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[–] 38 points 2 months ago (47 children)

It is darkly hilarious russians can still enter the EU for tourism.

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  • [–] 7 points 2 months ago (46 children)

    Why? Is Russia at war with Europe? Are russian tourists responsible for the russian invasion of Ukraine?

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  • [–] 37 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (39 children)

    Is Russia at war with Europe?

    Explicitly, yes, and Europe is kicking russia's ass in it when the rightwing isn't sabotaging resistance to russia.

    Are russian tourists responsible for the russian invasion of Ukraine?

    Yes, at least partially.

    Russia is a nation of cowards too afraid to stand up for their freedom, which always leads to violence and war.

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  • [–] 7 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 child)

    So easy to stand up against the Russia government, they must be real cowards for not wanting to be locked away forever, right?

    I am also only an internet person, but i fully understand people not wanting to throw their life away. Even if they don't agree, if there is no organised movement you can hardly blame individuals. If you do that, we all in the west are at fault for what happens in palestine. Well..i guess we are, for all the governments supporting israel. So how can we condemn russian citizens for crimes of their leaders? (Citizens, not soldiers).

    Instead hate on the people responsible, the Putins, the Trumps and Musks in this world. Hating on civilians is only divide and "those up there" are the only ones profiting.

    Edit: to clarify, i do not condone the russian armies invasion and i wish they would fucking stop yesterday, but i don't blame civilians for this and applaud everyone of them who does risk their life fighting the government

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  • [–] 7 points 2 months ago (14 children)

    Explicitly, yes

    Ok. No point in arguing with someone that delusional.

    Russia is a nation of cowards too afraid to stand up for their freedom, which always leads to violence and war.

    .... and obviopsly racist.

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  • [–] 11 points 2 months ago (5 children)
  • [–] 4 points 2 months ago (4 children)

    It's culturallyeabout as European as Russia is. But before 2022, westerners usually didn't consider Ukraine as "European". That framing happened afterwards.

    Also, the original statement implied that Russia is supposedly at war with the EU.

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  • [–] 6 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (3 children)

    Oh come on, lets not be pedantic, do you honestly think russia isn't at war with the EU? Even if you define the terms and framing so it technically isn't we are talking about splitting hairs at this point in a way that is completely unproductive to a broader discussion.

    Insofar as russia is not at war with the EU it is because russia is incapable of taking on more than a single country or two at a time... not because russia's aims are inherently localized to whatever nation it is attacking currently.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    Believe me: As a citizen of the EU, I would fucking notice if the EU was at war with Russia.

    The biggest attack on German infrastructure (for example) that happened since 2022 was actually carried out by Ukrainians (i.e. the Nord Stream explosion).

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  • [–] 5 points 2 months ago* (7 children)

    No, the helplessness of russians is learned, russians are the same human species as me, the difference is I wasn't raised to have a learned helplessness about politics.

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  • [–] 6 points 2 months ago* (6 children)

    What is it? Are they "cowards" or "raised to have a learned helplessness"?

    Either way: You're spouting racist bullshit. The EU is not at war with Europe and russian civillians don't really have a say in the invasion.

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  • [–] 7 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 child)

    What is it? Are they “cowards” or “raised to have a learned helplessness”?

    Yes

    russian civillians don’t really have a say in the invasion.

    bullshit bullshit bullshit

    Dictatorships are nothing new, that never fully excuses a populace, it gives important and necessary context yes but it does not absolve responsibility.

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  • [–] 6 points 2 months ago (3 children)

    russian civillians don't really have a say in the invasion

    Who invades ukraine?

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    Do you think wars happen, because the soldiers like to murder?

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  • [+] 2 points 2 months ago (19 children)
  • [–] 4 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (17 children)

    quick question: is this a unique problem for russians no other nation has faced or does russian culture just enforce a unique character of learned helplessness in its citizens?

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  • [+] 4 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (16 children)
  • [–] 4 points 2 months ago* (15 children)

    no. russia isn’t the only country in the world that violently oppresses its population making it impossible to influence the government’s decisions.

    Which is precisely why you can't pull the "Average russians don't have a say in the matter, russia is a dictatorship!" card every time someone brings up the complicity of average russians in the Ukraine War.

    Also, they are going on fucking vacation, not seeking asylum, are you serious? Do you think your arguments actually sound logical and intelligent?

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  • [+] 3 points 2 months ago* (14 children)
  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago* (13 children)

    in fact, when it’s that easy, it’s so weird that there aren’t more russians flooding into the west. huh, strange!

    facepalm

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_emigration_during_the_Russo-Ukrainian_war_(2022%E2%80%93present)

    During the Russo-Ukrainian war (2022–present) since February 2022, more than 300,000 Russian citizens and residents are estimated to have left Russia by mid-March 2022, at least 500,000 by the end of August 2022,[not verified in body] and an additional 400,000[1] by early October, for a total of approximately 900,000. This number includes economic migrants, conscientious objectors, and some political refugees.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/russian-vladimir-putin-quietly-preparing-another-mobilization/

    More than 113,000 Russians left their country last week via the so-called Upper Lars checkpoint — a spike in movement that reflects growing fears that the Kremlin is poised to announce a new mobilization effort.

    In recent months, Russian authorities have adopted increasingly aggressive recruitment measures, ramped up data collection on reservists, and expanded the National Guard’s remit, all fueling talk of another call.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_wave_Russian_emigration

    The fifth wave of Russian emigration (also Putin's emigration, sometimes "Putin's exodus") is emigration from Russia during the rule of Vladimir Putin. Researchers count the fifth wave either from the 2000s, when the composition of emigrants changed qualitatively and educated, promising people began to leave Russia; or from the mass protests of the early 2010s, Putin's return to the presidency and the establishment of a repressive authoritarian regime. In 2022, after the invasion of Ukraine and mobilization Russia went through two peaks of emigration, which became the largest in the modern history of the country. As of 2020, according to the UN, in terms of the number of emigrants in absolute numbers, Russia ranks 3rd in the world (10.65 million people or 6.8% of the population) after India (17.79 million people or 1.3% of the population) and Mexico (11.07 million people or 7.9% of the population).[1]

    https://fsi.stanford.edu/publication/russian-emigration-patterns-during-russia-ukraine-war-interviews-wartime-emigres

    Since the start of the full-scale invasion of Ukraine on February 24, 2022, Russia has experienced its largest wave of emigration since 1917. While estimates on the number of Russians who have fled wartime Russia vary widely, most sources estimate the number to be anywhere between 500,000 and 1,000,000. The majority of wartime émigrés have fled to nearby destination countries including but not limited to Georgia, Kazakhstan, Turkey and Uzbekistan, while a smaller number have gone further, relocating to countries in the EU, Southeast Asia and Latin America. Broadly speaking, the émigrés are younger and more prosperous than the average Russian citizen, have higher levels of education, and are driven more so by political push factors than members of previous waves. Many of the recent émigrés were engaged in political activism against the regime before emigrating; some worked as journalists, NGO employees, academics and activists, while others were dissidents of the regime at large.

    https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/event/the-putin-exodus-the-new-russian-brain-drain-2/

    Human capital is fleeing Russia. Since President Vladimir Putin’s ascent to the presidency, between 1.6 and 2 million Russians – out of a total population of 145 million – have left for Western democracies. This emigration sped up with Putin’s return as president in 2012, followed by a weakening economy and growing repressions. It soon began to look like a politically driven brain drain, causing increasing concern among Russian and international observers.

    In this pioneering study, the Council’s Eurasia Center offers a comprehensive analysis of the Putin Exodus and its implications for Russia and the West. The study, which is authored by Ambassador John Herbst and Dr. Sergei Erofeev, examines the patterns and drivers of Russian emigration to the West since 2000 based on the findings from focused interviews and surveys with new Russian émigrés in four key cities in the United States and Europe.

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  • [+] 3 points 2 months ago* (12 children)
  • [–] 3 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (11 children)

    only 12,655 russians applied for asylum in 2025, out of 146 million russians

    Yes because the average russian is ultimately fine with the Ukrainian War until it directly affects them at which point it is usually too late for them, thus the average russian is complicit in the Ukrainian War. You have proved my point over and over again.

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  • [+] 1 point 2 months ago* (10 children)
  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago* (9 children)

    Shame on you for strawmanning me by conflating a critique of russia with a defense of Europe's immigration policies.

    Most people applying for asylum in Europe do not come from countries that have been rolling columns of tanks into a democratic nation on the cultural verge of Europe (literally, Ukraine desires to join the EU), to the point that many countries of Europe have provided large quantities of weapons and supplies to help resist the constant stream of russian tanks and infantry physically invading Ukraine and attempting to take territory.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (8 children)

    Most people applying for asylum in Europe do not come from countries that have been rolling columns of tanks ...

    So... what exactly is the supposed reason not to grant asylum to russian deserters, if they explicitly need to flee because they don't want to partake in the war?

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (3 children)

    Where did I base my argument on defending the immigration, human rights, asylum laws and systems of the EU?

    Stop putting words in my mouth.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (2 children)

    You insinuate that Russians don't deserve asylum.

    Probably because you're a racist against Russians.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago (3 children)

    Conscription is not considered grounds for granting asylum, not from any country. Israelis can't request asylum because they would be conscripted into the IDF either. Conscription is just the law of the land that applies to everyone in it, it doesn't target people specifically, regardless of any protected class like race, sexuality or political opinions.

    Asylum would require something like political persecution, e.g. standing up to Putin and becoming a target of the FSB; that would be grounds for asylum.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (2 children)

    Considering how many people in Russia who opposed the war ended up in prison: it's probably really easy to be politically persecuted in Russia.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (1 child)

    I see the same rhetoric about Russians as Americans, "too coward to stand up" to their government. And it's always from neckbeards that never have, and certainly never will stand up to their own govt. Have some sympathy and understanding for your fellow human, it's not like there ARENT movements in these countries going against what their evil governments are doing. When is the last time you stood up to ur Canadian government for taking indigenous lands and selling it out under them to corporations for profit? How their disproportionately jailing natives in Canada? How they are disproportionately victims of violent hate crimes? How despite being water rich they can ot guarantee natives access to drinkable water? That's just one topic, we can find some shitty shit just about any country has done so maybe worry about yours before shitting on everybody else. And before u open ur mouth to put somebody else down always ask yourself if your trying to make things better or put somebody else down, as that's more a reflection of your character than anything else.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

    Have some sympathy and understanding for your fellow human

    Don't tell me I have to have sympathy for a country attempting to conquer another and conducting genocide while doing it, I see all humans as humans but don't waste my time waxing lyrical about how I should empathize with the poor plight of the average russian.

    By the way I do hold people in the US accountable including myself, but the US has a culture of standing up to authority unlike russia where people are taught to believe they are politically helpless.

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  • [–] 5 points 2 months ago (3 children)

    Deluded Russian or Russia supporter spotted.

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  • [–] 4 points 2 months ago* (2 children)

    Sure. Not being a fan of Sippenhaft makes me a supporter or even worse: a Russian. /s

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  • [–] 3 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    Hybrid warfare, and it's at least partly those posing as tourists who are engaged in the action.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

    "Hybrid warfare" is a propaganda term used to escalate the population's fear of war, resulting in higher preparedness.

    Most "terrorist" attacks are quickly pinned on Russia without any proper proof. And everytime Russia is mentioned as an aggressor (without actually having a motive to attack/get info/...), it solidifys the population's image of Putin who wants to annex Europe.

    Sometimes the term "soviet union" is uttered. But anyone comparing Putin to anything socialist is a fool - be it liberal or tankie.

    The biggest (eco-terrorist) attack on Germany since 2022 was done by Ukrainians. Not Russians.

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  • [–] 12 points 2 months ago (3 children)

    Good. Why are they allowed into the EU anyway?

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  • [–] 4 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (2 children)

    To flee the terrorist dictatorship and give their workforce/money to the EU? People who are leaving the oppresive state deserve a chance for better life. Don't give an equal between the people and the state/government, please.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 months ago

    I've met these "Russian refugees" you speak of. They just don't want to fight the war, but they whole-heartedly support it. They come over completely brainwashed talking about how "the West is too LGBT and DEI", unable to see what that propaganda did to their country. If Pootin wasn't president there, they'd be praying to some other shitty God who tells them how the West is the enemy.

    Russians shouldn't get VISAs, they should be classified as refugees and put into refugee camps where they learn the local language and have to learn what democracy is.

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  • To flee the terrorist dictatorship and give their workforce/money to the EU?

    On a tourist visa ? I don't think so.

    You can't legally work on a tourist visa, and if you're only here for a holiday you're hardly fleeing the Putain dictatorship are you ? Just taking a pleasant break from it.

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  • [–] 8 points 2 months ago (5 children)

    While you're at it, at least stop visa-free travel for israelis and US americans. Seems like a much bigger long-term threat.

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  • [–] 7 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    They would never, because it's perfectly fine when their allies invade and genocide.

    They have to uphold the "western supremacy values" somehow.

    P.S. Putin is a war criminal and deserves horrible death. Calling out western hypocrisy doesn't mean I support an authoritarian parasite, feeding his own citizens to the meat grinder.

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  • [–] 4 points 2 months ago

    P.S. Putin is a war criminal and deserves horrible death. Calling out western hypocrisy doesn’t mean I support an authoritarian parasite, feeding his own citizens to the meat grinder.

    Fully agreed. In fact I protested putin's regime when I was living in russia and had to flee because of that when the war started.

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  • [–] 4 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    Israel? America? On a thread about Russia?

    My friend your brain is cooked. Either that or you're working for them.

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  • [–] 4 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

    The thread is less about Russia and more about EU immigration policy.

    Israel and US has been repeatedly shown to constantly spy on european elected officials and citizenry, and be a significant threat to child safety. Both are currently committing genocide of much greater proportions than what russia is doing in Ukraine.

    It doesn't make sense to allow them to travel visa-free, with virtually no checks except matching the passport to its holder at the border, while banning russians to enter even after quite rigorous checks of the Schengen visa application process.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago

    Germany to EU: We can’t stand it. We know they planned it

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  • 24 comments in c/world@lemmy.world view that post
    [–] 33 points 2 months ago (15 children)

    Wait, why are any tourist visas being granted to citizens of a country waging war on them?

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  • [–] 16 points 2 months ago

    If we're looking beyond the scope of potential spies and saboteurs, there are plenty of families, friends, and even just normal people who travel abroad. Being abroad opens them up to seeing things from a perspective outside the one that is controlled and even enforced within Russia.

    Furthermore, ordinary people's view of EU (and other countries outside Russia) is part of many pieces of this conflict's puzzle: Money leaving Russia, people seeing good things in EU in contrast to their own country, and Kremlin being less able to make statements like "this country is showing hostility" or "See? EU only cares about itself".

    And ultimately, we do not want to unnecessarily sour the international relations more than necessary, as it's required in a lot of ways for talks about resolutions both during and after the war. Kremlin might not care about this, given the things they do, but they're not looking very far ahead. If they did, they wouldn't wage war in the first place.

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  • [–] 6 points 2 months ago

    Germany has actually been on board with this for quite some time. The reason is simple: It's an easy way in and out of Russia with all pros and cons it has.

    It allows people to move out of Russia, but it also allows Russian spies to enter (more easily). It causes Russia to (hopefully) be similarly permissive with visas, allowing journalists and also western spies to enter their country.

    The problem only starts where Russia is much more aggressive in their actions than Europe, in other words actively exploiting the 'deal'.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    Because some countries in the EU rely on tourism for their finances and do not want to risk reducing that income, even if it concerns only a small number or Russians. Those countries have so far blocked proposals to stop granting visas.

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  • [–] -2 points 2 months ago (7 children)

    Because granting tourism visas is the default. What advantage would be gained by not giving them tourism visas?

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (6 children)

    Having fewer Russians traveling to your country. It's not like Putin makes them get work visas when they're trying to sabotage shit.

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  • [–] -1 points 2 months ago (5 children)

    Having fewer Russians traveling to your country.

    And?

    It's not like Putin makes them get work visas when they're trying to sabotage shit.

    Maybe he does, but in any case that's not what I'm asking the parent commenter. My question is: Why would denying tourism visas to enemy civilians be, by default, a bad idea? Because that's what they're implying.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (4 children)

    Who says they're all civilians? It's much easier for FSB or whomever to recruit Russians living in Russia as assets than foreigners, or Russians living abroad. Many of the Russians living abroad may support him but enjoy their lives too much to agree to endanger their comfy lives.

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  • [–] 0 points 2 months ago* (3 children)

    Who says they're all civilians?

    Innocent until proven guilty, you tell me how many are FSB agents and the evidence that makes you think so.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (2 children)

    It's wartime and they're people who aren't EU citizens, so they're not entitled to passage. Why should they be admitted?

    Many stories you can read here and there's likely more that we don't even know about. Yes, there are already people in Europe who are likely to be sympathetic to Russia and there's not much to do about those people since forcibly deporting them to Russia without just cause would be inhumane, but why should we allow in more people that quite likely support Putin? He has pretty high approval rates after all.

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  • [–] 0 points 2 months ago* (1 child)

    You haven't answered my question. Quite literally no part of what you said affects the overall argument* (sabotage operations are almost all done by locals and so are irrelevant unless you can prove Russian tourist involvement).

    *Just as a reminder, the original question was "what advantage would be gained by not giving them tourism visas?"

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago*

    Ah, yea never mind, I checked your history, you're a Putin and genocide sympathizer. I thought you just have no common sense, but you're obviously not asking these questions in good faith. Good bye.

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  • [–] 8 points 2 months ago

    Considering overall economic and political situation of Russia, someone from there who can just casually afford/allow themselves a vacation in Europe and then come back, is almost certainly a person one should not let in. 🌝

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  • [–] 6 points 2 months ago

    Jfc they attempted to bomb civilian airports. State sponsored terrorism. Do everything you spineless fucks.

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  • [–] 4 points 2 months ago

    EU is fumbling response to this war from day 1. Always responding in the most calculated, spineless way. After 4 years they still didn't issue any meaningful red lines. Just look at this list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_lines_in_the_Russo-Ukrainian_war

    NATO only announced two red lines with any consequences: "No murder and abduction of children" and "Not to interfere with civilian ships belonging to NATO countries in the Black Sea". Both crossed by 2023. That's it.

    For fuck sake. Announce that any terrorist attack on infrastructure inside EU will mean immediate cancellation of all tourist visas for Russian citizens. Let Putin cross it. Why it's so hard for them to agree on things like that? I mean, I know why. Most of them don't give a shit and the rest supports Putin.

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  • [–] 6 points 2 months ago

    No mention of the Maltese golden visa scheme, funny how that works.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 months ago

    Ban Russians until they give up on Ukraine.

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  • [–] 0 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)