A lawyer used ChatGPT to generate briefs that included completely made-up witnesses and testimony while representing a man accused of shooting his wife. When he was caught by the judges, the lawyer blamed it on his own “stupidity.”

“It's little comfort to know that my stupidity is what brings us together this afternoon,” New Mexico attorney Stephen D. Aarons said in a hearing last month before five judges. He “assumed” ChatGPT would generate a “bulletproof summary of proceedings.” Instead, ChatGPT generated false testimony from “wholly fabricated witnesses,” according to an order of direct contempt from the New Mexico Supreme Court. Aarons was representing a man who was found guilty of killing his wife earlier this year; Aarons said he hadn’t told his client directly that he was caught using ChatGPT on the case because he’s currently serving life in prison.

The false testimony included a nonexistent person named Danny Stanton saying he received threats, and another made-up person, Linda Stanton, saying her husband received threats. Other false testimony from more AI-generated people in Aarons’ brief included statements “regarding the shooter’s clothing and appearance,” according to the order.

Reuters reported on the case earlier this month. "I am remorseful but hopeful that the disciplinary board takes into account it was an honest mistake," Aarons told Reuters. "It is a lesson learned for all professionals who rely upon this powerful but sometimes unstable technology."

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[–] 7 points 1 month ago

Aarons’ reasoning for trusting ChatGPT, he said in the August hearing, was that he’d heard of doctors using AI for medical research. 

“So, Counsel, do you watch the news? Do you listen to the radio? Do you read anything about what's going on in the world?” one of the judges asked Aarons. “Because the problem with lawyers relying on AI hallucinations is an above-the-fold story every single day.”

…

“So, either you buried your head in the sand. And that's a choice to do that. An intentional choice to be uninformed,” the judge continued to Aarons. “Or, you took a gamble. And neither of those are consistent with the code of conduct. So I'm really struggling with your response, saying, ‘Well, I didn't understand. I didn't know about hallucinations.’ My 13-year-old nephew knows about hallucinations. My 75-year-old stepmother knows about hallucinations. So, either you made a decision not to be aware of what's happening in the world in using this tool appropriately, which is a willful choice. Or you decided to roll the dice.”

“So you didn't say, ‘I relied on ChatGPT, and it submitted lies to the court, and the court is mad at me, and now there's a hearing.’ I'm guessing you didn't tell your client’s family members that,” a judge asked Aarons.

“I didn't talk about ChatGPT. I just said there was a problem with a brief that I filed,” Aarons said.

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  • 50 comments in c/technology@lemmy.world view that post
    [–] 173 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (20 children)

    There needs to be a rule that anyone who does this should be immediately disbarred

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  • [–] 103 points 1 month ago (14 children)

    I mean. He should be imprisoned, no? Does perjury not apply to the lawyers too?

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  • [–] 78 points 1 month ago (10 children)

    As far as I'm aware perjury can only be committed by someone under oath. And lawyers are not placed under oath. But I agree, the penalty for this shit should be a lot harsher than it's been so far.

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  • [–] 29 points 1 month ago (7 children)

    I've been to court, and it never even occurred to me that the lawyers are not placed under oath. But they're the ones that do most of the talking during a case. I wonder that the reasoning for not being under oath is.

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  • [–] 35 points 1 month ago* (3 children)

    They are advocating/representing, not testifying. A defense attorney does not make statements of fact, they call witnesses and experts for that. They introduce reasonable doubt.

    They call witnesses and experts to present facts and other testomony which is why they are under oath.

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  • [–] -1 points 1 month ago

    They call witnesses and experts to present facts and other testomony which is why they are under oath.

    So, how can "fake witnesses" exist? Last I heard, witnesses were required to appear on the witness stand, take the oath, and present their evidence.

    The US Supreme Court has upheld the Confrontation Clause of the constitution in recent cases, too. The prosecuted have the right to face their accusers.

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  • [–] 14 points 1 month ago*

    It’s because you only need to take an oath if you’re testifying. And arguing isn’t testifying. Lawyers are already bound by ethics standards for things like lying. For instance, if a lawyer knows you killed someone, they can’t openly say you didn’t.

    They can argue that the evidence is lacking. They can argue that the prosecution hasn’t done enough to prove your guilt. They can find gaps in the prosecution’s case and start poking holes to provide reasonable doubt. But they can’t put a witness on the stand who they know is going to lie in your defense. And that includes themselves. Also, no lawyer would want to take the stand, because then the opposing lawyer would have a chance to cross-examine them directly while they’re under oath, and likely have them testify against their own client. It would be a very big can of worms.

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  • [–] 11 points 1 month ago

    What the lawyers say is not under oath unless they go to the witness stand and swear in. The main reason is that lawyers mainly are in the court to make opinionated arguments, not to give facts.

    Lawyers do have a "duty of candor" to the "tribunal" at all times, however. This is because they have taken an oath (different from the witness oath) to become "officers of the court". This means they cannot knowingly misstate facts or law to the court.

    But the maximum exposure on a duty of candor violation is court sanctions, like fines or adverse court outcomes, possibly contempt, and bar discipline, and so on. It's not the crime of perjury.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 month ago

    Lawyers are under oath, at least in my state. When they get sworn in by the Supreme Court they take an oath to essentially tell the truth in court and alert the court if they know of any lies (like if their client commits perjury). They just don’t have to be sworn in at every hearing.

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  • [–] 16 points 1 month ago

    There is a rule that covers fake citations, AI or not. But it's not immediate.

    What's happens is the court makes a disciplinary referral to the state bar association, which handles barring and disbarring. At minimum there's some kind of additional bar discipline hearing before adverse action.

    Each federal court, district or appellate, can also independently revoke admission to the bar of that individual court.

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  • [–] 67 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    Last I checked, submitting false testimony was a crime. If these lawyer stop getting slaps on the wrist, the slop legal work will stop.

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  • [–] 52 points 1 month ago (4 children)

    It seems whatever actions courts are taking, it's not enough if it keeps happening.

    Aarons was sanctioned $5,000

    How much do lawyers charge to defend a murder charge? I'm guessing a lot more than that.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago (3 children)

    This is before the Bar association does something to him.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    I did some digging, and it looks like the courts are the ones issuing all the fines. Couldn't find much in the way of disbarrments.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    Probably because State Bar actions are currently happening

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago*

    Oh, yeah, I guess that all takes time. Looking forward to some entertaining reading in the future. Judging from this case, defenses based on ignorance are already getting thoroughly savaged, so hopefully we can expect some consequences.

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  • [–] 37 points 1 month ago (13 children)

    “It's little comfort to know that my stupidity is what brings us together this afternoon,” New Mexico attorney Stephen D. Aarons said in a hearing last month before five judges. He “assumed” ChatGPT would generate a “bulletproof summary of proceedings.” Instead, ChatGPT generated false testimony from “wholly fabricated witnesses,” according to an order of direct contempt from the New Mexico Supreme Court.

    Aarons’ reasoning for trusting ChatGPT, he said in the August hearing, was that he’d heard of doctors using AI for medical research.

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  • [–] 10 points 1 month ago (6 children)

    I had to check the date of the article to make sure it was recent. How a lawyer hasn't heard of the several times other lawyers have had issues with ChatGPT I have no idea. There's no way this guy didn't perjure himself be feigning ignorance. I feel like the bar needs to send out a written notice requiring some kind of acknowledgment to all lawyers so they can no longer claim ignorance if this happens to them.

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  • [–] 15 points 1 month ago

    In a quote in the article, one of the judges even points this out to him rather harshly.

    “So, Counsel, do you watch the news? Do you listen to the radio? Do you read anything about what's going on in the world?” one of the judges asked Aarons. “Because the problem with lawyers relying on AI hallucinations is an above-the-fold story every single day.”

    ....

    “So, either you buried your head in the sand. And that's a choice to do that. An intentional choice to be uninformed,” the judge continued to Aarons. “Or, you took a gamble. And neither of those are consistent with the code of conduct. So I'm really struggling with your response, saying, ‘Well, I didn't understand. I didn't know about hallucinations.’ My 13-year-old nephew knows about hallucinations. My 75-year-old stepmother knows about hallucinations. So, either you made a decision not to be aware of what's happening in the world in using this tool appropriately, which is a willful choice. Or you decided to roll the dice.”

    The article also provides links to five other cases where lawyers used an LLM and filed AI hallucinations as fact. This bozo is clearly in the find out phase.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 month ago (3 children)

    You can claim ignorance for breaking the law?

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago

    In theory, no. In practice, yes. I think it's generally fine for people to be able to use discretion in a lot of cases. That discretion is not always evenly applied, but there are plenty of laws that the average person doesn't know and has no reason to even think about. I'd rather live in a world where the justice system is able to give people leniency and the benefit of the doubt than otherwise. If one of your brake lights is out it's possible you have no idea. Technically it's illegal to be driving. Most people would agree that it's a good thing that you can be given a warning or something instead of have to face the same penalty as a person knowingly driving with the same issue.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    Using AI for medical research probably doesn't mean using a publicly available chat bot.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago*

    AI is already being used for writing faux papers in journals, stem and medical ones. its just now they are getting caught. even using it for "medical scans" is highly suspect and likely wont see the light of day. a version of its being used in dental scans already by some.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago

    Aarons’ reasoning for trusting ChatGPT, he said in the August hearing, was that he’d heard of doctors using AI for medical research.

    I don't think the AI being used in medical research is ChatGPT (or any LLM for that matter), but if they are then that's concerning... He's still a dumbass though.

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  • [–] 15 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    According to the order, the judges found Aarons to be in direct contempt of court, referred him to the Disciplinary Board for further consideration, and barred from appearing before the court pending the outcome of the board’s investigation. They also threw him off the case in question and assigned a public defender to his former client.

    If they don't feel the consequences themselves, lawyers will just continue to use LLMs to do their research.

    This is another example why we need LLMs to be required to cite sources.

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  • Can't fix stupid.

    But I don't have to interact with it.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago

    In the past, I've advocated for people to not use AI. I think I've changed my mind just now.

    Everyone should be required to use AI - that way, we can see how stupid they are when they don't check it.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago

    Aarons said he hadn’t told his client directly that he was caught using ChatGPT on the case because he’s currently serving life in prison.

    He got called out on this by the judge, too.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (1 child)

    I use AI for some of the documents i create

    I also read and iterate on what it writes

    Don't trust the hallucination machine

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  • [–] 5 points 1 month ago

    I have seen far too many times that people send meeting minutes generated by AI which is wrong on one or several points. After that it is difficult to trust anything from that person.

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  • Think he saw this ai summary and got all excited like, look at all this evidence in support of reasonable doubt for my client's guilt! Guess the previous defense just ignored all this obviously helpful witness testimony for some reason...

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  • 5 comments in c/law_us@lemmy.sdf.org view that post
    [–] 6 points 1 month ago

    At least he was only using it for a low stakes case: the guy was found guilty of murder and is now in prison for life.

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  • [–] [S] 2 points 1 month ago* (3 children)

    Just wait till the judges also run AI for their end of it. The AI slop might get green lit / rubber stamps.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    Legal Eagle - Law Slop
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTi3IZDrZC4

    Judges already are. Some of them are putting out case law that's just as bad. Judges, cops, lawyers, anyone putting AI slop into the legal system need to be sanctioned, disbarred, or jailed. This is going to destroy an already weak legal system.

    I understand using LLMs or other machine learning tools to help summarize or write documents. It's just another way of making your work easier. But ultimately, the human using it is responsible for the output. If the human isn't at least making sure all of the facts are real, then they obviously don't know enough about the tools to use them properly, and that is malpractice.

    Lawyers obviously need to read journals and continuing education to keep up on changes in the law. How have they not heard about this type of thing before? It started day one with these LLMs.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    I think it's even dangerous and irresponsible even to use them as summarisation and document "assist" tools, especially where someone's life could literally be on the line. No matter how careful you think you are, these things do not understand anything and will inject hallucinations or incorrect interpretations into summaries, influencing the user's judgement in ways they can't predict. And because they present their output in a seemingly professional, neutral way, the user won't know when they're being misled.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago

    It really depends on how you use it.

    If you say "give me all the page numbers that use violent language" in a huge library of texts, then that'll likely get you some good information. You can also skim the document yourself before or after to see if anything else needs to be looked for.

    If you say "what does this stack of documents say?" that will likely get you bad information.

    There's also other types of Machine Learning that is used in document review for lawyers, some of them are trained to look for very specific items.

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  • 2 comments in c/technology@lemmy.zip view that post
    [–] 3 points 1 month ago

    Jesus fuck

    America is overworked into apathy

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago

    At least there were consequences.

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  • 1 comment in c/technology@piefed.social view that post
    [–] 2 points 1 month ago

    I cerainly hope he is removed from the bar for this. I'm shocked he wasn't held in contempt.

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