top 98 comments

sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] 237 points 1 year ago (40 children)

The title kinda buries the lede there. I thought it was ridiculous to fine a platform just because a streamer happened to die on camera, but no, they were streaming months long abuse and torture of this guy at the hands of his co-streamers.

  • source
  • hideshow 40 child comments
  • [–] 151 points 1 year ago (18 children)

    It is insane how it is even possible to live stream the torture of someone for months without any law enforcement getting involved.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 18 child comments
  • [–] 46 points 1 year ago (10 children)

    It’s all over the place on Facebook and Twitter though. There’s dog fighting, cock fighting, monkey abuse showing up on my Facebook home feed every now and then. This shouldn’t be a surprise really.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 10 child comments
  • [–] 11 points 1 year ago (9 children)

    Thats just like, your algorithm man. -Labowskie

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 9 child comments
  • [–] 10 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    I’d love to know why an algorithm shows me this stuff as I don’t look any of it up. It’s quite traumatic to see. It’s the reason I don’t use these social media apps anymore. They’re all suggested posts and it’s an assault.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 5 child comments
  • [–] 10 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)
    • Algorithm shows a preview of a chaotic scene where the content isn't easily identified.
    • You open / interact / linger on it to figure out what is happening before identifying it as something you don't want to look at.
    • Algorithm detects increased interaction and happily serves up more.

    I play a little game with Instagram sometimes. I click on one (1) thirst trap bikini girl post in the search reel. Then I see how many times I have to press the little 3 dot menu and pick "not interested" on allllll the other thirst trap bikini girl posts that immediately appear.

    I generally have to press "not interested" about 15 times before my feed reverts to only having bikini girl thirst traps once every 20 or so posts.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    I used to get sucked in by cop videos on TikTok. I think it's the curiosity. I hated it. I'd get shown so many. I didn't enjoy watching them. I thought a lot about what's happening and I really think it's just the initial hook of "what's happening here???" because there's a cop. I had to actively scroll away as fast as possible every time I saw them to get that shit away. I finally did, but it was rough. It's easy to fall into traps like that with social media algorithms. They aren't meant to maximize your enjoyment, they're meant to maximize your retention, engagement, and spending.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago*

    FB is known for doing this, plus thier obvious propaganda, they want engagement so any drama they can randomly push will increase that. YOutube is a close second. thats why right wing drama is very good for business in general.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    Generally it shows us content that makes us mad. Sadly, and opposite to what we thibk, humans are more likely to engage with content thst pisses us off. Maybe it took things too far with yours. Possibly you commented on how fucked up one post was so it showed you more. Dunno.

  • source
  • parent
  • Seriously, all these comments about fucked-up and predatory content...has anyone considered quitting Facebook? Or just algorithmically-served content altogether? Am I crazy for preferring to build and do my best to expand my own silo rather than having billionaire-owned corporations do it for me?

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Facebook goes wild if you don't really interact with it other than to browse.

    Pause for a microsecond over something, welp I guess that's your hobby now. For some reason mine always shows me chess. I have never played chess. Hate it. A family member on my Facebook friends list likes chess. FB just goes "chess? how about chess?" like it's got nothing else to really offer other than flag waving racism.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    Yeah. Ive noticed I get content based on who's been aroind.

    Drop kick cousin - graffiti content. Partners nerd friend - board games. Small family members - shitty gen z YouTubers.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 74 points 1 year ago* (4 children)

    They kinda did. The dudes were taken in as part of an ongoing investigation but were then released. I can see why it’s fared for the cops when even the victims are saying it’s by their own choice. But it’s no excuse for kick.

    https://www.ctvnews.ca/sci-tech/article/outcry-over-french-streamers-death-on-air-as-authorities-probe-allegations-of-abuse/

    The investigation, opened in December, is looking into “deliberate violence against vulnerable persons” and “spreading recordings of images related to offences involving deliberate violations of physical integrity,” Martinelli’s statement said. It did not specify why Pormanove could be considered vulnerable.

    The statement said two co-streamers allegedly involved in the case were briefly taken into custody in January but were released pending further investigation.

    In parallel, the Nice prosecutor said, investigators interviewed Pormanove and one of his co-streamers who both appeared to be victims of violence and humiliation. They “strongly denied being victims of violence, stating that the events were staged in order to `generate a buzz’ and make money.”

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 4 child comments
  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    I mean, the footage is all public, right? Why shouldn't the cops be able to watch it with their own eyes, and determine if it's kosher?

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 3 child comments
  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    execution of the law is always more complicated than we want it to be. They could have been let off as the investigation continued if the victim told the cops "i did everything with full consent and it was all an act for the entertainment of the stream.". Cops/W/e the french version of DA is would possibly need to continue the investigation to show that either he was unable to consent to the actions or it was a lie that there was consent.

    I'm just a layperson and maybe it was more cut and dry and the cops really dropped the ball. It just doesn't seem so cut and dry legally to me. Will be interesting to see the outcome of the investigation from this.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago* (1 child)

    You know how NDAs are generally not enforceable in a court of law, no matter if the person "consented" or not, because some things are just not legal, and chances are theyre not knowledgeable enough to make that decision anyway? Kind of like how Statutory Rape works? Yeah. That, but with actual fucking torture thats broadcast publicly.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    Huh? Why are you bringing up NDA's?

    To be clear, the acts committed by these people are heinous. They should and hopefully eventually will face jail time. I'd be happy for employees or executives of kick to face similar. They are complicit as well.

    My argument was that execution of the law is hard and never as easy as we would like it to be.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    By how it reads, it kind of looks like more of a Jack-ass situation if voluntary abuse. There was some mention of him getting shot with paint balls. Also, the autopsy report said he had no trauma.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago (14 children)

    Was it real or simulated? I haven't seen any article make a definitive statement.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 14 child comments
  • [–] 34 points 1 year ago* (3 children)

    “Salut maman, Comment tu vas ? Coincé pour un moment avec son jeu de mort, avait-il déclaré. Ça va trop loin. J’ai l’impression d’être séquestré avec leur concept de merde. J’en ai marre, je veux me barrer, l’autre il veut pas, il me séquestre”. (“Hey Mom, how are you? Stuck for a while with his death game,” he said. “This is going too far. I feel like I’m being held captive with their shitty concept. I’m fed up, I want to get out, the other guy doesn’t want me, he’s holding me captive.”)

    Source

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 3 child comments
  • [–] 13 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Just a nitpick, "jeu de mort" would never be translated as "death game". In this context "de mort" would be an intensifier like "fucking" or "damned".

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [+] -9 points 1 year ago (9 children)
  • [–] 20 points 1 year ago (8 children)

    Should we not be able to watch Reservoir Dogs because there's simulated torture in it?

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 8 child comments
  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Would you watch a torture scene if you're not sure it is simulated or not?

    In a movie? It's Surely fake. On a livestream? I won't be so sure.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • I've not watched any of this, however there were investigations and "investigators interviewed Pormanove and one of his co-streamers who both appeared to be victims of violence and humiliation. They “strongly denied being victims of violence, stating that the events were staged in order to `generate a buzz’ and make money.” ". That seems to me that this was simulated torture, or at the very least consensual torture. I've watched and enjoyed many episodes of Jackass and I'd consider some of the things they did to be a form of torture... this just seems to be the natural progression of that genre of 'shock entertainment', which unfortunately went too far in this case.

  • source
  • parent
  • [+] -10 points 1 year ago (5 children)
  • [–] 10 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    That's a good summary of my point, though I'm not sure why you think it's a "strawman" and it certainly wasn't satirical.

    A strawman fallacy involves misrepresenting someone's argument to make it easier to attack. I, however, accurately represented your argument and then used an **analogy ** to highlight its flaws. An analogy is a rhetorical tool used to explain a concept by comparing it to something similar. In this case, I was responding directly to your question about why it matters if torture is simulated, and if it's ok to be streamed.

    My point, which you seem to have somehow missed, is that we have a clear precedent for broadcasting simulated torture. And, as you so helpfully pointed out, simulated torture not only is ok to be streamed, but it can also receive acclaim and awards.

    I'm glad we agree that simulated torture can be broadcast.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [+] -4 points 1 year ago (2 children)
  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    lol, so now I can go into pointing out your logical fallacies... but, honestly I've already spent more than enough time on this conversation with someone who is clearly very toxic. Thanks for the quick response and for validating my initial impression that you're someone whose opinion I can happily live without, and welcome to my blocked list.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • load more comments (-1 replies)
  • [–] 94 points 1 year ago (15 children)

    Is it just my ADHD, or did the article completely fail to mention why a streamer was forced by two other streamers to stay awake and ingest poison? Did they hold his family for ransom or something? I need context.

  • source
  • hideshow 15 child comments
  • [–] 113 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (12 children)

    If I understood properly the guy was a kinda homeless person that the two fuckers "hosted" in their house in exchange for participating (being tortured) in their streams. He was disabled or mentally challenged too, and there was another victim of theirs that was handicapped in the flat too.

    The alarm has been raised for at least 8 months but neither the police nor the national agencies nor the minister contacted either did or decided to do anything. Every time the police came the victims were saying that all was good and they gave their consent to anything, but on stream they were often asking to call the cops, an ambulance or trying to leave and the two fuckers barred them the exit and threatened to beat them or throw them back to the streets. So they were basically held hostage.

    The whole thing is a disgrace. It was the most viewed French language stream on Kick for months, two vulnerable people being tortured on stream and nobody did anything.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 12 child comments
  • [–] 68 points 1 year ago* (4 children)

    From what I understood the two fuckers will probably get a 25 to 30 years of jail sentence, and some of the people who donated money to them to encourage them in the torture also risk prison time. Which I fucking hope they get.

    Someone took upon himself to save all the worst clips and try to raise the alarm, they have more than 300 hours of stream capture with evidence of torture and other wrongdoings.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 4 child comments
  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    I hardly even know what kick is, i assumed it's just twitch for more degenerate people ald less rules. But why does kick has to pay suck a insane fee? They brodcasted it and didn't do anything when people raised awareness, sure. But the main takeaway is always that people do and watch sick garbage if they have the opportunity. Hell they even pay for it and encourage it.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

    When they were alerted to it, they did nothing. They simply allowed it to continue, and profited from it.

    Worse than that, Kick even gave this channel money and featured it. They are complicit.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 42 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    So all those "red room" legends were true. It's just that instead of being in the dark web, it was broadcast in public for the world to see. How dystopian.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 35 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    There is even a sequence where the two fuckers try to force him to say that "if he dies on stream, it won't be their fault" but the fault of his "shitty health situation". He flat out refused.

    They perfectly knew they were in the process of killing him.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 11 points 1 year ago*

    Kinda homeless? The victim is the largest french gaming streamer and definitely not homeless. There's indications of mental health problems but it's only visible on camera. There are no documents verifying it unfortunately (though it seems evident). The two killers are people he's known and hung out with for years.

    Edit: The apartment was rented specifically for this stream.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 16 points 1 year ago

    His streams were about self deprecation, humiliation and abuse. He let those two guys abuse him to the limit and apparently they went over the limit.

    It was with consent but they still be charged with murder and probably get convicted too.

    This went on for weeks, months, and nobody interfered. They just gave a platform for the abuse.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 46 points 1 year ago* (7 children)

    What changed between the 'months of torture' and Naruto and Safine being arrested, and the '10 days ' leading up to his death?

    It sounds sick that the French government would decide a man is being tortured yet they're not obligated to intervene... while at the same time they fine a company for not stepping in.

    If this man was negligently killed, authorities and kick are to blame, but it's the authorities that should've been the failsafe, not the company. I guess it makes sense that French politicians are Very Mad™ and Seriously Considering Bigger Punishments™.

  • source
  • hideshow 7 child comments
  • [–] 21 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

    Exactly. Law enforcement investigated and found no wrongdoing. They’re the ones who dropped the ball here. Was there something else Kick was legally obligated to do? I agree that there was a moral fuck up here resulting in somebody dying. But torture between competent consenting adults is legal. Just like we’re saying BDSM is okay

    Also someone else mentioned the TV show Jackass and I just wanna know how some are drawing the line here. So are some of the dangerous stunts on Jackass ok or not? Why?

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 14 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    It's not the French government issuing the fine, it's the Australian, where the company is hosted. They probably should have hosted themselves in the US and hid behind the first amendment

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    Believe it or not, prolonged physical and mental torture is not speech, a religion, a function of the press, an assembly, or a petition. You could probably get some of the physical violence covered by the Second Amendment though, if you have a gun and just do a little of the South Park "he's coming right for us" thing.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 37 points 1 year ago

    This is straight out of Black Mirror S7E1 and the idea behind the “Dum Dummies” site. 😭

  • source
  • [–] 61 points 1 year ago

    They deserve to pay every dime of it. They exploited this man's torture with full knowledge of what they were doing to him on stream after multiple complaints

  • source
  • [–] 28 points 1 year ago

    Black mirror episode IRL.

  • source
  • [–] 22 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    I feel completely out of the loop when stuff like this happens.

    I went looking around and found an article that expanded a lot on this topic, https://maxread.substack.com/p/who-killed-jean-pormanove

  • source
  • hideshow 4 child comments
  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago* (1 child)

    Story of my life. Major story drops, article provides little to no context, and everyone in the comments already seems to know what's going on.

    This happens constantly in my life, both online and offline; why does it seem like I'm always being left out? I've missed out on so many parties and events because of this issue.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 21 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    Should get double finned for torturing Jean + Raja almost beating someone to death on stream.

  • source
  • hideshow 4 child comments
  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Mr Beast offering to pay for Raja’s opponent’s medical bills; he’s frankly lucky what happened to Jean hasn’t happened on his watch tbh. But he’d probably get off

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 20 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    The autority should be held accountable too since they opened an investigation but did not force the streamers to temporarly stop streaming till the investigation is finished

  • source
  • hideshow 3 child comments
  • [–] -1 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    I don't think that's a real issue. depending on how long this investigation goes, that would either be meaningless loss of revenue for these content creators, or an easy way to destroy the career of any other content creators too if a disgruntled viewer reports them falsely.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    The investigation started in December 2024, the abusers was taken into custody then released unconditionally so i don't see how the authorities are not responsible too  

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago

    ok, that's a different reason now, I can agree with that. maybe it shouldn't be legally possible to consent to abuse like that. but a law forbidding that could have far reaching consequences, like if a medical treatment is very painful but it cannot be avoided because painkillers have alimited effect

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 40 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    $49 M fine? So, basically, legal for a fee?

  • source
  • hideshow 7 child comments
  • [–] 29 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    I googled and apparently kick has been doing 180 million revenue yearly, so this is refreshingly high in terms of a fine.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 3 child comments
  • [+] -10 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    So they can do this 3.5 more times before it starts costing them money?!

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 11 points 1 year ago

    Yes. I saw a video on getting around Flock's AI cameras and he mentions the numerous million dollar lawsuits that regularly result from misuse of their data and the glitches that cause people to have guns pointed at their heads by police.

    It is a cost of doing business. Saying 'I'll sue you!' To them is as threatening as charging someone a little extra for that order of coffee they made.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago*

    I mean, Kick probably could be suspending people who stream for an unhealthily long time, maybe suspend his abusive friends, but they didn't force him to take any actions resulting in his death imo.

    What exactly is the crime?

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 11 points 1 year ago

    From libé article:

    Raphaël Graven, 46, known under the pseudonym Jean Pormanove, died near Nice during a live broadcast on August 18 on the Australian video platform Kick after more than 12 days of live streaming showing him and another man being assaulted and humiliated by two people. Followed by nearly 200,000 viewers, the “Jeanpormanove” channel had for months shown Raphaël Graven being insulted, beaten, having his hair pulled, threatened, and even being shot at without protection with paintball projectiles. According to the channel’s promoters, the content was staged.

    Deputy Minister for Digital Affairs Clara Chappaz on Tuesday announced her intention to sue the Kick platform for “breach.” She made the announcement after a meeting convened at Bercy with officials from several ministries (Justice, Interior, Economy) and two independent authorities, accusing Kick of violating the 2004 Digital Trust law.

  • source
  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Good thing Sauber is becoming Audi next season. That’s a lot of money for a title sponsor to lose (and it sounds like they deserve to lose it).

  • source
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 12 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (5 children)

    Can someone point out the part where this wasn't voluntary or the guy was held captive & not free to leave or end the voluntary abuse at any time?

    It looks like idiots kink-playing too hard with extra fines to some platform while the morons try to escape accountability.

    Viral compilation threads have shown Pormanove being hit, strangled, and fired at with paintball guns while streaming with Naruto and Safine, whose lawyers claim they hold “no responsibility.”

  • source
  • hideshow 5 child comments
  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    The company is still at fault for not banning such behavior on their service. Freedom of expression does not mean freedom to be violent and promote violence.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • Violence is fine. What's not fine is the permanent disfigurement or death of participants and the lack of preventative controls against that.

    In a cage match, a participant would never be ignored long enough to stop breathing, like they did here.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago* (1 child)

    This comment might provide some insights: https://lemmy.zip/comment/21080783

    Also, IMO, voluntary or not, this goes over the edge, especially on the streaming part. If someone genuinely enjoys this, they can do it in private, and exactly as they like.

    When money and popularity get involved, this prompts more extreme behavior, turning a willing masochist into a victim, and a game into a trap.

    Besides, authorities could have at least checked up on him.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    This comment might provide some insights: https://lemmy.zip/comment/21080783

    Sources for that information should be easy to cite, yet I notice none.

    they can do it in private

    How do we tell real apart from fake performances? Should fake performances be private only when they already aren't? Seems difficult to police without chilling freedoms.

    Economic coercion needs to be controlled somehow. I guess the question is how to police actual abuse while permitting legal performances like the Jackass franchise of reality, slapstick comedy.

  • source
  • parent
  • load more comments
    view more: next ›
    5 comments in c/technology@lemmy.ml view that post
    2 comments in c/technology@lemmy.zip view that post