all 49 comments

sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] 54 points 1 year ago (7 children)

There's 2 separate universes here.

Devs and tech companies care only for UX, convenience, and reduced friction to use any service. They would put their granny's home address and SSN in the headers if it made a page load 10ms faster. Their incentives are all short-sighted to hit the next goal to outcompete other devs/companies and ship their end of history killer app that will solve all problems - and that will still get bloated and enshittified within 18 months.

Then there's us, a subset of rational people educated about how much data gets transmitted, who are horrified by the general state of being online, and are hard to impress when it comes to more than just saying "privacy!" when promoting anything at all.

IMO, we have to DIY and cobble together so much of our own protection, we're closer to artists that live a strange life that few people understand, seems weird from the outside, but we love for the peace of mind. Which is not enough to be any appreciable segment of the market to move the needle on any product worth real money.

  • source
  • hideshow 7 child comments
  • [–] 24 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    They would put their granny's home address and SSN in the headers if it made a page load 10ms faster.

    Have they ever considered that pages would load faster if they didn't include 20MB of JavaScript?

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 4 child comments
  • [–] 22 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Just yesterday I was on a news website. I wanted to support it and the author of the piece so I opened a clean session of firefox. No extensions or blocking of any kind.

    The "initial" payload (i.e. after I lost patience approximately 30s after initial page load and decided to call a number) was 14.79MB transferred. But the traffic never stopped. In the network view you could see the browser continually running ad auctions and about every 15s the ads on the page would cycle. The combination of auctions and ads on my screen kept that tab fully occupied at 25-40% of my CPU. Firefox self-reported the tab as taking over 400MB of RAM.

    This was so egregious that I had to run one simple test. I set my DNS on my desktop to my PiHole and re-ran my experiment.

    Initial payload went from almost 14.79 -> 4.00MB (much of which was fonts and oversized images to preview other articles). And the page took 1/4 the RAM and almost no CPU anymore.

    Modern web is dogshit.

    This was the website in question. https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/welcomefest-dispatch-centrism-abundance/

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago

    Yes, but the manager with a shitty MBA doesn't care about overall company appearance of performance, as long as their department looks good on paper. And they figured that would be easier by using four different external libraries, and then let another department figure out the rest.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago*

    Yeah, this is so fucked up ! When you archive reddit pages, those are over 20 fucking MB for just a conversation ! That's fucking insane...

    I can reduce it to less than 500KB with alternative frontends, but still... This makes absolutely no sense and I'm scared to find out what they are hiding in between all those lines of code !

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 11 points 1 year ago

    IMO, we have to DIY and cobble together so much of our own protection, we’re closer to artists that live a strange life that few people understand, seems weird from the outside, but we love for the peace of mind.

    That's beautiful

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 38 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    100% agree. Browsers don't need to, and shouldn't be reporting all Javascript attributes that make us unique, especially things like canvas.

    You can test this out here, but nowadays its rare for any out of the box browser to be anonymous.

    https://www.amiunique.org/fingerprint

  • source
  • hideshow 6 child comments
  • [–] 25 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Agreed. Why the fuck is a browser allowed to know my battery status or connection strength?

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 3 child comments
  • [–] 10 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    The web app could switch to lower res images (etc) if your connection is weak. Or if your battery is low it might switch out YouTube embeds for clickable images instead.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    No need to report any sort of even remotely precise value then. Just report "low" or "high". Also it's bold of you to assume that just because I am plugged to the wall I want to be served 400 MB of exta javascript and MPEG4 instead of one CSS file and a simple PNG.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 36 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    This is why using a local web proxy is a good idea; it can standardize those responses (or randomize them) no matter what you’re actually using.

    Personally, I keep JavaScript disabled by default specifically because of this, and turn on those features per-site. So if a website has a script that requires the accelerometer for what it does, that script gets to use it. Other sites keep asking for it? I suppress the requests on that site and if it fails to operate (throws one of those ad blocker or “you have JS disabled errors), I just stop going to the site.

    I’ve found that with everything disabled by default, browsing the web is generally a pleasant experience… until it isn’t.

    This of course requires using a JS management extension. What I’d really like to see is a browser that defaults to everything disabled, and if a site requests something, have the browser ask for permission to turn on the feature for that particular script, showing the URL for the script and describing what the code does that needs the permission. This seems like an obvious use for locally run AI models.

  • source
  • hideshow 6 child comments
  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    This of course requires using a JS management extension.

    What's a good extension for this? What do you use?

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    This is why using a local web proxy is a good idea

    Do you have one you've used that I can look at for this?

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 30 points 1 year ago (9 children)
    • Your operating system
    • Your CPU architecture

    Agree. No reason they should have this.

    • Your JS interpreter's version and build ID

    I can see a reasonable argument for this being allowed. Feature detection should make this unnecessary, but it doesn't seem to be fully supported yet.

    • Plugins & Extensions

    This is clearly a break of the browser sandbox and should require explicit permission at the very least (if not be blocked outright...I'm curious what the legitimate uses for these would be).

    • Accelerometer and gyroscope & magnetic field sensor

    Should probably be tied to location permission, for the sake of a simple UX.

    • Proximity sensor

    Definitely potential legitimate reasons for this, but it shouldn't be by default.

    • Keyboard layout

    As someone who uses a non-QWERTY (and non-QWERTY-based) layout, this is one I have quite a stake in. The bottom line is that even without directly being able to obtain this, a site can very easily indirectly obtain it anyway, thanks to the difference between event.code and event.key. And that difference is important, because there are some cases where it's better to use one or the other. A browser-based game, for example, probably wants to use event.code so the user can move around based on where WASD would be on a QWERTY keyboard, even though as a Dvorak user, for me that would be <AOE. But keyboard shortcuts like J and K for "next"/"previous" item should usually use event.key.

    There could/should be a browser setting somewhere, or an extension, that can hide this from sites. But it is far too useful, relative to its fingerprinting value, to restrict for ordinary users.

    how sensors are used to fingerprint you, I think it has to do with manufacturing imperfections that skew their readings in unique ways

    It's also simple presence detection. "You have a proximity sensor" is a result not every browser will have, so it helps narrow down a specific browser.

  • source
  • hideshow 9 child comments
  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago* (6 children)

    Operating system and CPU architecture are useful for sites to serve the correct binaries when a user is downloading an application. I know you could just give them all the options, but the average idiot has no idea what the difference between ARM and x86 is, or whether they have a 64 bit system. Hell, I wouldn’t even trust some users to accurately tell me what operating system they’re using.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 6 child comments
  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago*

    This was the only one I could think of a good reason to track. I immediately thought of all the grandparents and tech illiterate people who'd probably implode if they had to pick .exe vs .deb vs .dmg/.app (I actually had to look up what MacOS uses...) vs etc. And don't even try to have them guess intel vs amd.

    Automatically guessing the operating system saves us tech people from having to figure out they downloaded a file for a completely different OS.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    Operating system and CPU architecture are useful for sites to serve the correct binaries when a user is downloading an application.

    Barely. You could trim down the data to incredibly low granularity ("OS: Windows", "CPU: Intel Desktop") and you'd still get the exact same binary as 99% of the people 99% of the time, anyway.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (3 children)

    Oh yes, that's a very good point, actually. That actually seems such a fundamental use case that you could almost justify it being available without a permission.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 3 child comments
  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    No. It should be made available with a permission, because not every site out there is going to offer you to download binaries. 1% of the web """requiring""" this does not justify 99% of the web being able to violate that privacy.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Reread the comment you replied to. Not one word of it was in there accidentally.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    Good catch. Still, doesn't make it true either: it's not such a "fundamental use case" that it would even require the capability. The browser already reports the usable information in the user agent (you rarely even in that 1% need more specificity than "Windows" on "Desktop Intel").

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Plugins and extensions could make sense if the site and plugin are designed to talk to each other. But that could be made safer by each extension being able to decide whether to announce itself (and the user being able to override that).

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago (4 children)
  • [+] [S] 9 points 1 year ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (3 children)
  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago

    It's generally okay to have uBlock on the Tor Browser as your only extension, as it's not uncommon (Mullvad Browser also has uBlock and it's based on Tor Browser). Although it might be a good idea to keep its settings untouched.

  • source
  • parent
  • load more comments (-1 replies)
    [–] 6 points 1 year ago*

    Most of those crying about this are likely still stuck on the easy stuff, trapped in WhatsApp, Discord and iOS. Try start there.

  • source
  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    That works for me, but how do the browser builders achieve that privacy AND retain at least reasonable useability for normal / majority users?

  • source
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] -1 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    Basically, most of the internet won't work right, if you don't allow the browsers to track you. I have had a very strict Firefox setting and kept having to create exception to every site I visited just get in.

    You can boycot the sites but in the end, you'll be missing out on everything really

  • source
  • hideshow 6 child comments
  • [–] 10 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    That's just about numbers. Most sites will adjust, if enough users are turning away to another site that are less intrusive.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 5 child comments
  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    I hope so - it doesn't seem to work with platforms like facebook, twitter, reddit. We have had massive exodus from those too, but they keep growing and making money. People don't value privacy, if it gets in the way of convenience, socializing and entertainment

    With some workplaces using Facebook messenger even, to plan shifts, you practically get forced to have accounts places where you wouldn't

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 4 child comments
  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    I don't disagree... but we must keep the pressure up. I know I've helped a little more than 10 people leave FB and Google (and most of Microsoft)... A couple of them have left Apple too... It's a slow, but steady movement. :-)

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    Maybe

    I believe that one should leave those platforms for personal reasons. Not as a statement to those companies.

    I left because I don't like being tracked or being forced to accept being tracked. I did not leave because I wanted them to stop tracking their users or to show them that i don't like them doing it.

    Imo these companies won't change the way they operate and even if they did, I wouldn't trust them to have done so. They will always find loopholes and workarounds to get to what and where they want.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    For me, leaving is a statement, and a personal reason. I don't see how it could not be both? I don't know anyone who trusts them. But shifting the powerbalance towards privacy and ethics, will never be a bad thing.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago*

    That a page knows technical details of my system and in which I live country (if I do not use a VPN), I give a fuck, why this only serves to correctly show the content, eventually in my language and allow the download of possible compatible apps.

    Fingerprints are a very broad issue and are not necessarily related to privacy, blocking or counterfeiting all is possible, but in many cases counterproductive, it must be done specifically only in those that involve private and personal data, everything else is to put a tin foil hat.

    To protect the privacy there are needed way more measures, avoiding trackers, Pixel tracking (Meta), keyloggers (Towerdata, Imgur, M$ US and some others), avoiding search engines which logs the activity (Google, Bing...), recognize dark pattern, using encrypted mailservices, best with disposable alias, harden the SO with Portmaster, Pi-ole or similar.......apart of Common sense-

    Browsers, which are not directly from Big Corporations which itself log user actividad (Chrome, EDGE, Opera...), are relative irrelevant in this game of user profiling, they are only depends on personal preferences and needs.

    Privacy is a huge issue, but too often misunderstood with wrong measures, PEBCAK

  • source