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[–] 133 points 3 months ago (45 children)

The story is way more insane, the Greek messenger, Pheidippides, did two runs, a round trip from Athens to Sparta and back, like 480km through mountains in two days, then (during the battle of Marathon) his final run from Marathon to Athens (40km), the one he is famous for, saying "Nike! " meaning Greek "we won!" before collapsing and dying.

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  • [–] 73 points 3 months ago (36 children)

    480km through mountains in two days

    Lol, my man was running 10 kilometers per hour for 48 hours straight?

    Like with anything in Ancient Greek history, the numbers they quote are typically meaningless. The amount of exaggeration or straight up lying they did back then would make kim jong il blush.

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  • [–] 22 points 3 months ago (13 children)

    I'm sure they're lying but running an average of 10 kilometers per hour over 48 hours isn't insane

    Usain Bolt's top speed is 44 kilometers per hour. Maybe the dude wasn't that fast or running top speed the whole time but his job was running a lot I'm sure he was fast as fuck.

    So maybe it averaged out and it was only exaggerated a little bit?

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  • [–] 31 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    They have ultra marathons where you run for 24 hours straight, and this guy would have smoked the current record holder going over rough terrain.

    People in general are more athletic nowadays, but our top athletes are basically inhuman compared to athletes from 75 years ago, let alone 2000 years.

    It's most likely a straight up lie, or exaggerated by several multitudes. Ancient "historians" are pretty famous for exaggerating things to make things look more heroic.

    For example Herodotus claimed Xerxes led an invasion force of over 5 million people, in reality it was more like 100k-300k. This was well known even as far back as the Roman, who called Herodotus both the father of history and the father of lies.

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  • [–] 7 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    I mean yeah it's definitely a lie I'm not saying it isn't.

    But I do think it's not that insane of a lie. I mean for one apparently the guy died and for two genetic freak factor.

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  • [–] 6 points 3 months ago

    It's insane, and science agrees. Read up on Functional Threshold Pace (FTP), which is what would be a factor in runs like this. The sheer amount of fueling (food+water) required to keep pace going would be insanely impossible for 480km, unaided, without stops. And I mean all caps INSANE.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago

    I still think it's pretty crazy. The "genetic freak factor" is still moderated by the conditions of their environment.

    We have a lot more genetically gifted athletes now then back then, and our genetically gifted athletes grew up with diets fortified with vitamins and other nutrients. If modern athletes even slightly struggle with doing something similar, ancient athletes would find it impossible.

    It's just as crazy as claiming that someone from ancient greece would be able to compete on the same level as Usain Bolt in sprinting.

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  • [–] 23 points 3 months ago (8 children)

    10km per hour over 48 hours is absolutely insane, and the comparison with Bolt's 100m world record doesn't make any sense.

    The ultramarathon world record holders today might do it : the closest existing event is the Spartathlon, a one-way Athens-Sparta race, for which the records are around 20h. Which leaves 8h of sleep before you have to do the world record run a second time...

    Another decent comparison is the 48h ultramarathon. Matthieu Bonne broke the world record at 485km in 48h in 2025, the previous one being 475km.

    But Matthieu Bonne is running on a flat rubber track. And both examples have modern shoes, nutrition and a support team following them.

    So we are supposing our guy is world record material, even though he is selected from a population of 30k male Athenian citizen at the time. We are supposing he is running the world record twice, back to back, in sandals and without anyone to help him on the way. And/or we are supposing he is running as fast as a guy doing it on flat rubber.

    It's not quite impossible (or only slightly exaggerated) but it sure as hell is absolutely insane.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    He also fought in a battle immediately after the run. Then ran some more. Then died.

    You don't think someone could run themselves to death? Humans are capable of miraculous things.

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  • [–] 4 points 3 months ago

    Definitely insane but I don't think it's that insane. There are definitely far more embellishments that are unbelievable than that.

    I do also think we should account for straight genetic freaks. They lived back then too. I doubt this guy was one but I'd bet the fastest person that ever lived has a higher likelihood of being lost to history than competing professionally today

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    I remember a similar argument about how it was impossible for the Egyptians to have built the pyramids. It comes down to ‘I don’t understand how it could be done, so it’s impossible’

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  • [–] 11 points 3 months ago* (14 children)

    My brother in Christ yes the poets exaggerate but we can map the distance from cities with lasers in space so we know how far he ran. The question is how fast.

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  • [–] 15 points 3 months ago (13 children)

    Right, but I'm not disputing the distance between cities. That's not the subjective information in this claim. I am disputing if he actually ran a full round trip, just from one to the other, or even just part of that. We could also ask how long it took, or if he even ran it at all.

    When ancient sources claim unbelievable things, it is fairly reasonable to just not believe them.

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  • [–] 10 points 3 months ago (12 children)

    All right, but it isn't exactly unbelievable that someone ran for 2 days then keeled over dead, from exhaustion.

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  • [–] 16 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    I think how it's depicted is pretty suspicious. If a modern politician like Trump claimed something like that would you believe him?

    "Pheidippides was a tremendous runner, really the greatest messenger in the history of messengers. When the Persians (very bad people) were attacking, the generals went to him and said, "We need a runner." He didn't complain. He ran, he fought, he ran again.

    He ran all the way to Athens to deliver the good news. He sprinted the whole way, arrived, and shouted, "We won!" (truly a beautiful message). And because he gave it his absolute all, he was totally drained and he tragically collapsed and died. Very sad, but a perfect ending for a hero. Nobody ran better than Pheidippides."

    Is that very believable to you? Or does it ring of nationalistic propaganda?

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  • [–] 0 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    Normally in propaganda the hero doesn't fall over dead from human limitations.

    It's far more believable than: Philip the demigod was so tuff he could run for two days straight and not break a sweat.

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  • [–] 9 points 3 months ago

    Heroic sacrifice is a very common trope in propaganda.....Also, I wouldn't claim him to be the overall hero of the battle of marathon. That would prob be Miltiades, Themistocles, or Aristides.

    The popularization of the tale of someone running matarathon wasn't popularized until Plutarch wrote about it nearly 500 years later and he named the runner "Eucles, although also possible Thersippus of Eroeada", then around 100 years later Lucian of Samosata gave the same story but names the runner Philippides (not Pheidippides).

    Philip the demigod was so tuff he could run for two days straight and not break a sweat.

    And there is a difference between mythology and history.

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  • [–] 4 points 3 months ago (8 children)

    It's a story that went through millennia, I think a bit of inaccuracy is valid. I mean, I only need a few beers to embellish my stories.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (6 children)

    I mean ok but what here do you think has been embellished? we know the distance we know human endurance and average health for the time period. As far as ancient stories go this one is pretty cut and dry factual IMHO. No magic no divine fate just a man running until burnout

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  • The first-known written account of a run from Marathon to Athens occurs in the works of the Greek writer Plutarch (46–120 AD), in his essay "On the Glory of Athens". Plutarch attributes the run to a herald called either Thersippus or Eukles. Lucian, a century later, credits one "Philippides". It seems likely that in the 500 years between Herodotus's time and Plutarch's, the story of Pheidippides had become muddled with that of the Battle of Marathon (in particular with the story of the Athenian forces making the march from Marathon to Athens in order to intercept the Persian ships headed there), and some fanciful writer had invented the story of the run from Marathon to Athens. Magill and Moose (2003) suggest that the story of the Marathon–Athens run and Pheidippides's death is likely a "romantic invention". They point out that Lucian is the only classical source with all the elements of the story known in modern culture as the "Marathon story of Pheidippides": a messenger running from the fields of Marathon to announce victory, then dying on completion of his mission

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (4 children)
  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (2 children)

    If he had a horse he wouldn't have died....

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago (5 children)

    Also didn’t they have horses?

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  • [–] 10 points 3 months ago

    The Greeks weren’t really noted for their horsemanship and a man can outrun a horse anyway.

    However having fresh horses at properly spaced outposts like the Romans used are far superior.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago

    Yes, but at this time only your very wealthiest members of the aristocracy would be able to afford one. That part of greece is too mountainous to easily breed and take care of horses, so they became more of a status symbol than anything. It's one of the reasons why Macedonia was able to conquer the southern Greek states with relative ease.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (2 children)

    Horses actually just walk the whole way. You can do about 30 miles a day.

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  • [–] 16 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    480 km in two days in the mountains

    Sure ya did Pheidippides. Sure ya did.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    But… they won… what was the big rush on his way back? Like if he was trying to outpace an incoming invasion, THAT I could understand. Was he in that much of a hurry to get the party started?

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

    The initial story that was told just involved the run to Sparta in a single day prior to the battle to ask for assistance. After the Athenians won the battle, they marched the 40km to Athens in full armor in order to arrive before the retreating Persians could launch a naval attack on the city itself. Later, these two stories got combined into the popular legend that's described in this post.

    So yeah, the rush was that they were trying to outpace an incoming invasion. They won the battle, but the war was still on. Their rush back to Athens allowed them to stop a direct assault on the city, which led the Persians to retreat entirely.

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  • [–] 42 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    He wasn't even delivering some critical information or orders or anything. He died delivering news of the victory. I like his enthusiasm, but they could have waited a day. That's the kind of initiative that gets rewarded with more work. Or death, apparently.

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  • [–] 23 points 3 months ago

    He did actually, even after losing whomever the greeks were fighting (Persians?), they send some boats up river to Athens, presumably to tell the city they won and extort whatever they could. So it was important that the Athenians knew the battle was won before the boats arrived.

    Source: an ancient history podcast I listened to like two years ago. (So I am vague of the details)

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  • [–] 25 points 3 months ago (6 children)

    I sub-2hr marathon is more impressive than you think.

    You know how they say it's a marathon, not a sprint? Well, it turns out if you sprint long enough you complete a marathon; most people can't sprint for 2 hours, tho.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    I haven’t seen the video but I read somewhere that they basically had to invent a new type of carbohydrate gel that could absorb calories into the runner’s stomach faster than any food ever had before, in order to make the time possible. Some scientist was working on this project for years. It’s crazy!

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

    That gel is mentioned one in the video, but your comment already provides more information than I know about it.

    The video mainly talks about how (a) the second half-marathon was actually faster than the first half-marathon (b) any of the 5k segment times would be a world-class pace and (c) take any race length, calculate their average time for that length across the marathon, and it's damned impressive: their average 100m time was a good sprint time ad they did it nearly 430 times without stopping.

    The author them matches their 400m pace for 400m, then collapses at 600m having already fallen off pace.

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  • [–] 33 points 3 months ago

    This is why every real marathon ends in spitting on a grave and saying "That's how it's done, bitch."

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  • [–] 7 points 3 months ago

    I like that attitude.

    I'd be dead after running 26 miles, but even dead I'd start a fight.

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  • [–] 7 points 3 months ago

    So if I ran 25 miles and died, can there be a MidzisedSedan-athon held in my honor?

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  • [–] 14 points 3 months ago (5 children)

    Marathons should be ran in bronze made armor!

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  • [–] 20 points 3 months ago (4 children)

    Why? Story goes that the guy was actually naked (or arrived naked).

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  • [+] 3 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (4 children)
  • [–] 10 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    There are two main accoints of the story and, ironically, he didn't actually manage anything useful in either of them

    In the oldest one, he was sent from Athens to Sparta to ask for help against the invadng Persians. He ran 240 km in two days in this version of the story, only for the Spartans to say that actually they were busy with a religious festival and would not be coming to help. He then ran back. In this one he runs more than ten marathons in a matter of days and doesn't die, and while the Spartans didn't help someone did have to go ask to find that out

    In the later one, he ran the 40 km from the battle of Marathon back to Athens to say "we won" and then die. Of course, there's not really any strategic decisions required from the information of "we won", so in this version he ran himself to death for basically no reason at all

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  • [–] 15 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    The "we won" message was important because the Persians retreated with their navy mostly intact, and they suspected they would show up in Athens and pretend they won to get concessions from the city.

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  • [–] 4 points 3 months ago* (1 child)

    HA

    Wait until they learn story behind “The North Face”.

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