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[–] 90 points 1 year ago (44 children)

Wait, is it true that you have to burn a Quran if you're going to dispose of it? I'd like to know the reasoning behind that, I bet it's interesting. Or is she just trolling the troll?

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  • [–] 149 points 1 year ago (12 children)

    The US flag code requires burning. Cremation is a thing. Burning is a respectful way to dispose of things in a lot of cultures.

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  • [–] 59 points 1 year ago (11 children)

    Burial is also considered acceptable, AFAIK

    Flag is a pretty good comparison. Burning is the recommended disposal method, but people want to ban it and/or get very upset when it's burned

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  • [–] 37 points 1 year ago (9 children)

    In my country (eu) it's illegal to burn the national flag. It's also illegal to burn a picture of the king (offence to the crown), and making a post like this but with a bible would be considered 'offence to the religious sentiments' (this is only for catholics, the feelings of other believers be damned).

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  • [–] 20 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Yeah, there are a lot of reasons that I oppose laws against burning or defacing things as part of a protest by default and those are some examples of why.

    If done as part of an implicit threat, like buring with chants about committing violence it should count as part of the threating message, but not by itself as a symbol of defiance or to just cause offense.

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  • [–] 14 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    SCOTUS has previously ruled that burning the American flag is protected speech, but I believe they have upheld (or just not heard cases against) state laws that burning crosses is hate speech or threatening speech (which are not protected.)

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  • [–] 14 points 1 year ago

    Yes, SCOTUS has consistently ruled that threats of violence are different than protesting.

    Burning a cross on someone's lawn is an implicit threat of future violence because that is the only historical use of burning crosses on someone's lawn. Burning a flag in a public space is saying you disagree with the government, which is a protest.

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  • [–] 10 points 1 year ago

    Burning a cross in America is not a message that you hate Christians. It's deeply associated with the racist organization the ku klux klan and their extrajudicial murders of black people.

    So yeah you can do the thing associated with being mad at a country but not the thing associated with "get your melinated skin in line as per our beliefs or we kill your entire family"

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  • [–] 16 points 1 year ago

    There was an extremely funny incident in the UK in the run up to the Brexit referendum in which a seething pro-Brexiter tried to burn an EU flag only to be thwarted by the fact that EU regulations made sure the flag was fireproof

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  • [+] 55 points 1 year ago (5 children)
  • [–] 43 points 1 year ago* (4 children)

    They used to reuse books too, so it prevents someone from coming along and covering up the word of God with homicidal rabbits

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  • [–] 39 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Burial, a body of running water or burning appear to be the proper ways of disposal of a damaged or old Quran.

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  • [–] 20 points 1 year ago*

    It seems notable that two of those three are also how many societies dispose of human bodies. As I understand it Islam is generally against cremation of humans, but at least from my outside perspective it seems like the usage of cremation by pre-Islamic societies in the region could still lead to it being seen as respectful even if it's no longer held as suitable for humans

    That said it's also kind of the exact opposite of Zoroastrian funerary practice so I dunno

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    So I can just fling it in a creek?

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  • [–] 18 points 1 year ago

    No, you have to do some additional steps like wrapping it in additional material or putting flowers or something that involves throwing even more stuff into the creek to show you care.

    If you only throw one thing it is littering. If you throw a bunch of stuff in a predetermined way it is being respectful.

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  • [–] 19 points 1 year ago (13 children)

    Interesting fact: any paper containing the word “allah” can’t be thrown away or disposed of using any other method than burning. That’s why Quran has to be burned.

    This is done to prevent the text from coming into contact with “Nagasat” (impurities), which include but aren’t limited to: human waste, sperm, mensural blood, most bodily fluids in general, dog saliva, spirits/drinkable alcohol, swine meat/fat/anything, decomposing garbage, etc.

    I think I got most of them but I’m not 100% sure.

    Now, if your name actually contains the word, then you’re stuck here with me having to burn receipts and whatnot for your entire life.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    does that mean that if any book, mentions allah, even in as a passing mention, has to be disposed by cremation? or that rule only applies to specific religious texts?

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Anything. Like if someone wrote my name and phone number on a piece of paper they have to burn it when they’re done with it.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    so if a pulp fiction novel mentioned allah somewhere, does it has to be treated specially?

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    Most Arabic literature avoids using the word outright unless it’s dedicated to the topic. Even Islamic books often refer to god by other names (e.g the creator, the merciful, the god of gods)

    Fictional books are even less likely to use the word.

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  • In my particular sect of Islam (I’m no longer practising), we dispose of religious texts by putting them in still water, at least until the ink dissolves and the paper turns to mush. In other places, for example certain places in Pakistan, the only valid disposal is by burying, leading to massive caves filled with millions of Qurans and other religious texts.

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  • [+] -11 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    I'm so very disappointed that our Muslim cousins have been lead towards such arrogance as to call our god Allah. It's disrespectful and intolerant behaviour, and unchristlike.

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  • [–] 10 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    I know you’re trolling, but for anyone else curious: the word “Allah” means god.

    We have two words for deity: “Elah” (often in polytheistic contexts), and “Allah” (in the Abrahamic monotheistic sense)

    Both words mean “god”. The word Allah is more specific in that it implies monotheism. It has no plural form. Semantically it means “the one true deity”.

    The closest analogues are the Hebrew Yahweh/Jehovah.

    Arabian Christians use the same word (Allah) to refer to god in their prayer and literature. Their word for Jesus is يسوع (transliteration: Yasoo’a), although the last letter (Ain ع) can’t be pronounced in English.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    We have two words for deity: “Elah” (often in polytheistic contexts), and “Allah” (in the Abrahamic monotheistic sense)

    Both words mean “god”. The word Allah is more specific in that it implies monotheism. It has no plural form. Semantically it means “the one true deity”.

    tl;dr Elah means god, Allah means God

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  • And that's what's so arrogant and intolerant about the word allah. Every time it's used, it's a declaration that only one god exists. How can you love your neighbours if you attack their beliefs every time you pray? You can't. Jesus wouldn't want us saying such thoughtlessly mean-spirited things. He'd want Arabic speakers to say Elah instead.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago* (1 child)

    There was one historical context where it was disposed that way under supervision of prophet's old friends and religious leaders.

    I do also remember my religious studies teacher saying it's permitted as "just throwing to dump is more disrespectful," however you MUST not have bad intentions.

    Also not all Muslims took religious studies in middleschool curricilum and a lot of topics are debatable so people will get mad regardless. All muslims won't simply be "cool with it."

    Hope this helps!

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    [–] 88 points 1 year ago (40 children)

    Burning a Quran because you hate Muslims is bigoted but burning a Quran (or any holy text) because the priestly class is how the ruling class maintains control over the working class in almost every society and religion is tool of oppression is a chad move.

    The bacon thing is a dead giveaway that this is bigotry.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    Personally I don't think they actually did burn the Quran I think they just got a picture, otherwise they've gone out and bought a purchased with their own money, how many times are they going to do that.

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  • [–] 14 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    I think you may be overestimating the intelligence levels of people who do this shit. They will spend stupid amounts of money on troll acts.

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  • [+] -21 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (32 children)

    both are bigotry actually. Theology is a discipline, almost as old as mathematics. It predates classes to begin with. EDIT: edited a word.

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  • [–] 26 points 1 year ago (16 children)

    Theology is a discipline, almost as old as mathematics. It predates classes to begin with.

    BULLSHIT.

    The theocrat was the original 'high class'. The priests have been grifting the commons since day one. All knowing, all loving, all powerful god, WHO SOMEHOW NEEDS TEN PERCENT OF MY EARNINGS?

    theology is a discipline of grift and deceiving the masses.

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  • [–] -1 points 1 year ago (15 children)

    WHO SOMEHOW NEEDS TEN PERCENT OF MY EARNINGS?

    zakat is actually 2.5% of your hoarded (for a whole year) money that exceeds 87.48 grams of gold, given to the poor. Shouldn't that actually be a means to elimination of class ?

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago* (10 children)

    give money to the poor any day. giving it to a church, temple, mosque etc., is just ignoring the truly needy.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (9 children)

    They ask you, [O Muhammad], what they should spend. Say, "Whatever you spend of good is [to be] for parents and relatives and orphans and the needy and the traveler. And whatever you do of good - indeed, Allah is Knowing of it." 1

    I know right?

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    just like christians and the good samaritan - they know it's part of their core beliefs but... ¯_ (ツ)_/¯ they choose to keep giving money to anyone but the ones who truly need it.

    why is it so hard for believers to actually hew to the values their beliefs are built around? so strange... it's like, they believe in an all powerful deity but somehow think he won't notice them ignoring the needy?

    and it's not all believers. goodness knows. but so many....

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    Are you using "Tu Quoque" here? basing on a "Hasty Generalization" I assume ?

    If you're basing on Saudi Arabia or UAE, please notice that you're basing on a country that is pro Israel, meaning literally invaded.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago* (5 children)

    If you’re basing on Saudi Arabia or UAE, please notice that you’re basing on a country that is pro Israel, meaning literally invaded.

    I'm not differentiating between any of the nutbags' devotion to their invisible friends.

    pro, anti, militant, orthodox, it's all bullshit and doesn't need further investigation.

    if people would stop listening to their invisible friends and actually care for one another as neighbors, 99% of the issues driving world conflict would evaporate and leave us to focus on the things that are real threats, like climate, AI, equality etc.

    but no, jamal and isaac and billions of others are too fucking obsessed about what THEIR IMAGINARY FUCKING FRIENDS THINK SO THEY GO 'A MURDERIN.

    they don't even care what their own holy books said. what their own prophets said. religion can build cathedrals and mosques, gorgeous, but it can't stop pitting one pile of ants against the others, and as far as I can tell, it's never going to stop until the species grows the fuck up or destroys itself.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    You know, you're clearly spreading hate with this comment, there is nothing I can answer, this comment is straight up dogma.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    You know, you’re clearly spreading hate with this comment,

    yes yes, I'm the problem, not the ghouls who blow up children. ON EITHER SIDE.

    boy you must fucking hate that it's true.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

    I hate that you're just being Islamophobic. Usually right wingers provide their bogus data to support their nonsense but you're not doing so. Watch this, you might know what is the actual problem in your country: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ez1cn8d28_8

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    you’re just being Islamophobic.

    buddy, I already told you, I don't buy anyone's religion. If anything, I'm deiphobic or theophobic.

    you are not alone. and having had this convo with other theists, I'm the absolute worst - not only do I not buy their religion, I don't buy into any religion and somehow that's even worse! lol

    I don't believe in your invisible friend, his invisible enemies, or the rest of the lineup from any season of this series. I've opted out.

    as a human being, I think it's important to point out how much of our misery can be directly connected to the madness, though. trying to silence me with racist or bigoted aspersions won't change any of it, it simply reveals your character.

    good day.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago

    I'm not pursuing you to "buy into my religion". I'm only demanding respect, based on the efforts of those who sincerely contributed to it (theory or lost their lives for freedom of religion). But it seems too much to get from you

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Doesn't sound particularly progressive. 87g of gold is like $10k and it's a flat rate. Empirically there are plenty of Muslim billionaires anyway, so it ain't working. Would be interesting to tot up billionaires per capita by religion but I don't think it would be particularly meaningful because the US skews everything, and how "practicing" someone is of their religion is impossible to measure.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago*

    Just the normalizaton of this practice is good ngl.

    If a billionaire donates 2.5% of his money out of their goodwill they get bunch of supporters and tax breaks and people forget allegation on how they raped someone and so on.

    Meanwhile even kings, who could do whatever the fuck at the time, were expected donate at least 2.5% in 600s.

    More progressive taxing can not only be justified in hindsight of modern capitalism, but can become commonplace and expected too.

    Also unrelated but not a single king quit being royalty because they had to donate 2.5% of their ownings so that "taxing the billionaires would unmotivate people to start business" was absolute bs for a good 1400 years lmao.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    Under an Islamic rule, the Muslim is forced to do this donation. And Muslim billionaires are not all of a sudden all pious because they have this label. Islamic law doesn't eliminate the need to study politics and sociology you know. Many Muslim scholars, claimed that it could in fact end the poverty in the Islamic world if really all obliged muslims paid their zakat (which is a requirement for Islam, not like a side quest, and should be enforced legally), among them Dr. Abd Al-Rahman bin Hamood Al-Sumait a humanitarian. This might appeal to you?: https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jun/22/zakat-requires-muslims-to-donate-25-of-their-wealth-could-this-end-poverty

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  • [–] 13 points 1 year ago (10 children)

    How exactly is it a science? A philosophical persuit? Most definitely and a very serious one at that. But a science? Not sure how the scientific method applies

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  • [–] 12 points 1 year ago* (1 child)

    ngl, I had to google to realize that English word "science" doesn't encapsulate things like mathematics, law, literature..ect. I used a literal translation here, mah bad. I should've said discipline or study here. Thanks for pointing it.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    haven't you ever heard of christian science? it's not science either, by scientific standards, but believers LOVE to muddy the waters and cast their FAITH as something tangible, provable, worthy of science.

    It's all a distraction, again, from actual science.

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  • [+] -6 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    provable

    yes, theologians argue that logic is enough to prove the existence of God: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalam_cosmological_argument
    If you refute logic/reason cuz you only like science that you experiment on, then you're too caught in the material buddy. Remember that math doesn't seem to follow the scientific method either you know ? Please don't tell me you refute it too.

    I notice that the word I know in my language kalam is a little different from theology, but theology is the closest translation I have.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Mathematics is all about developing logical tools. Basically things like "if we start with this assumption, then you can make this conclusion". After you've developed all of these tools, then you can look at the universe around you and apply those tools to your observations in order to come to new conclusions about that same universe. There necessarily needs to be that input that ties it back to reality. Mathematics on its own doesn't tell us anything about reality.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (2 children)

    idk, it seems to have described so much about the universe with so few input. And can just study itself like in "Gödel's incompleteness theorems" to give constraints on what you aspire to achieve with it. I'd call math/logic/reason fairly strong by themselves.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    with so few input

    Yes, few inputs. Not none.

    I'd call math/logic/reason fairly strong by themselves.

    What does strong mean in this context? It's a very useful tool. No one is denying that. It just doesn't tell us anything about the universe without input from that same universe.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago* (1 child)

    theologians argue that logic is enough to prove the existence of God

    they have to. science keeps painting 'god' into a smaller and smaller corner every day.

    Remember that math doesn’t seem to follow the scientific method either you know

    LOLOLOL

    it's repeatedly provable, stood the test of time, like the scientific method, it's consistency and reproducibility weigh much more than philosophy stack exchange k thnks.

    this really isn't a discussion I'm interested in continuing.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago

    they have to. science keeps painting ‘god’ into a smaller and smaller corner every day.

    I feel like I know who you're quoting, and I remember encountering: https://www.quantamagazine.org/physicists-debate-hawkings-idea-that-the-universe-had-no-beginning-20190606/
    to quote the part that appeals to me:

    In their 2017 paper (opens a new tab), published in Physical Review Letters, Turok and his co-authors approached Hartle and Hawking’s no-boundary proposal with new mathematical techniques that, in their view, make its predictions much more concrete than before. “We discovered that it just failed miserably,” Turok said. “It was just not possible quantum mechanically for a universe to start in the way they imagined.” The trio checked their math and queried their underlying assumptions before going public, but “unfortunately,” Turok said, “it just seemed to be inescapable that the Hartle-Hawking proposal was a disaster.”

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Nothing really predates classes. Classes existed since the first civilizations on Earth. You might be claiming it predates capitalism and that's definitely true but the ruling/working class divide is much older than capitalism.

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  • [–] -1 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    I tried to discuss with ChatGPT and he suggested:

    The San (Bushmen) of southern Africa believed in a creator deity and spirits of the dead.

    Does this work as a counter example ?

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Having a belief system is different from having a religion. Organized religion likely came about out of the need to legitimize power structures (otherwise, why the hell would the populace, which outnumber the ruling class, not fight back against their injustices?)

    You are right that the San seem to have a classless (or, as wikipedia describes it, egalitarian) society. So it works as a counter-example to my claim that "nothing predates classes".

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago*

    otherwise, why the hell would the populace, which outnumber the ruling class, not fight back against their injustices

    I don't really know, seems like something that "Political Sociology" treats. Experiments (like the popular Stanford prison experiment) were done on multiple frameworks, and suggest so many variables to explain division among people of same class. Restricting interpretation to religion (while there are so many belief systems) seems to me like oversimplification. Like We had secular states eventually, and it's not like classes vanished, or authoritarian regimes stopped being.

    In my personal opinion, the division is the most interesting aspect of why people fail to do anything about their (our actually) miserable state. Because when you know that doing a protest leads you to receive sexual violence (rape using electricity&pipes) from the prison guard (who is actually from the same class as you), and the people for whom you did protest will just denounce you for doing "chaos" in the "peaceful" country, it makes sense that you wouldn't bother.
    Here I'm thinking about the current Egyptian regime, which has a documented historical relationship with Soviet / Russian security methods (training, organization, approach of secret policing).

    Why people are deceived by scholars of the palace? That would buffle me for eternity when The Prophet of Islam said:

    "The most feared thing I fear for my Ummah — community — are the misguided leaders and corrupt scholars."

    “When knowledge is sought for other than Allah, it will be removed from the people until only the scholars of evil remain.”

    (Ibn Majah, al-Tabarani — meaning: those who use knowledge for power or wealth.)

    “The best jihad is a word of truth before a tyrannical ruler.”

    (Sunan al-Nasa’i, Abu Dawud, Tirmidhi)

    His grandson Also died refusing to accept the undemocratic rule of monarchy (in before there used to be a system of election after the Prophet's death): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Husayn_ibn_Ali#Uprising
    ps: the Wikipedia article isn't the best, but I just want to bring the revolutionary aspect of my religion to your attention.

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