Pete Buttigieg can fuck all the way off.
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Thanks, Pete. Remember that you don’t use the nice cloth napkins to wipe the boot polish off your lips when you’re done.
Fuckin’ LGB-sans-T motherfucker.
I've always fucking hated this piece of shit. Fuckin CIA McKinsey consultant piece of shit
🙄 Sports isn't about being fair though.
Unfortunately, this has been one of the better responses among the Democrats. At least he advocates for keeping the government out of this issue and that it should be determined by experts in the field, and that we shouldn't put blanket bans on sports because chess is obviously different than football.
Frankly, though, I have little to no faith in either party to protect me. I can't shake the feeling that whether a Republican or a Democrat wins 2028 that our heads will still be on the chopping block.
Looking at history, I don't think this will end up like the Civil Rights movement. I think our curse is that every 100 years, we have about 10-ish good years and come just shy of reaching social acceptance, then get successfully forced back into the closet and/or genocided with all our history erased, and then start to "reappear" in the public consciousness 75 to 100 years later to a public that thinks we're this new group that suddenly appeared out of nowhere. We simply don't have enough numbers to defend ourselves and no other groups will ever meaningfully try to defend us.
Not sure if this will provide you with any hope, but there's some good news as to our* numbers. While it may not seem like much, it's a massive jump generationally. In the US, out 2SLGBTQIA+ people are almost 10% of the entire population. Considering how many of our siblings are closeted, it's a pretty big boost.
(*I discovered last month that my being enby counts as a 'trans experience' so I am tentatively trying out including myself.)
I'm trying to make a "raise this dick" joke, but I don't want to sound like I'm attracted to pete butt guy.
And this is why I've lost all faith in government. Disregarding the concerns of your base in search of more power like this to me seems like the obvious result of strict bureaucracy.
Yeah, so where are all the trans gold medalists before the ban was put in place?
They're gonna run him for Pres if he's already centrist-ing out
The boomers aren't dead yet. Someone has to chase their votes. I'm not in favor of this strategy at all but I also know that lots of boomers are conservatives and that all conservative jobs are dirty jobs (starring Mike Rowe, a conservative). We either figure out how to steal their amygdalas back from Fox or they'll keep blindly voting us toward civil war.
Daddy Pete shut the fuck up. The talk about fairness is a right-wing strategy for slow-walking progress using its centrist division (the Lisa Murkowskis and Lex Friedmans).
There's an army of boomer men who've been disconnected from the cult by a family member coming out as gay, trans, etc. Big Conservative still has a grip on these people using their generalized fear of the unknowns that inevitably come with progress and it's maddening that Pete is getting this one so wrong.
The rest of the quote in the article: When Inskeep pressed Buttigieg on whether he believes a parent who has complained about a trans athlete competing in girls’ school sports “has a case,” he agreed. “Sure,” he said. “And that’s why I think these decisions should be in the hands of sports leagues and school boards and not politicians… in Washington, trying to use this as a political pawn.”
Not a great answer. I wonder how he would have answered if the question was rephrased from a trans kids point of view, i.e. if a trans kid was barred from playing high school sports and the parent complains, do they "have a case"?
Yes I expect to get downvoted
You should. Not because you're some bold warrior for free speech valiantly defying the woke mob like you seem to think, but because you're just flat out wrong. You're spreading disinformation and acting like you're standing up for facts.
Trans women who are engaged in medical transition are either taking high dose androgen blockers, or have had their source of androgens removed entirely. In fact, the average medically transitioning trans woman has less testosterone than the average cis woman. I know trans women who work out, who engage in physical sports and even combat sports. They struggle immensely with the fact that their bodies just flat out refuse to build muscle. I know people who do the kind of exercise and eat the kind of diet that would put the average guy at 200-220lbs within a year, and their bodies resolutely refuse to go past 140-160.
Trans women are at an astonishing disadvantage in sports. The few who excel do so either because they're in sports where those disadvantages don't matter (in which case, there's no advantage to be concerned about either) or do so in spite of those disadvantages. This can be seen in the numbers; until recent panics started leading to bannings, many international sports including pretty much all of the olympics allowed trans women to compete as their stated gender, and yet trans women are actually under-represented among trophy and medal holders. Statistically, by sheer population ratio, they should be winning more than they are.
Transphobes love to latch on to any individual example of a trans woman performing well as if it justifies their argument, but when looked at in aggregate the statistics show that there is no danger of unfairness being posed by trans women in sports. No amount of bullshit about "bone density" and other meaningless shit that has never been suggested to matter in these competitions until hateful bigots needed an excuse can change the reality that sports are doing just fine. The only reason more trans women are winning in sports now is because more trans women are competing in sports, because more people feel comfortable openly expressing this part of their identity.
I honestly struggle to understand how trans women are disadvantaged if they've been through puberty as boys. Every real world example I've seen of women competing against early pubescent boys goes very one way such as https://www.goal.com/en-gb/lists/alisha-lehmann-switzerland-euro-2025-hosts-thrashed-under-15-team/blt569915d6561b9a2a#csbd8503c0a0d0c04d
Does the changes to bone structure and density and muscle composition fade away? Look it may all come under the negligible banner and that's totally fine but the thing is that hand waving concerns and attacking anyone that has questions as transphobic doesn't help when there legitimate concerns at high level sports.
The fact that you consider bone density as "meaningless shit" doesn't do your argument any benefits as its widely considered beneficial for sports performance.
I honestly struggle to understand how trans women are disadvantaged if they've been through puberty as boys
If hormone levels are irrelevant to performance, why do cis male athletes dope?
Your premise that trans women who have been on HRT for years are physically and functionally identical to teenage boys isn’t based in reality. If HRT did nothing to your body nobody would take it.
Except i didn't say that hormones were irrelevant to performance. Unfortunately its never such a binary situation.
I was talking about the physical effects of hormones while going through puberty.
If this persists then there will be advantages.
If it degrades over time then how long does it take?
Lots of professional sport is undertaken by late teen or early twenties athletes, will they still have 'advantages'?
It really doesn't matter in the vast majority of cases and possibly even all cases.
It is something that needs to be understood though given that it's competitions that often feed into the professional scene and the data needs to support it
Does the changes to bone structure and density and muscle composition fade away?
Literally, yes...
Except I don't think it's that clear https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/61346517 https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/11/577 It might just be that a time window needs to be established in which case it's all good.
Before I respond in detail, let me ask, are you open to the possibility of changing your position? Because most folk aren't, because facts don't change minds when positions are held emotionally.
Here's the thing, I don't really have a position. I was asking questions because I don't understand. To me it seems like there are physical advantages of going through puberty as a male and those advantages persist for a period of time. My brief googling from several different sources backed that up but I'm certainly not an expert. There also never seems to be any situations of FTM people excelling at sports like is reported of MTF. Happy to accept that might be a media bias issue. I also don't have any real ideological positions. Trans people are people and deserve to be treated as such I have no issue with that. I can only imagine the amount of pain and suffering they have to go through. There just seems to be a lot of "trust me bro" type responses and down votes to any questions which in my opinion doesn't help the situation.
There also never seems to be any situations of FTM people excelling at sports like is reported of MTF. Happy to accept that might be a media bias issue.
There are no cases of trans fem folk excelling either. At least not trans fem folk on hormone replacement for a decent period of time.
You'll find studies talking about individual elements of physiology, and drawing extentions from that that. You'll find studies that don't take in to account the impacts of hormone replacement. And you'll find studies written by transphobes with an agenda that outright lie.
But what you won't find, no matter how hard you look, is any kind of evidence of systemic advantage. What you won't find is any kind of study that looks at real world sporting outcomes, and shows evidence of trans folk winning more than they should. You'll find plenty of examples of trans folk being accussed of having advantage for performing well, but unless your position is that trans folk can't compete unless they are actively disadvantaged, you should expect to see trans folk win sometimes, and place highly sometimes. That only becomes an issue when it occurs more than you would expect given the participation numbers, and it's at that point, the evidence evaporates.
I want to bring up Lia Thomas as a classic example of what the media portrayal looks like. She is portrayed as a mediocre swimmer, who became a great swimmer when she transitioned. But, there is bias at play in the way that story is told. In order to swim in the women's category, she needed to be on hormone replacement for a period of time (2 years from memory). During that time, her performance was impacted, but she was still forced to swim with men. And those are the stats that the transphobes will bring up, to call her a mediocre swimmer. If you look at her stats from before she started hormones, her performance was at an elite level. And after the impact of hormones, her performance was elite by women's standards too, but she set no world records, and she was soundly beat by many cis women. Yet the stories you hear, tell of a trans women breaking records, and magically becoming a contender. Because the stories are part of a wedge tactic, designed to normalise the idea of seperating trans women from cis women.
I'll also point you at this study...
https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/58/11/586.full
Conclusions
This research compares transgender male and transgender female athletes to their cisgender counterparts. Compared with cisgender women, transgender women have decreased lung function, increasing their work in breathing. Regardless of fat-free mass distribution, transgender women performed worse on the countermovement jump than cisgender women and CM. Although transgender women have comparable absolute V̇O2max values to cisgender women, when normalised for body weight, transgender women’s cardiovascular fitness is lower than CM and women. Therefore, this research shows the potential complexity of transgender athlete physiology and its effects on the laboratory measures of physical performance. A long-term longitudinal study is needed to confirm whether these findings are directly related to gender-affirming hormone therapy owing to the study’s shortcomings, particularly its cross-sectional design and limited sample size, which make confirming the causal effect of gender-affirmative care on sports performance problematic.
Now, it's guilty of the very thing I pointed out earlier. It looks at a single attribute in isolation, and draws conclusions from it. But when you compare it with studies that find advantage in other areas, it becomes clear, that the answer will not be found in studies highlight individual areas. What does an advantage in height mean for example, if offset by cardiovascular disadvantage?
There is a reason we don't see trans women dominating sports. And that's because they don't. Anything telling you otherwise, is pushing an agenda.
And of course, I'm pushing an agenda too. But my agenda is to not be excluded from the sports I love, and not to have sports used as an excuse to exclude me from other arease of society. My agenda is my safety.
I've posted things like this many times before, and rarely does it get anywhere, because people have already made up their mind. You claim to have not made up yours, but if you are reading this and your first instinct is to try and find rebuttals and arguments, then I'd suggest to you that maybe you have made up your mind already. If your first instinct wasn't a defensive desire to argue and debate the topic, then well, you're one of the rare ones...
Thank you for taking the time to reply in detail. That study makes for an interesting read although as you mention, it does highlight that there are statisticaly significant differences both positive and negative. I'll admit that I don't like the way the conclusion is written in that it only covers negative or neutral aspects and ignores or 'normalises' the positive aspects behind body mass. Normalised performance is relevant for weight class sports but if trans men are generally bigger and therefore stronger overall then it becomes a bit moot. The Absolute Average Power and peak power values in the reports correction are pretty significant. This may very well be offset by the other negative impacts listed such as CV fitness etc
As you said, it's a relatively narrow lens that makes it difficult to expand to a wider view.
You do make a very good point about performance vs participation and it does suggest a conclusion that any differences ballance each other out.
I'd like to see a study that could confirm that as it would be great evidence to show relative performance equality.
The low number of trans athletes (yes I'm aware of the irony/difficulty) would make such a study difficult.
Maybe the default position should be to let all trans people compete to allow for such studies.
On a personal note I hope you get to play the sports you love and that the world becomes more accepting. I wouldn't hesitate to play (im too old and unfit to compete at anything!) with you or have my child compete against/with a trans person.
your refusal to deal with simple reality
The irony here is that "simple reality" shows that in most sports, trans women don't have advantage, and sometimes, have disadvantage in comparison to cis women. But that reality doesn't align with peoples intuitive expectations of how it works, and thus, it's incredibly easy to mislead people in to anti trans positions by using sports as a wedge tactic, which is exactly why it's happening, and exactly why it's working.
I could show you the studies backing up my claim, but experience tells me that you won't be open to them. Facts alone don't generally work convincing people to change their positions, because rarely have they arrived at those positions through facts alone. And given that you are vehemently arguing with people about a topic that doesn't directly impact you and that you didn't care about until politicians and talking heads started to use it to stir up fear and hate, chances are, facts have little to do with how you arrived at your position. Hell, you're even waiving the need to look at the facts, by declaring that your position is reality, completely closing down the possibility you might be wrong.
If sporting bodies/scientists etc can find ways of managing the situation so it is proven to be fair then great (the paralympics have various categories for instance, off the top of my head why can't other sports?), but until then this insistence upon something that in many instances isn't fair in a sporting sense creates a wedge issue right wing types can and do exploit because the average sports fan
The vicious irony here is that the limited science there was, did show that trans folk competing with cis folk of the same gender either had no advantage, or the advantage was too small to identify without further study. Study that was impossible due to the very small number of trans folk actively in involved in sports to begin with.
Yet despite that, the right wing types created a wedge, and folk like you jumped on board
How they think rather than what they think. I recognised it in myself and have really tried to get passed it.
Then I'm genuinely asking you to do so here as well. For me, I'm trans, I used to be a semi elite runner, and a roller derby player. I've ran with men and women, and I've played roller derby with men and women. I also know the science around trans folk in sports. So I've lived this, experiencing it first hand, as well as having a very strong personal interest in following the science.
You are wrong on this.
God damn it Pete, dementia Trump in office raises serious issues in the world and you have no other topic to talk about than sport?
and you have no other topic to talk about than sport?
I always see someone with this exact same take every time any politician says anything and it's so dumb, lol
The guy was asked a question about a political topic and he answered it. That doesn't mean that particular issue is all he thinks about, or that he thinks about it to the exclusion of other topics. If I asked you your stance on trans athletes I'm sure you'd have an opinion too, but I would never assume that's the only issue you ever talk about.
Look, I think Pete is the same kind of neoliberal Uncle Tom as the rest of the Democratic establishment, but this was just one question he answered in an interview with many questions, and he's been pretty vocal about Trump and other pressing political issues for like 3 straight election cycles.
I imagine he was asked a question, and didn't just randomly bring it up....
Dems are thinking “if we throw trans under the bus, surely they’ll like us this time.”
Glad Pete is telling us he's willing to throw trans kids under the bus before he makes a run for president in 2028. Fuck him. Liberals aren't your friends.
That is not throwing anybody under the bus. The issue is so overblown, for political noise issues, mainly to influence voters, I guess.
It is an issue, like bathroom use, and I think they are not easy, but they are blips in the challenges trans people face, like Healthcare, etc.
Usual distractions.
It is an issue, like bathroom use, and I think they are not easy
How is the bathroom thing not easy?
You're correct that it's actually a non-issue: trans people are a ridiculously small minority, most Americans who don't live in a city have probably never met a trans person, yet the entire nation has been whipped into frenzied "debate" about fairness in sports, bathroom needs, and other very unserious issues.
The answers are also very obvious. No trans person has ever dominated a sport, otherwise you'd have heard about this. The actual problem with hormones in sports is rampant steroid abuse, trans issues distract from that. Likewise, just have unisex private bathrooms. Treating humans like indistinguishable cattle is already a problem.
None of this, however, relates to the issue of Mayor Pete. Politicians don't really "raise issues" from their constituents, not primarily anyway. They raise issues from their donors, and they shape public discourse with what they draw attention to. Buttigieg could support trans people with a word and move on to real issues. He could ignore trans people and call out Republicans for distracting people. He could do so many things, but he chooses to focus on this. It can't be ignored that he's a gay man also. The intent here is to further wedge between LGB and T.
The ruler class has been working overtime on this for years, because breaking the solidarity of LGBTQ+ people destroys an important progressive bloc held together by shared oppression. If you convince male gays that lesbians and trans people are making too much noise and drawing bad attention, you can split them up and push the whole lot of us back into the closets.
These issues aren't isolated concerns that operate as pure distractions. They're various fronts in the class war; you can't ignore a flanking maneuver as a "distraction" while the cavalry runs rampant over you.
Another standard issue centrist caring more about games than human rights.
Pete another neo-liberal nightmare, who serves up a word salad of Whataboutisms so he never has to answer the questions. His past as a two term mayor speaks for itself, heed the warnings.
“If he’s the next president, I fear for our country. He couldn’t run our city. How can he run the United States?” said Michelle Burger, 42, a stay-at-home mom who lives in South Bend’s impoverished and predominantly black West Side. “Look at all the crime — he didn’t do anything about it. Look at our quality of life. If he becomes president, the United States will become one big South Bend — a giant sinkhole. We’ll be in a new depression.”
Why South Bend residents are warning America about Pete Buttigieg
The part that boggles me is how this takes so much space in the broad conversation when competitive sports are truly an inconsequential part of existence.
It takes so much space because the amount of energy required to ask the question "should trans women compete in women's sports" requires exponentially less energy than the amount of energy required to defend a particular answer to that same question.
Conservatives know this, so they've made a point of incessantly asking it and others questions like it because that steals focus from more important issues, riles up their own base, and causes liberals to fight with each other.
liberals to fight with each other.
Liberals don't fight each other. They fight the left. Liberals are in perfect lockstep: they want republican votes so badly that they will throw any minority under the bus and back up over them as many times as they think it will take.
The use of energy in disinformation rhetoric is fundamentally misunderstood by most people. If more people understood this type of asymmetric rhetoric, then we could actually move the important conversations forward.
10% of fascism is just more efficient talking points.
It's not a huge surprise but extra sad when transphobia comes from within the LGBTQ+ community.
This ain't transphobia.
From the people who brought you "biden is the most progressive president since FDR."
It is transphobia. I am curious though. What do you think the real issue is?
There was a good comment about describing the issue without sensationalist platitudes, alas a moderator inexplicably decided to remove it: https://lemmy.world/comment/18512841.
To summarize: a trans woman who went through puberty as a man will likely have a drastically different physiology than a non-trans woman, which may lead to unfair advantages in some sports. I understand Buttigieg was just acknowledging this.
With that said, the variation between body types of non-trans women may be large enough to encompass these types of differences for many, if not all, of these situations and the whole argument could be moot.
Again, acknowledging that these issues could arise does not make someone transphobic. Transphobic would be more along the lines of making outright bans instead of being considerate of all situations.
Pete, you may think you’re speaking to both sides of the Democratic base, but you’re actually just making the moderates shrug and the left want to throttle you.
His dad would be so ashamed of him. SMH
As a gay leftist, i never trusted Pete
Edit: Why I mentioned his dad...
Pete Buttigieg Just Dealt a Blow to His Father’s Legacy
https://jacobin.com/2020/03/pete-buttigieg-joseph-father-legacy-antonio-gramsci-bernie-sanders
How about that
Every fucken time these stupid bitches think they need to go right. Every fucken time all that does is alienate their own base. This shit isnt fucking hard. It literally couldn't be easier.
This is a stupid made up wedge issue. The real question should be - what is sports and what exactly are athletes competing for?
Why is it the default in sports male and female categories? Is it because they are physically different? Is it because one has a uterus? is it because of hormones so males and females develop differently? We have managed, through scientific breakthroughs, hormone replacement therapy to be able to transform our own bodies into what we want and that in itself is an achievement - albeit it isn't perfect yet - but that's another topic.
If the goal is to compete and display human physical prowess and strategy in a regulated environment then male/female/other/etc. categories shouldn't exist. It should only be rated as 'where do I stand as a human being among my peers in X sport?'
Trying to fit a gender into a flawed categorical system of sports is bound to cause friction.
I just don't understand why the fuck sports are held in such high regard that we have to have politicians commenting on them anyway. Like imagine if a bunch of politicians suddenly took a stance on Magic: The Gathering tournament eligibility, or who is or isn't allowed to be in a book club.
For the life of me I will just never understand why we treat sports like they're some sacred pillar of society. It's grownups playing a game. None of this shit matters.
Do the "Fewer than 10" transgender athletes out of half a million that Charlie Baker, president of the NCAA, is aware of represent a "serious fairness issue", Pete? Fucking pussy.
“Sure,” he said. “And that’s why I think these decisions should be in the hands of sports leagues and school boards and not politicians… in Washington, trying to use this as a political pawn.” Buttigieg added that, in his view, “chess is different from weightlifting, and weightlifting is different from volleyball, and middle school is different from the Olympics.” “So that’s exactly why I think that we shouldn’t be grandstanding on this as politicians,” he said. “We should be empowering communities and organizations and schools to make the right decisions.”
That seems like a reasonable take to me. The leagues and organizations would probably know best how to handle these few outliers better than some old suits in a capital building somewhere far removed.
if politicians can't make decisions as good as subject experts, they should discuss it with subject experts. else why do politicians even have a job?
What makes it unreasonable is that he is basically saying “Let the transphobes discriminate. It’s fine if trans people are mistreated and excluded from society. They don’t deserve protection.”
This is why Democrats have a popularity problem.
“We could make things better, but we aren’t going to, and it’s not our fault if we stand here and watch things getting worse” is not a policy that resonates with people. It’s sociopathic.
Inskeep asked Buttigieg for his own opinion on transgender rights, to which he replied, “I think the approach starts with compassion. Compassion for transgender people, compassion for families, especially young people who are going through this, and also empathy for people who are not sure what all of this means for them. Like, wondering, ‘Wait a minute. I got a daughter in a sports league. Is she going to be competing with boys right now?’ And just taking everybody seriously.”
“I think when you do that, that does call into question some of the past orthodoxies of my party,” he continued. “For example, around sports, where I think most reasonable people would recognize that there are serious fairness issues if you just treat this as not mattering when a trans athlete wants to compete in women’s sports.”
When Inskeep pressed Buttigieg on whether he believes a parent who has complained about a trans athlete competing in girls’ school sports “has a case,” he agreed.
“Sure,” he said. “And that’s why I think these decisions should be in the hands of sports leagues and school boards and not politicians… in Washington, trying to use this as a political pawn.”
I was expecting a more nuanced case and was disappointed when I didn't get one.
If you're going to hand out medals, I think you should borrow from how they do it in boxing: by weight class. Or limb length or whatever matters to the sport, so that you're competing on skill, not whoever was born with the better [insert sport here] body.
Shouldn't the league be the one who comes up with their equivalent of weight class? And Isn't that who he is deferring to in the quote?
Its funny how many people in this thread are pissed off when he essentially just acknowledged that physical differences do exist and probably should have some rules made, just not by politicians who have 0 expertise on the matter.
And this is why any queer person who knows half a lick of history is, at minimum, suspicious of assimilationist sentiments if not outright hostile to them.
🖕 Fuck you too, Pete. You don’t give a shit about fairness, pandering asswipe.
lol that’s ok, Dems. i still remember how long it took for yall to champion same-sex marriage. i still remember HRC’s opposition as she ran for president in 2008. now i won’t forget how your party turned on trans people in the 2020s.
keep it up!
God what a pathetic shit head, no wonder he bombed in the primary. He's no different than Gavin Newsome
Good job, Pete. You've disqualified yourself completely.
Another white cis gay man dusting his hands off and says "Well I got mine" then pulls up the ladder behind him.
Just in case you thought Buttigieg was useful for anything other than Transportation Secretary, here you go.
Yeah, women have unfair advantages over men. It wouldn’t be fair to them, they went through a lot just to join us after all.
But people can figure out what is fair on their own and politicians can learn to let reasonable people live decent lives without their stupid uninformed perspectives.
New party is the only way for progress.
Dems are completely and utterly cooked, mayo Pete can take his identity politics and go fuck himself with it. Behold the anointed dem for presidential candidate in ‘28 in action. Pathetic.
he said this the same day evangelicals begged the supreme court to take up the case overturning obergefell
“If LeBron James got a sex change today, should he be allowed to play for the WNBA and score 800 points per game?”
If LeBron James got on HRT, then he wouldn't play like pre-transition LeBron James because that's like the opposite of taking steroids. Also, isn't Dave Chappelle the guy who had a whole anti-woke special and had Musk on his show?
The billionaires are happy we’re arguing about this, instead of talking about taxing the wealth they did not earn and do not deserve.
Yes. Only a small fraction of people is trans and only a small fraction of that compete in sports. What's even there to argue about?
This is such a dumb take. LeBron James makes about $50 million a year. The highest WNBA salary is about $250,000. Rookie NBA players make about a million a year. Absolutely none of them would give up that just to score "800 points a game".
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