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[–] 45 points 10 months ago (2 children)

Time for my favorite Rousseau quote baby:

The first man who, having enclosed a piece of ground, bethought himself of saying "This is mine", and found people simple enough to believe him, was the real founder of civil society. From how many crimes, wars, and murders, from how many horrors and misfortunes might not any one have saved mankind, by pulling up the stakes, or filling up the ditch, and crying to his fellows: "Beware of listening to this impostor; you are undone if you once forget that the fruits of the earth belong to us all, and the earth itself to nobody!"

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    [–] 88 points 10 months ago (3 children)

    At least physical land is an inherently non-fungible thing, while NFTs are only a non-fungible piece of code people claim ties to something else of value. The real original NFTs are intellectual property, as they're just the government saying you can't copy things that are totally possible to copy.

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  • [–] 33 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    At least physical land is an inherently non-fungible thing, while NFTs are only a non-fungible piece of code people claim ties to something else of value.

    Well its really the land "deed" you own, which is entirely fungible (though managed as a non-fungible item through state enforced violence).

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  • [–] 15 points 10 months ago

    The NFT is a non-fungible paper that says "you own this thing everyone can use", and as soon as you make that thing private, the NFT instantly loses its value.

    A land deed is a "non-fungible" paper that says "you own this thing everyone can use", and as soon as you make that thing private, the deed massively appreciates in value.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago

    Well, yes, land is managed through state enforced violence but also the laws of physics. There's only so much that can fit on an area of land. If I build a house that takes up the full extent of the property, then nobody else can use the land for, say, a parking lot without me removing my house first. Every bit of land used/bought is a reduction in the amount of land left to buy. But a JPG can have unlimited copies made of it, providing unlimited storage. If I make a copy of a NFT image, I don't deprive the owner of the image. If I buy a piece of land and use it, I'm kind of depriving others from use of that land.

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  • [–] 24 points 10 months ago (3 children)

    What exactly do you think any ownership is if not the threat of social pressure and government violence enforcing property rights?

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  • [–] 6 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    The US is just a NFT scam with an army is not the worst summary.

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  • [–] 16 points 10 months ago* (2 children)

    If someone steals a physical land deed, there are relatively simple-to-understand methods of recourse for the original owner which will fix the issue.

    If someone steals your NFT, then there’s virtually no chance of just identifying the culprit. And even if you could somehow find them, if they don’t live in the same jurisdiction as you then you’re still never getting it back.

    Also you can’t right-click copy and paste land.

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  • [–] 13 points 10 months ago

    Land is useful tho

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  • [–] 12 points 10 months ago

    yup. Without a body willing to commit violence to uphold ownership there is no ownership.

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  • [–] 12 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    Many people would suggest that walking on someone else's land is a bad move. While you can walk on it, the fact that human history is full of blood feuds and killings sparked by trespassing suggests it's not that simple.

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  • [–] 11 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    Not quite. I believe the historical consensus is that if you can defend it, you own it.

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  • [–] 43 points 10 months ago (4 children)

    The American mind can't comprehend the freedom to roam.

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  • [–] 5 points 10 months ago

    Property is theft, property is liberty, property is impossible

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  • [–] 15 points 10 months ago (6 children)

    Interestingly, NFTs could solve a lot of issues with deeds. This was posted on reddit some years ago

    Spent some time working in real estate fraud. Your question [regarding somebody hacking your wallet and stealing the deed] creates a scary scenario but let me assure it isn't better now. You would be surprised at how hilariously easy it is to get on title for a property and start fucking with it.

    All I need is the current owners information (public record) and I can go record a deed right now. Its called a wild deed and while they don't usually cause any trouble if your state laws are decent you can very easily wake up to someone else's name on your title and an annoying legal process to clear it.

    It happens by accident ALL the time and people usually don't realize it until they try to refinance.

    AINs that are different by a single digit are more than common. Deeds can be hand-written and there is a lot of room for human error in the recording process.

    "Is that a 6 or a 0?" - Registrar employee about to ruin your month.

    Now your neighbor "owns" your property, your lender is sending you angry letters, and you have a court date just to delete a document with a typo on it.

    This is before we get into criminals actually trying to steal from you. The damage can be catastrophic. You will lose your home if you sign the wrong paper or (more recently) put your thumb on the wrong ipad.

    There are issues here for sure but don't think a paper deed in a lockbox is much safer than an nft. It's just how we've always done it.

    While I think the collectable NFT craze has crashed and burned, it was an interesting experiment. I think NFTs in some way have a use case. While not specifically an NFT, Buenos Aires for example rolled out crypto/blockchain backed Identification.

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  • [–] 7 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (5 children)

    I'm not sure NFTs specifically are the right solution for this though, because the ultimate legal authority for property ownership remains the state, which could easily get out of sync with transactions that are valid on the blockchain but which are not legally recognized. Like if your crypto wallet gets stolen and someone transfers your properties, or if property NFTs are transferred in spite of creditors having a legal claim to them, the state of the network is going to be superceded by the law, which would end up with a confusing mess and probably adding requirements for the system to incorporate centralized control and reversibility, defeating the point of it being a NFT.

    A simpler improvement would be to require that all updates to property records be simply published onchain, by whatever authority otherwise has the power to manage property ownership (read-only for everyone else). Changes could be made, errors could be fixed, but the record of the state of the system would be permanently and irrevocably available for anyone to view and verify, which is the main thing NFTs would potentially bring to the table here anyway. You don't need the part where it is a permissionlessly transferable token tied to a crypto wallet.

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago (4 children)

    If I'm interpreting your improvement correctly, that's kind of how real estate property records already work (in my state in the US at least). As it stands now, a clerk at a county register of deeds office will record practically anything that you pay them to record. They do not interpret what is or isn't a fraudulent deed, for example, because that would expose the clerk and the state to liability. If issues arise about ownership, that's what the courts are for. Anyone can go down to the register of deeds' office (or in some cases access the records online) and view the deeds because they're public record. Other government entities, like the county assessor, will normally also make available a simple chain of title that shows you every deed/transfer of that property when you look it up by parcel number, address, owner name, etc. If a deed does wind up being determined to be fraudulent, normally the court order declaring it fraudulent and making a current ownership interpretation will also be recorded at the register's office (those are called quiet title cases because the court is "quieting" all other parties who are alleged to have or claiming to have an interest in the property). So there's both a public chain and a method of clearing up any inconsistencies in the chain.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago* (3 children)

    They do not interpret what is or isn’t a fraudulent deed, for example, because that would expose the clerk and the state to liability.

    Well who does? Is it really a situation where the only way to correct mistakes is a lawsuit and there is no system for preventing mistakes to begin with? Maybe some form of cryptographic verification from the owner would actually be helpful here.

    (or in some cases access the records online)

    The main thing is that they could do a lot better than that by guaranteeing access to the records and hard proof they haven't been altered or removed, and making those records reliably available to people who want to interact with them programmatically, which would be accomplished by putting them on a major blockchain.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    Mistakes can be corrected with a re-recorded deed or a recorded scrivener's affidavit. All of these instruments have to be notarized, so a clerk will check for a notary's stamp but these can also be faked or the notary themself can be tricked with fake IDs when they're witnessing the doc signing. Fraud is what has to be taken to court to fix. And most fraud in a chain of title is going to be pretty easy to spot when doing a title search, but like the original post says, most of the time the owner might not ever notice it's happened until they go to refinance or sell and the lender or purchaser orders a title search. Or someone comes knocking on their door to put up a for sale sign insisting that they own this house lol. If someone buys the property from the fraudster and doesn't get a title search done and title insurance (this is incredibly dumb, get a title search done if you ever buy real estate for this and many other reasons), then they may not find out they don't even own it until they go to sell it. Or it could pass through multiple people's/entity's hands if nobody is getting a title search. They'll all need to end up in court to get their money back. There are some registers who offer a sort of notification system for if your property gets transferred, but even still it just notifies you when the deed has been done (literally).

    I think that creating a block chain could improve some aspects of real estate transfer, like needing to even do a title search, but I don't 100% understand the nuances of how they work and would have questions about what sort of problems might arise if someone loses whatever key they use to access it or if they die or something and don't leave a will with the key behind. Wouldn't that create issues that would need a court to get involved to determine ownership?

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (1 child)

    I guess that would depend on whether and how key signing by the owner is incorporated into the system. The way I imagine it working is, when purchasing a property you can (optionally?) cryptographically sign the document, probably with a hardware wallet that you would then keep in a safe somewhere. The hardware wallet contains the private key, the public key is added to the document which would be further signed by the notary in the same way before being put on the blockchain. You can then do things like sign listings for selling the property to prove to prospective buyers that you are the current owner (they can verify that your signature matches the key on the document, and the document is also signed by a known authority), and sign documents for selling it with your key.

    If the key is lost, then in order to sell the property you would probably have to go through some kind of correction process, and an updated document with the new key/signature or that says a key is no longer being used, and has a reference to the old document it's superseding, is put on the blockchain. Probably this process should involve extra scrutiny about your identity. If it's stolen and the thief starts using it, I guess same thing plus legal proceedings, but there should be systems to automatically notify you in various ways if anything is happening (and if the documents are on the blockchain, you can even poll for these notifications yourself without relying on any government servers). If you die and the key is lost, same kind of deal, correction process with a new document uploaded. Actual enforcement in practice of a valid signature being required could mostly be automatically handled by websites for real estate listings; if the latest document says the owner's cryptographic signature is required for sale, that signature could also be required to even make the listing.

    Validity of notary keys would be a little trickier, but you could have something like a hierarchy of keys that sign metadata about which lower level keys are valid for which time ranges and which of their transactions have been revoked. If the highest level key in the hierarchy is compromised, a new one gets issued and the event is communicated to the public through official channels so everyone can update all their software to use the new one and ignore the old one. Because this is a possibility, and because anything recorded could be superseded by a correction, this type of system would not be suitable for other smart contracts to interact with directly, so unlike something with NFTs you wouldn't easily be able to trade properties on DeFi markets (which for previously mentioned reasons and others I don't think would work well anyway).

    My own experience with the process of buying property was that it's pretty sketchy; most of it happened remotely, and the main way I had of confirming that the deal was legit as advised by my real estate agent was, iirc, stuff like that the title company's website was highly ranked on google and had a domain name with few letters and listed their phone number, but these things are not a hard guarantee. I do think there is room for improvement.

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago

    this one is sooo good, i downloaded. the greatest honor i can hand out.....

    thanks for sharing <3

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago

    What the Fiat

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  • [+] 10 points 10 months ago (1 child)
  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago

    (Not arguing against your central point)

    Personal property is even older: "possession is 9/10ths of the law." Our ancestors would carry around small tools for millions of years before we started making permanent homes.

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  • [–] 0 points 10 months ago

    Is this supposed to sound smart or something? If yes thenI guess I missed it

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  • [–] 0 points 10 months ago

    "owning land" historically was mostly about defending the peasants that lived on that land from external violence threats, for the exchange of natural products (mostly food)

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  • 10 comments in c/mop view that post
    [–] 4 points 10 months ago

    "Real" estate...

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago (8 children)

    I can’t tell if this is saying the commodification of land is a good thing or not 🤔

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago

    Not really a good thing. Ownership is fake, a social contract established between people to avoid conflict or enforced through the threat of conflict. It's not even something guaranteed to be recognized from one person to the next, let alone the often changing governments.

    It's really a form of control and way of extracting value. You work the land, maintain it and pay taxes. But it can be taken from you at any point, for any reason.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (6 children)

    It's definitely anti-land-ownership, which is a little silly because if nobody has any claim to a property then it immediately incentivizes people to trash places and then move on to a place where somebody else was living and maintaining. It's already illegal for people to do that and it still happens.

    Maybe a nice middle ground is limiting land ownership or heavily taxing multiple land ownerships to make it an instant financial loss to do so.

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  • [–] 7 points 10 months ago* (5 children)

    There are ways to incentivize people to care for common resources. See the work of Eleanor Ostrom. Not to mention I've seen plenty of private property that is totally trashed.

    Land ownership (or more accurately, expropriation of land by the wealthy) is one of the biggest roots of all other forms of oppression. Because you can't enslave people if they can just go opt out and live off the land. Many slaves historically did exactly that but the modern state makes this far more difficult today.

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  • [–] 0 points 10 months ago* (4 children)

    It's always a fucking book with you people. Are you really incapable of making a point on your own? Go read Apex Calculus, it'll explain my stance to you.

    Isolated self-reliant communities exist and they are often extremely selective with who they admit because it's hard work and not everyone is cut out for that.

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago*

    Ostrom is a social scientist so I'm just pointing to her years of research documenting communal resource management across the world and throughout history. It's not about argumentation, it's about evidence. I'm not able to replicate her years of research.

    You don't need to read any books but if you are interested, I can provide you with articles or videos. Doesn't sound like it though.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    okay. let's take a step back then away from the books. go have a conversation with an indigenous person about how land-management was done prior to colonization. you might learn some things about how european property rights are a uniquely insidious thing that make up the current hegemonic understanding of how the world works.

    then, when you're ready, go read a history book about the violence that was enacted in order to establish the manors, baronies, and lordships that came to underlie Europe's mercantile and then later capitalist systems of oppression. much of what you are taking as an obvious given about how land management works and should work is extremely recent, and much to the detriment of the local ecologies and ecosystems you think will be better protected as private land.

    the reason people are consistently pointing you to somewhere you can learn something is because you are perpetuating wrong and harmful mistruths about the world, how it works, and how it should work.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago

    It's always a fucking book with you people.

    Maybe you should try reading one, you might learn something. Instead of being a consistently angry loser who gets downvoted in every thread I see you in because of your idiotic takes. Reading other people's ideas doesn't prevent you from having your own.

    Here's a bit from a good book that you can read for free, available in many formats, here:

    https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/petr-kropotkin-the-conquest-of-bread


    Chapter 4: Expropriation
    I
    It is told of Rothschild that, seeing his fortune threatened by the Revolution of 1848, he hit upon the following stratagem: “I am quite willing to admit,” said he, “that my fortune has been accumulated at the expense of others, but if it were divided to-morrow among the millions of Europe, the share of each would only amount to five shillings. Very well, then, I undertake to render to each his five shillings if he asks me for it.”

    Having given due publicity to his promise, our millionaire proceeded as usual to stroll quietly through the streets of Frankfort. Three or four passers-by asked for their five shillings, which he disbursed with a sardonic smile. His stratagem succeeded, and the family of the millionaire is still in possession of its wealth.

    It is in much the same fashion that the shrewd heads among the middle classes reason when they say, “Ah, Expropriation! I know what that means. You take all the overcoats and lay them in a heap, and every one is free to help himself and fight for the best.”

    But such jests are irrelevant as well as flippant. What we want is not a redistribution of overcoats, although it must be said that even in such a case, the shivering folk would see advantage in it. Nor do we want to divide up the wealth of the Rothschilds. What we do want is so to arrange things that every human being born into the world shall be ensured the opportunity in the first instance of learning some useful occupation, and of becoming skilled in it; next, that he shall be free to work at his trade without asking leave of master or owner, and without handing over to landlord or capitalist the lion’s share of what he produces. As to the wealth held by the Rothschilds or the Vanderbilts, it will serve us to organize our system of communal production.

    The day when the labourer may till the ground without paying away half of what he produces, the day when the machines necessary to prepare the soil for rich harvests are at the free disposal of the cultivators, the day when the worker in the factory produces for the community and not the monopolist — that day will see the workers clothed and fed, and there will be no more Rothschilds or other exploiters.

    No one will then have to sell his working power for a wage that only represents a fraction of what he produces.

    “So far so good,” say our critics, “but you will have Rothschilds coming in from outside. How are you to prevent a person from amassing millions in China and then settling amongst you? How are you going to prevent such a one from surrounding himself with lackeys and wage-slaves — from exploiting them and enriching himself at their expense?”

    “You cannot bring about a revolution all over the world at the same time. Well, then, are you going to establish custom-houses on your frontiers to search all who enter your country and confiscate the money they bring with them? — Anarchist policemen firing on travellers would be a fine spectacle!”

    But at the root of this argument there is a great error. Those who propound it have never paused to inquire whence come the fortunes of the rich. A little thought would, however, suffice to show them that these fortunes have their beginnings in the poverty of the poor. When there are no longer any destitute there will no longer be any rich to exploit them.

    Let us glance for a moment at the Middle Ages, when great fortunes began to spring up.

    A feudal baron seizes on a fertile valley. But as long as the fertile valley is empty of folk our baron is not rich. His land brings him in nothing; he might as well possess a property in the moon.

    What does our baron do to enrich himself? He looks out for peasants — for poor peasants!

    If every peasant-farmer had a piece of land, free from rent and taxes, if he had in addition the tools and the stock necessary for farm labour, who would plough the lands of the baron? Everyone would look after his own. But there are thousands of destitute persons ruined by wars, or drought, or pestilence. They have neither horse nor plough. (Iron was costly in the Middle Ages, and a draughthorse still more so.)

    All these destitute creatures are trying to better their condition. One day they see on the road at the confines of our baron’s estate a notice-board indicating by certain signs adapted to their comprehension that the labourer who is willing to settle on this estate will receive the tools and materials to build his cottage and sow his fields, and a portion of land rent free for a certain number of years. The number of years is represented by so many crosses on the sign-board, and the peasant understands the meaning of these crosses.

    So the poor wretches swarm over the baron’s lands, making roads, draining marshes, building villages. In nine years he begins to tax them. Five years later he increases the rent. Then he doubles it. The peasant accepts these new conditions because he cannot find better ones elsewhere; and little by little, with the aid of laws made by the barons, the poverty of the peasant becomes the source of the landlord’s wealth. And it is not only the lord of the manor who preys upon him. A whole host of usurers swoop down upon the villages, multiplying as the wretchedness of the peasants increases. That is how things went in the Middle Ages. And to-day is it not still the same thing? If there were free lands which the peasant could cultivate if he pleased, would he pay £50 to some “shabble of a duke”[2] for condescending to sell him a scrap? Would he burden himself with a lease which absorbed a third of the produce? Would he — on the métayer system — consent to give the half of his harvest to the landowner?

    But he has nothing. So he will accept any conditions, if only he can keep body and soul together, while he tills the soil and enriches the landlord.

    So in the nineteenth century, just as in the Middle Ages, the poverty of the peasant is a source of wealth to the landed proprietor.

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