective misery.

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  • [–] 4 points 9 months ago

    What's the context?

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  • [+] 19 points 9 months ago (6 children)
  • [–] 16 points 9 months ago

    This is what happens when instead of material analysis you default to mainstream media to be honest about its geopolitical enemies.

    No one is saying we'll like it if China does bad shit in other countries, but they haven't invaded anywhere in decades even when provoked. Meanwhile the US bombs a few countries a year, and launches a full on invasion every few years, not to mention the unilateral illegal sanctions they impose which kill over half a million people every year. When China does nearly a tiny fraction of that we can talk. In the meantime you're just repeating western propaganda. China develops our countries, the US coups or invades them.

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  • [–] 6 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

    IDK, maybe because they got like 800 million people out of poverty in ~40 years? Meanwhile, the USA just accepted 50 years ago that 10-15% of their population will be poor regardless of being the richest country by GDP in the world since before then.

    Maybe.

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    [–] 2 points 9 months ago

    Who's the lady in the picture?

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago
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