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[–] 160 points 11 months ago* (23 children)

Playing devil's advocate, I understand one point of pressure: Plex doesn’t want to be perceived as a “piracy app.”

See: Kodi. https://kodi.expert/kodi-news/mpaa-warns-increasing-kodi-abuse-poses-greater-video-piracy-risk/

To be blunt, that’s a huge chunk of their userbase. And they run the risk of being legally pounded to dust once that image takes hold.

So how do they avoid that? Add a bunch of other stuff, for plausible deniability. And it seems to have worked, as the anti-piracy gods haven’t singled them out like they have past software projects.


To be clear, I'm not excusing Plex. But I can sympathize.

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  • [–] 17 points 11 months ago

    There is that but it’s primarily that they’ve taken over 40 million dollars of venture capital. They are almost certainly under immense pressure to turn profitable asap and converting lifetime pass users into revenue streams somehow, converting new users into SaaS, etc are going to be things they pursue more aggressively.

    Don’t take the devils money if you don’t want the devils stipulations

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  • [–] 9 points 11 months ago*

    They've taken other measures as well. Nobody knows the details besides them, but they blocked an entire cloud provider called Hetzner because too many people were using it for pirate Plex servers. They absolutely have to maintain the image of being legitimate like you said.

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  • [–] 31 points 11 months ago (11 children)

    It's really nice of them to fight the good fight while I use Jellyfin instead.

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  • [–] 20 points 11 months ago (3 children)

    You may (half) joke, but MPAA attention on Jellyfin would suck.

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  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    Maybe a dumb question: What exactly could go wrong? Has the MPAA done anything to stifle Kodi?

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  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago

    https://www.comparitech.com/kodi/kodi-piracy-decline/

    https://www.digital-digest.com/news-64644-Netflix-Amazon-Join-Forces-with-the-MPAA-to-Sue-Kodi-Box-Maker.html

    Based on our research, comparative search volume for “Kodi” has fallen around 85 percent from 2017 to 2022. Google Trends data reveals the dramatic decline started in Q2 of 2017 and has, for the most part, continued that trend up to this point. Consequently, the decline in people searching for Kodi directly relates to the appearance of the coordinated attack against piracy in the form of ACE.

    And this is with Kodi furiously distancing itself from pirates at the time.

    Attacks don’t have to be direct. Though they absolutely can be, too.

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  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago (6 children)

    Which doesn’t have half the features and crap security compared to Plex/Emby.

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  • [–] 13 points 11 months ago* (5 children)

    The security thing is ironic because my personal Jellyfin server (nor anything else on it) has been hacked, but Plex itself has had their database leaked recently. It's actually the main reason I switched because I don't like their auth servers being a giant common target. (Also, technically it theoretically means Plex employees can just let themselves in to people's private servers)

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  • [–] 4 points 11 months ago* (2 children)

    From their blog post about it:

    An unauthorized third party accessed a limited subset of customer data from one of our databases. While we quickly contained the incident, information that was accessed included emails, usernames, securely hashed passwords and authentication data. Any account passwords that may have been accessed were securely hashed, in accordance with best practices, meaning they cannot be read by a third party.

    The passwords were hashed and, I'm inferring from their language, salted per-user as well. Assuming a reasonable length password (complexity doesn't matter much here, what we want is entropy) it would take a conventional (i.e. not quantum) computer tens to hundreds of millions of years to crack one user's password.

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  • [–] 3 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    Yeah, I'm not really worried about it. I changed my password and moved on. It's just that hackers have every reason to try and exploit Plex, while individual servers are hardly worth someone's time and effort to go after when the payoff is maybe 1-2 usernames and emails

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago

    Simply not true. There is no person out there deciding every fry is too small. They just pick an exploit and send some bots after it. Every target is a good target because every target is a platform for more. It's currency. The discrimination happens at the userbase level which is why jellyfin will always be safe. Kidding 😂

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  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    … my personal Jellyfin server (nor anything else on it) has been hacked…

    And I’ve never been attacked by a bear while wearing my goose feather headdress.

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  • [–] 0 points 11 months ago*

    Call it survivorship/selection bias if you want, but basically every hack I've been exposed to is from centralized servers getting exploited that serve millions of people. Plex, along with any other public facing service with lots of users, receives targeted attacks constantly. All my server receives is automated bots looking for 10-year-old Wordpress .php exploits (I don't even run php on my server).

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  • [–] -5 points 11 months ago (7 children)

    Sure, apart from charging for remote access.

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  • [–] 13 points 11 months ago*

    That serves the purpose too. It’s harder to pin Plex as an “illegal distribution service” when you have to pay for access. Either the streamer or “distributor” can’t be very anonymous, which makes large scale sharing impractical.

    On the other hand, the more money they squeeze out, the more they risk appearing as if they “make money from piracy,” which is exactly how you get the MPAA’s attention.

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  • [–] 8 points 11 months ago (4 children)

    Remote access via their servers.

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  • [–] 3 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    I admit I’m very out of the loop, but my understanding is that remote access via their servers is the only supported remote viewing solution? Anything else is a “hack” so to speak.

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  • [–] 5 points 11 months ago

    If you have a static IP, or dynamic DNS set up, you can set up your own remote access with a reverse proxy like nginx. The nice thing is I get to use my own SSL certificate and all the actual streaming goes directly to my server, not through their proxies.

    The only "hacky" part about it is that the Admin dashboard shows "Not available outside your network", even though everything works perfectly.

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  • [–] 3 points 11 months ago

    Dynamic DNS does cost money. But not $8 a month. Development also costs money which falls under the $8 a month, but really not my problem, which is why I use Jellyfin. I used to run Plex off of my Nvidia shield, which was a cool gateway drug to self hosting and I'm grateful to them for that, but I like handling the technical stuff myself.

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  • [–] 90 points 11 months ago

    The writing was on the wall when they started getting American VC money.

    American VC culture is anthenema to truly user focused products.

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  • [–] 42 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (7 children)

    3 Things stop from using jellyfin 100% of the time.

    1. TV tuner is janky and loading a guide for local channels is garbage. I like watching the morning local news and jellyfin just does not cut it.

    2. I want sub accounts. They used to have something similar but took it out for security reasons. I want to log all my TVs into one account but then have each user select their profile. So I can easily have a restricted profile for say kids then another for my parents then one for me then one for SO under the same roof. It will track each persons watched profile so when someone watches ahead it doesn't mess with someone else's.

    3. On the same note, controller/ HTPC remote configs feel janky. I know its there but its not a smooth and easy as Plex. This goes along with above for anyone who says just make another account. You try entering half decent passwords with small HTPC remotes or controllers. Every time you go to watch TV.

    If they could fix these things I would ditch Plex all the way. But as it stands I use Plex for my TV and jellyfin for my phones, tablets, PC.

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  • [–] 9 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    You can already do number 2 (with some restrictions). You have to set up your networking tab correctly, use blank passwords, and uncheck "allow remote connections" for the "local" accounts. i have things set up so that external users are forced to log in and local users just pick a profile. If you also add your external users' IP addresses to the LAN Networks box, they'll be treated as an internal user too (though how you keep that up to date is a bit more challenging). It's not precisely the Netflix experience but it works well enough for us

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  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    I'll have to look into that. Last I remember they removed that and local simple pin. Because it could be used to bypass security even from outside network. You are running current version right?

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  • [–] 4 points 11 months ago

    Ya - or close enough (10.11.3). My LAN networks are my server and workstation subnets (both /24s) and my external NAT (my public ip). I also have my reverse proxy address (from jellyfin's perspective) in my known proxies. From there, my external users are set to allow remote connections, have passwords set, and are set to "hide this user from login screens" and my internal users are set to NOT allow remote connections and to NOT hide from login screens. After that, i just use my public dns for every device whether it's internal or external and call it a day

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  • [–] 4 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    TV tuner is janky and loading a guide for local channels is garbage. I like watching the morning local news and jellyfin just does not cut it.

    I DVR local stuff with Plex and play it back in Jellyfin.

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago

    I do that sometimes but I like the morning news and I feel it should be current so not a great solution for me. Jellyfin just needs a bit more polish. Its great I like it but also at the same rate the appear to fix some things like their security bugs I'm not going to hold my breath. I do hope they push through though like Immich.

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  • [–] 0 points 11 months ago* (1 child)

    Jellyfin has local channels? Why don't you just watch local channels?

    Does plex have local channels? Seems like that is a use case that doesnt make any sense to me.

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  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago

    In the US there is still a thing ad broadcast TV. Stick a TV antenna up in the air, free TV. Get a tuner card for PC and TV for your PC before streaming was ever a thing. Used it on my laptop when I traveled more. But with setting it up in jellyfin it works but is janky and needs polishing, and setting it up to download the TV guide is kinda a nightmare. With Plex life pass ( this is the feature that made me get it and dropping Comcast cable TV) it just works auto scans for channels and auto downloads TV guide, easy to flip throughout channels even my mom does it.

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  • [–] 30 points 11 months ago* (1 child)

    I'm going to call it like I saw it, a very long time ago.

    You have a product that is basically purpose built to make data hoarding and piracy practical, yet it requires a login with a central service. I don't care what justification anyone thinks makes that worthwhile or even a good compromise. Signaling to any corporate entity that you're in possession of such a thing is a bad idea to begin with. They shouldn't even know you exist. That information, along with anything else you do with the product is compromising to you and can be sold for money if aggregated with everyone else's data.

    If you find this rant out of place in our modern world, I'd like to point to the concept of shifting baselines. This didn't used to be normal and nothing short of greed continues the behavior. The technology before this ran/runs without anyone knowing. Consider VLC, or XBMC.

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  • [–] 221 points 11 months ago (51 children)
  • [–] 16 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    I'd love Jellyfin if not for their incredibly infuriating seek behaviour. Why do I have to press play to start the video again?

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  • [–] 8 points 11 months ago

    In case this helps, for me when I use it on Android TV with said TV's remote, the arrow buttons on the direction pad for anything require pressing play/OK button after. But if I use the fast forward buttons, it does seek and then just keeps playing.

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  • [–] 45 points 11 months ago (24 children)

    Does jellyfin have an easy way for remote streaming? I have a couple dozen people on my Plex server, most not very tech savvy, so setting up tailscale and running remote that way isn't an option. I have a Plex pass so I haven't been screwed by Plex yet, so I'm not rushing to get out, but I could see myself running both.

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  • [–] 42 points 11 months ago (8 children)

    Yes-ish, it's harder for you than the users. But you will have to secure a URL and they will have to remember that URL. Also there's some security issues with some unsecured endpoints on Jellyfin. That said I have mine out there exposed to the net and am comfortable enough with it.

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  • [–] 3 points 11 months ago (6 children)

    I already have to expose my Plex Media Server with a Tailscsle funnel (for IPv4 only) for IPv6 I use my Synology NAS reverse proxy which can be accessed globally.

    I have been maining this setup for years now that I forgot if I can access my PMS outside without either those solutions lol (I am GGNATED but IPv6 works fine as stated).

    The main thing here is that I don't need my users to do anything, they just open the app and access it, no need to remember IPs/URLs or install VPNs to my server... Is that possible with Jellyfin as well?

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  • [–] 3 points 11 months ago

    Yes you can do the same thing for Jellyfin. I use Synology ddns and setup subdomain in reverse proxy to jellyfin port. For tailscale, I previously use this but needs to add the jellyfin port after the tailscale IP.

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  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago (4 children)

    No, there's not centralized host server to connect your users with your server. They need a fixed IP or URL to access your server from outside your network.

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  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago (3 children)

    So how do they access from, let's say a Smart TV/Android TV device?

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  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    Jellyfin apps ask you for three things in order to login: URL, username, password.

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  • [–] 8 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (6 children)

    You could just get a domain and set up a reverse proxy. Or use Cloudflare tunnels.

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  • [–] 8 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    All possible, but currently I have lifetime Plex pass and just need to share with people I want to share with. No extra config. Once Jellyfin can do that or something similar, I'll look at jumping ship. Until then, the juice isn't worth the squeeze.

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  • [–] 6 points 11 months ago

    Once Jellyfin can do that or something similar

    Once Jellyfin does that then it'll be time to look at jumping ship to something else, because that'll be the indication that Jellyfin is going down the same road as Plex.

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago (2 children)

    The first one, yes. That's what I do. But IIRC hosting media via cloudflare tunnels goes against the TOC and they reserve the right to ban users over it

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  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    They changed their TOC a while ago, the only thing they have in there now is boiler plate stuff about not hosting pirated content.

    https://www.cloudflare.com/en-gb/terms/ You agree not to, and not to allow third parties to use the Services to ... post, transmit, store or link to any files, materials, data, text, audio, video, images or other content that infringe on any person’s intellectual property rights or that are otherwise unlawful;

    I just set up a cache rule to ignore my jellyfin subdomain and they won't ever care about me and my half dozen users.

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  • [–] 7 points 11 months ago (5 children)

    no, tailscale is still the easiest option.

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  • [–] 10 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    So I don't get it, I have mine up with a domain without tsilscale.. The clients are quite happy wherever. I don't even see that much "crawling" traffic that goes to the domain, most just hit the server by ip and get a static 401 page that the "default" site is hard coded to give out.

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  • [–] 14 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    Bummer... unfortunately, that's a deal breaker for me to completely drop Plex. Maybe someday.

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  • [–] 12 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    Agreed! I stayed with Plex for a long time because Jellyfin had a rough time with live TV (antenna) and I already had a PlexPass because of a sale a long time ago. Now Plex is only still running because I love Plexamp.

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  • [–] 6 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    The way you switch between two servers you own is more than inconvenient; it's what keeps Plex in my life.I wish things would change because everything else is better.

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  • [–] -1 points 11 months ago

    That's why I use Emby. Paid for lifetime within a day of switch from Plex (which I also have has lifetime for like a decade) because it has a ton of plugins that have been useful and has a cloud server switch function.

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago (2 children)

    Just to think of replacing the mount points in the docker container from Plex to Jellyfin (in order for it to read my Riven and Decypharr symlinks) scares me... Mostly because after I finish a docker project my mind seems to go blank lol.

    At least they still kinda honour the Plex Pass lifetime users...

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  • [–] 0 points 11 months ago (10 children)

    For the love, as a Plex alternative, they don’t even have a native app on all major tv stores. It should be a P1 feature. I would throw money at them if they get Apple TV support. Right now, there are no functional apps running on the latest Apple TV OS.

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  • [–] 5 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    For the love, as a Plex alternative, they don’t even have a native app on all major tv stores. It should be a P1 feature.

    Are you really bitching this hard about a completely free and open source project?

    It's not technology or finances that kill most FOSS projects and burn out the devs. It's this kind of shitty entitled unappreciative demanding attitude from users.

    As others have pointed out, there are fully functional and good quality frontends available, such as Swiftfin.

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago (1 child)

    I maintain open source projects too, and I fully understand the burnout, the pressure from supporters and such. What I was saying is they can do better from a project management perspective. Otherwise I love their work :3

    Swiftfin is buggy atm, like my other comment.

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  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago (3 children)
  • [–] 0 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    For me the audio is desynced and subtitles are completely broken. :(

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago (1 child)

    Oh weird. I would guess a transcoding issue, maybe double check those settings to make sure you have the right config for your hardware.

    Theres also Infuse, its a video player that supports jellyfin, but I think some features are behind a premium purchase.

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  • [–] 25 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    There's only one reason, money.

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  • [–] 21 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    I never felt comfortable with Plex, glad I've got JellyFin.

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    [–] 34 points 11 months ago (3 children)
  • [–] 44 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (3 children)

    If jellyfin was easier to use and had the same options as Plex, id switch over. But I'll keep my Plex lifetime pass as long as I can until they make all lifetime passes null in the next 2 years and make us all pay monthly.

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  • [–] 19 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    If jellyfin was easier to use and had the same options as jellyfin

    Just guessing here, but I think it just might.

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  • [–] 6 points 11 months ago

    Individual user accounts, so multiple people can use the same device without needing to log into a new account each time. For example, User A watches a show on the TV. Then User B opens the TV, and has to log in to be able to access their own watch history. Then User A returns, and has to log back into their account.

    Braindead remote access. I use a reverse proxy so it’s not a need for me, but plenty of people don’t understand how to properly set something like that up.

    Single Sign On. It flies in the face of what Jellyfin stands for, because it would require a centralized authentication server that everyone’s servers phone home to. Just like Plex. With Plex, you log into one account, and can see all of your available servers, because they’re all tied to the same account. With Jellyfin, every server requires its own authentication, because there is no central server to manage all of the “Account XYZ has access to libraries A, B, and C” stuff. If I want to watch something, I can’t easily just search all of my servers at once; I need to individually log into and search each one to see if it has the content I want to watch.

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