Show transcriptScreenshot of a Mastodon toot by @ebassi@mastodon.social:

The whole open source community loves Milkshake Laptops, a lovely laptop company that has ethical values! 5 seconds later We regret to inform you the laptop company stans fascists

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[–] 137 points 1 year ago (4 children)

From what I read, it sounds like they were supporting a bunch of different projects based on “oh hey this is kind of neat and could be useful” and didn’t really look in to the background of the relevant devs.

The thread on their forum reads like them wandering in to something, reading the objection as some obscure beef and running the standard PR approach without really realizing what a mess they just stuck their foot into.

Hopefully their cage will be rattled enough to look in to it and pull back.

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  • [–] 102 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Yeah the user who responds by saying:

    This is not a “I do not like this distribution” kind of argument.

    This is a “the people you are sending my money to want me and my friends dead or deported” kind of argument.

    The “big tent” argument works fine if everyone plays by some basic civil rules of understanding. Stuff like code of conducts, moderation, anti-racism, surely those things we agree on? A big tent won’t work if you let in people that want to exterminate the others.

    Kind of nails it I think. For what it's worth I don't think there's any malicious intent on Framework's part necessarily, I think maybe they've just naively stepped on a bit of a landmine? But still, not ideal.

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  • [–] 69 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Someone else struck an important chord:

    Additional edit: I think it’s quite telling that a community response of “I’m not happy with this development, please consider changing your mind or I’m going to spend my money elsewhere” is now being met in this thread with responses including inflammatory fascist and racist talking points, transphobia, etc, while Framework says and does nothing about it. It shows exactly the sorts of things Framework is permitting in their “big tent” by rewarding right-wing extremists with money and sponsorship. What a way to tank a community that – a few years ago at least – seemed pretty welcoming and inclusive.

    The community defense is riddled with typical far-right talking points. "What do you mean you don't want to include literal nazis in your community? What ever happened to tolerance?"

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  • [–] [S] 58 points 1 year ago (23 children)
  • [+] 40 points 1 year ago (22 children)
  • [–] [S] 67 points 1 year ago (16 children)

    from what i’ve seen, hyprland’s community is highly toxic and rife with fascists. is the maintainer a fascist? idk, but you know what they say about nazi bars

    the other project framework is under fire for supporting, omarchy, is proudly made by DHH, who is a known far-right racist. this one is not up for debate

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago

    I don't know who the creator is, but when I saw that in promotional materials for the distro, he uses Grok's website and there is even dedicated Grok's shortcut in the distro. I was like, I'm 89% sure this guy is maga nutjob.

    That's why I'm concerned about the ladybird browser, because in the monthly updates, the guy almost always goes to the Grog's website.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago (12 children)

    I never had contact with this part of the hyprland community. I had quiet son in dep discussions with maintainers and a currently 5k lines deep in, in removing technical depts from the codebase.

    I never had anything but pleasent communications.

    I would love to see some examples (and if someone uses the terms highly toxic and rife with fascist I expect a lot examples) of this.

    Be aware, as a German, I am highly sensitive on the missuse of the term fascist. For example many use the term fascist to describe Trump. That is not true. Trump is straight out a fucking Neo Nazi

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  • [–] 14 points 1 year ago (11 children)

    many use the term fascist to describe Trump. That is not true. Trump is straight out a fucking Neo Nazi

    can you explain that distinction? I was under the impression that neo nazis were fascists.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    Yes they are. It is just more precise. Fascism itself is not inherently racist or has some kind of master race. Neo Nazis do.

    And of course calling him a fascist is not inherently false. But just leaves out 80% of it

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  • [–] 12 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Eh I would point out that fascism doesn't need to be racist to be evil, AND that there's a reason why fascism is the preferred form of government for racists.

    So, like, you're not technically wrong but I think the point you're making is bordering on moot.

    Fascism is bad. Racism is bad. Most racists are fascists. Many fascists are racists.

    The venn diagram of fascists and bigots of one type or another is damn close to a perfect circle

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago

    It was ja joke. Someone who is very particular about the meaning of words is sometimes called a "word Nazi" but it should be "word fascist". Tried to play on it and forgotten that nobody outside Germany has any association with this m)

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    What, fascism is definitely inherently racist. Everything boils down to people with certain qualities are more fit to rule and should be the ones filling the community.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    they're only fascist if they come from the fasces region of italy, otherwise its neo nazi.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Sorry but this is just stupid. Even for 196, where we all go after putting out last brain cells in the jar on the nightstand.

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  • [–] 10 points 1 year ago

    this is the first i'm hearing about it and i'm a year or more into using hyprland, which is frustrating. i tend to avoid discord communities in favor of just reading documentation though.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

    Impossible to tell. Not a good person for sure, but fascist, probably not. The precipitating event happened on the Hyprland discord, which was unmoderated at the time. Someone made transphobic remarks. Drew DeVault (a big-mouthed idealist with extreme opinions and thin skin) kicked Hyprland out of the Freedesktop project for this, and wrote a wordy blog post criticising the community. Then, because media literacy is fucking dead, people who already agreed with DeVault's views took it at face value and ran with it to chase the Woozle.

    The truth is somewhere between the extremes, and if that one article that indirectly refers to the incident is enough for you to make such a conclusion... you and DeVault would get along just fine.

    (edit) I haven't used Hyprland for over a year and have been out of the loop, this info might be outdated.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago

    This guy is full of shit. He's a Lemmy.world mod and had to lock the meme about this because it wasn't lining up with his world view and he's being down voted.

    He's not arguing in good faith. Just desperate. 🤡

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  • [–] 28 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    Reminds me of Milkshake Proton Privacy Services

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  • [–] 26 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    Here's hoping for a new official response that takes these concerns much more seriously and commits to a structure that doesnt allow for these types of issues to come up again. I had just finally decided on framework for my next laptop, but I'll happily spend my money elsewhere if this isnt resolved very differently from how they first hoped to sweep it away.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (3 children)
  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    I wouldn't call that an official response.

    A deeply concerning response from the CEO, but a forum response isn't the same as an announcement about policy change or something.

    Im mad but I'm willing to give them time to grapple with the realities of the box they opened to see how they attempt to close it.

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  • [–] 52 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    if system76 turns out to be shitheads imma blow up the earth with a illudium q-36 explosive space modulator

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  • [–] 41 points 1 year ago

    they personally fucked me over years ago on a screen replacement i was willing to pay for.

    they wanted to charge me 600 usd just for the panel that was available on aliexpress for 80

    ended up doing it myself, and then spending 80k usd on a different company's hardware for the company i worked for that used linux desktops

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  • [–] 24 points 1 year ago (14 children)

    Just get an old ThinkPad like me, problem solved!

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago (13 children)
  • [–] 14 points 1 year ago (12 children)

    No, it's Lenovo, but the kind that still has a CPU socket and a removable battery, one of which could have been a nice addition to framework if they didn't insist on "modern design sensibilities"...

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    “modern design sensibilities”

    How I dislike laptops not having trackpad buttons! No matter how good modern trackpads are, I still just want buttons. And lots of keys, and switches... and screws. Don't care how clean and sleek modern laptops look, they are a tool for me.

    • Bonus points for the trackpoint!
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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (9 children)

    Is that the same Lenovo with the backdoor bios shenanigans?

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    You're the kind of person who brings up the rootkit scandal from 20 years ago whenever Sony comes up

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  • [–] 85 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (12 children)

    This is very in the weeds. They sponsor open source projects as a little side thing. One of the projects they sponsored is very bad, and they were publicly called out about it less than 24 hours ago. Not even enough time to make a proper response. I can't even find on their website where they list the open source projects they sponsor. Open source sponsorship was never a major part of their business.

    This is very new news. Give them time and form your opinion on their response. Its likely that only a small subset of the team works on open source sponsorship, so most of those in charge of the company were likely unaware until now.

    edit: fixed several undecillion minor typos

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  • [+] 33 points 1 year ago (11 children)
  • [–] 11 points 1 year ago (10 children)

    The assumption is that they believe a not-insignificant portion of their customers are fascist or fascist-adjacent.

    If everyone upset about this boycotted and tanked their bottom line, they'd probably shift gears in a heartbeat.

    But I suspect that the number of fascist/fascist-adjacent customers is high enough that they need both groups' money to survive.

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  • [–] 18 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    Well being tolerant with fascists is a no no.

    We're taking about being tolerant with a company that's tolerant of fascists.

    If I'm tolerant of that, would you tolerate me? Where do we draw the line?

    Not trolling, but I get that it sounds that way .

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (5 children)

    If I’m tolerant of that, would you tolerate me? Where do we draw the line?

    You have to tolerate everyone until they are actively intolerant. If you jump the gun on not tolerating someone or something too early, then you're being intolerant.

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  • [–] 19 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    You have to tolerate everyone until they are actively intolerant

    We're talking about fascists, them being intolerant is literally part of their description.

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  • [–] -3 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Beliefs are allowed to be intolerant, it's acting upon them that is the issue. The tolerant utopia isn't one where everyone agrees, it's where everyone agrees to leave each other alone until someone isn't leaving someone else alone.

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  • [–] 13 points 1 year ago

    Examples of acting upon your intolerance:

    • Spreading hate on social media
    • Giving money to those people
    • Voting for intolerance & hate (i.e. politically)
    • Helping them in their intolerance against others by actively tolerating them (tolerance paradoxon in action)

    Guess what applies to every fascist and company we're currently talking about. They do not "leave others alone" as you put it, and Framework strengthens their position through willful ignorance. So for the love of anything that is good, stop with your rhetorical nonsense.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago

    Isn't preaching intollerance just a different mechanism to have others be victimized by intolerance?

    I mean, if you're convincing others to do something, fully in the knowledge that they will do it, whilst you did not do the deed yourself you certainly purposefully made it happen.

    At the risk of Goodwin-ing my own post, Hitler didn't directly murder many people (if any), yet he murdered millions.

    Or coming at it from another side, is somebody who gives rope to members of the KKK during a linching of a black person knowing that they'll use it kill that person not acting intolerant?

    My point being that whilst the boundary between being deemed as acting intolerant or not is indeed as you say not merelly the holding intolerant beliefs, that boundary is also not all the way at only directly acting in intolerant ways being intolerant acting.

    It makes sense that preaching intolerance is acting in an intolerant way if one expects it will lead to acts of intolerance from others - it has the same objective, just using others as tools - and that at least some forms of knowingly supporting somebody who directly commits intolerant acts is itself an intolerant act because it knowingly enables the intolerant acts of others.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago

    The assumption is that they believe a not-insignificant portion of their customers are fascist or fascist-adjacent.

    If they actually think that, they have an even worse market research department than microsoft.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Most of the laptops framework sells are sold with a windows license. Only a small subset of their small subset of Linux customers are technical enough to consider which compositor they're using, and even fewer of them are even aware that hyperland exists and is a fascist project.

    This is very in the weeds. Considering this deliberately marketing to fascists, or indicative of the company's assumptions about their customers broadly is an insane stretch.

    Framework sells microsoft products in their store, when microsoft is actively involved in helping the IDF commit genocide in Gaza. Framework bundles microsoft products in the pre-built versions of their computers. That is far more indicative of their attitudes to their customers than their donations to open source.

    Keep the pressure on, do what you can to make open source better and uninviting to fascists, but keep perspective of reality while you do it.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago

    Most of the laptops framework sells are sold with a windows license.

    Is this true? I thought they were specifically marketed to tech people because of the repairability and modularity. I didn't even know Windows users were aware that Framework exists.

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  • [–] 23 points 1 year ago

    God damn it, Framework, cmon

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  • [–] 51 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    I have a big tent too but you know who's not under it? Fascists

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    [–] 27 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    As another example of this sort of thing, shopify, cloudflare, futo, jetbrains are sponsoring ladybird, while Kling apparently shares DHH's views. It's definitely generally bad to support a project led by this sort of person, and now that they know about it I think they should stop, but idk if i'd condemn the whole company over it. Especially as it often requires quite a bit of research to find out about that sort of stuff unless you were there when the social media drama happened.

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  • [–] [S] 37 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    i don’t think unknowingly supporting shitty people is that bad. mistakes happen, after all.

    knowingly supporting shitty people, and then saying it’s fine because you’re wanting to create a big tent that includes everyone, even fascists, is bad! very bad!

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago

    Also, if you have semi-plausible deniability that you didn't know, but you had an inkling and you didn't want to find out... That's not great either.

    Not knowing isn't a full excuse if you actively try to not find out.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    while Kling apparently shares DHH's views

    Who are those people and why are their views important?

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  • [–] 26 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    kling is the creator/head of the ladybird browser. dhh is the creator of ruby on rails, but he's now working on omarchy, which is basically just a collection of dotfiles for arch but people love for some reaso (personal rant).

    the reason that their views are important is because a lot of tech companies, even ones that were previously reputable like framework, have been pouring a lot of money into these. this is especially relevant for omarchy, since afaik dhh is the only person working on it, making donations to omarchy basically be direct donations to dhh himself.

    while kling has done some questionable things, dhh is basically just a straight up fascist, which really puts the principles of the companies giving money and promotion to him (like framework) into question

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  • [–] 12 points 1 year ago (18 children)

    Anyone want to give some context here?

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  • [–] 27 points 1 year ago (16 children)

    I dunno man, people being furious about a very loose potential fascist association in an open source project while using a platform whose lead developer is a tankie. Kinda wild yelling at framework while supporting people who deny China's human rights abuses.

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  • [–] 23 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Without arguing politics, the world is sliding very quickly towards facism and being on guard against it is incredibly important. I'm not buying a laptop and putting money in the pockets of someone who may then donate to or fund facism. None of that applies to a developer of a free open source software whose political ideal world is not rapidly approaching.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago

    Yeah: literally the only thing the developer of Lemmy gains from people using their software is kudos as a techie.

    Letting that person feel a bit better because of having another user is a universe away in terms of "supporting" them from actually funding them.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (10 children)

    Did tankies bomb the abortion clinics or kill LGBTQ people? Maybe they lynched poc people too like fascists. idk, because they are literally the same.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    Wait, did the dude from Hyprland bomb clinics?

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Sorry for the confusion, I was talking about fascists. They are the ones bombing clinics. I dont know about the dude..

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    And tankies supported rolling tanks into countries where the people wanted democracy, that's where the name comes from.
    They still support authoritarian and fascist regimes committing war crimes and crimes against humanity, but because it ✨anti western fascism✨ it's fine.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    Remind me again what Russia does to LGBTQ+ people. Or China?

    That's who tankies support. Not so different, despite your plain strawmanning.

    Oh right, dbzer instance. Tankie in denial.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (3 children)

    Tankies might support those countries but they dont do those acts themselves like fascists. They dont have same beliefs as fascists.

    My instance doesnt support any kind of imperialism. That includes china and russia. Do you know what anarchism is?

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Hold the phone, you're saying the hyperland devs bombed abortion clinics?

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