As a tall male I was confused for a sec.
post
The point is that the subset of men who sexually assault get let off the hook often (e.g. Brock Turner only serving 3 months). It's like saying "Not all Catholic priests are child molesters". Yes, that's true, but it misses the point. The ones who are don't get punished. (Or they get a slap on the wrist.)
Yes, the Catholic church has a problem with protecting molesters. Nobody feels the need to point out that it's not all priests because nobody claims it is. You can even say that even those who don't should do whatever they can to change it, including quitting. What I don't understand is the insistence on punchy, but obviously wrong phrases that always make the conversation more toxic.
What a shitshow of a comment section.
The facts:
- Most rapists are men
- Not all rapists are men
- Most men are not rapists
- Most women personally know another woman who was a victim
- Most men don't personally know a man who was a perpetrator
This leads to three things:
A. Many women feel unsafe around men, particularly those they do not know well. (Points 1 and 4)
B. Many men feel prejudiced in conversations on this topic (Points 2,3, and 5)
C. The discourse runs in circles between A and B, failing to change anyone's mind because either 1+4 or 2+3+5 more important depending on the speaker.
Lets check the math here.
Most men don’t personally know a man who was a perpetrator
According to the USA's statistics (I will use it here because it is quite high), it is about 5 rapists per 100 000 people.
A lot of offenders are multiple offenders. Comparing that to the reported rape occurrences and the actual estimations, assuming average lifespan of 75, if a man is 30 he needs to personally know ~60 men his age to statistically know a rapist, and about 28 men his age if he is 60.
I do not think therefore your sentence is true. I do believe that most men personally know a rapist, but hopefully they don't know about it.
Most women personally know another woman who was a victim
According to the USA's statistics (I will use it here because it is quite high), it is 37.5 per 100 000 people.
This is yearly data. Estimates are that in the USA only 1 in 4 performed rapes is reported. Assuming an average life of 80 years, and (from USA statistics that about 80% of victims are younger than 30), a 30 years old woman needs to know 6 women to statistically know a rape victim. And among 70 years old, just 5.
To add, it isn't just prejudice in conversations but social inclusion, workspace hostility, and community resource allocation biases. It is a prejudice when women prefer less men around, especially in public spaces and spaces meant to be shared. But some prejudices are more equal than others.
- Supporting women doesn't mean never supporting men.
Boys and men are often harmed by messaging around sexual assault that says over and over, all men are violent people who cause harm. Supporting the men caught in the crossfire between women's advocacy and sexually predatory men,can exist without undermining the effort for women. However, if your efforts to change or erase male behavior can't be accomplished without harming innocent men, then why should those men, or society, support that effort? How can they? You've decided some people can be sacrificed for the interests of women without their consent. That isn't advocacy, it's supremacy.
Your points are correct but I disagree with your conclusion. It's not deciding that some people will be sacrificed (also a bit extreme of a word choice for feeling put out by discussions of a demographic you belong to), it changing the proportion of people sacrificed in the hopes of reducing the number of people raped. The shift is away from teaching women that it's all on them. Their fault or their responsibility. Objecting when the balance changes says that it's not sacrifice you object to, but it being men. "The status quo is better than the cost of fixing it".
When you ask why men should support anti rape education if it makes them feel bad, the answer is supposed to be "because they understand rape is worse than the cognitive discomfort of discussing awful things people like them did".
Cause you are most likely to know them but not know they're perpetrators. Remember, you're most likely to get SA'd by someone you know vs someone you don't know. It could be a relative of yours. It could be a friend you least expected or most expected. But don't expect you would know who it was or would be.
Most women personally know another woman who was a victim Most men don’t personally know a man who was a perpetrator
Points 4 and 5 are contradictory. Assuming men and women are in equal proportions in the population and distribute normally, the only way this would be possible is if somehow all the men in a single neighbourhood commit all the rapes around the city. This doesn't stand up to common sense.
The real problem here is arguments of authority are presented without the possibility to disagree with them, even as they don't hold up on face value.
They aren't contradictory if a drastically small portion of men are doing a hell of a lot of sexual violence.
That said, point 5 should be "most men do not believe/know any men they know are rapists". That can take many forms, such as not knowing their work buddy's personal life, thinking serious offenses are less serious than they are, not seeing any warning signs, choosing not to see warning signs, not recognizing warning signs…
Most rapists seem to not be telling the guys that they're raping people (though I'm a chick so idk), they're keeping quiet, hiding it, reframing it, etc. And most men aren't shown/don't learn the signs that a guy is predatory, in something I think can be compared to how people raised with a narcissist in the household can sense it, while those who weren't may not be able to see through the charming mask.
Victims and perpetrators aren't 1-1. Sexual violence isn't distributed normally - minority of men commit a majority of the sexual assault.
Knowledge of that perpetrator is spread through the network of every woman they victimize, while it is limited to his own personal network of male non-victims.
This is before considering the fact that people are more likely to discuss being a victim than being a rapist. Even if each rapist had exactly 1 victim, it would still be more likely for women to know someone who was raped than for the male acquaintances of the perpetrator to know that they know a rapist. Doubly so given that many rapes are not officially reported, and many that are do not get prosecuted.
I have many uncles and male cousins. I don't think any of them are rapists, but the stats are pretty decent at least one is. All of my aunts have stories of perverse behavior by males, and one was kidnapped and raped repeatedly.
Distribution of male rapists also can't be assumed to be uniform. So clusters will create spaces where significantly fewer men know a male rapist, which will skew the median significantly.
You wouldn't know if any of your friends is a rapist. It's not like they would tell you.
Edit: Even in the case of these guys, my other comment still applies.
Most of them genuinely believe it, too. Everyone knows rape is evil, and everyone thinks that they're a good person, and since good people don't do evil things, they can't be rapists. They'll do all kinds of mental gymnastics to avoid critically examining whether any of the sex they've had was actually rape. She was asking for it, he couldn't help himself, she didn't say no, she was into it at first, she was leading him on, she just wants attention. These guys will come up with any excuse that keeps them the "good guys."
They knew that their friends were having sex with a woman, and failed to critically examine whether that sex was in fact rape because the idea that their friends might be rapists never crossed their mind. We all need to be aware that we are capable of doing evil things.
it's a lot of men
Naw, can't be. Lemme look it up...
29.3% of college men 😱😱😱
This report focused exclusively on college men in the United States and Canada.
also
Though we found an overall prevalence rate of approximately 29%, this is strongly associated with measurement strategy and may be an over- or underestimate.
however
Our results provide strong evidence of the widespread nature of sexual violence perpetration on college campuses and the need for greater resources to understand and prevent this behavior that undermines the health and safety of so many people.
This is what happens when the legal system is based on how much money you have.
My bet is the ones that say not all men are that man.
No, they're the guys that look the other way because "bro-code". Enabling is as bad as abusing.
I'm not a man, but I don't feel like we should be guilting boys by insulting their entire gender, something they didn't choose to be, and for something they likely have no desire to do themselves. That's how you push people into the manosphere, looksmaxxing, alpha males and stuff, because they feel like they're not accepted by progressive people because of their gender.
I am convinced that if #metoo was 10 years early, before I developed self esteem, I would have FOR SURE fallen into the manosphere. I just wanted to be accepted while popular culture regularly reminded me every day that the people I care about (mostly women, I had no male role models) think I'm evil.
I knew I had problems but I wasn't evil so who would I have listened to? Probably the group saying I'm good and cool and strong just for existing. The group promising to help me fix my self esteem.
I get it now, I know they're not saying ALL men. But the problem I still have with the popularity of that hyperbole is that it alienates the most vulnerable young men.
I don't have a solution to suggest. Just wanted to share my experience to support your stance.
we should be guilting boys by insulting their entire gender,
The post literally points out at that it isn't all men, but it's a lot.
If your slogan is that all men are the problem then it will be interpreted that all men are the target.
I saw another post that said "AlwaysAMan" and I think that gets the message across a lot better.
What is everyone reading? The post literally points out that it is not all men.
“All men” isn’t a slogan here. “A lot of men” is the truth. Most rapists are men.
The post doesn't exist without the context surrounding the discussion. Quite a lot of the discussion I've heard is people bending over backwards to say they know it isn't all men but that it's okay to say all men are the problem.
but that it’s okay to say all men are the problem.
Where?
The majority of rapists are men. That's the truth. We need to be able to acknowledge that if we're going to get anywhere near reducing rape and sexual assault.
This whole thing is a shitstorm on tiktok. My wife has been perpetually pissed off about it so I've heard plenty of people making these claims, men and women, from there.
No one is refuting of disagreeing that point, just that there are better ways of making that statement then shutting down innocent people defending themselves. Prejudice and stereotyping is wrong, doesn't matter who it's targeted at.
The post literally points out that it isn't all men.
People are pissed off that yet another young woman has been raped and nothing was fucking done about it. It's not just a TikTok trend.
This has been happening since before I was even born. When is it going to get better? When are we going to stop pausing the conversation in order to reassure men that it isn't all of you and we're so sorry your feelings are hurt and maybe if we're raped a little quieter you can feel not as guilty about holding your fellow men accountable for their misogyny.
Stop crying about women being angry about how we're treated and start holding other men accountable.
You just type the same thing repeatedly without even considering what I wrote. Clearly you aren't here for discussion, just reaction. Not sure why you would be so focused on "did you read the post?" when you are so focused on not doing any reading yourself when people respond.
You asked where I heard people repeatedly state "all men", I answered. The Cornell situation is a hot topic right now and is getting a lot of engagement, so this is, in fact, a trending topic. Especially on tiktok. I can't change that you don't like that answer.
I get the topic is upsetting but you're fighting the wrong people. I don't know what the strategy of insulting the people already on your side is called, but I wouldn't say it's the right one.
When will it get better? When people stop taking the tribalistic approach and making blanket statements to create reactionaries. When people can identify the problem and solve the problem together without lashing out randomly and hoping that it gets fence sitters to somehow agree with them. You want the doofus men who don't see the problem to help? Stop insulting them. You can grandstand forever about how they should make the right choice regardless, and I agree, but that's not how humans work and we both know it.
For the record, I don't knowingly associate with anyone that is misogynistic and I always point out when someone I know says something that is sexist. Same as I would do when someone says something misandrist or racist. All prejudice is wrong. I also absolutely agree we absolutely need to hold people accountable for committing crimes. No one should be exempt from punishment for harming others because of gender, class, or race.
I clearly meant it isn't a TikTok trend the way that the man vs bear debate was or in the way a new dance catches on. This extends beyond TikTok. This is a huge conversation that many people in many different areas are having because it keeps happening over and over again with no sign of slowing down.
If they can't handle the "don't rape women" message, I don't think anything can help them stay away from those incel-adjacent spaces.
"Society assumes you're a rapist because you're a man" is the message I think the parent comment is arguing against.
Isn't that the conservative framing though? Rarely I see that point coming from "progressives".
This seems like an odd thing to say. Like it doesn't matter if it's true or not, just which "team" is saying it.
I'm personally at 0% risk of slipping into the manosphere, but can you see how this sort of talk would push somebody more vulnerable into it? All I've said is that men are treated differently because they're suspected of being rapists and according to this thread I'm a) a conservative (nope) and b) part of the problem (i.e. I'm a rapist?). I'd never usually say anything because I know this is the way discussions always go, but I guess I was feeling ambitious today.
I just think it's fair to be upset about being treated differently because of the way you were born. You can't immediately start pigeonholing people if they show the slightest annoyance at being treated like a rapist.
Framed this as a question because YMMV. I've seen this take in manosphere-adjacent spaces as a response to whatever allegations are in the news. "Oh, now all men are rapists, huh?" or something like that. Without addressing the allegation itself, of course. It's like they are creating this monster that just loves ruining men's lives by wrongly accusing them of rape. It happens, yeah, but it's not the point, the point is to radicalize men into thinking that women are not equal to men.
I've met people (usually having traumatic experiences) who really think that "all men" are whatever. But this is an outlier in my book. In social media this point can be exaggerated (plus, "controversial opinion = engagement" plague) so I guess it can influence some people's opinions and views. But I still think the majority of people are not as radical.
Whining about being part of the same group that most rapists belong to when the overarching conversation is about how we prevent horrific crimes like gang rape is a choice a lot of men are making in here.
I don't think that's fair to say at all. The image you posted is specifically about #notallmen.
It also says of course it's not all men, that's not the point. The point is, it's a lot of men....
You tell me. What group of people has the most rapists?
It's not all men. But to ignore that most rapists are men is to be willfully ignorant and changing the conversation from 'how do we prevent' to 'soothe the men who aren't rapists because they feel bad that other men are rapists'.
Nothing you said is wrong there, I'm just saying it sucks on our end too. It sucks that women would rather walk past a bear than me, purely because of the way I was born. Sucks that if I mention being upset about it I get told that "I'm the reason she picked the bear". So much vitriol. I can handle it but I know lots of men can't and end up in Andrew Tate's lap. This entire thread is a perfect example. It's not helping.
And I know you're probably going to reply and say that women have it worse because they get raped, and you're right, but it doesn't make me feel any better the next time a woman gives me a wide berth in the park for no other reason than my gender.
I can handle it but I know lots of men can’t and end up in Andrew Tate’s lap. This entire thread is a perfect example. It’s not helping.
So you're saying it's your "ability to handle it" that is preventing you from falling into Andrew Tate's lap. That you're a bad year of not being able to handle it away from becoming manosphere material yourself.
Why is it that you feel men need to be treated with silk gloves or be unable to help themselves from becoming fascist while women can be treated like shit 23/6 without doing the same? Why is your answer to that to treat men's violence as a given and ask women to please calm down to avoid upsetting him? Why do you back your sadness at being judged for your gender with a promise of violence if that continues?
I understand being upset that people would pick the bear; I myself would pick the man. But, based solely on this conversation, I would pick a bear over you.
Yes, patriarchy sucks for men. Take it up with the patriarchy, not its victims. We're just out here trying to minimize our chances of getting raped.
I’m just saying it sucks on our end too
You know what sucks? Being held down and forcibly raped against one's will. And then your rapist not seeing any time in court or jail and allowed to attend the same university where you are trying to get your own education without being fucking traumatized. And yeah this is a predictable response because yeah, I get it sucks when someone is wary of you, but you can't empathize with that at all? That being raped is so much worse than someone giving you space on the sidewalk because they don't know you?
I can handle it but I know lots of men can’t and end up in Andrew Tate’s lap.
There's a lot of this in this thread - blaming women for being scared of being raped for pushing men into being even more misogynistic and hateful towards women.
When are men going to accept some fucking responsibility here?
And I know you’re probably going to reply and say that women have it worse because they get raped, and you’re right, but it doesn’t make me feel any better the next time a woman gives me a wide berth in the park for no other reason than my gender.
If you aren't a rapist, then why are you so offended when women who don't know you give you a wide berth? They aren't doing it to attack you. They're doing it to protect themselves.
Personally I would not be offended, but I would probably think I smell, start trying to sniff my armpits without being seen, then blush really hard when I think someone saw me and start sweating profusely. After that I would probably keep my arms glued to my side making me sweat more. And then leave to fucking change
I see it coming from many many progressives and often very agitated women (not saying they shouldn't be agitated) who seem to be lashing out at a generalization of those who have hurt them.
Most of them genuinely believe it, too. Everyone knows rape is evil, and everyone thinks that they're a good person, and since good people don't do evil things, they can't be rapists. They'll do all kinds if mental gymnastics to avoid critically examining whether any of the sex they've had was actually rape. She was asking for it, he couldn't help himself, she didn't say no, she was into it at first, she was leading him on, she just wants attention. These guys will come up with any excuse that keeps them the "good guys."
Unfortunately too many fathers are trying to recreate themselves.
Maybe they're too busy dealing with the constant assault on their identity by people telling them who they need to be without regard to who they actually are.
Fathers have a responsibility to not pass down their rapist tendencies to their children regardless of the weights of the world that we all have to deal with one way or another.
"Do it even if you can't, or we'll hurt you!" And we wonder why male spaces are becoming so aggressive....
"or we'll hurt you!" Where did you get this?
Asking for jail time for rapists isn't a wild idea.
From the harm your extremist views cause. Demanding ppl do things beyond their capabilities is harm.
It's always interesting to be a woman lurking in these sort of niche, male-dominated spaces. By interesting, I mean rage-inducing. Thanks for another great post, Velma.
Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all teach that women are inferior possessions of men. That's the "faith" of about 70% of people in USA.
Do they all believe that women are inferior? No, many do not. But, it's one more excuse to be an asshole.
(all of these religions are tax free, with benefits far and above any non-profit. Each of these religions are unfathomably wealthy and have been acquiring wealth at sword point for centuries, aren't they rich enough yet?)
Cool, but Simon Pegg is British though
Great Britain is still about 50% Christian, so it checks out (and 7% Muslim).
That's a majority of the population being raised in faiths that say that women are inherently inferior.
We're secular mate, only freaks and weirdos are religious here, majority are just "I'm X faith cause my mum is" and don't care about it
It doesn't matter what you think. They have a census and everything, almost 50% claim to be Christian, I'll believe their claims about their faith over your claim that is based on the 50 people you know.
I bet they know better than you about themselves.
Besides, Britain or USA, the point remains identical. Christian history remains real, and Christian influence continues to permeate.
Lastly... Cornell is in USA, so just admit defeat and sulk away. I was being kind to your point for your sake, friend.
top 66 comments