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[–] [M] 126 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (9 children)

The Negotiator is a trade magazine that "serves the residential property industry, specifically targeting estate and letting agents and their suppliers". The original source for this news is https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/property/buy-to-let/landlords-quit-rental-market-at-fastest-rate-in-a-decade, which is mirrored by https://www.aol.com/articles/landlords-quit-rental-market-fastest-094056000.html .

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  • [–] 106 points 1 month ago (6 children)

    In addition: The Telegraph is a rightwing rag who are automatically against anything Labour does. Apart from their right-wing bias, in the last few (3?) decades they've seen a decline in quality to the level of gutter journalism, so they have no credibility and their claims are basically meaningless.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 month ago (4 children)

    I must be used to American rightwing media because this Telegraph article seems downright neutral by comparison haha. Also, I have a question. It says that one of the things this bill does is abolish "fixed term tenancies". Does that mean, for example, that someone could just move in for a month and then move out?

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  • [–] 24 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    I'm not from the UK myself, I've just read some trash tier articles from The Telegraph in the past. Articles written with long words, but still obvious falsehoods. Which is a shame, because they didn't use to be like that. Wikipedia lists some of their controversies (see history since 2004): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Daily_Telegraph

    About the new law:
    “Fixed-term tenancies mean renters are obliged to pay rent regardless of whether a property is up-to-standard, and they reduce flexibility to move in response to changing circumstances, for example after relationship breakdown, to take up a new job or when buying a first home.

    Instead, all tenancies will be periodic, with tenants able to stay in their home until they decide to end the tenancy by giving 2 months’ notice. This will end the injustice of tenants being trapped paying rent for substandard properties and offer more flexibility to both parties to respond to changing circumstances.” https://www.stirlingackroyd.com/property-insights/fixed-term-tenancies/

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  • [–] 11 points 1 month ago

    Yeah, from that it sounds like the implication of a supply crunch pushed by the original article is highly misleading:

    The analysis suggested that rents were flat across the country, increasing by just £4 to an average of £1,475 a month compared to last year.

    However, stock across the rental sector still increased year-on-year, driven largely by new build-to-rent properties coming on to the market. Available properties increased by 1.3pc on average, reversing years of decline.

    The data showed 7pc growth in rental properties costing between £800 and £1,500 a month, while the number of more expensive rentals on the market declined.

    So even though existing properties are leaving the UK rental market, if you factor in new construction it's a net gain and affordable rentals have increased, facts it omitted entirely.

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  • [–] 52 points 1 month ago

    They've withdrawn their labour? 🫢

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  • [–] 42 points 1 month ago (1 child)
  • [–] 155 points 1 month ago (23 children)

    I'd be careful before crying victory. This most likely means those houses will be bought by PE, not individual buyers. The end result will be higher prices still.

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  • [–] 57 points 1 month ago (7 children)

    In a lot of European countries, small private landlords are relatively rare and apartments are owned and let out by corporations that own (and in many cases build) entire developments, like Deutsche Wohnung in Berlin. Given that continental Europe typically has a more stringent regulatory environment than the Anglo-American world, this does not end up with the sort of predatory monopolies one sees in the US where private equity have cornered regional markets, and the landlord companies have support desks and maintenance contractors that can be more responsive and professional than your typical small landlord.

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  • [–] 13 points 1 month ago (6 children)
  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago* (5 children)

    I wish the US had something like Art. 15 of the German Constitution. As for the UK, we are lucky in this regard with the flexibility our lack of rigid constitution offers

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (4 children)

    not a constitution until the people voted on it

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago (3 children)
  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    i didn't say that but the german grundgesetzt specifies it's valid until the german population votes on a constitution

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  • [–] 13 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    They should be forced to give their tenants an offer to form a union and purchase the property before they're allowed to sell it to someone else.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago (4 children)

    Why would PE buy them if not to rent & be subject to the same renter's bill of rights? Holding a vacant house isn't a good 😊 investment, they have upkeep costs, are subject to property taxes, and depreciate faster when unoccupied.

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  • [–] 20 points 1 month ago (3 children)

    Holding a vacant house isn’t a good investment

    This is in many cases demonstrably false. PE is holding on to vacant properties all over the US, and sometimes don't mind holding them for years unoccupied, waiting for a redevelopment opportunity

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  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago

    As well as holding onto housing stock to maintain a local monopoly.

    It isn't as big a deal when you know any potential renter will be renting from you regardless of it is this unit or that unit. They are still forced to be your customer and you don't have to compete with lower prices from another landlord.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    Fair enough, it does happen. Relevant background: https://nationalmortgageprofessional.com/news/investors-hold-most-empty-houses

    The states with the highest vacancy rates in investor-owned properties were:

    Indiana (7.2%); 
    Illinois (6.1%); 
    Oklahoma (5.9%); 
    Alabama (5.9%); and 
    Ohio (5.8%). 
    

    States with the lowest vacancy rates were:

    New Hampshire (0.9%); 
    Vermont (1%); 
    Idaho (1.2%); 
    Utah (1.5%); and 
    North Dakota (1.5%).
    

    I'd argue my sentiment remains, investors for the most part rent out property, they don't typically hold it vacant. When they do it's more likely vacancies are transitory (trying to find a renter) than long term and intentionally kept vacant.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago (4 children)

    Why? This will increase supply of housing available to buy and reduce the supply available to rent. So house prices will go down slightly, and rents will go up slightly.

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  • [–] 11 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    Because there isn’t a free market in housing anymore, they’ve all been caught colluding to keep pricing up even when there’s a huge glut of available units/houses in an area. They have been caught using apps to do it, and when faced with threats to stop that practice were found to use traditional means to collude. The free market is a myth in 2026, stop believing in fairy tales. Ayn Rand was a charlatan and capital isn’t going to ever be allowed to work for the poors.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 month ago

    I think you're thinking of a case in the USA that colluded on rental prices? I don't know of any evidence that there is collusion on house prices in the UK. People separately talk about investment companies buying up housing in the US as if that will have much impact on prices, but the proportion of housing under discussion is miniscule and unlikely to have any effect on prices - at least, outside of limited areas.

    I'm guessing at what you're referring to here so feel free to get specific. But cases in the USA are not that relevant to the UK, where the government is far more willing to enforce free market conditions than the "free market" idiotlogues in America who think that you can have a free market without regulation.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    Oh, so it only hurts the poorest and benefits those who can already afford to buy? How uplifting.

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  • [–] 17 points 1 month ago

    The Renters Rights Act overall benefits renters by making sure they can do such shocking things as keep a pet and make requests of the landlord without being evicted in revenge. This imposes a restriction on landlords, which amounts to a "cost" (in the sense of cost/benefit, not necessarily monetary) which means it was inevitable some would sell up. That part - landlords selling - does hurt the poorest, at least in the short term.

    However, the effect will be small in the long run: because houses for sale will increase a bit in supply, those prices will come down, enabling more people to exit the rental market. That will bring down prices at the top of the rental market, and eventually a portion of the decrease in house prices will feed through to a mitigation (not a reversal) of the increase in rents at the bottom of the rental sector as well. So a small effect to begin with (because it's not like 50% of landlords will sell up without being replaced) and mitigated because while there's no perfect exchange between the rental and owner-occupied sectors, there is some exchange.

    It's therefore a small price to pay for basic standards of decency for renters.

    The true mitigation will come from building more social and affordable housing. The government has committed to do this but has so far abjectly failed, like many governments before them.

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  • [–] 40 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    Landlords can't quit, it isn't a job.

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  • [–] 69 points 1 month ago (35 children)

    How does a landlord quit?

    They own the property, don't they?

    I imagine they're either selling their properties to corporations or hiring someone to manage the rentals for them.

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  • [–] 41 points 1 month ago (5 children)
  • [–] 17 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    I wish quitting meant a six figure windfall in my profession....

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  • [–] 0 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    If you're quitting because of this, it probably means you have a buy-to-let mortgage, quite possibly on a long term/interest only. You might therefore not get that much back, and what you do get back is essentially a liquidation of your savings asset.

    But I guess what you're getting at seen another way is that it's nice when your savings can pay enough for you to retire.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago

    If you had a fixed interest only mortgage from several years ago that is now expiring you are also about to get fucked by the increased interest rates. Not as bad as they were a few years ago but could still be a lot worse than a decade ago.

    No need to feel any sympathy for them, they are still making a shitload of money for little to no actual work from the whole thing.

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  • [–] 22 points 1 month ago (4 children)

    You overlooked the most important outcome: landlords selling property to individuals who will live there.

    This is a good thing because it reduces property prices, moves the market away from rentier capitalism towards people owning their own homes, and reduces economic inequality and insecurity.

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  • [–] 14 points 1 month ago (3 children)

    They're going to get sold to corporations who rent out even higher with no value add

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  • [–] 0 points 1 month ago (2 children)
  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    the source is the general trend in housing industry over the last 20-30 years, hedge funds and private equity trying to monopolize housing.

    usually turning them into vacation rentals (airbnb) or luxury rentals (tech bro homes).

    it's happening in every rich country (g8, etc), and probably poor countries soon, if not already.

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  • [–] 11 points 1 month ago (23 children)

    Yeah I would imagine this would lead to slightly reduced property prices and increased rent prices as the market adjusts.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (22 children)

    They were already renting, and when someone sells that pushes the property value down.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago (21 children)

    Right, but if landlords are exiting the market that probably means they are selling to someone who wants to live there, meaning rental properties are going off the market. Which is good for first time homebuyers but bad for renters. Either that or this is just landlords consolidating which which wont make much of a difference either way.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago* (13 children)

    When someone decides to sell a good because market conditions have changed, the price of the good goes down.

    Rental prices are proportional to overall housing prices. In general, more homeowners is correlated with lower rents. Renters are also removed from the market.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (12 children)

    When someone decides to sell a good because market conditions have changed, the price of the good goes down

    Yes i agree with that part

    Rental prices are proportional to overall housing prices. In general, more homeowners is correlated with lower rents. Renters are also removed from the market.

    That is correlation without causation. When there isn't enough housing, rent and property prices will both be high. However, if properties get taken off the rental market and are put up for sale instead, with no changes to population or overall housing supply, that is going to drive up rental prices. There will be fewer people renting, by necessity, but the people who want or need to rent will not change by as much, creating an imbalance between supply and demand that will drive up rental prices.

    Not to mention another thing we haven't touched on which is why landlords are leaving in the first place. Those who remain in the now-less-profitable environment may try to raise rent to compensate.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (11 children)

    There will be fewer people renting, by necessity, but the people who want or need to rent will not change by as much, creating an imbalance between supply and demand that will drive up rental prices.

    Why would demand not change by as much as supply, if both a buyer and a seller have been removed from the rental market? It's like landlords being forced to sell to tenants at a reduced price.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (10 children)

    Because having your rental unit taken away from you does not remove you from the rental market. You might consider leaving the rental market and buying property if housing prices collapse, but outside of that most people are going to have to look around for a new rental unit in a now tighter market.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (9 children)

    It does remove another renter, though. The market would only be tighter if they reduced supply by more than demand.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (8 children)

    How does being evicted remove a renter from the rental market?

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (7 children)

    The new homeowner is the renter removed from the market, not the previous renter.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (6 children)

    That's a big assumption that the new homeowner was a previous renter and not just someone cohabiting or buying an additional home.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (5 children)

    Not when we're looking at large groups of people - there's no reason to think the average number of occupants per home would change.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (4 children)

    I didnt mention anything about the average number of occupants per home. What i did say was that, if 100 homes go from being rented to being sold, not all 100 homes will go to previous renters, for the reasons I mentioned above. Doesn't that make sense?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (3 children)

    If the average number of occupants isn't changing, then cohabitation and second houses are irrelevant to this discussion.

    To whom is the apartment being sold?

    • If it's another landlord, then supply and demand haven't changed.
    • If it's anyone's former tenant, then both supply and demand are reduced by 1 on average, so rentals don't get more expensive.

    Perhaps you can find some statistics to back up your general point? If you're right, then we should see the opposite correlation - higher homeownership with higher rents.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    The average number of occupants doesn't change because everyone will still be living somewhere (excluding homelessness but we can ignore that). However, that does not mean cohabitation and second houses are irrelevant.

    • Some people who were previously cohabiting (not renting) will buy homes
    • Some people will buy second (or third, etc) houses.

    Both of these scenarios are excluded from your example above. As a consequence of them, some renters will have to start cohabiting (or become homeless). The fact that there are more people who want to rent their (own) place then there are rental units will drive up rental prices.

    https://pubs.aeaweb.org/doi/pdfplus/10.1257/aer.20181289

    Here you go.

    Using a 1994 law change, we exploit quasi-experimental variation in the assignment of rent control in San Francisco to study its impacts on tenants and landlords. Leveraging new data tracking individuals’ migration, we find rent control limits renters’ mobility by 20 percent and lowers displacement from San Francisco. Landlords treated by rent control reduce rental housing supplies by 15 percent by selling to owner-occupants and redeveloping buildings. Thus, while rent control prevents displacement of incumbent renters in the short run, the lost rental housing supply likely drove up market rents in the long run, ultimately undermining the goals of the law.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago (6 children)

    The first time buyer was previously renting though, so the renter could go there. Total number of people and houses hasn't changed in this simplified example.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (5 children)

    Right but a lot of renters cannot or do not want to buy property. Thus, rental units leaving the market creates a supply demand imbalance in the rent market, driving up prices (and driving down property prices, for the inverse reason)

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago (4 children)

    Plenty of renters do want to buy and house prices coming down would allow that for some of them. If no one buys it and the landlord wants to sell, all they can do is lower the price until someone does buy it.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (3 children)

    Right. We are in agreement that this should cause some reduction in property prices.

    But not all renters are able to buy property. Here's an extreme example - lets say 99.9% of landlords are forced to sell their rental homes. There are now just 100 units left in all of London.

    There are 10000 students who need a temporary place to stay, and another 10000 people that have bad credit and cant get a mortgage. What will happen to rental prices?

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    Then who will buy those properties? If we have 100 houses for 100 groups of people, mixed renting and owning. Then 20 landlords sell. Who are they selling to if no one can afford it?

    They have to reduce the price until someone can.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    Yes, again, I agree with you that the landlords will have to reduce their prices because there will be a temporary housing glut. Although, they might just let them sit unused off the market until prices recover.

    But the houses will get sold. There's a housing shortage everywhere.

    Yes, in your scenario, assuming that all the houses must be sold and nobody is allowed to buy a second home (which would happen in the real world as the prices drop) and nobody becomes homeless (which would also happen), all those houses would go to previous renters. The remaining renters are those who are in the most financially weak situation - even as property prices drop and rental prices go up they still couldn't afford to buy before the market stabilized. In this market there is now going to be pressure driving down the prices of homes and driving up the price of rentals.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago

    Empty houses contribute more tax in some parts of the country where councils have been given permission to raise taxes on empty properties. IIRC it is up to 4x the normal rate.

    Similar things could easily be rolled out where its a problem. Especially given that we already have working examples in the UK. Though its more about holiday homes, the same applies.

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  • [–] 79 points 1 month ago (12 children)

    Oh NO! Won't ANYONE please think of the Landlords that Take your Money and do Nothing in RETURN?

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  • [+] -18 points 1 month ago (11 children)

    I mean... they give you a place to live in return...

    Renting / landlords by themselves aren't necessarily a bad thing, it's poor renters rights and particularly shitty landlords that are the problem.

    I say this as someone who got on the properly ladder just as much to get away from shit landlords as anything.

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  • [–] 20 points 1 month ago (6 children)

    Landlords are by definition a bad thing. Everyone needs a place to live. People who hoard the necessities of life and loan them back to you are cunts, and need to be regulated into oblivion.

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  • [–] 11 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    Everyone hates scalpers. That's why it baffles me when there are always legions of white knights rushing in to defend house scalpers. I automatically assume they are all house scalpers who are desperately trying to see themselves as good people.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    I agree with this, but I've always wondered what the solution is for people that do need short term housing. Like going to college or moving to a city on a temporary job. Neither is a situation where you want to buy a house.

    The obvious answer is the revolution happens and property ownership is ended, but I don't see that happening. So what's the solution? And don't say dorms for college students, those regularly charge 2-3x market rates for worse accommodations

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  • [–] 0 points 1 month ago*

    I think there are lots of fair solutions whereby people don't get to profit endlessly off people's fundamental needs for shelter.
    Do I think any of them are attainable without any kind of reform that landlords and their apologists would hyperbolise as a "revolution"?
    No, I do not.

    Pick your poison, but unfettered rentier capitalism is a cancer and it has to be stopped.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

    Your argument is the equivalent of "slave owners gave slaves housing, clothes and food. The problem isn't slavery, it's the lack of regulation and bad slave owners."

    A good slave owner was still a slave owner. A good landlord still takes money out of your pocket for something that should be your fundamental right.

    But hey, I'm willing to compromise. I'm okay with landlords owning the house they're renting, if they're not allowed to rent for profit. But somehow no landlord is okay with such an idea even though it's still a net positive for them.

    EDIT: correcting spelling errors due to autocorrect.

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  • [–] 25 points 1 month ago (5 children)
  • [–] 18 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    That article has so little information, that it is effectively a big trust-me-bro. It does not mention, what the new law contains or how this is connected to the law. They tell ums some numbers without proper context explanations. So, ok, over 500 rental properties get sold off per day. What does this number actually contain. If they are not available to rent anymore, what happens with them? And then the semingly rising numbers between this year, last year (looks only like a moderate rise to me) and 2020, which is during the pandemic. No mention about different effects on the numbers and the causal connections.

    Sorry, this is just a low effort article telling us nothing but what this property guy whats us to think.

    And to the people being happy about this news: If this would really happen, then it would just mean more consolidation of the market into bigger corporations, which would make the situation even worse. I'm not against renters protections. Though celebrating less rental properties without having a significant public housing rise would not help rentners.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 month ago

    It comes after Labour introduced the Renters’ Rights Act on May 1, which abolished section 21 “no fault” evictions and transformed all tenancies into rolling contracts.

    —https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/property/buy-to-let/landlords-quit-rental-market-at-fastest-rate-in-a-decade/

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago

    The article offers so little detail that I can only assume what country it's talking about. It mentions a parlement, references some publications that are in the UK and has a URL from the UK itself, so I assume that's where this is happening, but there isn't a single actual geographic reference anywhere on that page. It's probably a safe assumption on their part that their target audience will assume correctly, but it's not any extra effort to list a location along with the date and author.

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  • [–] 18 points 1 month ago
    [–] 13 points 1 month ago (1 child)
  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

    It's about time. Generally speaking the UK have some pretty robust consumer protection laws, mostly thanks to the EU, but the laws around renting were draconian, they might as well of not existed.

    To be clear I'm not really all that certain on why they would be quitting, you can still absolutely make money as a landlord under these rules you're just not allowed to run a Victorian era workhouse level operation. Maybe that's what all these landlords were doing.

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