Also Peter Thiel.

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[–] 157 points 2 months ago (67 children)

This is exactly why there needs to be a separation between church and state. How can you trust someone to run the country, when all their decisions are grounded in magical thinking?

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  • [–] 22 points 2 months ago (6 children)

    Umm.. we have that. What we lack is law enforcement.

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  • [–] 7 points 2 months ago (5 children)

    Don't you have to swear on the bible?

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  • [–] 28 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    You can swear on anything you want.

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  • [–] 8 points 2 months ago

    In the UK you can even make an affirmation if you are not religious or your religion forbids you from taking an oath. This as brought in originally for the Quakers but anyone who objects to Christian oaths has this option.

    When I did jury service I took the secular route, though I wouldn't have strongly objected to swearing the traditional oath either. I quite like the idea God is personally nosing into the daily business of HM Courts and Tribunals, although judging by the backlog he abandoned the justice system long ago.

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  • [+] -52 points 2 months ago (59 children)

    Separation of church and state is different from separation of state and religious laymen. The majority of the population are religious so excluding them would be worse democratically than excluding women. What's actually meant by separation of church and state is that people working in the church (priests, Bishops, popes) shouldn't meddle with the running of the state. Nothing to do with religious laymen.

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  • [–] 38 points 2 months ago (9 children)

    Are you saying it’s fine for elected religious laymen to force religion into our government and onto its people because they’re not church officials?

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  • [+] -27 points 2 months ago (8 children)

    If a religious layman is motivated by his religion to make policies that you don't agree with you should not vote for that person. If anyone else agrees with his religiously motivated policies then they should be allowed to vote for that person. I don't think this is too crazy of a concept. Now if that specific religiously motivated policy happens to be unconstitutional that is a totally different matter.

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  • [–] 31 points 2 months ago (4 children)

    This is how you end up with religious persecution and pogroms.

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  • [+] -19 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    Is religious persecution and pogroms allowed in the constitution? Also systematically disallowing religious people from office is a form of religious persecution.

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  • [–] 11 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    Mmmm, no that's what the First Amendment is partially for. The government shall pass no law respecting the establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. I have a right to be a Satanist in peace without yokels shoving their way of life down my throat

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  • [+] -8 points 2 months ago

    If a lawmaker bans satanism or enacts a law that otherwise discriminates against satanists. Then that's not allowed. But what wouldn't be a problem would be a religious lawmaker on a totally secular subject. Like the example I gave in another comment how one could in theory loosen immigration restriction by quoting the parable of the good Samaritan. That law would not be religious law, even if the law maker was motivated by his religious belief.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago

    It’s not too crazy of a concept but is absolutely not what separation of church and state means. It’s crazy that you think this is what it means.

    You can’t have the majority forcing their religion onto the minority. That’s the exact reason we have separation of church and state. To protect the people who will never win an election.

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  • [–] 22 points 2 months ago (26 children)

    I have no problem with people having religious beliefs...in private. But, as far as I'm concerned, as soon as those religious beliefs start dictating your policy priorities...you have lost your ability to make objective decisions on behalf of the rest of us. That goes equally for "laymen" as well as "professionals".

    This case is a perfect example. Anyone openly saying that they're just going to "follow their faith", even if it leads us all to total destruction, needs to be removed from office. Yesterday. I wouldn't even trust that person to drive a city bus, let alone guide policy for the entire population.

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  • [–] -5 points 2 months ago (25 children)

    I agree that if a religious laymen uses religion to make bad policies then he shouldn't be in office. However democracy is supposed to represent the people and if the people want to elect a religious nutjob then that's a failure of the people, not the democratic system. You can't make a law that says religious people can't run for office as that would be extremely undemocratic and go against religious freedom.

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  • [–] 14 points 2 months ago (20 children)

    You can't make a law that says religious people can't run for office...but you can make a law that says they can't make policy based on their religious beliefs.

    That's what the 1st amendment is supposed to prevent.

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  • [+] -7 points 2 months ago (19 children)

    I'm not American so correct me if I'm wrong. But wasn't the first amendment about disallowing the government from establishing or favoring a specific religious establishment. Meaning it would be illegal to say make a law that favors or teaches baptism in school at the expense of another Christian flavor. What I understand of the history behind freedom of religion in the US was that people were sick of the UK mandating the very specific theology of the Anglican church and instead wanting a system where people were allowed to practice any flavor of Christianity that they wanted. From this it would be no problem being a religious person in office but it would not be okay for that person to give benefits or favor to their specific church while in office.

    Not making policy based on religious belief would be impossible however. One's religion would impact one's entire morality and value system. So one could say we should enact policy X because the bible says so. But one couldn't say we should enact policy X because the southern baptist Convention just made a ruling that policy X should be enacted and now we have to make a law that matches that ruling.

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  • [–] 11 points 2 months ago (18 children)

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

    It is as you said...primarily as a freedom to practice whatever religion you want...but this also effectively prohibits any government official from enacting any policy or legislation that promotes their own religious beliefs over any other, since it may conflict with the free practice of someone else's religion.

    In essence, it prevents the state from getting involved in religious matters altogether.

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  • [–] -3 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    But I could in theory promote a secular policy based on my theoretical religious belief. Say I want to lower barriers to immigration and as motivation I quote the parable of the good Samaritan saying that even foreigners should be treated as ones neighbour. Now in doing this I'm letting my religious belief affect my policy making. However I'm not inhibiting anyone else's free practice of religion since this is secular policy.

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  • [–] 4 points 2 months ago*

    Yup. That's all very true. But, when some idiot politician like JD here, straight up says the quiet part out loud, you can sue the government for all kinds of wrongful damages. Now, all of his policy positions can justifiably be scrutinized through this lens.

    As for inhibiting anyone else's free practice...that's where the first amendment is most powerful. I have the right to not be governed by someone else's religious beliefs. So, when JD here straight up admits that he's governing based on his religious beliefs...that automatically means he's infringing upon everyone else's.

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  • [–] -4 points 2 months ago* (14 children)

    prohibits any government official from enacting any policy or legislation that promotes their own religious beliefs over any other, since it may conflict with the free practice of someone else's religion.

    Okay, so Christianity says we can't kill people. But jihadism exists in Islam. Then the law must allow killing by Islamists to avoid being based on Christian beliefs and restricting jihadists' practice?

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (12 children)

    Not exactly. Secular law supercedes religious law...and that is based on the concept of measurable harm. This is the concept that you cannot inflict measurable harm on another person against their will, without running afoul of the law in some way...whether it be a criminal or a civil violation.

    However, there have been plenty of cases in the US where religious folks have argued...sometimes successfully...that their religious beliefs grant them an exception to secular law. But, unless local laws already make allowances for it, those cases always require a trial to determine whether that exception should be granted. And they are rare.

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  • [–] -2 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (11 children)

    Secular law supercedes religious law...and that is based on the concept of measurable harm. This is the concept that you cannot inflict measurable harm on another person against their will

    That's a bold claim that it's based on that concept, when there were and are plenty of laws that caused harm, and some of them are conspicuously based on Christian norms.

    For example, both federal and twenty-six states' law prohibit cannabis for recreational use while allowing alcohol. Some states prohibit abortion even in the case of danger to the mother. How was that harm measured?

    Besides, why do you think that religious laws aren't based on a belief in their moral utilitarianism? Just like modern laws don't work on purely libertarian terms where one can't limit another in any way except for self-defense, religious prescriptions also followed a perceived common good.

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  • You're mixing apples with pears there...

    Some states prohibit abortion even in the case of danger to the mother. How was that harm measured?

    That's not harm measured and therefore is a bad law. Just as your example of "then law should allow Muslims to kill just not to be a Christian-based law". Basically, laws should be entirely based on science and reason, two things that are the opposite of any and all religions.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (9 children)

    It feels like you're trying to make the argument that if a system is somehow corruptible, then there should be no system at all. Is that how you view this?

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  • [–] 0 points 2 months ago (8 children)

    Where did I say that? But, if you want a robust system, you should probably find a better definition than that handwavey, wishy-washy one in which holes are seen by an internet nobody in a minute. However, this vagueness tracks particularly with English/US law where lawmaking is delegated to the judges who can handwave things in and out as they see fit.

    And, what's certain is that Western law is based on Christian system of morality no matter how much you want it to not be.

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  • [–] 0 points 2 months ago (7 children)

    Lol! You're the one who "hand-waved" it away, like it's some simplified slogan, that you clearly don't understand.

    Western Law isn't "based" on Christianity. It's based in logic, and philosophy. It holds that "truth" is based on evidence and objective facts...not faith or adherence to scripture.

    It's literally the exact opposite of religious law, which is dictated by decree, without evidence or rationality.

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  • [–] 0 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (6 children)

    Sure bud. You produced a 'definition' that doesn't work because it folds under slightest scrutiny, then you accused me of rejecting Western democracy while refusing to explain how your definition would work in practice, now you spout a bunch of empty proclamations worthy of an adolescent edgelord, while failing to grasp where the bulk of religious law comes from. And you say that it's me who's handwaving and doesn't understand. Big 'in this moment i am euphoric' energy there. People like you are why online atheist movement is treated as a laughable circlejerk.

    Also, US law is based on racism, bigotry, misogyny, self-centered backwardness and corporatocracy, along with 'Christian values'. So you probably shouldn't pipe up about that.

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  • [–] 0 points 2 months ago (5 children)

    Lol! Um, ok. Are you seriously saying that you don't know anything about this...but, you're still going to double down anyway?

    Go to school, kid. Seriously. Even just read a book or something.

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  • [–] 0 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (4 children)

    There's no doubt that people much smarter than you wrote about this topic, but there's also no evidence that you learned anything from them but just the surface ideas.

    You should try learning to either troll more subtly, or to produce some constructive thought. Then you perhaps might be treated somewhat seriously outside of the fedora m'lady community.

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  • [–] 0 points 2 months ago (3 children)

    Oh, I see. You're a troll, then. That makes sense. No one is this confidently incorrect when Google is available, unless they're just pretending to be stupid for the lols.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago (2 children)

    Fuck, you're really tiring. You can wear your fedora and your cute coat and write stuff that you can't substantiate all day long, what do I care? I should've known better than to pop into a space dedicated to conceited hot-air types like you sucking each other off.

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  • [–] 4 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    Man either you're trolling (propaganda spreading) or you're so dense it's worthless to try to explain anything to you.

    Separation of church and state isn't that hard a concept. Even a child can understand it.

    But u: sHoUlD wE BAN rEligious pEoPle??!!!

    Common grow up, it's actually a cool place here if you do want to discuss.

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  • [–] -5 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    The original comment said: " How can you trust someone to run the country, when all their decisions are grounded in magical thinking?"

    This in regards to the need to have a separation of church and state on a post about JD Vance being religiously motivated in the decisions he's making. I interpret this as the person seeing the existence of JD Vance as a failure of "separation of church and state" and that this separation needs to become stronger. However JD Vance is not part of the clergy. He's simply a religious layman. No church is running this government and therefore the current separation of church and state doesn't apply.

    So then my question to you is, how would you by law prevent another JD Vance from being elected, for the explicit reason that he uses religion to make decisions, without banning religious people from political office ?

    I can't find a good solution to this without making thought crime a thing. A religious person would be unable to see certain issues without some kind of perspective from their religion.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago

    Holy fuck do you think separation of church and state only means that we can’t have the equivalent of the Holy Roman Emperor? Like You actually think the first amendment is about stopping the church from running the government?

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  • [–] 30 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (13 children)

    FUCKING LIES!

    Separation of church and state is different from separation of state and religious laymen.

    Fucking lies!. And it’s a bald faced lie that results in “In God We Trust” on our money.

    There is either a separation or there is not. There is no in between. It is binary and that’s the end of it. Anyone who attempts to negotiate an in-between is a FUCKING LIAR

    E PLURIBUS UNUM

    And if you have a problem with that, then you have a problem with democracy

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  • [+] -15 points 2 months ago (6 children)

    It's not a lie. That's how the very inventor of the term "separation of church and state" defined it and how it has been used for hundreds of years after. Roger Williams, who first used the term, was a puritan, later baptist, pastor. What you're describing would be an innovation and expansion of what separation of church and state means. It seems what you really want is a separation between religion and state. That is a totally different issue. In the future it would be advantageous for you to be clear on that and explicitly say that it's religion, not just church, that you want to exclude from the state.

    I'm curious though. Which people would you want to exclude from the government. Church goers are obvious. But what about the "spiritual but not religious" people? Or people who believe in ghosts but not god? What about natives who believe their native religions? The non god believing buddhist? Who would define if someone is religious enough to be disallowed from running for office? Whoever that person was, that person would get immense power.

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  • [–] 12 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (4 children)

    It's not a lie.

    lol, nice try, fuck bag. That bullshit doesn’t work here anymore.

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  • [+] -11 points 2 months ago (3 children)

    I'm fine with you insulting me. However I'm still interested to learn where you would draw the line between the non religious and the religious in your proposed ban of religious people in political office.

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  • [–] 13 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    Noone advocated for banning religious people. We want to prevent religious policy

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  • [+] -7 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    If I'm fine with having religious laymen in government and you're also fine with having religious laymen in government then I'm not sure on what we disagree.

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  • [–] 4 points 2 months ago

    Just stop, no one is interested in your garbage laymen bullshit.

    NO RELIGIOUS LAWS OR TEXTS IN THE LAWS, THEY NEED TO STAY SECULAR BECAUSE THERE IS MORE THAN ONE RELIGION AND WE WANT TO RESPECT THEM ALL.

    If we start using christian laymen religious texts in laws then we will need all other religions texts right next to the christian ones so that it is fair to the other beliefs.

    Is that what you want?

    Is that how laws should be made?

    How about just cutting religion out of the equation all together and making the text of law about the law and not about you?

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  • [+] -6 points 2 months ago (4 children)

    Am I understanding you correct that you think no person with religious beliefs should be allowed to hold office?

    E pluribus unum

    As long as none of the pluribus hold any religious belief?

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  • [–] 4 points 2 months ago (3 children)

    Am I understanding you correct

    No

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago*

    Which makes a lot of sense when you remember a lot of the North American population hailed from families who had a specific beef with a specific church and state; the role of bishops was one of these many axis of opposition during the conflict in Britain and Ireland.

    The English Civil War and its aftermath is barely taught on either side of the Atlantic, yet it's so important to understanding both countries' history. The per capita casualty rate was worse than WW1, no wonder people felt rather strongly about religion and in some cases still do

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  • [–] 3 points 2 months ago (5 children)

    The down votes on this are insane to me. He just gave the original definition of the separation of church and state.

    Every elected representative should only be bound by existing laws and their own conscience. That means that if someone chooses to listen to sky daddy or the flying spaghetti monster while in elected office, that's up to them. It sucks, but you can't have a democracy in which you tell people what the basis for their decisions must be. If the people elect an Astrologer to office that person should be free to base their decisions on the movement of Jupiter through Sagittarius or whatever.

    Democracy is designed to empower the statistical average will of the people. Not produce "best" (by whatever measure) outcomes for the country. Just what people want.

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  • [–] 0 points 2 months ago (4 children)

    Wow you think That is what democracy is?

    Like vote to benefit yourself? It explains the state of some places in the world rn but that's wild if you come from a democratic country.

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  • [–] -1 points 2 months ago (3 children)

    No. Democracy is definitionally "Vote what you want to vote for."

    Ideally people vote for what they think is best for the country/the world/your peers.

    But part of democracy (and a rather important part) is that NOBODY GETS TO TELL ANYBODY WHAT TO VOTE FOR AND WHY (within the legal confines of what allowed political expression is). So yes. A lot of people vote for what they think will be best for them. And people often make fun of people that vote for things that will be bad for them (see the whole leopards eating faces meme culture).

    So "voting to benefit one self" can not be a crazy concept to you...

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  • [–] 1 point 2 months ago

    Okay sure one part is you get to vote on who/which party you want, but that wasn't what I was arguing about.

    1. vote is not to get what you want, it is to kick out the bad person, replace them.

    2. getting active in politics is what you do to actually change something.

    Both these are subdued or erased in dictatorships, but not in functional democracies.

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  • [–] 61 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    Main-charactering. Obviously it has to happen during their lifetime because otherwise it would mean they're just as unimportant as the rest of us.

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  • [–] 38 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    I don't want to hear anyone ever again try to tell me that women can't be good leaders because they are too emotional or delusional. Look at this weirdo.

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  • [–] 36 points 2 months ago* (8 children)

    According to the Bible, there will be some sort of ultimate showdown between good and evil when the world ends. “Good” is preordained to win. Therefore, some religious nuts think that by helping the world to end, they’re helping fulfill god’s plan.

    In my opinion, they’re just giving themselves license to be cruel, hateful bastards.

    I don’t know the motivation of nuts who don’t claim to follow the Bible, but I suspect the previous sentence still applies.

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  • [–] 11 points 2 months ago

    Doesn't the Bible also say that there's nothing you can do to bring the end times around faster?

    So why not do objectively good things until then, instead?

    Maybe it's one of gods tests, and he wants to see if you're a good person even in the face of inevitability.

    I can't with these religious people.

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  • [–] 4 points 2 months ago

    I find it interesting that humans need to "fulfill gods plan". Clearly that god is not all powerful or it would not need a plan, it would just do as it pleases. That's what being a god is. And this is why religion is so stupid, it's all made up and most of it is violence, suppression, repression, discrimination, hate & ignorance.

    Rarely is there "love" or compassion coming from a religion.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    I feel like God left specific rules you cannot break, according to God. How do you convince yourself to do evil in God's name I don't know.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago

    When you tell yourself “It’s for the greater good”, you can make yourself do anything - especially when you believe in a god that allows war, and sits idly by while children die of cancer and starvation. You’re already doing a lot of mental gymnastics, so it just becomes one more trick.

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  • [–] 30 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    Because they are in death cults, fantasizing about death.

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  • [–] 29 points 2 months ago

    Evangelicals are fucking nuts

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  • [–] 57 points 2 months ago (5 children)

    If you say the things these people say, but in Arabic, they are indistinguishable from bin laden, Khomeini, KSM, and all the other religious extremists that the US fears.

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  • [–] 5 points 2 months ago (4 children)

    You know... this might be in bad taste perhaps. But maybe.. taking what these dipshits say, translating it to Arabic and overlaying it on a photo of the aforementioned, then putting it on Facebook, but be like "Can you believe what they're saying..." or "Not in my country!" or something. Once it's big enough, it'll come out naturally that Bin Laden didn't say it, the quote is some MAGA member saying it... idk, I think it might at least reach a few people once the messages are reframed/re-contextualized.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    You give far too much faith on the general population's ability or willingness to actually read (and for the social media sites willingness to allow it to spread)

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago

    The gotcha style of persuasion doesn't really work in terms of getting people to reconsider their stance. It doesn't change people's opinion because it's a cheap and obvious gimmick. Feels good for you and people who already are aligned, basically the perfect example of an ideological circle jerk.

    While it's hard to change some ones mind if they aren't open to change, it's also easy to turn people away from your cause if they see you aren't being genuine.

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  • [–] 24 points 2 months ago

    He is just playing to the base. This weasel will say anything and turn on a dime if it suits his purposes. Remember what he said about Trump before he became vice president...

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  • [–] 19 points 2 months ago (2 children)

    how can you be evangelical and not think that Trump is the antichrist in that story

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  • [–] 18 points 2 months ago (1 child)

    Because their religion tells them they can fuck up this world and when it ends, they get into paradise because God will give them a universal Mulligan.

    Reality: nothing happens, they become high fat worm food, then high fat worm shit.

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  • [–] 18 points 2 months ago

    Because everyone in this life hates them, including their own family.

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  • [–] 18 points 2 months ago

    Death cult!

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  • [–] 16 points 2 months ago

    You know your administration is doing a bad job when you use the end of the world as a selling point.

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