That went down pretty easy actually
post
I personally don't find those pills particularly hard to swallow! I chug 'em by the fistful
This is an argument born of semantics.
I'm somewhat left but live in a capitalist society.
I don't really care if that leads you to categorise me as "not leftist'
Being in a capitalist system isn’t the decider, propping it up is. Do you want to overthrow the capitalist system or do you want to add safeguards to make it more palatable?
That's a pretty big question.
I think, all things considered I do not wish to "overthrow the capitalist system", so that means I'm in the latter category.
That said, I believe that overthrowing the capitalist system would require much suffering. Violent armed conflict. Famine. Social upheaval and unrest. Additionally, with a strong likelihood that the processed would be derailed and produce a dystopia rather than the socialist age the revolutionists might intend.
That being the case the portion of people who would belong to the former category if fully informed would be infinitessimal.
That said, I believe that overthrowing the capitalist system would require much suffering. Violent armed conflict. Famine. Social upheaval and unrest. Additionally, with a strong likelihood that the processed would be derailed and produce a dystopia rather than the socialist age the revolutionists might intend.
This is a right wing view because it ignores the bloodshed and suffering currently being furthered by capitalist exploitation. It implicitly supports a hierarchy where we can live in peace while the global South is destroyed and robbed. Do you not see the armed conflict currently being waged by capitalists to manipulate the flow of resources like oil across the world? Or look at how many people die each year due to exposure and starvation in capitalist countries. The wealth of the working people is stolen everyday to fund genocide and imposed famines.
We live in a murderous horrific dystopia, the only difference is you are able to distance yourself from it because of the way in which imperialism inflicts the suffering on foreign people overseas while protecting the chosen people at home.
What happened in France after the French Revolution?
Spoiler: they almost immediately became a dictatorship. And no, not the kind tankies like.
So let's just give up and let everyone in the world die in misery and never try to make anything better. Children are being murdered everyday by US aligned imperialism, my parents died too young because of the poor health effects from poverty, I see struggling homeless people constantly. If you don't want to change anything you are massively privileged or have no empathy for suffering people.
Is there a Project 2025 alternative for the left?
I do a push up after every time I read “unity/e/divide [the] left.”
Now I got agitprop to reshare.
How is "dividing the left" if they don't share any of the same goals or methods?
Gatekeeping a Progressive Movement by denying entry to those who do not meet your ideological standards, even though those people share similar frustrations, is pretty devisive.
Abdul El-Sayed is a great example. He bills himself as a Capitalist, but is pushing for socialist policies (socialized medicine, taxing the rich to support social initiatives, banning corporate home ownership):
When asked point-blank if he considers himself a socialist, El-Sayed didn’t flinch.
"I'm not. I'm a capitalist who just understands capitalism," he said.
He is a Democrat and refusing to support him because he doesn't fully align with what YOU think is the absolute moral position is very short-sighted.
Whether or not he follows through with his promises remains to be seen, but for now he is representing Leftist policies that I certainly want to see implemented.
"Taxing the rich" and "no corporate home ownership" are not socialist policies - these are social-democrat compromises. They might be improvements over the status quo, but that's an extremely low bar, and they will likely fail to solve bigger issues, or even buffer them against further change.
Pop open his platform page and pretend he is being honest. Are there any policies that you would like to see implemented in your area?
If he gets elected and fails to substantially deliver on his promises, I'll be the first in line to disavow him.
Voting isn't the end all be all of change, but it is a method that has shown it can result in massive change (see Zohran Mandani and Donald Trump for the extremes of that change.)
The virtues of his policies are irrelevant to your description of them as "socialist" policies - your understanding of what a socialist is and/or believes is incorrect.
ETA: also, Mamdani is not "extreme" by any metric, except perhaps "ignorant American political spectrum"
Aside from his position on socialized medicine, yeah I gave bad examples.
I will fight to expand Medicare to cover all necessary healthcare, including vision, dental, and hearing, and extend it to every single American from cradle to grave without premiums, copays, or deductibles. Medicare should be automatic, for everyone, and accepted everywhere.
Pardon me for using the American political spectrum to define what is extreme in the country I live in.
"Expanding Medicare" is also not a socialist policy - healthcare should be entirely divorced from any concept of "cost".
I'm not attempting to shame you for your ignorance, merely make you aware of it. Read socialist literature and philosophy before making claims about whose policies adhere to it.
Fair enough, I guess I mixed up social policies and socialist policies. Got any recommendations aside from Das Kapital?
We have a whole library.
healthcare should be entirely divorced from any concept of “cost”.
There will always be limits on how much effort we are able or willing to spend on keeping someone alive, improving their condition, or accomodating their needs. While expressing these limits in a single fungible currency that is also used to pay for mansions and video games is silly, considering the cost is necessary in some non-capitalist sense of the word.
At some point a nurse will go home and rest. At some point a farmer will stop tending more crops so people can be hospital workers instead of farmers while still having access to food, and go home to rest. At some point a scientist will be too miserable working as a medical researcher and go design a better solar panel instead. At some point a doctor will despair of finding a way to cure one patient and go cure five other patients whose conditions are just as severe but simply more treatable.
The cost of helping someone can become too great, and we need a language to coordinate our efforts and our limits. That is as true in anarchism as in state communism as in capitalism.
Free your capital✊🏿
I hope your method works and we all arrive at a better future!
SoupBrick be like

Nice assumption, but I don't have capital to speak of nor do I foresee being able to afford any (including one house, nonetheless two.)
I am a working class Leftist, whether you choose to believe it or not.
I just believe there are multiple methods of change and it is stupid to throw one away because it violates your ideological purity.
Actual leftists would also recognize the reality of the system and acknowledge that Dems are considerably less destructive than Republicans and so would advocate voting for Dems as a method of harm reduction while working to reform the system. You're not doing that.
Actual leftists would recognize that voting for the child-killers that support the Republicans and help them build out their projects aren't actually harm-reduction in the long run. The Democrats are simply a tool to keep leftists satisfied with worthless demonstrations and political posturing, without actually opposing the Republicans.
Fuck off accelerationist. Propose an actually realistic option that doesn't give republicans power. I'll wait.
I like how libs always have to tell me what it is that I believe, instead of engaging with the things that I say.
The obvious is to vote 3rd party. But mostly realize that voting is one of the least effective methods that we have. Rebellion, sharing information, protesting, mutual aide, joining and building unions, etc.
I also like how your criteria is "...doesn’t give republicans power", something that the Democrats do all the time.
A third party vote is in very nearly every district in the US a spoiler vote because third parties are fundamentally unviable in very nearly every district in the US. If you're politically informed and engaged you'd already know about the incredibly well documented spoiler effect. But you're not engaging in good faith in the first place are ya?
A third party vote is in very nearly every district in the US a spoiler vote because third parties are fundamentally unviable in very nearly every district in the US.
That assumes that every third party vote is going to the candidate you want, which is clearly not true.
If you’re politically informed and engaged you’d already know about the incredibly well documented spoiler effect.
And if you're politically informed, you know that the Democrats would rather let the Republicans win, then let leftists have a chance. They spend more time punching left, than they do fighting Republicans.
But you’re not engaging in good faith in the first place are ya?
The person who told me what my beliefs are, ignores the points I've made, and has hypocritical standards is accusing me of not engaging in good faith?
Classic lib
The troll farms and bots have been in full force as of late.
The both sides are the same propaganda and obsession with labels about "true leftists" has been pretty obvious. You also get like 4 or 5 replies if you point this out even on a post with zero comments and little upvotes.
Its to discourage voting at the end of the day and we should be wary of instances where that seems to be the main type of posts like lemmy.ML
Its to discourage voting at the end of the day....
Well, sorta. It's to discourage voting for the people who bombed kids, supported rapists, supported ICE, increased funding to the US military, funded torture and kidnapping programs, etc. Luckily there are other options than those.
It's also meant to discourage people from only voting, and then going back to brunch as soon as the "Good child-bombers" get elected.
How does not voting help with that? Who are you suggesting to vote for?
Bet you won't give a direct answer to this just like your response didn't answer anything either but I'm still gonna call it out lol
Who said anything about not voting? I certainly didn't.
I'd suggest you vote 3rd party.
Bet you won’t give a direct answer to this just like your response didn’t answer anything either but I’m still gonna call it out lol
Can you point to a single instance where this is true?
Libs accusing me of the things that they do: Episode 2394
You know I was going to add in that you'll probably say third party and I recently responded to another user on here with the following:
"Only an actual idiot would vote third party with how so yes, you even mentioning them tells me you're an idiot/bot/foreign troll. Everyone knows this."
We all know that's not how the system is designed and only risks Republicans winning but you probably already know this too.
Ah, yes, the people who say that they don't want genocide, but continue to vote for more genocide are calling me an idiot. What a harsh insult from such intellectual titans.
The Democrats knew that risk, but keep chosing to run terrible candidates, with terrible policies, instead of popular candidates, with popular policies. But something tells me that I won't hear you blaming them for that. You'll still be here blaming me, even though a lot of us were warning them that their actions would help Trump win.
Republicans are in power because of FPTP, so literally everyone against the Republicans is vocally against FPTP.
votes for Republicans is what gives them power
REAL Leftists DO NOT use the ballot box to fight against fascism!
EVEN if you are voting for a candidate who is promising Leftist policies, you are STILL not a Leftist!
Capitalists (EVEN workers who own NO capital) CANNOT be part of this movement until they sell ALL their belongings that could be CONSIDERED capital!
When you ask a Democrat how to takedown fascism, you get anti-intersecting comments like these, instead of demolishing deathcamps.
If only electoralists voted at the deathcamps😔
How does NOT voting abolish deathcamps?
It sure seems like there is a lot more death camps after people didn't vote in 2024.
MY argument is for American citizens to use their privilege to vote.
Because one is a physical direct activity, while the other makes Obama & Biden lie again.
privilege to vote
Glad you admit your class, bourgie.
So your belief is that you have to choose between either voting or direct action?
You can waste your time reregistering to vote and demolish deathcamps. But Democrats will arrest you for the latter.
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The Republicans don't want Leftists or Democrats to vote, which I guess is a position you can find common ground with them on.
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Not sure what police cooperating with the federal gestapo has to do with voting or not voting, but I guess maybe don't give the thin blue line party a free victory?
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Again, the REPUBLICAN gestapo doing gestapo shit. (I am aware Biden was a POS by way of immigration policy as well, but the Republicans have enabled and funded ICE to do damage at a much larger scale than before.)
- Here is Abdul's position on ICE:
ICE has become a tool for autocracy. Its culture of aggression, impunity, and disregard for the rule of law cannot be reformed or retrained. It must be abolished.
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https://ibbit.at/post/202598 leads to https://jordanlarson.info/ did you mean to put this link there? 🤣
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Hell yeah, brother. I can get onboard with some Liberal bashing. Fuck his non-commitment to getting ICE out.
Should immigrants be deported if they commit a serious crime?
Abdul El-Sayed voterbase
Yes
What? Did you expect the answer to be No? I think any government will arrest activists who engage in destructive direct action.
- Yeah, those are the Democrats the Progressive Leftist are trying to force out of the government with grassroots campaigns. Winning those seats requires voting.
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Actual leftists comprehend direct action preceed democratic collective decision making. Democrats do neither. Democrats are Republicans who always impoverish the population. There’s no single Democrat intersecting with civilians, and giving their capital to constituents.
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That these Democrats side with Nazis, again, again, again, and again. Those are Democrat cops.
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Obama could have abolished ICE twice. He didn't, because slavery is cost effective. Biden also deported more people than both combined. They are the same party.
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I linked Abdul El-Sayed’s own platform too. He is willing to deport people based on arbitrary crimes. Knowning full well legal and illegal migrants pay more in taxes than landlords.
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Then, when are Democrats going to empower us. Where’s the “Demolition for liberation” militia?
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Then you're a liberal, that is ok when Nazis and liberals vanguard their crimes with law, but oppress the larcenied (tax “payers”) with enforcement. The fact AI companies are not applied the same set of copyright laws prove what Democrats intend to arbitrate for “criminal” migrants. Rules for thee, not me.
- Seats they arbitrate gerrymandering, and College Electorates. Democrats are the bourgeoisie. They are the enemy of the proletariat, time immemorial. Learn your enemy, so you can fight them effectively.
Notice how not once during this discussion did I say that direct action was not effective means of change?
My primary point was that to throw away your vote is to throw away a chance at making a change in our VERY flawed government.
I hope you are able to find enough people who meet your standard of what a leftist is in order to affect real change. Evidently, I am not one of them.
Neither did I. But you seem convinced a Democrat won't betray our direct acts. When I have detailed you example after example of Democrats still betraying constituents.
My point is that voting in their system is a waste of time, that if you have the “privilege” of doing, we could be demolishing a deathcamp right now. But Abdul El-Sayed isn't empowering you and me do to so, or is Kamela or the DNC. The government is flawed, because it was designed that way from the start. They created voting to distract you. Not to empower us.
You have demonstrated four times now, that you side with Democrats, and their bourgeoisie praxis. So I can only evidently act as you are enemy, and not a proletariat worried you won't get deathcamped tonight. We should be insurrecting both sides of the coin of Nazism in Congress. Not worry how they’ll gerrymander our ballots this November.
I have seen the betrayals and didn't have any hope in the system until Zohran Mandani made it through and showed that American politics CAN have a positive impact on the proletariat's life. Now I believe that we CAN course correct. It is just up to the grassroots organizers and people with the privilege to vote to drive that ONE method of change (electoral).
Brother, I am in the minority of Americans who are politically sentient and consider themselves Leftists.
If you think I am an enemy, then your movement will consider the majority of Americans, who are fully politically apathetic, as enemies.
The average American has far more favorable view of the police than I do. They think Law & Order: SVU is a documentary.
Not sure how you are going to get more than 30 people on board, my man.
Go to a protest and talk to real people about their views and listen. I would imagine that you hate protestors because they are 'performative', but those are the people who are invested in politics, aware of what is going on, and show up to voice their discontent. See how many people meet your criteria of 'not an enemy'.
You need a movement to create real change, you need people for a movement.
A singular city mayor that doesn't demolish 4 deathcamps in his state, that recently arrested protestors of a war criminal. I am unsure how you're using the word “grassroot” here if you meant that Mamdani is a proletariat, and not the authorized politician democratically elected to govern people.
your movement
You keep calling our class struggle a movement, and not our political will. Why do you believe in mob rule as a
minority of Americans who are politically sentient and consider themselves Leftists.
?
who are fully politically apathetic, as enemies.
In Nazi America, and in Germany, they were both the same apathetic Nazis letting Nazis lynch them then, and here now. Why can't you see
The average American has far more favorable view of [class treachery] than I do.
As the enemies, and not be a solidifying intersecting leftist saying “Fuck🖕 class treachery! 🖕 Fuck Democrats🖕!”
You need a movement to create real change, you need people for a movement.
So which movement do you support, class treachery, or demolishing directly injustice?
I'm not gonna read this entire gobbledygook and just say Republicans control all 3 branches since trump took office.
Then you have something in common with Republicans.
Waltersf does nothing but spread bullshit lol, he just called me an ableist for calling third party voters idiots. He's just trying to stop democrat turnout. Hope they're paying him well
Like the other comment said, you're full of shit. This is either a bot or a paid foreign troll farm.
Reader, be wary of instances where they screech "both sides" while offering no other solution and have this weird obsession with labeling Democrats as "not real leftists".
If that doesn't work they'll call you a keyboard warrior... As if they type these things out with their mind... We all know it's just disingenuous and is only meant to keep democrat turnout low because billionaires are paying for these bots
I did 8 pushups on ur disinfo. Now ⏳ for some 🍵. What's ur fav. 3rd party?
You sound like a cosplaying middle manager. Nobody is taking you seriously for very good reason. You're full of shit.
The both sides propaganda is now just straight up saying not to vote
Of course they offer no other remediation, solution or suggestion because they're only meant to discourage voting be used the billionaire class is afraid of a blue wave much bigger than 2020
Lemmy "leftists" are so funny xD
Keep fighting the revolution keyboard warrior!
I dont really care what americans want the meaning of "Leftist" to be.
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