Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy has reaffimed his firm refusal to cede any territory, resisting U.S. pressure for a painful compromise with Russia as he continued to rally European support for Ukraine.

“Undoubtedly, Russia insists for us to give up territories. We, clearly, don’t want to give up anything. That’s what we are fighting for,” Zelenskyy said in a WhatsApp chat late Monday in which he answered reporters’ questions.

“Do we consider ceding any territories? According to the law we don’t have such right. According to Ukraine’s law, our constitution, international law, and to be frank, we don’t have a moral right either.”

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[–] 59 points 11 months ago (6 children)

The biggest loss of the Trump administration will be that the rest of the world realized they could go on without America.

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  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago

    IMO that is the biggest success. We have gone on too long having too much sway in the world. Power we have proven over and over and over that we are not responsible enough to wield.

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  • [–] 43 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (4 children)

    When a home invader breaks in, just let him keep the living room, as long as he stays out of the kitchen and bedrooms. It's a reasonable compromise.

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  • [–] 9 points 11 months ago (3 children)

    This reads better in the original Navajo

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  • [–] 4 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (2 children)

    Is that for real?

    Edit: Ok lol you got me (I stupid). I found this interesting page while I was checking though: https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/blog/home-invasion-how-does-stand-your-ground-or-castle-doctrine-apply/

    I wonder how you say "Castle Doctrine" in Navajo...

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  • [–] 5 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    Never loud enough such that they can hear you from an artillery battery.

    Sort of half the joke. Some natives sued for peace. Other natives fought to the last man. None of them won in the end, because they were outgunned, outnumbered, and outflanked. The survivors were just the ones who were best at survival, not the most committed to a particular ideology or position.

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  • [–] 39 points 11 months ago (7 children)

    If anyone in the Trump administration had any brains at all, this would have been obvious from the outset.

    The only people who can see advantage to Ukraine seeding territory to Russia, is Russia. Everyone else involved can see what a monumental tactical error that would be. Especially since everybody knows the only reason Russia is even at the negotiating table is because they are desperate, given that is the case, there is zero reason to capitulate.

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  • [–] 5 points 11 months ago (6 children)

    The point is to say Ukraine won’t accept Trump’s plan so they’re at fault.

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  • [–] 5 points 11 months ago (5 children)

    Which is fucking stupid conclusion because UA doesn't have to do anything, much less accept a bad "plan."

    The onus has always been on Russia and no amount of feet stomping from the toddler in chief is going to change that fact.

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  • [–] 4 points 11 months ago (4 children)

    Americans are the dumbest people on the planet, it’ll be enough for them to accept dropping support.

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  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    I dont know about dumbest, but they're definitely up there. The Russians are pretty fucking stupid too. Just a savage horde of drunk, inbred meat for the grinder, too stupid to take out Putin and stop their fathers, brothers, uncles, sons, and grandsons from being sent to the front line to be chewed up by drones.

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  • [–] 0 points 11 months ago*

    Americans are bankrolling the Ukrainian defense and extracting enormous concessions from Zelensky as a result.

    The longer the war drags on, and the more debt Ukraine assumes in the process, the less sovereignty they'll maintain in the aftermath.

    The stupidest kids in the room right now are the folks at the Russia/Ukraine border who traded in their sovereignty (and often their lives) over an ethnic pissing contest. American investors are going to come out of this flush. Taxpayers are eating the same shit sandwich as everyone else in NATO.

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  • [–] 144 points 11 months ago (22 children)

    As an American I stand with Ukraine.

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  • [+] -110 points 11 months ago (21 children)

    What if the vast majority of Ukrainians had an interest in ending the war via negotiations, or even to cede land? Would you still stand with Ukrainians?

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  • [–] 100 points 11 months ago (17 children)

    Yes. If the people of Ukraine are done with the vicious pounding they are giving Russia, its leaders and their already terrible image, it’s up to them to decide that. You have no saying in that. Nor made up statistics and lies about Ukraine and the Ukrainian people.

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  • [+] -68 points 11 months ago (16 children)

    Ukrainian Support for War Effort Collapses

    More than three years into the war, Ukrainians’ support for continuing to fight until victory has hit a new low. In Gallup’s most recent poll of Ukraine — conducted in early July — 69% say they favor a negotiated end to the war as soon as possible, compared with 24% who support continuing to fight until victory.

    This marks a nearly complete reversal from public opinion in 2022, when 73% favored Ukraine fighting until victory and 22% preferred that Ukraine seek a negotiated end as soon as possible.

    What is Ukrainian leadership doing to understand the hopes of average Ukrainians - regarding an end to this war?

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  • [–] 64 points 11 months ago (9 children)

    A negotiation typically ends when both parties get what they want. Maybe they don't get everything they want, but they are happy enough with the results to accept the terms.

    Capitulation is not negotiating, it's literally giving up many concessions for nothing in return.

    Keep in mind that Ukraine was tricked once already with the Crimean war peace deal that saw them give up territory. Russia invaded again and the U.S. turned a blind eye to their aggression for a second time despite repeated promises of security.

    You would have to be an idiot to take any deal that gives up territory at this point. That's not a negotiation, it's just surrender. It's kicking the can down the road to give Russia time to recoup their losses and invade again in a few more years.

    The United States has proven to be an unreliable ally in the best of times, so why would they accept a peace deal brokered by a pedophile conman?

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  • [+] -44 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (8 children)

    A negotiation typically ends when both parties get what they want.

    This is unlike any negotiation I've ever been in. Id say a negotiation ends when both parties agree on what they wont get. Your negotiation with the used car salesman doesn't end when you get half off sticker price and the salesman gets sticker price. That's just a contradiction.

    Regardless... call it what you want: surrender, capitulation, conceding territory, etc... it's just semantics.

    Suppose the Ukrainian people wish to surrender. Would you still stand with them?

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  • [–] 37 points 11 months ago (7 children)

    Your negotiation with the used car salesman doesn’t end when you get half off sticker price and the salesman gets sticker price. That’s just a contradiction.

    What kind of idiotic analogy is this? I can't even wrap my head around it.

    Regardless… called it what you want: surrender, capitulation, conceding territory, etc… it’s just semantics.

    No, it's really not just "semantics". Words have specific meaning.

    I completely believe that the majority of Ukrainians want a negotiated end to the war. War sucks and everybody who has had to live trough one will tell you so. But if the "negotiation" is Russia saying "Give us all the territory we have occupied/seized so far, plus some additional territory that we have not yet occupied, and we will withdraw our troops." that's not a negotiation. That's conditional surrender. I really doubt that the people are clamoring to surrender their land and homes to Russian occupiers.

    Suppose the Ukrainian people wish to surrender. Would you still stand with them?

    I suspect that no matter what I think the Ukrainian people should do, if they decide that they are ready to give up the fight, then that's none of my business. I'm not in the trenches with a rifle, after all.

    But if they Ukrainian people want to continue to fight, and negotiate for a favorable peace agreement, I'm all for supporting them so that they can win and make all the bloodshed so far worth it.

    I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that Zelenskyy has a better grasp of the pulse of his own citizens than any of us do.

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  • [+] -35 points 11 months ago (5 children)

    if they decide that they are ready to give up the fight, then that's none of my business

    But if they Ukrainian people want to continue to fight, [...] I'm all for supporting them

    Thats some precise and deliberate language you're using. Yet you've still avoided answering the simple question.

    Sending tens of thousands of Ukrainians into the grinder?

    "Hell yeah! Slava Ukraini! To the last man!

    Ukrainians use their agency to negotiate an end to the war

    "Meh, not my business"

    It's pretty clear that when this war most likely ends via negotiation and a land concession, all the gung ho support we see in threads like this one is going to evaporate.

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  • [–] 23 points 11 months ago (4 children)

    lmao, bro, I can't force them to fight. I'm just a guy on the other end of the computer. I think you don't understand what the word "support" means.

    I support Ukraine's right to independence and freedom.

    I support the cessation of hostilities in the region.

    I do not support surrender to Russia. Why would I? Choosing to fight and choosing not to fight are two diametrically opposed concepts. Therefore, I do not support a resolution in which Ukraine gives up land to Russia, period.

    It’s pretty clear that when this war most likely ends via negotiation and a land concession,

    Don't hold your breath on this one, Chief.

    all the gung ho support we see in threads like this one is going to evaporate.

    Wow, what a stunning prediction. Next are you going to predict that the sun will come back up again after it goes down?

    Regardless of how the war ends, the support generally ends with it. That's how thing things tend to work. it's pretty hard to care about a think when the thing is no longer happening. If Ukraine achieved victory through martial victory alone and ended the war purely on their terms, my support would also evaporate because the war would be over.

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  • [–] -1 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

    Ukrainian independence and freedom is secured through negotiations. When Ukraine negotiates an end to the war and cedes territory, they still have independence and freedom. You are making up goal posts by saying that ceding land is an end to independence and freedom. It's not. The end of independence and freedom would be Russia occupying Kiev. That is not in the cards. Russia will never occupy Kiev, they don't have the resources for it. Instead, in the absence of a negotiated end to the conflict, Russia will bombard Kiev and the rest of Western Ukraine to destroy all infrastructure, all manufacturing, and all energy production. So Ukraine will be independent but destroyed entirely. The negotiation is to prevent such bombardment at the cost of the Russian speaking territories on the border with Russia and a legal guarantee that Ukraine will not allow foreign military bases that are hostile to Russia to establish themselves in Ukraine.

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  • [+] -26 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    I do not support a resolution in which Ukraine gives up land to Russia, period.

    Well thank you for finally giving up on the evasiveness. Ukrainian agency means nothing to you.

    To stand with Ukraine means to affirm the average Ukrainian's agency. To affirm their agency to dictate the terms of the end of the war - even if it means they wish to surrender. You will not affirm Ukrainians if they decide to surrender, so you dont stand with Ukraine. You stand with Zelensky, at best. You stand with Ukraine *so long as they promise to sacrifice the last able-bodied soldier, at worst.

    So let's just all be clear and understand that you dont stand with Ukraine. You tentatively condone them, so long as...

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  • [–] 15 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    Please move to Russia... I'll buy the plane ticket. Bring some sunflower seeds when you leave, you'll need them

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  • [–] 56 points 11 months ago (4 children)

    I don't think anyone is questioning whether Ukrainians want the war to end. Of course the majority want the war to end as soon as possible. However, when asked specifically about territorial concessions the majority of Ukrainians are not willing to accept concessions. Source.

    Maybe the Ukrainian leadership knows more about what the average Ukrainian wants than you do?

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  • [+] -42 points 11 months ago (3 children)

    However, when asked specifically about territorial concessions the majority of Ukrainians are not willing to accept concessions.

    And never did I argue the opposite. The question was: supposing Ukrainians wish to concede territory, would you still support them?

    Maybe the Ukrainian leadership knows more about what the average Ukrainian wants than you do?

    Potentially, but given your own source, a solid portion of Ukrainians dont share those warm and fuzzies.

    As of December 2024, 52% of Ukrainians trusted President V. Zelenskyi, 39% did not trust him. The remaining 9% responded that they could not decide on their attitude. Although trust indicators have worsened over the year, the balance of trust-distrust remains positive – +13%.

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  • [–] 35 points 11 months ago

    And never did I argue the opposite. The question was: supposing Ukrainians wish to concede territory, would you still support them?

    If you never argued the opposite what's the point of you question? Or do you just like to ask about unfounded hypotheticals?

    Potentially, but given your own source, a solid portion of Ukrainians dont share those warm and fuzzies.

    Am I supposed to believe you purely coincidentally happened upon the lowest trust poll? How about we look at the latest data of the same poll. Turns out a big majority of Ukrainians do trust Zelenskyy.

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  • [–] 31 points 11 months ago (3 children)

    Zelensky should ask Trump how much American land he is willing to give Putin.

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  • [–] 62 points 11 months ago (5 children)

    I even think the headline is a little offensive, acting as if ceding land is even an option. They ceded land to Russia a decade ago and they're still getting attacked. WW2 should have taught us that you can't appease guys like Putin and Hitler.

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  • [–] 32 points 11 months ago (3 children)

    They didn't cede land back then either, it got taken over.

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  • [–] 0 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    It was annexed but they didn't really fight for it, and ceded

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago

    It was stolen and they absolutely fought for it. They just didn't have the backing of its allies, and didn't have the equipment they have now. Ukraine was still being forced to not really have a military during that time as well

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  • [–] 28 points 11 months ago* (6 children)

    Isnt this how russia took crimea. What makes anyone believe this'll be the last time.

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  • [–] 9 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    Ukraine still officially contests Crimea. It hasn't been surrendered.

    But there's also no real expectation Ukraine can retake the territory in their current position. And the longer the war drags on, the more territory they're in a position to lose.

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  • [–] 8 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    The war is currently seeing a very very slow Russian advance, but Ukraine seems to finally be able to strike the Russian economy. The drone attacks against the Russian oil industry are certainly new and increase the cost of war for Russia. Germany lost WW1 without a hostile soldier on its original territory for example.

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  • [–] 4 points 11 months ago

    Ukraine seems to finally be able to strike the Russian economy.

    I've been hearing this line since 2022. For all the sanctions and sabotage, Russia still seems pegged to the Petrodollar and continues to chug along as well as any OPEC state.

    Meanwhile, there's no introspection on the Ukrainian economy or how another year of war will affect them.

    Germany lost WW1 without a hostile soldier on its original territory for example.

    And famously never recovered, leaving the UK and France to command Europe uncontested for the next century.

    :-/

    Listen, I want a Winter Palace Coup as much as any NAFO-head, but you can only claim you're winning at the Somme for so long before people start learning to count the body bags.

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  • [–] 69 points 11 months ago (12 children)

    Giving bullies what they demand usually works out super well.

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  • [–] 3 points 11 months ago (9 children)
  • [–] 34 points 11 months ago (8 children)

    Readers that cannot tell that I'm being sarcastic need to be supervised near crayons.

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  • [–] 8 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    Tags are designed for clarity in general but also for neurodivergents specifically. While I can tell that you were being sarcastic, it's possible that others may have been unable to tell.

    I'm not saying that you should have put a tag on your comment, but insulting those for whom it would have been helpful is uncalled for.

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  • [–] 5 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    Are you speaking as someone that struggles with this or are you speaking on behalf of a hypothetical neurodivergent person?

    I would have thought it was implied that my comment was directed at neurotypical people (insulting neurodivergent people for social interaction issues? Is that what you assume of me?).

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  • [–] 7 points 11 months ago

    I am autistic and sometimes struggle to understand indirect statements (especially when not in-person, since there's no tone or expressions to read). I did understand your original comment, but even now I don't see why the second comment should be understood to exclude neurodivergent people. I'm speaking both for myself and for anyone similar to past-me who would have genuinely felt insulted but not said anything.

    This doesn't say anything about you, but yes I did assume that a stranger on the internet would insult ND people for social interaction issues. I did just join Lemmy though, so maybe that's an old habit that doesn't apply here. I am glad that I was wrong.

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  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago (4 children)
  • [–] 4 points 11 months ago (3 children)

    Doesn't mean you should shove them up your nose

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  • [–] 41 points 11 months ago (4 children)

    Europe should stop acting like Trump is a reasonable person. He is not. And he is a Russian asset.

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  • [–] 8 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (2 children)

    Europe should stop acting like Trump is a reasonable person.

    I'm pretty sure they are aware.

    I suspect they're hoping there are still some sane heads in Washington.

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  • [–] -1 points 11 months ago

    The ue has no power regarding the usa sadly. Look at how nato was push with the "u need to pay us more" and how the negociation regarding tarrfi went. Europe has no powe in the matter regarding ukraine and arent involve in the peace discussion. Most of european leader will say something along the line ukraine good good russia bad but further than that ? not sure

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  • [–] 69 points 11 months ago

    Slava ukraini

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  • [–] 55 points 11 months ago

    Slava mother fucking Ukraini

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  • [–] 55 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    If a prolific murderer and a felon rapist pedophile were pressuring me to give up what my fellow countrymen were dying for, I'd say no too.

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  • [–] -5 points 11 months ago*

    Some of those countrymen are conscripts. 2/3rds? Which makes continuation of battle far less justifiable IMO.

    Some people will choose to fight in Ukraine, to possibly die in Ukraine. Conscripts face punishment for refusal.

    How many of those fighting would refuse the peace deal?

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