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[–] 101 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (5 children)

Now we wait for the US to stage the coup.

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  • [–] 42 points 1 week ago

    HELL YEAH! 🥳 🥳 💫

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  • [–] 37 points 1 week ago

    Lula in, Vucic out. Today was a good day for democracy.

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  • [–] 34 points 1 week ago
    [–] 51 points 1 week ago (10 children)

    This is why I really like the run-off system of the non-instant variety. It gives people a clear choice and a chance to think. People that might not have voted the first round see a stark choice and may think "yeah I better go vote or we'll have another Bolsanaro running things and I don't want that."

    Congrats to Brazil!

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  • [–] 7 points 1 week ago (4 children)
  • [–] 14 points 1 week ago* (3 children)

    But why multiple election days when you can have a preferential voting system that has runoff inbuilt?

    Thank goodness for this outcome though.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 week ago (2 children)

    Because it provides for the opportunity to strategically vote based on the results of the previous round.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 week ago (1 child)

    But it's still down to two and you have one preference. What's the strategy?

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  • [–] 4 points 1 week ago

    Energize people that may have avoided the initial round of voting but are not faced with a binary decision where they may have a very strong preference rather than a large field of candidates.

    I was also on instant running voting as being a superior system but this thread is making some interesting arguments about the role time can play in an election.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 week ago (4 children)

    The two-round system is actually very similar in its dynamics to instant runoff voting or FPTP with primaries. All these systems feature a centre squeeze. FPTP without primaries is actually a better system, albeit obviously still vastly inferior to a proportional system, which is what all top-tier democracies (and economies for that matter) use. In the FPTP-without-primary era, the US still had statesmen with broad support as presidents (e.g., FDR, Eisenhower, Theodore Roosevelt), and the election of a Trump would have been unfathomable (at least, on the Republican ticket).

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago (3 children)

    Proportional representation gives all power to the parties and they decide policy in backroom deals when forming coalitions. It's the system Israel has. Do you really want to have Israel's system of government? A lot of oppression can happen when a party has to to make deal with radical nutjobs to form a coalition. Why do you think that's a superior system? Do you like oppression?

    "First Past the Post" is a term coined by intellectually dishonest people that say they want "electoral reform" when really they just want to change the system so their preferred party will have more power. We should call it what is really is, a community representation system. Because you're voting for someone to represent your community. But that sounds nice and is more difficult to argue against, isn't it?

    I'm well aware of instant runoff system, and I think that would be ok. But a two round system is better than instant runoff. S-tier is two round community representation, instant run off community representation is A-tier, one round, one selection traditional community representation is C-Tier.

    Israel style proportional representation only seems good to people who think of things from the perspective of a spreadsheet (the numbers all line up... yay) and have no understanding of power dynamics.. F-Tier. Close your spreadsheet and look at how proportional representation works in the real world. How much oppression will you tolerate just so that two columns in a spreadsheet will have the same numbers in them?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago (2 children)

    The problem in Israel is not that it has a proportional system, but that Palestinians in the occupied territories have no voting rights. If they did, a two-state solution would have come out of the Knesset a long time ago.

    A lot of oppression can happen when a party has to to make deal with radical nutjobs to form a coalition.

    Yes, that can happen, but it's still not as bad as having a single party of radical nutjobs not having to compromise.

    Close your spreadsheet and look at how proportional representation works in the real world.

    That's a good suggestion, I advise you to follow it. Take any quality-of-life ranking and look at what kind of political system they have.

    In the Social Progress Index, we find the first non-proportional democracy, Ireland, on 8th place. But even Ireland has a semi-proportional system with multi-member districts. The first two-party system is in 13th place, Australia, which uses ranked-choice voting.

    In the inequality-adjusted HDI, the first non-proportional is again Ireland in 9th place, with Australia, the UK and Canada from 12th place.

    You could also have a look at indices for democracy and rule of law. The V-Dem Democracy has Ireland on 5th place and France (which uses a two-round system) on 9th.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago (1 child)

    As you were typing out your comment, who will be leader of Israel will be determined by whether or not an Arab party will be accepted into a governing coalition. They always exclude Arab parties from being in the coalition. Because racism and shit.

    That's proportional representation. You have lots of options for who to vote for, but if the majority wants to lock out a minority group from power they can. All power is determined by backroom deals between parties.

    But there is a chance the Arab party may be allowed to be part of the government. It all depends on whether the leaders of a bunch of parties are willing to allow Netanyahu to continue to rule over them or allow an Arab party to join them. Nothing anybody can do about it, the lives of a lot of people and the future of the middle East depends on the results of some backroom deals.

    Fuck proportional representation. It's so obviously a stupid system. If Netanyahu didn't get enough votes to continue to be PM but he may still continue to be PM because of some bullshit backroom deal, while you watch him do whatever he'll do next, will you still say "but proportional representation of good?"

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  • [–] 21 points 1 week ago (13 children)
  • [–] 17 points 1 week ago (11 children)

    BC was a decision between a center-left candidate (who was doing some stupid election shenanigans) and a center-center candidate (who is by all reports the most boring politician they could find) in a province in Canada.

    This is not any way comparable to a country of over 200M people potentially falling to fascism.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 week ago (9 children)

    Do they need to be comparable for me to feel a certain way about their respective outcomes? Both matter to me.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 week ago (8 children)

    To feel like it's relevant in a thread about an election in another country, yes, it should be comparable.

    You should probably work on your empathy a little more if over 200 million people facing fascism gives you the same feelings as a province electing a boring centrist.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 week ago (6 children)

    Boring centrists, especially conservative ones, lay the groundwork for fascists by eroding the public sector and services.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago (5 children)

    Dehumanizing people by just thinking of everyone as categories and not as individuals is what lays the groundwork for fascism. Isn't that what you're doing right now?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago* (4 children)

    I'm not saying it is always intentional. But the very ideals they believe in will do that eventually it has nothing to do with intent and everything to do with the mechanics of neoliberalism.

    Conservative describes a set of beliefs and beliefs can be faulty.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago (3 children)

    Only the "radicalized" think of politics in religious terms. The radicalized are capable of doing horrible things to people because they have a cult-like zealotry that makes them think any action against the supposed enemy is justified.

    The radicalized left and radicalized right are the same kind of people. The enemy is arbitrary. The point of a radicalized movement is to make people stupid enough they will give the demagogue leader all power to defeat the enemy. But in the end it's all the same, people being oppressed by an authoritarian.

    I have less concern about the most boring man in BC politics oppressing people than I have about people like you who think of politics as being similar a holy crusade against the evil other.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (2 children)

    This is just not correct. I understand that you shouldn't stereotype people based on their beliefs. However, this is not that. This is their belief in an economic system and the machinery it puts forth. This is well studied. Look at Reagan and everything he set forth, he seemed downright reasonable at the time, but has unleashed suffering the likes of which the world hadn't yet seen.

    The reality is a boring centrist as you call it, creates the material conditions for inequality and public mistrust of institutions, which fascists eventually exploit.

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  • [–] 1 point 6 days ago (1 child)

    People have agency.

    You have a strange mix of the "great man" theory and the dialectic theory of how things work. The great man does a thing and people will automatically go down that course of action for decades because of dialectical reasons or whatever.

    It's really the opposite. The great man can nudge things, but a lot of other people need to continue to make decisions to continue to push things in that direction. At any time people can decide "nah, I don't think things should continue to go in this direction." You should consider the reasons why a continuous push to fascism wasn't rejected instead of latching on to individual actions as being the one and only thing that made fascism inevitable.

    The US has particular cultural issues that make them vulnerable to fascist manipulation. Racism is a big one. The mythology around the past greatness is another big one. There's also a general paranoia of government, and conspiracy theory culture. Reagan's little nudges here and there wouldn't have gone anywhere if there wasn't an environment for other's to continue to successfully push towards fascism.

    You need to be careful in doing the thing where "Hitler was nice to his dog, so therefore being nice to dogs causes fascism."

    Marxism teaches a religious prophecy where it's inevitable there will be a great cataclysm overthrowing capitalism which will inevitably become corrupt. It's not too dissimilar to the Christian revelations prophecies, probably why it's attractive for atheists that were previously in the Christian church. But the truth is, nothing is pre-determined, there is no such thing as "late stage capitalism", nobody really knows where things are heading, there are not mystical signs you can read to determine if a person is the anti-christ or fascist or whatever you want to label your ideology's demons.

    Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Sometimes guy that says they want to lower taxes is a guy that just wants to lower taxes. That doesn't inevitably lead to an oppressive authoritarian state unless people go along with all of the other steps involved in implementing an authoritarian state.

    And need I point out the fact that socialism has led to authoritarian states in the past? Does that mean we should reject all socialist policies out of hand?

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  • [–] 1 point 6 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago)

    I'll concede that I may have been scapegoating centrist politicians when they are a symptom, not an origin. Concentrated wealth shapes candidate pipelines, party apparatus, and the media environment. Donor networks decide who can mount a viable campaign, party machinery is responsive to the same funders, and media ownership concentrates alongside both. Conservative policies are the observable surface of that capture, not its source.

    The actors doing the capturing intend the outcomes they directly want (deregulation, tax cuts, weakened labor bargaining power, weakened regulators). They are indifferent to, or welcoming of, the downstream authoritarian coalition, because that coalition serves those same ends by weakening the same mediating institutions. Both want the administrative state, the regulators, and the credibility of mainstream institutions diminished. They don’t need to share goals to keep ending up on the same side. They need only share enemies.

    Eroded public services, stagnating wages, visible regional decline; these are the concrete grievances that outrage media has to work with. The media environment matters here, and it isn’t a static backdrop. It’s part of the same captured structure. Voting-age citizens, especially older and less-educated demographics, increasingly get their news through social media, and the medium is the message and that message is outrage, anger, and fear. Identity politics, scapegoating, and demonization are what the feed rewards. But outrage needs something to be outraged about, and the material conditions supply it. That’s the interaction, cultivated grievance plus an amplifier optimized for grievance.

    So I'm not saying BC conservatives are the anti-Christ, and I'm not saying they'll be personally engineering fascism. I'm saying the levers they pull are connected to actors with a project, the project benefits from the ground being fertile, and the ground is being made fertile in a structure where the beneficiaries are identifiable. The vulnerability isn't an accident of boring policy. It's the predictable output of a structure where the people pulling the levers profit from the conditions fascist movements exploit.

    You were right that structural factors set the odds and agency determines the outcome. I'm saying the odds are being shifted by actors who profit from the conditions, and those actors don't need to intend fascism to keep producing its preconditions. That's a vulnerability, not a fate, which is exactly why the collective agency you named is the thing that has to reverse it. Equilibria can be broken, which is why this is a claim about odds rather than destiny.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 week ago*

    The Tories are still going to fuck up treaty negotiations, wreck sex education, push old growth logging, and sell off our health system. They'll probably also repeal the single-family home zoning ban.

    Going to be a rough FO cycle.

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  • 3 comments in c/hackernews@lemmy.bestiver.se view that post
    [–] 16 points 1 week ago

    great news! even though usa was trying to rig it for the right wing

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  • [–] 4 points 1 week ago
    [–] 1 point 1 week ago
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    [–] -1 points 1 week ago

    Aaaaaand predictably liberals are falling over themselves to proclaim this as some kind of "victory" over fascism because they are so desperate to avoid facing the fact that it is their beloved oligarchic liberal socio-economic order that has been enabling and empowering fascist violence since at least 1800.

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