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[–] 31 points 10 months ago (5 children)

Wait... People are still buying Teslas?

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  • [–] 6 points 10 months ago (3 children)

    Well, Musk's companies sure seem to be buying quite a few, so I'm sure that's helping him too.

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  • [–] 56 points 10 months ago (1 child)
  • [–] 26 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (9 children)

    Tesla is on the way down in every major market China/USA/EU, So it won't be long before Tesla isn't number 2 either. VW is clearly the leader in EU, but they are not so strong in either USA or China. So maybe Hyundai or Toyota will be the next brand to surpass Tesla?

    IMO VW group has the best affordable EV's currently, I just bought a VW ID.4 last month, but if I had the money, I would have bought a BMW or Mercedes. But the ID.4 is still a very nice car and I'm quite happy with it. 😎

    In a few years Tesla will probably be behind BYD, Geely, Xpeng, Toyota, Hyundai and VW group.
    On the technology they are already way behind the Chinese brands on charging, and VW, BMW and Mercedes on quality. Probably also behind Hyundai.
    Toyota is only getting started on BEV, so I'm not really counting them yet. But I am confident they will compete in the top soon.

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    Check price... Start at 41k. Yeah... "Affordable"... Maybe for a rich middle-class man. But for the vast majority, affordable would be around 20-25k brand new, knowing that most lower class families would rather buy a 5-10k used ICE car that a brand new electric car.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago*

    I bought it used at half the price from new. But yes affordable may be overstating it, what I meant was non luxury.
    However there are affordable BEV now that start at half the price of the VW ID.4, and some of them are actually pretty decent.
    I just preferred the bigger more luxurious car used at a similar price.

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  • [–] 5 points 10 months ago* (6 children)

    I think Toyota is still betting on hydrogen? I hope hydrogen can take off in the mass market, soon. It has the potential to be a better energy store than batteries.

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  • [–] 6 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    In the US at least, I really don't see hydrogen ever taking off. Even in California, there's so few stations that you can't really travel from the top of the state to the bottom without going out of your way. The hydrogen fuel stations that are in place are even more expensive than they were a few years ago, if they're still functioning at all. We're talking like $180 USD for the equivalent of a tank of gas, at stations that aren't as convenient as a gas station or an outlet at home. It's even the subject of a lawsuit, which may or may not be successful.

    It seems like hydrogen has already lost the race for the rest of the world, with BEV adoption growing substantially in Europe and China. Personally I wouldn't want my market to rely on solely Japan and a US headed by someone blatantly antagonistic to alternative fuels.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (1 child)

    My impression is that much of the world is more positive on hydrogen than the USA. Toyota seems to be slow-walking EVs in anticipation of hydrogen breakthroughs. Mist of what you say about fuel stations could have been said about charging infrastructure not that long ago.

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  • [–] 5 points 10 months ago

    I'm definitely open to being wrong about the world's impression of hydrogen fuel cell vehicles, but I'm not sure it's borne out in the data. Europe doesn't seem to be adapting it anywhere near the rate at which they've adopted BEVs (I couldn't find a 2025 report in my cursory search, but would love to see one if anyone else finds it), nor does China, which is all in on BEVs. In fact, it seems like California may have more hydrogen fuel cell vehicles alone than all of Europe combined. That's two of the major markets accounted for, but it might be possible to convince the US to adopt hydrogen when they decide they no longer want to be left in the past.

    I'm not sure the infrastructure build out for hydrogen is directly comparable to the charging infrastructure for BEVs. At least some segment of the population has access to charging infrastructure just by virtue of having access to an outlet at their homes, which allows for trickle charging, as well as the option to install a dedicated charger at home that allows for much cheaper charging that's also fast enough to charge from 0-100 overnight, so no need to stop at a fuel station at all. This meant that there were people who were willing to adopt the technology through the growing pains. With hydrogen, you run into a bit of a chicken and the egg problem where companies aren't encouraged to expand infrastructure without adoption rates being high enough and consumers aren't itching to purchase a vehicle where fuel is more expensive and less convenient to access. The refuel card incentives were supposed to get consumers over that hump, but it doesn't seem like it was anywhere near enough. I think the conditions were ripe for an emergent technology to eventually replace ICE vehicles, but hydrogen fueled vehicles were on the back foot to begin with.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

    Toyota came out with their first decent fully battery electric this year, and AFAIK they have more models on the way for next year.
    Problem with Hydrogen is that it has been about the potential for more than 2 decades now. And my guess is that it is even more behind batteries now than it was 20 years ago.
    But there are use cases for hydrogen fuel cells, because of the lower weight, and my guess is the bigger energy waste with Hydrogen will be offset in the future by frequent temporary energy surpluses from renewables that can be used to make cheap hydrogen. But there are infrastructure problems, because it requires investments to go from the relatively easy charging stations for batteries, to transport and storage of hydrogen to enable "tanking up" a hydrogen based car. Also with electricity you can just charge a BEV at home.
    So I still have my doubts about hydrogen, but we will see.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (1 child)

    Toyota have some BEVs currently available, at least the Toyota bZ4x (with Subaru equivalent) and Lexus has the UX 300e and RZ. But certainly a bit late to the BEV party. There's supposed to be some new EV models coming this year.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago

    Toyota’s Bold Bet: Why It’s Doubling Down on Hydrogen as Rivals Go All-Electric

    Toyota’s multi-pathway approach keeps hydrogen fuel cells at the heart of its long-term plan, betting the technology will replace diesel and complement EVs in the next decade.

    Hydrogen is still their focus. EV tech has it’s limitations and hydrogen can or a combination of hydrogen and EV tech could be a stronger strategy, long term.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (2 children)

    Hopefully we can buy them in Canada soon.

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  • [–] [S] 2 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    Yeah, I don't understand the huge tariff on Chinese EVs. They've counter tariffed our canola, hurting the farmers. And we don't produce EVs, at least not the category they make.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago*

    In Europe we do produce EV, so tariffs make sense considering BYD and similar cars price are due to heavy CCP subsidies (direct and indirect). Sure the labor is cheap there, but not enough to sell cars that low.

    You got batteries sold way under manufacturing price, but only for cars build by Chinese manufacturer (foreign manufacturers never get such discounts), you got various subsidies and payment facilities, unrestricted access to China rare earth monopoly, among other schemes.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago

    And they say there's no good news anymore.

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  • [–] -3 points 10 months ago (5 children)

    The real question is how.

    Tesla and BYD are opposed :

    Teslas are efficient, fun and safe to drive,, with great yet restrictive software and mediocre build quality

    BYD are cheap, well built and rather open software... Thats absolutely garbage, and the cars are terrible to drive and inefficient . they feel rushed and underdeveloped basically.

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  • [–] 9 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    How many TSLA shares are you holding?

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  • [–] 0 points 10 months ago

    How much credit score you're gaining with this comment? Stupid question stupid answer

    Check my comment history I hate elon as much as the next guy but I guess facts doesn't matter, glory to the ccp

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  • 27 comments in c/news@lemmy.world view that post
    [–] 51 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    I use to want one of those Plaid Model S and I was even interested in the Cybertruck when first announced. Elon's lies and his fascist fuckery deleted Tesla from consideration for ever. I got a BMW i4 M50 instead.

    Yes, China is competing on price but it is Elon's fuckery that has hurt Tesla the most.

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  • [–] 22 points 10 months ago

    I'm doing my part 🫡

    I wanted a Tesla, but couldn't bring myself to support Musk... so bought a BYD.

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  • [–] 17 points 10 months ago (3 children)

    Tesla’s stock is expected to rise again.

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  • [–] 36 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    Tesla sales dive 75%, Tesla stock rises.

    Tesla sales dive less rapidly, Tesla stock also rises.

    Elon says the most inane shit he's uttered in 48 hours? Believe it or not: Tesla stock rises.

    None of this shit makes sense anymore

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  • [–] 13 points 10 months ago

    I won't buy one of these in the near future, but anything that fucks up Musk's shit is great.

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  • [–] 10 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    And you can't even get them in the US

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  • [–] 7 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    Honestly I have no clue why anyone is still buying a Tesla. Every other brand has their own electric cars now and every Tesla I’ve been in has felt like cheap plastic and the worse pleather seats. They sucked before Elon went full nazi but anyone who walks into a Tesla dealership today is a fool or a racist.

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  • [–] 24 points 10 months ago (12 children)

    As A Guy hating Musk with all my heart, I have mixed feelings about these news. In one hand, I love seeing the rat loose leverage on important markets for tesla. On the other hand, the one they are loosing to, is fucking china, which I am hating only a little less.. EU manufactures needs to step up!

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  • [–] 35 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (10 children)

    I wish. 😕

    BMW and Volkswagen just lobbied the EU to delay the death of combustion engines, and… the EU went for it.

    Meanwhile Chinese auto companies keep on improving their tech, so I can’t possibly see how this is any good. We are just getting even more behind on the EV competition.

    Some more info:

    https://piefed.social/c/world/p/1576400/eu-drops-2035-combustion-engine-ban-as-global-ev-shift-faces-reset

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  • [–] 19 points 10 months ago* (8 children)

    It is not quite that bleak. They went from 100% EV for all new car sales in 2035, to 90% EVs and 10% being allowed as combustion engine cars.

    That 10%'s emissions also has to be offset by EVs sold. And they are introducing a new M1E category for cars that needs to be Electric, European-built, and under 4.2 meters in length (Volkswagen Golf or smaller essentially). Each M1E car sold will count for 1.3 regular cars sold in terms of offset.

    So essentially Europe is dangling a carrot to produce small, European-made EVs for the car manufacturers. And car manufacturers still need to produce 90% of their cars as EVs

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  • [–] 13 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (4 children)

    It is not quite that bleak. They went from 100% EV for all new car sales in 2035, to 90% EVs and 10% being allowed as combustion engine cars.

    It's not 10% of combustion engine cars being allowed. The entire car fleet produced after 2035 was supposed to carbon neutral but now the goal is 90% reduction. The estimates I've seen say that with the new rules 20% of cars will use combustion engine after 2035. The 100% CO2 reduction is no longer planned at all.

    What this means in reality is that the industry can keep making combustion engine cars forever. There will not be any hard limit on the numbers of combustion engine cars sold, it will be still be up to the consumers. To compete with China on EVs European companies would have to invest a lot of money into it and they don't want to do it. This is basically their way of backing out of the competition. People will keep buying gasoline cars and the industry will say "what can we do? people don't want to buy electric cars. we missed the targets, sorry". When this happens they hope EU will move the targets again. This most likely means that the automotive industry in EU will die and people running it know it but just want to suck as much profits out of it as possible before it happens.

    We'll see how it all ends. Right now best case scenario is that automakers in EU go bankrupt as fast as possible, Germany looses leadership position in EU and stops fucking things up for everyone.

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  • [–] 5 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (3 children)

    This still seems fine... At that rate, electric will start to greatly outnumber ice cars. That has all kinds of knockon effects, for instance, selling fewer ice cars means their replacement parts will be less available, maintenance will get more expensive. Manufacturing these cars will also become more expensive because you'll lose some economy of scale benefits. So, ice cars get more expensive, while evs get cheaper. Meanwhile, petrol stations get significantly less business from petrol sales, it will become not economical for many stations to continue to maintain all their equipment. Some stations will close down.

    The cars will get more expensive, the fuel harder to find, and I'm sure there are other things that will change as well. There will be enough incentives to make the remaining drivers switch over soon enough.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (2 children)

    Those are the predictions I found:

    Basically 17% ICE cars forever. This is pretty much the share EVs have in EU now and today EVs don't really struggle with replacement parts or charging infrastructure. ICE cars don't need as many stations so even if many closes they will be fine.

    And I think this prediction is very optimistic. Once you leave the door open everyone will try to get their foot in the door. For example with total ban gas stations would be forced to adapt and roll out chargers but now they can also stall. I can already see it. Gas stations are perfect places to put charges but few of them do it. If they do it's often in the city, not along highways which is stupid and their chargers are the least reliable. I makes perfect sense: they want to cash in the incentives for building charges but don't want to actually help EV cars. With the new proposal we will see more of it. They got 90%, now they will try to get 80% or 70%. The entire industry will work to slow down the transition and make more money.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (1 child)

    I think that’s a very strange prediction that looks like it basically assumes market share is only influenced by regulations. Gas stations losing 83% of their customers is a huge change with cascading effects, but this chart looks like it assumes combustion engines will just stay popular forever, only bounded by production limited by regulation…

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

    Gas stations losing 83% of their customers is a huge change with cascading effect

    That's just your guess. When ICE car displays low fuel warning you can still drive for about 60 km and in my experience you can easily reach 2-3 gas stations. Where I live there are 5 gas stations within 2 km radius. It's typical to have two gas stations on both sides of the highway. When it comes to car charges the GOAL is to have one every 50 km but it's still not there. When there is a charger it's only on one side of the road or even couple kilometers off the highway, in some town. Yet we still have about ~16% of electric cars on the roads. Even with 80% less gas stations ICE drivers would still be in a pretty good situation, similar to the situation of EV drivers now. On top of that gas stations double as service stations. People stop there to buy drinks, food, wipers fluid, pump their tiers or wash their car. I never saw w charging stations offer any of that. Gas stations make majority of their profits from their convenience stores and services. So it's really hard to say what effect losing 80% of cars will have. A lot of gas stations will close, some will transform into service stations with chargers and some will probably stay as they are.

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  • [–] 4 points 10 months ago

    I hate Tesla 🤮

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  • [–] 4 points 10 months ago

    Ketamine’s a hell of a drug!

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  • 11 comments in c/world@lemmy.world view that post
    [–] 13 points 10 months ago (8 children)

    set to I thought it was done in 2025.

    They have a very agressive marketing strategy, competitive (subsidised?) price, and an offer including car for people who aren't fucking rich.

    Not that they're nicer than American, but in the end when people need to carry their family, price loins the game

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  • [–] 23 points 10 months ago (7 children)

    Always amused at the "Subsidised" cracks with the Chinese automakers like Tesla wasn't subsidised up the wazoo. It's like the only crime is passing on the saving. Not saying you are doing that here, but it's odd it comes up so much.

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  • [–] 21 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    I also find it hilarious that every global multinational offshored everything they possibly could to China, thus their own operations are directly subsidised by the CCP and Chinese labor, yet they cry foul when consumers buy from them directly.

    "Sure we cut 90% of our western workforce, dramatically reduced the quality of jobs and pay for the remaining 10%, directly financing and empowering the CCP for decades, and kept all the profits for ourselves, but consumers are the terrible ones for not supporting our skeleton onshore operation (which we will automate 100% of if able to)"

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (3 children)

    Wasn't Tesla subsidized on the buyer side? Meaning people had freedom of choice. Other EVs were also subsidized.

    The issue with the Chinese EVs are that the competition doesn't get these subsidies. No other government can afford to subsidise an entire auto industry including exports, to this degree. China's goal is to drive competitors out of business - after that they can jack up the prices. Whereas if you get an EV purchase subsidy, those generally don't discriminate between brands so the goal is to increase EV adoption.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (2 children)

    Nope. Buyer and sell side. Federal interest free loan, state business tax credits etc - they got 200 million pounds in grants in the UK alone. Buyer side was on top. Hell they lied about sales in Canada to try and claw in undeserved subsidies before the programme closed.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (1 child)

    Were those UK grants only available to them, or were they available to all EVs regardless of country of origin?

    Because the Chinese subsidies are only for Chinese EVs. That's what makes the whole situation so unbalanced.

    Federal interest free loans and state tax credits are, of course, subsidies that the US used to protect its auto industry. But here in the EU we've had tariffs on American cars this entire time too.

    No nation or bloc of nations wants to lose its own industry to competitors that can literally afford to sell their products at a loss. That's the issue. It's the tech enshittification model all over again: Offer something for free or cheap, get entrenched, enshittify to make profits.

    In fact I think it behooves any country to tariff cars that are heavily subsidized by their manufacturers' origin countries, and then use that money to offer an origin-neutral EV subsidy. Use China's money to make all EVs cheaper instead of having really cheap Chinese EVs.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago

    Just them. I wasn't really arguing for or against subsidies though, just the absurdity of it being called out so often when Tesla et al got subsidised too. You can split hairs all you like on the nature of those subsidies, but they absolutely did get them. They also didn't have to give up a share of the company to get them, unlike all the Chinese automakers, but again that's another complex issue.

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  • [–] 7 points 10 months ago

    Tesla is STILL at the top? We are so fucked.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago

    Amazing how the media ignores the reliability of these EVs, just the purchase price.

    How is a car you need to repurchase every 5 years more affordable?

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  • 4 comments in c/globalnews@lemmy.zip view that post
    [–] 12 points 10 months ago

    Not surprised. One is actively catching up and with tons of accessible option for various income group, one is actively digging their own grave playing politic. From friends and families, BYD is pretty damn good car for the price point. Though i bet it won't be for long that the price will stay that low, it's a multinational conglomerate after all.

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  • [–] 8 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    Have one myself. The hardware is decent, the software is standard modern tech bullshit. Annoying how much control I lack over my own vehicle.

    This is not to say it's better or worse than other EV brands, since I don't have a comparison point.

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