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Linux creator Linus Torvalds puts foot down on anti-AI comments (www.gamingonlinux.com)
submitted 3 months ago by to c/linux@programming.dev
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[–] 40 points 3 months ago (29 children)

Human written code these days feels equivalent to a unique and soulful artisan made item whereas AI code is like a soulless and defected factory made imitation. I'd much, much, much, rather support artisans over factory made slop and even before AI, artisan work has been well known to be significantly higher quality than factory made stuff. For something as foundational and important as a kernel, I really think AI has no place in it.

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  • [–] 26 points 3 months ago (7 children)

    All I care about is whether it works and is secure. Bonus points for cheaper and faster development. If artisan code gets us there, sure. If AI code gets us there, great. I trust Linus to know what works and what doesn't.

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  • [–] 10 points 3 months ago (5 children)

    I suppose the big issue for me is that I'm also an artist and I view code similarly, especially when I combine code with my graphics. I understand though that with a large project you are going to have some amount of people using AI even if you try to filter them out, so I can partially understand his stance. However I really disagree with him when he says it's a useful tool, given how AI causes brain rot, productivity losses, and environmental destruction.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (4 children)

    As for productivity losses and environmental destruction, that's sort of what I was referring to when I said "bonus points for cheaper and faster development". The environmental destruction refers to energy usage. Productivity can be thought of as time usage. If AI can be cheaper than humans in both time and energy, then that's a win.

    There's a related discussion about how the context here is mainly about finding vulnerabilies with AI. And that is one where AI does seem to be faster and cheaper than using humans. Since AI is now finding kernel vulnerabilities that have been lurking there for 15+ years.

    Maybe code generation will get there too.

    As an artist you might also be worried about how AI is trained on copyrighted data. But I personally don't really care about copyright

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    While I am very anti-genAI, I'm much more okay with analytical AI as long as it's not blindly trusted. Technically they don't need an LLM as they could use something smaller and optimized just to find vulnerabilities. I still take issue with ethical and environmental concerns but I think there are solutions to them. We just need to slow down, take the time to do things right, and ditch the whole "move fast and break things" mindset commonly seen in tech, but I doubt that will ever happen.

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  • [–] 0 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    What's your argument against generative AI but not analytical AI? From what I've seen the arguments for/against one also work for the other

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    My viewpoint is that genAI will always cause cognitive decline no matter what however I haven't come across any studies yet about analytical AI also brain rotting people. If it's trained on data with consent from it's owners' and they find a solution to the environmental problems, I'd be fine with it as long as it's used for good purposes.

    This post about AI detecting cancer makes me believe it might be genuinely useful, although of course it can be used for despicable, evil purposes as well.

    Also, humans really like making/designing things. I don't see the point in automating activities that many people love doing. Every time I come across an ad advertising image gen or whatever it just feels so out of touch with humanity.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago

    Fair. I think if somebody gets brainrot from using AI that's their own problem, just like a programmer losing their coding skills after become a product manager. I don't see how that makes AI bad.

    I don't see the point in automating activities that many people love doing.

    Some people like the process, some people like the product. For those who only care about the product, why not let them use AI? Doesn't stop you from enjoying the process.

    I admit that this is getting pretty far from the original discussion though so no worries if you'd rather end it here. I just have fun thinking about these things

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 child)

    In the past all you had was human-made so this distinction wasn't even a thing.

    I'm just very bitter that people will probably be made to use AI. Coding, as it was done before the advent of LLMs, was fun to me. Being a prompt engineer isn't. I hope and pray AI isn't here to stay, but if it is, what I thought would be a career full of doing something I enjoy, is just going to be a boring slog. (I currently took a different job outside of tech over this—I graduated with a CS degree as LLM usage was exploding and getting forced on everyone.) Years wasted prepping for a career I'll never do, but at least nobody can force me to use LLMs in hobby projects.

    But even if I do not code for work, I dread every non-manual job turning into one where I am expected to use generative AI and criticized and quickly fired if I don't. I liked so many aspects of almost any type of work, but I really do not like generative AI, trusting this black box based off of statistical patterns instead of a model of the real world, and if it enters every type of non-manual labor I'll have a shit sandwich to eat at any job I do unless I, delicate little woman who was raised to think I'd be able to have a white collar office job and would never have to earn money with muscles and the literal sweat of my brow, decide to start doing hard manual labor.

    And then even if I wiggle out of it somehow as a white collar worker or find I take well to manual labor, I cannot guarantee my doctor didn't just ChatGPT my symptoms, the bridge I drive over wasn't glued together with nondeterministic predictions from generative AI instead of actual simulations based on fact…

    Extremely unhappy to start life with "you're good at do many things, you'll do great!" only to get the rug pulled right when I start applying with "none of this matters when AI can do it much faster" so quick with little adjustment time. And with "I know I'll enjoy working, most seem interesting, and I have diverse skills in case something happens to one industry, how lucky am I" to dreading when it starts to become the daily AI-prompting slog and I have the "daily grind" "ugh when does it end" everyone else does, or when I'm just totally cut out entirely unless I am willing to work my body instead of my brain. And so I have a vested interest in AI not becoming normalized or endorsed or approved by people lots of others listen to like Linus Torvalds. Because it is happening, all I have is sadness and anxiety for when work starts being prompt engineering.

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  • [–] 4 points 3 months ago

    Lmao I'm in the same boat as you. I'm a recent-ish CS grad with no job and vibe coding (or cuck coding as I like to call it) sucks the joy out of every part of CS to the point where I've considered going back to college to get a different degree.

    Also, I've actually worked a manual labor job before and am fully aware of how shit they are. Very underpaid and unappreciated work imo.

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  • [–] -2 points 3 months ago (18 children)

    Even artisans use tools.

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  • [–] 15 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    Artisans own their tools, that's what makes them artisans (rather than wage workers). I believe after the bubble pops there will be legitimate uses for the tech, and we'll be able to run a pretty good iteration in our own hardware, but as it is now I'm uncomfortable with my employer having the power to decide whether I have the tools they want me to use for the job, whereas with code that's less of a concern.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 months ago (2 children)

    There's already pretty decent open weight models that you can run on your own hardware. They won't be as fast as the models running in a datacenter but they will get the job done while not adding more money to the garbage fire that is 'The AI Industry'.

    I don't think that the future of AI is as a massive subscription service industry, that is just rampant capitalism on full display (with all of the damage that it causes).

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  • [–] 4 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    I was thinking more that lots of people don't have the hardware required to begin with, and it's really hard to purchase now (especially in poorer countries like mine), hopefully memory prices will come down at some point after the bubble bursts so we can afford shit

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago

    It's really a race between the AI bubble bursting and hardware manufacturers building more production to chase the higher prices.

    One of China's largest chip producers is building several new fabs and their domestic fabs (i.e. ones not made by ASML) are capable of producing DDR5. Once this price shock ends I wouldn't be surprised to see hardware prices drop to below levels they were pre-2020.

    What we're seeing is the effect of companies having hundreds of billions of dollars in cash on hand and all deciding to dump it into computer hardware at the same time. They can't burn capital forever and AI isn't remotely what they're selling it as so they're finding a hard time generating any meaningful revenue. All they're doing is shoveling money to hardware manufacturers, who will use it to build out extra capacity and once the spending frenzy ends we'll have way more supply than demand.

    Of course, given how much money is floating around, that could be 5 years from now.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (5 children)

    OP didn't say they didn't

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  • [–] 0 points 3 months ago (4 children)

    I didn't say that she didn't say that they didn't.

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  • [+] -5 points 3 months ago (7 children)
    [deleted]
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  • [–] -3 points 3 months ago (6 children)

    This 'ad hominem' really shines the light on just how toxic anti-AI people are.

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  • [+] 2 points 3 months ago (4 children)
    [deleted]
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  • [–] 0 points 3 months ago (3 children)

    Are you naturally an asshole or do you just enjoy fighting strawmen on the Internet?

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  • [+] 1 point 3 months ago (2 children)
    [deleted]
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  • [–] 0 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    No, it is you that likes AI. I can't believe you support datacenters being built in endangered habitats, you're such an bad person to be carrying water for AI. How does Sam Altman's butthole taste?

    Oh, did I just make up shit about you and insult you using this fabricated information? What an ignorant thing to do on the Internet. Don't you agree, AI lover?

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