This law affects everyone, especially people in the EU and is an attempt to implement ID verification on: Video-sharing platforms, #AI chatbots, AI companions, games, software app stores and operating systems. https://mastodon.social/@madeindex/117285674482286098

We need to: #STOPEUKIDSACT NOW!

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[–] 7 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

The EU’s planned KIDS Act is causing unrest in the Fediverse, the network of independent servers around Mastodon. Critics warn of age verification on every single server and foresee the end of decentralized social networks.

My home instance is outside EU jurisdiction.

It may be very damaging for the Fediverse, but even if the EU outright banned all ActivityPub servers, that wouldn't force an end to the Fediverse.

And the rest of the world?

The Fediverse does not end at the external borders of the EU. The draft applies to providers regardless of their location as soon as they offer their service to users in the EU (Article 2) and requires them to have a legal representative in a member state (Article 24).

You have to meet the US definition of doing business in the EU for the US legal system to enforce any EU rulings against US-based instance operators, and simply having a service accessible to EU users is not alone sufficient to meet that bar. My guess, though I'm not familiar with other legal systems, is that they likely have a similar bar. The EU itself probably uses a similar jurisdictional bar, which is why, for example, EU-based server operators are not subject to Iran's death penalty over blasphemy just because an EU server might be accessible to an Iranian user.

The EU might seek to compel EU-based ISPs to block EU users from having access to US-based instances, prosecute EU-based instance operators that federate with US-based instance operators, partition the network, and that might be adequate to cut off EU-based users from US-based instances, but it won't be a worldwide ban via a legal route.

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  • 42 comments in c/technology@lemmy.world view that post
    [–] 57 points 3 weeks ago (11 children)

    I hate when people validate the core idea of needing to protect children through age verification. Timmy lying about being over 18 to look at some boobs is not a problem that needs to be resolved. It's like requiring everyone to wear body cameras specifically to prevent store clerks from being rude to you.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 weeks ago

    You say that about Timmy, but what about Sally who is drawing very detailed furry porn? Or Jack with his questionable anime notepad.

    Just some real examples I remember from school. You can't even outlaw the pen to stop it, the rock layers around us were chalk. Quite often saw kids use it to draw on paths.

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  • [+] -17 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (9 children)

    tbh, i’m more scared of the pedos that haunt roblox and every other platform for children rather them seeing boobs.

    i don’t like age verification either, but that means my kids aren’t allowed to use the internet except in a very restricted fashion. meanwhile every single one of their peers is left to run wild, so they’re socially isolated as a result

    don’t pretend internet anonymity is an unalloyed good. fuck, just look at the bot farms for a less rapey problem of enormous magnitude.

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  • [–] 17 points 3 weeks ago (5 children)

    As a parent, you should be the one making sure to educate your child about the internet. If necessary, learn how to block websites on your router.

    The governments job isn’t to require an ID to access the entire internet for something that a parent should be doing.

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  • [–] -2 points 3 weeks ago (4 children)

    i'm already keeping them off the wider internet. that's not the point. the point is that even if i do that, society as a whole makes it very, very difficult.

    i'm not saying anyone should give a website id. one of the major things i repeat is: "never give a website a face or an id"

    but the idea that it's just reactionary "omg my kids can't see boobs" is flat out wrong. the internet is a dangerous place for everyone, but especially children. pretending it's not is hiding your head in the sand. at the same time as it is incredibly dangerous, basically all the forces of modern society are trying to force our children on to it.

    this is a battle i fight daily, and have been fighting for many years, and i'm tired of people trying to pretend it's simple when it is anything but.

    you are not going to win over people rightly concerned about their kids by telling them it's actually simple when it isn't. you're going to drive them away.

    you want to tackle this, you have to acknowledge reality, and that reality is that on the internet, your children are prey.

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  • [–] 8 points 3 weeks ago (3 children)

    That is what you signed up for when having a child. The way society in general is not doing the right thing doesn’t matter.

    There are better ways to mitigate the dangers of the internet other than the literal worst option, blanket ID for internet access. Which is what we really know is coming, which is why they are fighting so hard to pass it every other week it seems.

    Look at what they do for kids already and ask yourself if you truly find them to be doing this in the best interests of the parents or the kids?

    This will lead to darker roads for everyone. It’s not my fault, or your fault, that people don’t know how to raise children in the modern era.

    How about the government bring back computer classes and make material on what you are saying? That would be the simpler approach, right? Educate everyone on HOW to navigate the web?

    But no. Let’s always go with the worst option, because it’s really NOT about the kids.

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  • [–] 7 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

    you need to re-read everything i wrote because you clearly did not understand it when i twice said that i don't want id verification. you're not arguing with me, you're arguing with someone else in your head

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  • [–] 3 points 3 weeks ago (1 child)

    you are not going to win over people rightly concerned about their kids by telling them it’s actually simple when it isn’t. you’re going to drive them away.

    This is you saying you want this.

    There's one thing I agree with, it's not about protecting kids from boobs. It's about completely eliminating anonymity from the Internet, while acquiring a massive database of personal information, easily tied to websites you visit, and easily leakable by hackers.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

    This is you saying you want this.

    yes. does that say "we need age verification"? it says we need to acknowledge legitimate issues if we're to have any hope at consensus.

    age verification is not the answer, it's just the only one being proffered.. you want to make this go away? find a better answer to the problem and espouse that.

    here's a small one: no use of internet connected laptops for school work since that is widespread and directly undermines a parent's ability to keep tabs on their kids.

    the answer is not "you're just a prude afraid of boobs, loser." that's how you drive people to the right wing, because at least those guys are saying "the internet is dangerous for kids." and that's how you end up in the funnel.

    eta: sorry about the insult if you saw it. it had no place here

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  • [–] 2 points 3 weeks ago*

    Roblox needs to be burned down for the situations they knowingly put kids into to be honest

    FFS I’m showing my age here but Webkinz had a strict locked down, easily revocable parental opt-in requirement for anything resembling typed chat, and the default was a drop-down menu of innocuous stuff that meant nobody could exchange information to go onto other platforms. Roblox could do something like that but shoving data vulnerability onto parents and kids is a sleazy cop out.

    Platforms that advertise openness to kids should be held to stricter standards, for sure.

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  • don’t pretend internet anonymity is an unalloyed good. fuck, just look at the bot farms for a less rapey problem of enormous magnitude.

    And how is a central (read hackable jackpot) on internet identity better?

    Not specifically I'd verification, but what do you propose for internet identity? Because any collection you make for it, is gonna be hacked eventually, and be a gold mine for the first that does.

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  • [–] 106 points 3 weeks ago (10 children)

    Man this is fucking exhausting. The treadmill of these policies.

    EU lemmings, who or what groups are promoting these? It feels like every time one gets defeated another crops up and that it's relentless. Is this an astroturfed or organic campaign?

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  • [–] 65 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

    I would be very surprised to learn there is an organic demand for this shit. Sure there are some lazy parents who might want this without understanding the wider ramifications, but for the most part it is mix of authoritarian politicians and corporate lobbyism doing the work.

    Any legitimate political demand would not be made again, and again, and again, and again... Even after it gets voted down repeatedly. There are undemocratic forces at work for sure.

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  • [–] 12 points 3 weeks ago (1 child)

    Sure but there have to be organizations behind these policies. Someone is proposing this stuff again and again. This is mirrored by corporate lobbying in the US, where grassroots movements can resist it, but corporate lobbying almost always wins out in the end, because its sustained by industry. So we can resist a policy a few times, but if the same bad ideas keep re-emerging, eventually one gets through.

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  • [–] 14 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (2 children)

    There's broad support for stopping predatory behavior by corporations that are targetting kids (and adults, but mostly kids). This is mostly the same stuff people have been complaining about for a decade or so at this point. Loot boxes, gacha mechanics, ad infested (and therefore stuffed with spyware for "marketing"), complicated multilayered digital currencies, battle passes, daily login rewards, etc. Basically all the well known dark patterns.

    However rather than addressing the bad behavior directly, politicians either through malice or incompetence (likely at the behest of corporate lobbyists) keep putting forth these ID laws that just make things worse instead of actually solving the problem people have been complaining about.

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  • [–] 12 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

    Its well documented at this point that Meta is funding these campaigns.

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  • [–] 6 points 3 weeks ago

    It's tech giants in general trying to monopolize the Internet through regulatory capture. They're the only ones who can afford to implement the age verification methods demanded. Laws like this effectively turn the Internet into cable TV.

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  • [–] 4 points 3 weeks ago

    Imagine failing so hard to create a metaverse, blowing literal billions of dollars and a large chunk of their entire net worth, and still having a ton of money leftover to push this shitty idea for almost a year at a global scale.

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  • [–] 37 points 3 weeks ago (1 child)

    I'm fed up with this shit. My parents educated me on the internet and the potential of seeing things you don't want to see. They knew there was no change to 100% block or monitor what we did and instead made sure that they were always there if we did see something disturbing.

    Now I'm at the frontier age of getting kids and I just know that my kids will be just as smart in circumventing this kind of bs as I was (school monitoring web traffic ain't working with a vpn) and I will gladly teach them about the internet. Hell, I'll even take them back to when the internet of old and show what kind of crap we had to deal with.

    Solutions like these are like a bandaid. You're not solving the problems. And even that is a utopian thought, but they ought to focus on the people that make the web unsafe, not the kids

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  • [–] 18 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (2 children)

    I think it's important to point out that is yet again the EPP, this one being led by Henna Virkunnen.

    As was the undemocratic vote that was pushed through by Roberta Metsola

    The most effective way for all of us to stop these relentless attacks on the internet and our privacy, is to stop them getting elected in the first place.

    EPP representation in each country.

    Use the internet for something useful -

    #STOP THE EPP

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  • [–] 14 points 3 weeks ago

    If it applies to mastodon it also applies to IMAP right? I wonder his exactly they see email protocol being updated to check how old is the recipient and i bet all those spammers will NOT send their unwanted content to my child inbox.

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  • [–] 11 points 3 weeks ago (1 child)

    Fuckers don't understand the internet

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  • [–] 9 points 3 weeks ago

    Maybe we just protect everyone and then we don't need age verification?

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  • [–] 8 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (2 children)

    I feel all of this is to prepare for future legal enforcement of approved internet use. AI is destroying the internet we know and value because rich people want more power, as they do with everything they touch.

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  • [–] 15 points 3 weeks ago

    It is unclear which servers are covered. The draft adopts the definition of a social network from the Digital Markets Act. Its Recital 11 clarifies that it concerns “information society services,” which EU law defines as services generally provided for remuneration. Whether a private, non-commercial hobby server falls under this depends on the legal classification of the specific offering. The statement that every instance without exception is covered is therefore an overstatement.

    Funny when the article itself contradicts the breathless clickbait headline.

    That said, perhaps this will apply and cause problems. Or perhaps not.

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  • [–] 4 points 3 weeks ago

    Website wants to open my DRM software? Fuck off.

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  • [–] 7 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (2 children)

    The way it's imposed on the fediverse is bad, but I like this part:

    The Blueprint is open source and uses zero-knowledge proofs: cryptographic methods that prove a statement like “over 15” without revealing the underlying data. Each member state must provide at least one such solution free of charge to its citizens.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 weeks ago (1 child)

    How often can I probe it? If I can establish you are over 15 but under 17... I know you are 16 (squeeze theorem or something)

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  • [–] 2 points 3 weeks ago

    It's not clear but it seems like the service is restricted to the same age ranges it asks anyone, so it couldn't do that as effectively. Although it could just use when the user passes from one category from another to get their age, at least if the account was created when the user was >18, but that seems unavoidable.

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  • [–] -4 points 3 weeks ago (1 child)

    Hey Europeans, can you make your continent less cringe? Thanks.

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  • 24 comments in c/fediverse@lemmy.world view that post
    [–] 13 points 3 weeks ago (1 child)

    I'm really tired of fighting with our governments to do any of the important helpful things they need to, and then also having to fight with them to not do shitty things that destroy good or worthwhile stuff

    It gets fuckin old man

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  • [–] 10 points 3 weeks ago (4 children)

    KIDS ACT= mass surveillance, fishing out political dissidents.

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  • [–] 0 points 3 weeks ago* (2 children)

    That’s why political dissident has to happen in the real world with people we know in real life, protests are great places to meet people like that, so are all sorts of activist things like volunteer work or community organizing

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  • [–] 9 points 3 weeks ago

    The irony of linking to an article about forced identification that requires you to login and pay to read it without trackers or a giant banner that covers the article.

    With our Pur subscription you can use heise.de without tracking, external banner and video advertising for €4.95 / month. Subscribers to our magazines or heise+ only pay €1.95 per month. You can find information on data processing in the Pur subscription in our privacy policy and in the FAQ.

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  • [–] 23 points 3 weeks ago (6 children)

    A proposal for mass surveillance of all Internet users named the "KIDS ACT" huh. What a clever name for such a thing. Did the Americans write it, or did the same people who write bills for the Americans write it?

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  • [–] 14 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

    This kind of thing has much less tradition in the EU than the US. First of all, European Union legislative texts are actually properly called "directives" or "regulations" (this in particular is a proposed regulation), putting "Act" in their titles is a very recent trend. And then, naming laws with these kinds of acronyms has so far not been common in the EU at all, that is clearly an imitation of US bills.

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  • [–] 7 points 3 weeks ago (6 children)

    I bet that it will be such a mess that they won't dare to enforce it.

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  • [–] 25 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

    They would easily dare to enforce it against smaller entities who can't fight back, is the point.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 weeks ago (1 child)

    also allows them to silence criticism, and censor material that they dont like, current hot topic anti-zionism.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 weeks ago

    ¡Exactly!

    Now, what are good options, I dunno. But I've always considered that it's important for platforms with strong presence of social resistance to have adjacent hosting in something like extrajudicial waters, or at least in countries that can safely ignore things like the DMCA.

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  • [–] 8 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

    I hope we can elect politicians who don't hate the Internet at some point, so that we don't have to hope it will be unenforceable.

    I've been a very regular user of the Internet for more than 20 years, and 20 years ago I thought that surely in 20 years, the Internet will have become established and governments will no longer be trying to attack it, instead we will be living in a utopia of free international communication. That has turned out to be false. :(

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  • [–] 3 points 3 weeks ago

    It is unclear which servers are covered. The draft adopts the definition of a social network from the Digital Markets Act. Its Recital 11 clarifies that it concerns “information society services,” which EU law defines as services generally provided for remuneration. Whether a private, non-commercial hobby server falls under this depends on the legal classification of the specific offering. The statement that every instance without exception is covered is therefore an overstatement.

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  • [–] -5 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

    I don't like any of this but losing social media including Lemmy just isn't that big of a deal to me.

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  • 7 comments in c/privacy@lemmy.ml view that post
    [–] 25 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

    The European fediverse may be at risk, but the rest of the fediverse will tell them to go fuck right off.

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  • [–] 5 points 3 weeks ago (1 child)

    For now, age verification laws are being passed all over the world though

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  • [–] 13 points 3 weeks ago

    In that case, the fediverse better learn to run on tor onion domains and i2p eepsites for federation and access.

    I have been saying for a long time that the CuckNet was going to go insane, and the only ways to get real information would be on I2P and Tor anyway.

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  • [–] 5 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (2 children)

    We must remember that EU is a democracy (not): therefore this is what the majority of EU citizens want.

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  • [+] -13 points 3 weeks ago

    The fact you're posting this means it’ll pass.
    If European users logged off, and directly acted on these neo Nazis, this law would have never even been drafted.
    But since Europe is going Axis again, I don't think they care about the net.

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  • 2 comments in c/fediverse view that post
    [–] 4 points 3 weeks ago (1 child)

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  • 1 comment in c/Europe@europe.pub view that post
    [–] 10 points 3 weeks ago

    I wouldn't say that the fediverse is at risk. The whole internet is.

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