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[–] 79 points 11 months ago (31 children)

Excellent time for Japanese devs to collectively develop some open-source fonts. Many hands make light work.

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  • [–] 3 points 11 months ago* (1 child)

    open-source fonts

    Don't they already exist? Work already done makes no work needed.

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  • [–] 3 points 11 months ago

    Evidently game devs have some distinct expectations, or they could already use those and save some money.

    This could be a rallying point for professional artists to build a font family conveying whimsy, authority, fantasy, antiquity, futurism, etc. Like how DejaVu covers a little bit of everything.

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

    I don't mean to agree with that other person hating on kanji, but if they're going to take on the task of making a new font they could potentially alter the writing system somewhat to simplify some things and/or extend versatility of some characters. A new evolution would be exciting.

    鬱 has 29 strokes. People just write うつbecause they can understandably not be assed to write all that. So why not, if you have to go through the task of making an entire font, replace it with something people might actually write? You could come up with a new character in the tradition of hiragana's origins, something uniquely Japanese.

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  • [+] -81 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (27 children)
  • [–] 45 points 11 months ago

    Why? And what constitutes a "functional language" to you?

    Is the fact that they can read, write, speak, and understand the language not "functional" enough for you? The point gets across to the person receiving the message.

    You can even translate it to a "functional language" of your choice, with some restrictions. Translation restrictions aren't isolated to Japanese either, there's lots of languages that have things which don't translate well, or at all, to English.

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  • [–] 17 points 11 months ago* (23 children)
    1. that's literally one of the most bigoted comments I've ever seen in the fediverse

    2. your comment is in English, a language so non-functional it's the only one that had to have spelling bees to get kids to learn its asinine rules

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  • [+] 8 points 11 months ago (22 children)
  • [+] -2 points 11 months ago (19 children)
  • [–] 8 points 11 months ago (18 children)

    No, that's a whole new unrelated topic. Any other questions?

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  • [+] 3 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (17 children)
  • [–] 4 points 11 months ago (10 children)

    I think ideograms suck because they are an extremely bad writing system

    That's nice, but what you originally said was that "the Japanese don't have a functional writing system", which is bigoted, because it constitutes an unreasonable belief/prejudice against a particular group of people ("the Japanese"). It's an unreasonable position because the Japanese writing system is obviously functional, as millions of people use it to great effect every day.

    imperial units suck because they are an extremely bad measurement system

    This is not bigotry because it isn't an unreasonable belief, and it doesn't target/prejudice against one specific group (other than 'imperial measurement users', which isn't really an identifying or culturally significant group).

    Bonus question: If I say it's an excellent time to drop the Gregorian calendar do I win at racism for expanding it to the whole world?

    Bonus answer: no, bigotry targets/prejudices against a specific identifying group. "The whole world" doesn't qualify as a group that you can be bigoted against. Hating everyone makes you a grumpy curmudgeon, but not a racist.

    Hope this helps.

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  • [+] -1 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (9 children)
  • [–] 3 points 11 months ago* (8 children)

    I'm not being dishonest, I paraphrased.

    Excellent time for the Japanese to drop ideogram/logogram system and have an alphabet like a functional language.

    Your original comment (included above for convenience) very clearly implies that Japanese is not a functional language because it doesn't use an alphabet. I didn't misrepresent you at all.

    "Imperial measurement users" are an "identifying or culturally significant group", they are called Americans

    First, plenty of other places other than America, Liberia, and Myanmar use imperial units. And even if they didn't, the inclusion of Liberia and Myanmar means "imperial system users" isn't just identifying Americans, so you're just flat out incorrect about that. I'm ignoring the bit where you said "[Liberia and Myanmar] are not culturally significant groups over the internet" because that implies that you think bigotry only exists on the Internet, or maybe you think you can only be bigoted against a group with a large enough Internet presence or something? Which I know you can't possibly think, so I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt there and chalking that up to a miscommunication.

    Second, bigotry necessarily involves holding an unreasonable position or belief. The belief that the imperial system is worse than metric is not unreasonable, because there's evidence supporting that belief, and there's even a large number of imperial system users that hold that belief. The belief that it's "time for the Japanese to drop ideogram/logogram system and have an alphabet like a functional language" is unreasonable for the reasons I explained previously.

    Third, it doesn't matter what ethnicity or nationality you used, the structure of your statement would still be bigoted, because it would still be an unreasonable belief that prejudices against a particular group of people.

    Hope this helps.

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  • [+] 0 points 11 months ago (7 children)
  • [–] 3 points 11 months ago (6 children)

    Is the belief that the logographic system is worse than alphabets (and abugidas, for that matter) unreasonable?

    Lol yes. Both systems have benefits and drawbacks, it's unreasonable to say either is "worse" than the other. It's certainly not as clear-cut as the comparison between the imperial and metric systems.

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  • [+] 1 point 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (5 children)
  • [–] 3 points 11 months ago (4 children)

    Agree you've covered some of the pros of alphabet systems and cons of logographic systems, and those are totally valid. You're neglecting the other sides though, so let's balance that out:

    Here's some pros of logographic systems:

    • Higher information density - you can say more with less, and readers can parse it faster

    • Compound words are intuitive - just put the symbols for the two halves of the words next to each other (or visually combine them in some cases)

    • Symbols have direct meaning - there is usually no "sounding out" words to figure out what they mean, the symbol by itself fully encapsulates meaning, independent of pronunciation

    • Because meaning is independent from phonetics, ambiguity is reduced with homophones, in that two words that sound the same still have two different-looking symbols

    • Written communication can still be understood even across different dialects, and even across different languages altogether, if the same logographic system is used, and even if those logographic symbols have different pronunciations. This separation makes it possible to communicate across language barriers without having to learn a whole other language.

    • Logographic systems don't have to adapt to changes in pronunciation over time, they're stable

    Here's some cons of alphabet systems:

    • Much lower information density takes longer to read, most people have to internally convert the visual data to sound to understand it, so it physically takes more brainpower/effort to understand written text

    • Wild inconsistencies in phonetics within a language, requiring rote memorization of spelling "rules" and all of their various exceptions. Makes learning new words difficult as you can't be sure if you're "sounding it out" correctly unless you've heard the spoken word

    • Meaning directly depends on phonetics/pronunciation, which can lead to confusion and ambiguity with alternate pronunciations, alternate spellings, and differing dialects (e.g. Canadian French vs. Metropolitan French)

    • Learning a language that uses an alphabet system means learning it twice - the written language and the spoken language

    • Homophones and hereronyms? Good luck

    Also here's some food for thought. I 100% guarantee you use a logographic system every single day, very easily, without even realizing it. In fact, nearly the whole world uses it - Arabic numerals.

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  • [+] -1 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (3 children)
  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    Sure, I agree that alphabet systems are initially easier to learn than logographic systems. But to achieve that they sacrifice the consistency and lack of ambiguity of a logographic system. It's funny you bring up Korean as an example of a good alphabet system, because I can assure you as someone who is currently learning Korean, it has it's weird spelling inconsistencies and pronunciation "rules" and exceptions, just like any other alphabet system.

    And again, I'm not trying to convince you that one is better than the other. My whole point is that one isn't any better or worse than another. They each have their own strengths, weaknesses, and specific purposes, they're both functional, one isn't better or worse than the other as a whole.

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  • [+] 0 points 11 months ago (1 child)
  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago

    You're absolutely correct that Korea (and Vietnam I suppose, I don't know much about their language) invented their alphabet to make literacy more accessible, and I think that's awesome and a really good feature of alphabet systems. I can even see why that would make people prefer alphabet systems, since accessibility is super important when you're first learning a language.

    I think your cached vs. real-time analogy is spot on. And while you can definitely come up with scenarios where caching is better than real-time rendering, and other scenarios where real-time rendering is better than caching, it'd be difficult to argue that one is unequivocally better or worse than the other.

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  • [–] 0 points 11 months ago (5 children)

    I think ideograms suck because they are an extremely bad writing system, and imperial units suck because they are an extremely bad measurement system

    And I think you suck because you are an extremely bad person.

    Equivalent statement right?

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  • [+] -1 points 11 months ago* (4 children)
  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago (3 children)

    I did not mention an ethnicity. I mentioned you, specifically.

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  • [+] -1 points 11 months ago (2 children)
  • [+] 76 points 11 months ago (4 children)
  • [–] 33 points 11 months ago* (2 children)

    after they bought the rights to some font.

    Now That's What I Call Capitalism

    I would be burning fucking buildings down. I'd be at the top of the FBI's most wanted list.

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  • [–] 4 points 11 months ago

    This would be an interesting comic strip. A company that has purchased all the fonts in existence, and then the artist doing the comic you are reading gets sued by the company he’s making a comic about, because he doesn’t have the rights to the font.

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  • [–] 65 points 11 months ago

    The worst rent seekers come for everything

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  • [–] 121 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    Nothing will meaningfully improve until the rich fear for their lives

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  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    This can quite appropriately be assigned as the top comment to sooo many articles/posts.

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  • [–] 4 points 11 months ago

    It frustrates me how often this is the most viable solution to problems these days.

    The human race is really just sitting around waiting till this system collapses because the rich have taken everything and allow us nothing anymore.

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  • [–] 75 points 11 months ago (3 children)

    It’s also worth noting that in the case of games in Japanese, it’s not so easy for developers to find alternatives. While games using English can rely on system UI fonts, cheap commercial fonts or open-source options, the sheer number of characters used in Japanese means high-quality fonts are extremely difficult and expensive to make, so few affordable alternatives are available.

    There's already a decent selection of high quality, freely available Japanese fonts here: https://fonts.google.com/?lang=ja_Jpan

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  • [–] 23 points 11 months ago (1 child)
  • [–] 25 points 11 months ago*

    Yeah:

    Yes, you can use them commercially, and even include them within a product that is sold commercially. Usage and redistribution conditions are specified in the license. The most common license is the SIL Open Font License. Some fonts are under the Apache license or Ubuntu Font License. You can redistribute open source fonts according to those conditions.

    https://developers.google.com/fonts/faq#can_i_use_any_font_in_a_commercial_product

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  • [–] 17 points 11 months ago

    I'm guessing the problem is they want a relatively unique font to avoid looking the same as other games, and then once they've chosen their font they're pretty much stuck with it unless they're willing to change the look of their game (for live-service games at least). A number of the fonts there might work for new stuff though.

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  • [–] 42 points 11 months ago (6 children)

    Owning literal letters has got to be the dumbest shit I've heard in my life. Fucking leeches.

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  • [–] 4 points 11 months ago* (1 child)

    I remember back during the NFT hype cycle how people were claiming they'd patented particular shades of color and were selling rights to them on the blockchain.

    I gotta wonder who even enforces this shit. Where do you go to register a font-type you claim you own that looks shockingly similar to a font people have been using since the printing press was invented? So much of this just feels like vexatious litigation. "Ah, yes, that's actually my 'a' and you need to pay me $20k to use it".

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  • [–] 3 points 11 months ago

    It really is fucking obnoxious. I do understand in some instances where there's some really cool font an ARTIST made but this obviously not the case. Just some snivelling pencil pushers that found a way to game the system and fuck people over.

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  • [–] -3 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    They don't own "literal letters."

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  • [–] 19 points 11 months ago

    Then use a free OFL-licensed font. Or cooperate to commission your own fonts to share among this consortium.

    Really a non-issue if you're not stupid.

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  • [–] 9 points 11 months ago (4 children)

    I don't think that a single product whose price has multiplied by 50 times at once has ever been successful. Shit, even small price increases on streaming services over time cause people to resort to privacy (as we all should). 50 times at once is fucking insane. I don't think that any reasonable developer will actually be buying this shit, because there's always better alternatives available. This is fucking stupid.

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  • [–] 12 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    Its more likely they increased the price and immediately starting shaking down anyone who was paying for the old license price. Its a frustrating scummy tech company "strategy" that unfortunately works because someone at a developer or publisher will be willing to pay the hike if it means avoiding any legal battle.

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  • [–] 52 points 11 months ago* (28 children)

    "Font" and "licensing" are not words that belong together.

    "Oh, I took the alphabet and made it slightly different - you know, like every single person who ever learned how to write - only I did it on a computer so now you have to pay me forever if you want your computer to write like mine does".

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  • [–] 39 points 11 months ago (13 children)

    It's artwork, like any other visual element in a game.

    The problem is price-gouging. Japan should set national maximum rates. You drew every fucking kanji in a cool new style? Great, here's some money. Emphasis on some.

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  • [+] -9 points 11 months ago (12 children)

    It's debatably artwork. Every single person has their own handwritten "font" - more than one if you write cursive and block letters. A font doesn't have a message or a meaning, it is just a means for conveying information through text. I'm sure you can produce several examples of specific fonts that qualify as "artwork" (though it's just a numbers game since there are literally hundreds of thousands of different fonts on the web, if not more) but that doesn't prove that every font is automatically "artwork".

    We could also make the claim that every drawing is an artwork depending on how we define the word, but that doesn't mean that every nine-year-old who draws an "original character" that's just a green Sonic the Hedgehog should be able to use the legal system to bully other people because he's an "artist".

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  • [–] 10 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    I very much don't want some corporation to be able to just take a 9 year old's drawing and slap it on their game because someone thought it wasn't artsy enough to be awarded protection.

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  • [–] 4 points 11 months ago

    I very much don't want some corporation to be able to just take a 9 year old's drawing and slap it on their game because someone thought it wasn't artsy enough to be awarded protection.

    Yours is a completely fair statement to which I have no objections.

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  • [–] 25 points 11 months ago (8 children)

    It's absogoddamnlutely artwork. As much as the game itself, as mere software, is artwork. Someone put a ton of tedious work into every font you consider boring. Typography is a whole field of study, balancing aesthetic and practical concerns, and you want to roll your eyes and insist that only Wingdings is real art.

    We could also make the claim that every drawing is an artwork

    Yes.

    These aren't scribbled alphabets - which by the way are really fucking hard to do, when every copy of a letter has to look the same and still feel handwritten. These are letterforms conveying a particular tone, in use by industry professionals, for three thousand characters. Japanese has like three and a half alphabets to start with, and then Kanji is a whole mess of stolen Chinese ideograms. And they're fucking complicated.

    If you think you can bang that out with the effort of a child's crayon doodle, to the quality necessary for commercial video game projects, I invite you to try. Apparently it'd come in handy.

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  • [+] -9 points 11 months ago (5 children)

    I made exactly zero references to effort. Nice strawman. Yes, I'm sure some fonts take decades of hard, grueling effort to make. Just like I'm sure the nine-year-old's green Sonic took him a lot of effort too. And no, I'm not implicitly saying it's about talent either, before you accuse me of that.

    Letters belong to humanity. Licensing your version of them because it is "unique" is bullshit because everyone's writing is unique. Gatekeeping text presentation for money is so dystopic I have a hard time understanding how you support it, though I do admit your arguments seem to make a lot of sense if we ignore the fact that we're basically discussing a copyright on how to write.

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  • [–] 13 points 11 months ago* (4 children)

    Ah, so you're just saying words recreationally. There's glory for you. What does art have to do with effort, or talent?

    Fonts are protected works and you seem to understand why - but dismissively pretend an artsy font would be exceptional and distinct, instead of being as protected as any other illustration of the alphabet. None of them somehow own... the alphabet. Just the illustrations. Like any illustration. Even little Billy's shitty Sonic OC has some copyright protections. He can't slap his drawing of Blonic into a video game, but neither can Sega.

    Consider Futura.

    You have seen this font a million times and probably thought about it precisely never. It's aggressively plain. But its development is a microcosm of early 20th-century art history, philosophy, and politics, to the point it was treated as degenerate by the actual goddamn Nazis, and then later adopted by them anyway. These boring-ass letters were innovative. This one sans-serif font has a five thousand word Wikipedia article. That's not a complicated joke, and it's only partially ingroup fart-sniffing. This is an element of culture you interact with every goddamn day. You're doing it right now. Immense work has gone into designing and rendering whichever generic sans-serif you're reading this in.

    Yet even if it was still mono-spaced Codepage 437 in green on black, somebody had to draw all those pixels. Somebody decided it needed not one but two smiley faces. And it's protected to the same extent as the BIOS code, one ROM chip over, for all the same reasons. It is an artifact of human labor, under practical constraints, for specific expressive purposes. It can't not be.

    I've done some Game Boy games. One has a custom font. I just winged it. It's not important. But why would you expect those graphics to be any less protected than all the other sprites I drew?

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  • [–] 22 points 11 months ago (3 children)

    You know what? You are right. That Wikipedia article was a fascinating read. I recant my previous statements uniquivocally, sincerely and unironically.

    Thank you for the humbling lesson on what it's like to be on the left side of the Dunning-Krueger curve. I'm an ignorant fuck.

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  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago

    And each dev is free to make their own font. But if they want to uses someone else's, it stands to reason they might have to pay that someone else.

    If you draw a really cool painting. That doesn't mean I'm allowed to then just scan your artwork, print it on bottles and sell them.

    The problem here is no one had the foresight to realise it's a pretty big issue when you're leasing the rights to a specific font for a specific period of time, what happens after the lease expires?

    If they did, the contractual language would be different.

    It's not a problem in this sector alone. It's a problem, in many sectors, but no one seems to learn from others mistakes.

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  • [–] 7 points 11 months ago (6 children)

    Seriously. I would work very hard on my own font before I would pay to license one.

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  • [–] 11 points 11 months ago

    I wonder if it's easier now than it was when I was in highschool. 🤔 I remember wanting to make my own "hand written" font after getting a scanner for the first time and it was an ordeal.

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  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago (4 children)

    How many characters would you have to produce for Japanese?

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  • [–] 13 points 11 months ago (3 children)

    Unicode has over 100,000 kanji, though the vast majority of these are esoteric kanji that are rarely used. You could trim it down to just the Joyo kanji list, consisting of 2,136 characters for everyday use.

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  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    Fuck it, write everything in hiragana and katakana.

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  • [–] 4 points 11 months ago

    Text that's written in kana-only can actually be kinda difficult to read. Japanese is written without spaces between words, so kanji helps to distinguish where words actually begin and end. The language is also full of homophones, words that are pronounced the same but are written with different kanji to disambiguate them.

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  • [–] 9 points 11 months ago (6 children)

    Font and alphabet are not the same thing.

    Obviously nobody can or should own the letter E, but you pretend that the font creator's work adds nothing to that.

    Someone had to do the work to make it look nice, beyond just being an E.

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  • [–] -4 points 11 months ago (5 children)

    That is artwork inspired by the letter "E", representing the letter E plus additional elements. It's not correct to say that it is the letter E.

    Now open a word processor, choose a font, hold your Shift key and tap the E key. What you'll see on your screen is not "inspired by" the letter E nor does it represent the letter E. It IS the letter E. Therein lies the difference.

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  • [–] 15 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (4 children)

    I chose a very extreme example, but it's still just a stylized E, used for text. My word processor also has lots of different E's to choose from, all stylized differently.

    nor does it represent the letter E. It IS the letter E.

    I have E's that have serifs. The concept of letter E doesn't say anything about that, but some fonts have them and others don't.

    Where do you draw the line? Serifs? Embossing? Floral motifs?

    I designed a stylized E. Which side of the line does it belong?

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  • [–] -4 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    Just because a category is fuzzy doesn't make it invalid. That's whynwe have laws to force standardized definitions of various concepts. You arguing against whatever definition I proposed would indict only that definition, and not the broader concept that there is an important line to begin with.

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  • [–] 10 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    So, as far as I can tell, your arguments are that that a normal font is nothing more than the alphabet, therefore there's no art in it, and therefore the creator shouldn't have any claim to it.

    My argument is that every detail is an artistic choice, and that simply making it look aesthetically pleasing or distinctive is art. If fonts weren't art, why would people even bother with different looking fonts?

    But regardless of the art question, if the creator can't license their fonts, it would mean that they get no compensation for when some company uses their work.

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  • [–] 4 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    Can't they just switch to something else?

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  • [–] 3 points 11 months ago (1 child)

    I’m sure they will over time, but I would guess there’s a surprising number of potential issues with any font variance. That’s the kind of thing that can appear hardware-dependently, like certain high/low-res monitors showing fonts too big, too small, or even not at all. So any bug fixes that have come through on the subject will rely on user bug reports.

    If it was as simple as the font swapping feature seen in Word, I’m sure it wouldn’t be a big deal.

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  • [–] 12 points 11 months ago (8 children)

    So design a couple fonts. It ain't rocket science.

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  • [–] 24 points 11 months ago (3 children)

    Japanese fonts are much harder to make than English fonts. Thousands of characters and all that.

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  • [–] 4 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    Admittedly I'm not sure if it works for Japanese, but English has online tools you can use to print out a sheet to write out every character and scan to turn into a font file. Would be surprising if it didn't exist for Japanese.

    So ultimately you probably just need someone with neat handwriting.

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago

    Modern fonts have extra stuff to make rendering better.
    Like hinting, which changes subpixel representations.

    Without those, you wouldn't like the look of something like a character with a height of 10px on a 1080p display and would have to use way higher DPI stuff, with characters taking more pixels.
    Won't be unusable though. Automatically done anti-aliasing tends to be good enough too.

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  • [–] 9 points 11 months ago (3 children)

    Kanji has over two thousand typical characters. Feel free to contribute several to open-source fonts.

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  • [–] 1 point 11 months ago* (2 children)
  • [–] 7 points 11 months ago

    Lol font licensing, I will now copyright the letter "E" in all its forms.

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  • [–] 2 points 11 months ago

    I'd be prioritizing a quick font swap for my assets if I were those devs. Wtf.

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