Personally I wouldn't give Facebook and Meta access to the list of people I know with their names, phone numbers, and some addresses.
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No. Meta is a data harvesting company. Any points of data you give them is bad, privacy-wise.
And don't believe the claptrap that WhatsApp is "safe" from prying eyes or truly E2EE. Meta is not and has never been trustworthy, and they have been caught lying on countless occasions.
Use their products at your own peril.
but everyone I know uses them and no, they're not switching to signal...
Well, then y'all can enjoy your loss of privacy. I'm not telling you what to do, but that is the consequence of using their products.
Not with that attitude (like, unironically speaking, you have to be more insistent)
they just said no, I respect that
EVERYONE IN MY COUNTRY USES WHATSAPP, YOU CAN'T LIVE WITHOUT WA HERE YK...
EVERYONE IN MY COUNTRY USES WHATSAPP, YOU CAN'T LIVE WITHOUT WA HERE YK...
Same thing probably could have been said about my country (Germany) 10 years ago, and look where we're at now.
I spontaneously deleted my WhatsApp account a few years ago and haven't regretted it once. When people suddenly can't contact you through WhatsApp anymore, they can still use SMS (which is horrible as well but still better than any services by Meta) or hopefully give in at some point and also use Signal.
Also, do those friends of yours know that you don't have to immediately abandon WhatsApp to use Signal? Both can be used simultaneously, like many of my family and relatives do, and I see almost no logical reason to refuse that.
BRO SMS AIN'T BETTER THAN WHATSAPP IT HAS NO ENCRYPTION, PURE FANBOYISM
They just don't want another chat app on their phone, they just use wa for almost everything
It's not "fanboyism", I already wrote that SMS is horrible. And what makes you so sure that WhatsApp really is really properly encrypted and not doing some shenanigans? Proprietary apps can claim all kinds of things. So call me naive, but I'll take minimal non-sensitive unencrypted SMS through a somewhat trustworthy service provider over basically spyware on my phone any day, although that may of course be because I live somewhere with relatively decent data protection laws (not that one should put too much trust in those either, but eh, still better than trusting fucking Meta imho).
People install all kinds of crap on their phones, but a single more private messenger is suddenly too much to ask for? Some people really are beyond saving... Though I can kinda relate, my brother is just as stubborn. Any way, I'd still advise to just quit WA and tell them you'll only communicate through Signal (or SimpleX, Session, etc.) in the future, which should help as an incentive. If you're willing to do that is of course up to yo
Open source doesn't mean it's secure and closed source doesn't mean it's not secure. Also, if it wasn't e2e encrypted, we would find out pretty much instantly since there are a lot of people who reverse engineering apps like WhatsApp, since zero-day exploits cost a lot of money, you know. So, personally, I would be pretty sure that WhatsApp is absolutely end-to-end encrypted.
Also, how is it a good idea to give a signal my contacts if it's not okay to give meta my contacts?
Also, if you don't accept this argument, then how do you know there's not a component in your phone that listens to everything you say that's above system level?...
Of course closed source software can be secure, but given that you can't verify that it actually is, it's better to treat it as if it's not. And I'm not saying that WhatsApp isn't encrypted, but we can't know if this also applies properly to metadata, or which encryption algorithm is actually used, if the keys are really only accessible to end users (i.e. if it's really E2EE), etc.
It's not unreasonable to think that Meta (or any other Big Tech company) makes their products just secure enough to not allow just about anyone with the right abilities to exploit weaknesses (which would obviously hurt their business), while still retaining the ability for themselves to have access to at least some of the data.
Also, how is it a good idea to give a signal my contacts if it's not okay to give meta my contacts?
Also, if you don't accept this argument, then how do you know there's not a component in your phone that listens to everything you say that's above system level?...
You seem to be treating privacy like an all-or-nothing situation. There's different levels to privacy, with different realistic possibilities and threat models. To give you the short answers to both questions: It's not a good idea to give Signal access to your contacts, and I indeed don't know if there's a component in my phone spying on everything. But there is nuance to both.
First off, Signal's Contact Dicovery Service is open source. Of course there's still a level of trust required regarding Signal's operational integrity, as we can't know if this is really what runs on their servers, but at least the Signal Foundation doesn't have a history of countless known privacy violations like Meta does, which means it all comes down to how much you trust either of those organisations. So even though I wouldn't recommend granting Signal access to your contacts and personally prefer messengers without such a feature (e.g. SimpleX), I also don't yet insist on recommending against it.
As for the hardware: Assuming that there is indeed some component spying on me, why would this be a justification to become careless about privacy on the software level? And the real difference between the arguments is the availability of alternatives. While there are quite a few open-source messenger alternatives, the same can't be said about hardware. And it's unlikely for there to be anything on the hardware level that could be spying without anyone noticing, at least if we assume that this hardware would send this data somewhere, which one would surely notice when analysing network traffic or by checking for emitted radio frequencies if the manufacturer had the genius idea of using mesh networks instead.
However, certain components could certainly be used as a backdoor for state actors if they gain physical access to a device, so I'm still advocating for open hardware and firmware.
yes you can verity that it is secure by reverse engineering, just like someone can read the code, someone can reverse engineer it.
And I'm not saying that WhatsApp isn't encrypted, but we can't know if this also applies properly to metadata, or which encryption algorithm is actually used, if the keys are really only accessible to end users (i.e. if it's really E2EE), etc.
It DOESN'T, they literally state that they don't have encrypt metadata and can share it with other meta services
which honestly as long as the messages themselves are encrypted is sadly still a much better option than sms
Of course there's still a level of trust required regarding Signal's operational integrity, as we can't know if this is really what runs on their servers, but at least the Signal Foundation doesn't have a history of countless known privacy violations like Meta does, which means it all comes down to how much you trust either of those organisations
thanks for proving you don't know, even the signal server doesn't know ur contacts...
https://signal.org/blog/private-contact-discovery/
https://support.signal.org/hc/en-us/articles/360007061452-Does-Signal-send-my-number-to-my-contacts
As for the hardware: Assuming that there is indeed some component spying on me, why would this be a justification to become careless about privacy on the software level?
because it'd be above everything else and could see everything, no matter the sw ur using... so it'd be pointless anyways
And it's unlikely for there to be anything on the hardware level that could be spying without anyone noticing, at least if we assume that this hardware would send this data somewhere, which one would surely notice when analysing network traffic or by checking for emitted radio frequencies if the manufacturer had the genius idea of using mesh networks instead.
Just like with whatsapp...
yes you can verity that it is secure by reverse engineering, just like someone can read the code, someone can reverse engineer it.
No, you can't, at least not reliably. Reverse engineering is nowhere near as simple as "just like someone can read the code".
It DOESN'T, they literally state that they don't have encrypt metadata and can share it with other meta services
I don't keep up with whatever WhatsApp is doing, so nice to know that it's already worse than I thought, but it doesn't really change my point.
which honestly as long as the messages themselves are encrypted is sadly still a much better option than sms
If I could be certain that the messages are in fact encrypted as claimed, I'd agree.
thanks for proving you don't know, even the signal server doesn't know ur contacts...
They do, just not in the way you probably think. Unique identifiers (which phone numbers typically are) can always be used to track users, even if they're just stored as a hash value on a server. They don't immediately reveal the identity of a person like clear text phone numbers could do, but there's still information that can be extracted through metadata analysis. Though to be fair, this discussion is more relevant to anonymity than to privacy.
because it'd be above everything else and could see everything, no matter the sw ur using... so it'd be pointless anyways
Why would it be pointless? If some random person broke into your home, would you just open all the doors because apparently doors are pointless? Having one entity spy on you is a weird excuse to let another one do the same. I mean... you do you, but I think it's a weird mentality to have.
Just like with whatsapp...
Not really, as any unwanted traffic to WhatsApp's servers would just get drowned within wanted traffic, making it effectively unnoticeable to the user. The same can't be said for hardware that tries to connect somewhere despite no software on that device being allowed to connect to the internet.
No, you can't, at least not reliably. Reverse engineering is nowhere near as simple as "just like someone can read the code".
sure, but someone would find out if WhatsApp didn't e2ee their messages, which is the most important thing
If I could be certain that the messages are in fact encrypted as claimed, I'd agree.
Well you literally can be, because if it was not someone would find out instantly, it'd be a huge thing and meta would suffer greatly if they lied about e2ee
They do, just not in the way you probably think. Unique identifiers (which phone numbers typically are) can always be used to track users, even if they're just stored as a hash value on a server. They don't immediately reveal the identity of a person like clear text phone numbers could do, but there's still information that can be extracted through metadata analysis. Though to be fair, this discussion is more relevant to anonymity than to privacy.
Sealed sender...., also signal is private, not anonymous, if you want both, simplex is ur friend
Why would it be pointless? If some random person broke into your home, would you just open all the doors because apparently doors are pointless?
well that's not the same situation the robber wouldn't see everything, the hw component would.... also other doors have the function of keeping heat inside, not keeping robbers away
Not really, as any unwanted traffic to WhatsApp's servers would just get drowned within wanted traffic, making it effectively unnoticeable to the user. The same can't be said for hardware that tries to connect somewhere despite no software on that device being allowed to connect to the internet.
Well again if it did something like that, we would know thanks ro reverse engineering
sure, but someone would find out if WhatsApp didn't e2ee their messages, which is the most important thing
Not necessarily. Code can be obfuscated.
Well you literally can be, because if it was not someone would find out instantly, it'd be a huge thing and meta would suffer greatly if they lied about e2ee
"Instantly", yeah, sure... WhatsApp isn't really used for secure communication (I wonder why), but by normies who don't know any better. I doubt most users would care if something like this came to light.
Sealed sender...., also signal is private, not anonymous, if you want both, simplex is ur friend
Sealed sender has nothing to do with this, as it applies to messages. You can still build a profile of users based on which users submit which hashes for contact discovery, without the need for them to send any message to those contacts at all.
well that's not the same situation the robber wouldn't see everything, the hw component would.... also other doors have the function of keeping heat inside, not keeping robbers aw
Not necessarily true, and also not really relevant to the analogy. If a hardware component would spy on basically everything, I'd find it weird to just say "Hey Intel, you already have all my data any way, so I'm just going to freely give it to Meta as well."
Well again if it did something like that, we would know thanks ro reverse engineering
You're putting too much blind trust in reverse engineering. And since you seem to be insistent on naively trusting Meta and proprietary applications, I won't try to convince you otherwise. Have fun, I guess.
Not necessarily. Code can be obfuscated
Sure, but someone would still find out. We can be 100% sure of that, so it's still better than SMS period.
Instantly", yeah, sure... WhatsApp isn't really used for secure communication (I wonder why), but by normies who don't know any better. I doubt most users would care if something like this came to light
You have no idea how many businesses use WhatsApp and have their trade secrets on there even. And it is used for secure communication in the real world, in a lot of cases.
Sealed sender has nothing to do with this, as it applies to messages. You can still build a profile of users based on which users submit which hashes for contact discovery, without the need for them to send any message to those contacts at all.
That assumes the server can see which hashes belong to which account. Signal’s contact discovery is designed to match contacts inside a protected enclave, so the server doesn’t get a readable list of them. It may see that a lookup happened, but that alone doesn’t show it can build a contact profile
Not necessarily true, and also not really relevant to the analogy. If a hardware component would spy on basically everything, I'd find it weird to just say "Hey Intel, you already have all my data any way, so I'm just going to freely give it to Meta as well."
Well, have you ever heard of Prism? But I do agree that the less companies you give your data, the better. But still... I don't really think in this scenario it would make any difference.
You're putting too much blind trust in reverse engineering. And since you seem to be insistent on naively trusting Meta and proprietary applications, I won't try to convince you otherwise. Have fun, I guess.
No, I'm not. You're putting way too much trust into open source software, since I'm sure you don't read all the lines of code that there are. You're basically doing the same thing as me.
The bigger question is why are your so-called friends not respecting your privacy? Anyone who wouldn't switch to signal for me is not someone I would want to call a friend.
But as the other person said, no it's not safe to use WhatsApp.
because they don't care about privacy and I also need business associates on there...
how am I their friend if I'm forcing them to care about something they don't care about.
also they "want to give meta their data so that the algorithm keeps them on the app as long as possible", since they got nothing to do. also these friends are more like colleagues than anything else, but I need to keep up with them because of work
You wouldn't be forcing them to care about something they don't care about. You don't have to care about privacy to use signal.
I have friends from all walks of life that message me on signal because that's all I use, most of them don't care about privacy. To them it's just another messaging app like WhatsApp, messenger, discord, etc.
But I guess that's unfortunately not an option in your particular circumstance
I believe whats app is 'true' e2ee, as its easy to audit. Meta couldnt really give a shit about your messages. However, having access to your device is a Goldmine
This is literally the main thing Meta is interested in. DO NOT EVER DO THAT, please.
This app can be used as a work around to add contacts in WhatsApp: https://f-droid.org/en/packages/dev.theolm.wwc/
Or this one: https://f-droid.org/en/packages/org.vinaygopinath.launchchat/
but it doesn't show u ppls names, and when you have a lot of ppl on the app, it's impossible to keep track od them...
also ur carrier knows ur contact list aswell...
It is also inconvenient in many other ways, because Meta makes it intentionally annoying to use WhatsApp without contact permissions 🤷
And no, your carrier does not have access to your phone's contact list. There is a lot more privacy relevant details in it than pure calling information.
Yes they do, when I message them via sms, which I've done w most od my contacts list
No, why would give sending SMS give access to your contact list? The carrier has no system access to the phone contacts app.
Edit: The phone contact app includes a lot more details than just the number. Names, alternative numbers, associated email addresses etc are all in the contacts app and potentially accessible to WhatsApp.
What the carrier has is no different to what WhatsApp gets when you use a number on their service.
Actually, some carrier and SMS apps do need that permission.
I've been refusing to give them permission for about 5 years now, and the only ill effect I've really had is not having a name associated with the contact when texting them
You need to ask your contacts if that's ok. Not us.
Yeah, here in Germany, we've had a verdict that you need to get written permission from all your contacts, if you give WhatsApp access to their data: https://www.rv.hessenrecht.hessen.de/bshe/document/LARE190000029
I would assume, the same is true in the entire EU.
What happens if you don't get them?
what about signal, is that illegal aswell?
bro pretty much all of them use WhatsApp, let's be real
are the terms that you accept when using WhatsApp real enough for you?
You provide us, in accordance with applicable laws, the phone numbers in your mobile address book on a regular basis, including those of both the users of our Services and your other contacts. You confirm you are authorized to provide us such numbers to allow us to provide our Services.
I've not read an actual answer to your question in the comments so far.
If you live somewhere where WhatsApp is the dominant chat app, then you are already a data point for Meta. Unless nobody has your phone number in their contacts.
If you're concerned about a specific entry in your list of contacts, then it depends on your own point of view. You could use the same logic a above to justify sharing it. You could also decide that you don't like that logic and you do not.
So, how much worse is it? Probably inconsequential.
Just to add some aluminium; when using whatsapp your phone data (brand, android version, etc) are added to big data.
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