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[–] 8 points 3 months ago

In the kernel community we do open source because it results in better technology, not because of religious reasons.

Open source came about because people wanted to learn (and help others learn) and because they wanted to modify software for their own purposes. Even before copyleft came into play, people would share their work to just share what they did with others.

Later, when things got more complex it became useful to take contributions from others and to build collectively. That made copyleft more useful. And these licenses also became a shield against proprietary aggression.

I don't disagree it more often than not results in better software, but that isn't really my primary motivating factor, personally.

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  • [–] 15 points 3 months ago

    I really hate the comparison with compilers and assemblers. They are deterministic whereas LLMs aren't.

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  • [–] 5 points 3 months ago

    "AI is a tool" - Number one message to make yourself look like a tool

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  • [–] 16 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    AI is a tool, just like other tools we use. And it's clearly a useful one.

    It may not have been that "clearly" even just a year ago, but it's no longer in question today.

    This is such a massive red flag comment. If anything it's become increasingly clear in the last year how problematic the tech is...

    He follows that up by saying people should make the tools help maintainers not harm them, but suggests no means to do so. This is so blasé and hand wavy, especially when he's responding to people complaining about how it's making their jobs harder. "Just use the tools better". Gee, thanks Linus.

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  • [–] 13 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    He made his stance pretty clear in the video he made with LTT, I agree with him that Machine Learning could be useful but the current LLMs we use are way too power hungry and too complex. I think in the future smaller and more specific models that you could run locally are the way to go.

    Also they have pretty big donations, they could hire some more people

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  • [–] 4 points 3 months ago

    He also inadvertently exposed he’s using Claude Mythos, and likely in Project Glasswing:

    "it keeps finding embarrassing bugs"
    […]
    anybody who points to the problems at AI had better be looking in the mirror and pointing at themselves at the same time.

    Found dissonance here sweet.

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  • [–] 6 points 3 months ago
    [–] 0 points 3 months ago
    69 comments in c/linux@programming.dev view that post
    [–] 75 points 3 months ago (9 children)

    All it takes is one person using an LLM tainted with proprietary code which then just gives them that code line for line to undo decades of courtroom defense.

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  • [–] 41 points 3 months ago* (7 children)

    Not only that, but AI output can't be licensed/copyrighted. The GPL license no longer covers the kernel in legal terms.

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  • [–] 16 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    The GPL license no longer covers the kernel in legal terms.

    The uncopyrightability of AI-written code only applies to the actual strings of code generated by an AI, not to the entire project.

    A person could ignore the GPL if they only copied the AI-written portions. But, how could they know for sure which lines were AI generated and which were not? A wrong choice would leave them civilly liable for copyright violation and all they stand to gain would be tiny portions of the Linux kernel code which are worthless by themselves.

    There's no reason to steal the AI generated portions and risk a lawsuit, when you can just generate your own code.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    Whoever combines LLM generated code with GPL licensed code is required to license the result under the GPL. Can they do that if the LLM code isn't copyrightable?

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

    Essentially yes.

    The GPL license is a way to take things that can be copyrighted and grant those rights to others with limitations (the limitations being the terms of the license).

    However, the AI generated portions of the code are not copyrightable and so they're considered public domain and remain so no matter what. Once something is public domain it is always public domain, no matter where it is used.

    In practice, if someone wrote a function by hand and then the AI added some error handling code, then that person has a copyright to the lines that they wrote while the lines that the AI wrote are public domain. The entire function can still be licensed under the GPL but the copyright owner would not be able to pursue you for violation of the license if you used the error handling code in another non-GPL work as that portion is public domain.

    From a legal standpoint, since the code isn't annotated as to which parts were human written (protected by copyright/GPL) and which parts were not (and fall under public domain), it would be unwise to attempt to violate the GPL license terms by taking arbitrary parts of the code and releasing them without a GPL license.

    The Free Software Foundation, the creators of the GNU GPL, has an FAQ that covers a lot of the details: https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.en.html#CombinePublicDomainWithGPL

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  • [–] -2 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    this is FUD and not true. projects are licensed not lines of code.

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  • [–] 5 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    But if there are proprietary lines of code that end up in a project with an open license, you get a violation. 🤷‍♂️

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  • [–] -4 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    what is a proprietary line of code? how do you look at a for loop or uf statement and say "i own that". i can tell you that in all the huge applications i have worked on in the last 27 years, there isnt special proprietary code. there is proprietary data but not code.

    the only time you really have proprietary codeis specialized code talking to a specialized device. so maybe a closed source driver.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago*

    I have worked at two companies back-to-back for a total of about 8 years, so significantly less time, that both definitely had proprietary code.

    It is code that does things that nobody else is doing, or able to do, and patented, I believe(?).

    But nice anecdote. 👍

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  • [–] 40 points 3 months ago (29 children)

    Human written code these days feels equivalent to a unique and soulful artisan made item whereas AI code is like a soulless and defected factory made imitation. I'd much, much, much, rather support artisans over factory made slop and even before AI, artisan work has been well known to be significantly higher quality than factory made stuff. For something as foundational and important as a kernel, I really think AI has no place in it.

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  • [–] 26 points 3 months ago (7 children)

    All I care about is whether it works and is secure. Bonus points for cheaper and faster development. If artisan code gets us there, sure. If AI code gets us there, great. I trust Linus to know what works and what doesn't.

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  • [–] 10 points 3 months ago (5 children)

    I suppose the big issue for me is that I'm also an artist and I view code similarly, especially when I combine code with my graphics. I understand though that with a large project you are going to have some amount of people using AI even if you try to filter them out, so I can partially understand his stance. However I really disagree with him when he says it's a useful tool, given how AI causes brain rot, productivity losses, and environmental destruction.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (4 children)

    As for productivity losses and environmental destruction, that's sort of what I was referring to when I said "bonus points for cheaper and faster development". The environmental destruction refers to energy usage. Productivity can be thought of as time usage. If AI can be cheaper than humans in both time and energy, then that's a win.

    There's a related discussion about how the context here is mainly about finding vulnerabilies with AI. And that is one where AI does seem to be faster and cheaper than using humans. Since AI is now finding kernel vulnerabilities that have been lurking there for 15+ years.

    Maybe code generation will get there too.

    As an artist you might also be worried about how AI is trained on copyrighted data. But I personally don't really care about copyright

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    While I am very anti-genAI, I'm much more okay with analytical AI as long as it's not blindly trusted. Technically they don't need an LLM as they could use something smaller and optimized just to find vulnerabilities. I still take issue with ethical and environmental concerns but I think there are solutions to them. We just need to slow down, take the time to do things right, and ditch the whole "move fast and break things" mindset commonly seen in tech, but I doubt that will ever happen.

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  • [–] 0 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    What's your argument against generative AI but not analytical AI? From what I've seen the arguments for/against one also work for the other

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    My viewpoint is that genAI will always cause cognitive decline no matter what however I haven't come across any studies yet about analytical AI also brain rotting people. If it's trained on data with consent from it's owners' and they find a solution to the environmental problems, I'd be fine with it as long as it's used for good purposes.

    This post about AI detecting cancer makes me believe it might be genuinely useful, although of course it can be used for despicable, evil purposes as well.

    Also, humans really like making/designing things. I don't see the point in automating activities that many people love doing. Every time I come across an ad advertising image gen or whatever it just feels so out of touch with humanity.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago

    Fair. I think if somebody gets brainrot from using AI that's their own problem, just like a programmer losing their coding skills after become a product manager. I don't see how that makes AI bad.

    I don't see the point in automating activities that many people love doing.

    Some people like the process, some people like the product. For those who only care about the product, why not let them use AI? Doesn't stop you from enjoying the process.

    I admit that this is getting pretty far from the original discussion though so no worries if you'd rather end it here. I just have fun thinking about these things

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 child)

    In the past all you had was human-made so this distinction wasn't even a thing.

    I'm just very bitter that people will probably be made to use AI. Coding, as it was done before the advent of LLMs, was fun to me. Being a prompt engineer isn't. I hope and pray AI isn't here to stay, but if it is, what I thought would be a career full of doing something I enjoy, is just going to be a boring slog. (I currently took a different job outside of tech over this—I graduated with a CS degree as LLM usage was exploding and getting forced on everyone.) Years wasted prepping for a career I'll never do, but at least nobody can force me to use LLMs in hobby projects.

    But even if I do not code for work, I dread every non-manual job turning into one where I am expected to use generative AI and criticized and quickly fired if I don't. I liked so many aspects of almost any type of work, but I really do not like generative AI, trusting this black box based off of statistical patterns instead of a model of the real world, and if it enters every type of non-manual labor I'll have a shit sandwich to eat at any job I do unless I, delicate little woman who was raised to think I'd be able to have a white collar office job and would never have to earn money with muscles and the literal sweat of my brow, decide to start doing hard manual labor.

    And then even if I wiggle out of it somehow as a white collar worker or find I take well to manual labor, I cannot guarantee my doctor didn't just ChatGPT my symptoms, the bridge I drive over wasn't glued together with nondeterministic predictions from generative AI instead of actual simulations based on fact…

    Extremely unhappy to start life with "you're good at do many things, you'll do great!" only to get the rug pulled right when I start applying with "none of this matters when AI can do it much faster" so quick with little adjustment time. And with "I know I'll enjoy working, most seem interesting, and I have diverse skills in case something happens to one industry, how lucky am I" to dreading when it starts to become the daily AI-prompting slog and I have the "daily grind" "ugh when does it end" everyone else does, or when I'm just totally cut out entirely unless I am willing to work my body instead of my brain. And so I have a vested interest in AI not becoming normalized or endorsed or approved by people lots of others listen to like Linus Torvalds. Because it is happening, all I have is sadness and anxiety for when work starts being prompt engineering.

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  • [–] 4 points 3 months ago

    Lmao I'm in the same boat as you. I'm a recent-ish CS grad with no job and vibe coding (or cuck coding as I like to call it) sucks the joy out of every part of CS to the point where I've considered going back to college to get a different degree.

    Also, I've actually worked a manual labor job before and am fully aware of how shit they are. Very underpaid and unappreciated work imo.

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  • [–] -2 points 3 months ago (18 children)
  • [–] 15 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    Artisans own their tools, that's what makes them artisans (rather than wage workers). I believe after the bubble pops there will be legitimate uses for the tech, and we'll be able to run a pretty good iteration in our own hardware, but as it is now I'm uncomfortable with my employer having the power to decide whether I have the tools they want me to use for the job, whereas with code that's less of a concern.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (2 children)

    There's already pretty decent open weight models that you can run on your own hardware. They won't be as fast as the models running in a datacenter but they will get the job done while not adding more money to the garbage fire that is 'The AI Industry'.

    I don't think that the future of AI is as a massive subscription service industry, that is just rampant capitalism on full display (with all of the damage that it causes).

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  • [–] 4 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    I was thinking more that lots of people don't have the hardware required to begin with, and it's really hard to purchase now (especially in poorer countries like mine), hopefully memory prices will come down at some point after the bubble bursts so we can afford shit

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago

    It's really a race between the AI bubble bursting and hardware manufacturers building more production to chase the higher prices.

    One of China's largest chip producers is building several new fabs and their domestic fabs (i.e. ones not made by ASML) are capable of producing DDR5. Once this price shock ends I wouldn't be surprised to see hardware prices drop to below levels they were pre-2020.

    What we're seeing is the effect of companies having hundreds of billions of dollars in cash on hand and all deciding to dump it into computer hardware at the same time. They can't burn capital forever and AI isn't remotely what they're selling it as so they're finding a hard time generating any meaningful revenue. All they're doing is shoveling money to hardware manufacturers, who will use it to build out extra capacity and once the spending frenzy ends we'll have way more supply than demand.

    Of course, given how much money is floating around, that could be 5 years from now.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (5 children)
  • [–] 0 points 3 months ago (4 children)

    I didn't say that she didn't say that they didn't.

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  • [+] -5 points 3 months ago (7 children)
  • [–] -3 points 3 months ago (6 children)

    This 'ad hominem' really shines the light on just how toxic anti-AI people are.

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  • [+] 2 points 3 months ago (4 children)
  • [–] 0 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    Are you naturally an asshole or do you just enjoy fighting strawmen on the Internet?

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  • [+] 1 point 3 months ago (2 children)
  • [–] 0 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    No, it is you that likes AI. I can't believe you support datacenters being built in endangered habitats, you're such an bad person to be carrying water for AI. How does Sam Altman's butthole taste?

    Oh, did I just make up shit about you and insult you using this fabricated information? What an ignorant thing to do on the Internet. Don't you agree, AI lover?

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  • [–] 13 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (6 children)

    AI is a tool, just like other tools we use.

    This argument has, to me, always reeked of naivety. Heroin is a tool, but it has clear ethical implications, and we make attempts as a society to manage those. So is nuclear, and a particularly relevant one, since many leading AI figures have officially and explicitly stated AI is as dangerous as nuclear weapons. There are countless other examples of "tools" that require moral judgement (all of them, really).

    I think Linus is being naive, and given his position of power, irresponsible.

    And no, AI isn't perfect.

    I could write an essay about how much of an understatement, to the point of being wrong, this is. Many, far more capable than me, already have.

    This is NOT some kind of "social warrior" project, never has been, and never will be.

    No, of course it's not, but he seems to be treating it like ethics and context are for children.

    It makes me worried for the Linux project. Not that he's willing to use AI, but that this is how he sees it. This is a learning experience for me.

    I'm reminded of this quote that, to be honest I don't really understand, but feels relevant

    Our conventional response to all media, namely that it is how they are used that counts, is the numb stance of the technological idiot. For the 'content' of a medium is like the juicy piece of meat carried by the burglar to distract the watchdog of the mind...The effects of technology do not occur at the level of opinions or concepts, but alter sense ratios or patterns of perception steadily and without any resistance.

    -- Marshall McLuhan, Understanding Media

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  • [–] 4 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    The effects of technology do not occur at the level of opinions or concepts, but alter sense ratios or patterns of perception steadily and without any resistance.

    This is a nice one.
    And I see it happening right in front of my eyes at work. 'How it is used' will defer by the individual and specially for new tools, there will always be a generation of suffering.
    Project Management, Jira/scrum etc had one (I'd say, still ongoing for most workplaces, that haven't figured out the correct match). This one will too; probably more of it.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (2 children)

    oh I thought this "one generation of suffering" only happens in me country! It happens in here for non technical stuff. When some new stuff gets widespread in me country for the first time, a lot of people misuse or abuse it. An example is telephone. Another is Internet itself. And lately, coffee has become widespread in here(Iran) and people don't know when to have an espresso and how many espressos per day is fine. There was a guy "I take 5-6 espressos per day and I'm fine".

    In a similar way, many people spend too much time on social media rather than doing something productive.

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  • [–] 0 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    There was a doctor who said to me, "computer games can be addictive". This was after I told her I play games, so she was pretty much implying that I was getting addicted. This was when I hadn't played for over a month due to lack of time from my 9 to 6:30 job.
    The same doctor bragged about how she couldn't go about her day without drinking coffee right after waking up.

    She said those 2 things within the same 5 minutes.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    Friendly reminder that many drugs like heroin and morphin can be life savers if used correctly. Either directly or by changing some of its chemicals. For instance, when people have heavy surgeries, morphin is a life saver to evade the insane pain. Needless to say that many of such these or a production of them are used as meds for mental illnesses.

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  • [–] 18 points 3 months ago* (14 children)

    I personally think both pro LLM and anti LLM are wrong. One group think they are gods. The other think they are demons. LLMs can be useful for programming to some extent. But they will create a disaster if you don't know what are you doing. I have recently published a post about the matter on me blog. I think the best part is:

    I strongly believe that LLMs are useful for programming to some extent. Imagine you have a shop and you get a robot to do the moves for you. So you instead focus on the main business concerns.

    So if you want to make some changes to the code which don't require intelligence, that is they are just mechanical tasks, LLMs are good. If you want the LLMs to understand semantics of your code, you have chosen the wrong tool. Maybe in future we'll have new AI software and tools which also understand semantics to some extent. But I highly doubt a transformer will be able to do it. They just predict the next likely token.

    There is something I haven't yet added to the post. So I am writing it here. Our computers are Universal Turing Machines. There are some fundamental limits to what a turing machine can't do. Those are called undecidable problems. For instance a turing machine can never check if two pieces of code are semantically equivalent[1]. But that's what human programmers can do. That's why I emphasize on tasks which require no intelligence.

    [1] That's about the general case. Sure there are exceptions. But as we say "exception is not the rule".

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    LLMs can program, to some extent. But (not having read your linked post) you only focus on its capabilities, not its implications beyond "can it do the task?".

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago

    Currently I'm not using any LLM. I want to have it locally and haven't found a time to launch it yet. But I am not interested about their current state, but also their future state. Surrounded by a big hype "LLMs will replace human programmers", I want to emphasize what an LLM is fundamentally not capable of, no matter how much advanced and how many billion billion of parameters.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    But that’s what human programmers can do

    I don't think humans can solve the undecidable problems. If I understand them correctly, they're like a law of nature; extends into mathematics, logic, and any formal system (e.g. Godel's Incompleteness Theorem).

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

    I didn't mean humans can solve ALL undecidable problems. As I have written in me reply to wicked, a programmer usually writes loops and the turing machine cannot decide their halting, for a vast majority of them.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (5 children)

    Most of the "undecidable" are only undecidable for a subset of the problem instances, while a vast number of instances can be even trivially decidable. For example in the undecidable halting problem, both you and a computer can trivially deduce that while(true) will not halt. In the same way a computer can deduce that many instances of two pieces of code are semantically equivalent.

    I'd like to see an instance of the problem where a human could decide it and the computer could not.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (4 children)

    Hey. The number of problems which can are decidable are infinite as are those which are not. But as soon as there is a backward jump in your code, a Turing machine most likely won't be able to decide if it'll halt or not. The while(true) is an exception. In the real world we have a great number of programs whose loops cannot be decided by a Turing machine. But the programmer who has written the code knows when the loop will terminate.

    If we see the machine code, if there is a conditional backward jump(unlike while(true) which is unconditional), in the general case it's undecidable.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (3 children)

    Backwards jumps are equally decidable for turing machines as for humans. Compiler and static code linters can trace through very complicated code and know that it will or will not halt, and optimize or warn based on the result.

    I believe there's nothing special about human computation abilities. Anything that is decidable by a human will be also decidable by a computer.

    Please prove me wrong by showing a counter example.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (2 children)

    I don't have to prove anything to anyone. Nor I've got the time for this. It's up to you to do your research. I have done mine and shared the results. You can take it or leave it.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 child)

    I admit I may be wrong so I asked you to show me an example, since you talk with such certainty.

    In fact this is an open question so nobody knows, even though most of the researchers believe human computation is equal as far as I know.

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  • [–] 0 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    Yes! And the problem with decidability is you don't which problem will be undecidable. You can only just try and they it's like "well couldn't find a solution, so it might be undecidable". So we'll need to put limits on how many tokens an AI should use before giving up, put limits on what it tries to do or we'll be burning thousands of dollars on tokens and coming up with nothing. There will need to be a lot of judgement used on where we apply the algorithm.

    Judging when to use an algorithm and when not to use an algorithm based around how expensive it will be in terms of resources? That's just another day for a software engineer.

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  • [–] 0 points 3 months ago

    You have a valid point. I think currently there are assists which we know an LLM definitely can do for us. Like mechanical tasks. And tasks which we know LLM can never do. In between there is a gray area. I think we will learn about the gray area over time.

    Also I would like automatic generation of programs. But I don't think an LLM is the last stop for it. I personally research in the field of Genetic Programming. I strongly believe in future we could have tools which generate or optimize programs when guided by a human. Currently we have Evolutionary Art and Music which do the same. Tho they are far from being actually usable, this is the same with every technology in the beginning.

    Also see this talk: https://cr.yp.to/talks/2015.04.16/slides-djb-20150416-a4.pdf

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    Once again, Linus steps in and delivers a reasonable take that cuts through the whole argument. It's hard to imagine what Linux culture will be like without him.

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  • linus and being a stupid dipshit tech bro name a more iconic duo

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  • [–] 0 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    The discussion should stay technical.

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  • [–] 10 points 3 months ago

    Restricting discourse to a single realm makes it by definition a monoculture, which then intrinsically debases it to a fragile and brittle construct.

    LLMs may well be useful and/or effective from narrowly myopic perspectives, but I’m yet to identify any which could legitimately be framed as justifiable or ethical.

    It’s particularly galling given a fundamental aspect of how LLMs function is to incorporate myriad dimensions of input, yet to arrive at anything resembling a defence requires cherry picking arguments.

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