... as hundreds of billions of dollars are flooding into artificial intelligence, there are serious concerns that an AI bubble could trigger another bailout with taxpayer money.

In the interview that follows, leading progressive economist Gerald Epstein, who initiated and directs the Game Changers project at the Political Economy Research Institute at the University of Massachusetts Amherst, talks about AI’s impact on finance and the bailout problem and how a transformative public finance strategy can revive democracy, promote equity and social justice, and build strong and sustainable communities.

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[–] 79 points 2 months ago* (14 children)

Yea but we already know that's what they're gonna do regardless of what anyone says.

Just like we already know things are eventually going to get bad enough that killing the epstien-billionare class becomes both moral and necessary.

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  • [–] 30 points 2 months ago (3 children)

    i would argue that it is already the moral choice. they are killing the planet

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  • [–] 14 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (2 children)

    How can we know either way without speaking freely about it? I think this is an important conversation we should all participate in. (Fully agree with you btw)

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  • [–] 5 points 2 months ago (7 children)

    Yea but we already know that’s what they’re gonna do

    We can change who "they" are though, and this is our best chance since FDR.

    It's not enough to have a progressive president, we need a progressive Congress behind them. But we absolutely can refuse to bail AI bris out and strip the rest of the oligarchs of their wealth.

    People acting like we can't just depresses turnout.

    Republicans won't, neoliberals won't, but if you act like those are the only two options...

    You're just fucking wrong

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  • [–] -1 points 2 months ago* (6 children)

    If you think that you can elect progressive Democrats to turn this all around...

    ... you're just fucking wrong.

    The Democrats have been for sale since the 1960s... it's pretty obvious.

    Do you know the Ds have pitched universal healthcare for over 30 years?

    For about as long as the Rs have pitched "smaller government." How many times will you let them fool you? Don't be a sucker.

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  • [–] 10 points 2 months ago (5 children)

    Buddy...

    If you don't like the candidate in the general, the time to do something was during the primary.

    If you think shitty incumbents can't be unseated and progressives can't become incumbents, you just haven't been paying attention.

    And I'd bet my house that you don't have an alternative, you just want people to disengage from the democratic process. Which is fucking stupid because if you vote, it doesn't mean you can't do anything else. And if you're doing anything else, why the fuck wouldn't you also take the time to vote?

    How do you legitimately not understand the answer is absolutely never "vote less"?

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (3 children)

    Libs really think they can vote themselves out of capitalism and the climate crisis, how sad is that?

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  • [+] -1 points 2 months ago (3 children)
  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    Being prone to conspiratorial thinking and at the same time being a victim of the US education system and lacking critical thinking skills is a pretty macabre combination.

    But sure, anyone who disagrees with you is a bot, or a paid shill!

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  • [–] -1 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    anyone who disagrees with you is a bot, or a paid shill!

    Im specifically talking about:

    Another .ml account that is just starting to get active before the midterm to attack Dems…

    It's a pattern, recognizable by everyone not on .ml or a handful of troll instances.

    Like, you're literally out here telling people not to vote:

    Libs really think they can vote themselves out of capitalism and the climate crisis, how sad is that?

    And you're surprised people don't like that?

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  • [–] 3 points 2 months ago

    Reading comprehension is also in a bad spot. That sentence is not telling anyone not to vote. It's saying that even if you vote for the lesser evil, the country is still falling apart.

    Look, if I was part of some sinister influence operation, why would I pick the instance that makes libs like you (the people I'd likely want to influence in that case) freak out as soon as they see it? You're not making any sense, not everything is about the US, the rest of the world is rejoicing at the great satan finally getting its comeuppance.

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  • [–] 58 points 2 months ago (9 children)

    There's no industry the US government won't bail out, because the US government is corporate sponsored.

    We bail out banks.

    We bail out farmers.

    We bail out military contractors.

    ... and on and on and on.

    Because they "donate" to bOtH pArTiEs, and they expect a return. They don't do this out of charity.

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  • [–] 7 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    Aha! the solution is for citizens to become industry. Then they can bail us out.

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  • [–] 4 points 2 months ago (4 children)

    Bailing is the agricultural process of cutting, drying, gathering, compressing and tying up of forage crops into compact, manageable bundles for easy storage and transport.

    Therefore, I am all for bailing the CEO's out of AI companies. We can all lend a hand in cutting them down, drying them, gathering them, tying them up and compressing them into manageable bundles for easy storage or... whatever... toss them into a volcano?

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  • [–] 38 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    Didn't the House denounce Socialism in ALL FORMS earlier this week? Therefore bailouts are no longer possible, right?

    Oh, I forgot the rules don't apply to rich people. Silly me.

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  • [–] 23 points 2 months ago* (1 child)

    They forced this nation to take massive risks for their personal benefit. These people should be in prison and their companies and assets seized.

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  • [–] 21 points 2 months ago (6 children)

    to be fair, we should not bail out ANY industry. if you fail at capitalism so bad you need a bailout- tough shit.

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  • [–] 6 points 2 months ago (4 children)

    I feel like that depends on the industry and context. For example if say most of a specific industry is based in one or two areas and gets devastated by a natural disaster then fine. But if it's just economic failure then they should be taken private with either the states or the feds getting controlling shares.

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  • [–] 5 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    state control is actually “public” or “nationalized” right? - not to be confused with “publicly traded” which is not the same as “the public runs the business” (as it would if a state ran it, being comprised of the public)

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago

    Yes though in this case I'm referring to the US political entities called states, IE California, Connecticut, Arkansas, Et Cetera. But yeah I do mean nationalized in effect, when I said take it private I mean the stocks get locked down and removed from the public stock exchange while leaving owned stocks somewhat unaffected. Mostly so things like employee stocks don't get effected, CEO or ex CEO stocks would be nullified.

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  • [–] 20 points 2 months ago (6 children)

    Uhh.... billionaires asking for bailouts is peak failed capitalism.

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  • [–] 14 points 2 months ago (4 children)

    First time through bailouts and economic crash?

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  • [–] 17 points 2 months ago

    That’s not how our system works.

    Socialism for the rich, bootstraps for the rest.

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  • [–] 10 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    No, the taxpayer should not have to pay bailouts. But they will, whether they want or not.

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  • [–] 9 points 2 months ago

    Socialism is TERRIBLE! That's why ONLY Rich people get to Partake in It!

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  • [–] 7 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    Too late. It's already baked in through the insurance industry reinsurance mechanisms.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago

    Yeah, read an article about it. They’re using life insurance providers to buy these private funds aka debt. When the AI bubble goes kaputt, that life insurance is backed up by states who are obligated by law to pay if it fails.

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  • [–] 7 points 2 months ago

    Too bad, they already figured out a way to make it happen.

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  • [–] 6 points 2 months ago

    Bwahaha. Taxpayers will definitely bail out this industry, especially if the crash happens during this administration. That will be true whether or not be force some level of public ownership to reap any rewards that might accrue.

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  • [–] 6 points 2 months ago*

    The worst part is that any bail out would only be enough funding for a few months with the rate they are burning money at compared to their CURRENT revenue.

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  • [–] 5 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    Bad news: we will be.

    Some people are looking forward to the crash because they think these oligarchs are going to have some kind of comeuppance. To that I say: lolololol

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  • [–] 5 points 2 months ago* (1 child)

    Short of a complete societal rejection of the global economic regime, there is no way for us to not be. The expensive deals have been inked. The money has been committed. Parties will be in debt to each other for hundreds of billions of dollars. It doesn't matter if there is a law against taxpayers footing the bill or not, that amount of economic pressure will burst into and flood the larger economy and it will harm us all. It's going to happen no matter what. We're not yet angry enough at the severe economic harm that is about to befoul all of us.

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  • [–] 4 points 2 months ago

    Yeah, I am rather amazed that it seems so fashionable to want the AI bubble to pop, as if we won't all be in the direct line of fire. It's like people that were wishing for the housing bubble to pop back in the mid-00s...the people at the top doing all this shit are not going to be the ones that suffer.

    I'd rather the AI bubble were to spin down and have a soft landing, but honestly, I have no idea if that is even remotely possible. It seems we cannot just have a stable economy; it's either tulip bulb mania or it's in freefall because the investor class is not making quite as much money as they think they are entitled to.

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  • [–] 4 points 2 months ago

    You can't get skynet without giving all the taxpayer money to skynet. You don't have to call it a bailout. Just give them all our money for tokens so they don't need a bailout.

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  • [–] 4 points 2 months ago

    they've already made some of these companies publicly traded or somewhat public by linking it with publicly traded companies so it could tap into the "most safe investment" aka index funds and now they're tapping it onto peoples taxes? smh

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  • [–] 6 points 2 months ago

    So, GPUs and chips are being collateralized to secure loans and finance underwriting. We’re so fucked.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 months ago

    It’s just the cost of doing business. They take your tax money and fund an ai data center buildout surveillance state. Just like China.

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  • [–] 5 points 2 months ago

    And it's not even really artificial intelligence. It's basically just very fast computing.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago

    we need to start letting companies crash amd burn when they fail. fuck the consequences to the greater economy and the enormous cost to the FDIC we need the corperations to learn that there are consequences.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago

    Those taxpayers will bail these executives out and they’ll shut up about it.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (8 children)

    Americans don’t care.

    They’ll roll over and do nothing.

    Watch.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago (7 children)
  • [–] 0 points 2 months ago (6 children)

    Yep. And everyone sat at home and left him on his own to burn.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (5 children)

    It's not all over yet. I'm still hoping beyond hope that he'll be slapped on the wrist and let go

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  • [–] -1 points 2 months ago (4 children)

    Jesus christ, you people are boned.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (3 children)

    I'm not blind to that eventually either.

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  • [–] -1 points 2 months ago (2 children)
  • [–] -1 points 2 months ago (8 children)

    You can't just not have a bailout. The AI companies have more debt than value, and most of their value is only valuable to other AI companies. If there's no bailout, the lenders don't get paid, and the lenders lose almost everything. The employees of the AI companies will lose their jobs. The companies that have been doing significant business with the AI companies will lose all that business. It's too late to completely avoid the recession and bailouts, and few people in charge are interested in doing anything that would reduce the impact. We're all paying for it, one way or the other.

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  • [–] 11 points 2 months ago (5 children)

    If we save the lenders, they don't learn their lesson about lending money to evil things that don't make any money.

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  • [–] 11 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    Besides I thought they were so wealthy because they took on all the risk right? If we pay one way or another anyway then we may as well let the fuckers go down in flames.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 months ago

    Like how the banks can "offer" you personal loans with 15%+ interest, even with a perfect credit score. Or like 7% for a mortgage.

    Their profits are larger than ever, but it's socialism or something if we were to expect them to have an emergency fund or something.

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  • [–] 8 points 2 months ago*

    If there's no bailout, the lenders don't get paid, and the lenders lose almost everything. The employees of the AI companies will lose their jobs. The companies that have been doing significant business with the AI companies will lose all that business.

    Too effing bad. Choices have consequences.

    It's too late to completely avoid the recession and bailouts

    If it's too late to avoid the economic fallout, we should at least avoid making the people responsible for creating this mess richer at the cost of taxpayer dollars. Maybe we'll all take a hit, but let the shortsighted fuckers eat their own debt.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 months ago

    The employees of the AI companies will lose their jobs.

    Spend the bailout money helping them instead. Maybe even make some sort of society wide safety net, so people don't need to fear losing their jobs through no fault of their own. Let the companies sink or swim on their own merits.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago

    We will be.

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