Existential Comics | Website

Alt Text“At the heart of Batman’s being, like all theater kids, is a boundless narcissism that eats away at his core.”

ExplanationMany versions of Batman have a strict “no killing” rule, which is exactly the kind of intuition the Trolley Problem is attacking. Why is it different to actively kill someone vs passively letting five people die? In particular, Batman’s version seems to be a sort of “honor code”, which something close to a moral system, but it is entirely inward looking. In other words, fulfilling the honor system doesn’t do good for the world, it elevates the status of the honorable man. In a sense it’s the worst possible way to answer a moral question, “I want to kill the five people because I personally would lose something (my honor)”. Also its pretty showy to dress up as a bat. One might even call him a weirdo.

Transcript8 Panel Comic

Panel 1: The Riddler stands at the lever explaining his setup of the classic Trolley Problem. Tied to one track are 5 people, and tied to the diverted track is 1 person. A trolley is prepared to mow down the 5 people unless the lever is pulled, diverting it to the path with one person.

Riddler: Alright Batman riddle me this. A trolley is moving down this track and is going to kill five people, but if you switch tracks it will only kill one, do you pull the lever?

Panel 2: Batman shakes his fist at the Riddler

Batman: Curse your implausible games, Riddler!

Panel 3: Batman hesitates in front of the lever, his hand shaking.

Batman: The right thing to do is save five people, but I have sworn to my code of ethics to never kill!

Panel 4: The Riddler exults in the devious dilemma delaying Batman’s decision.

Batman: I cannot do it! I cannot be the one to kill directly!

Riddler: Looks like the Batman has failed Philosophy 101! HAHAHAHAHA!

Panel 5: Batman watches as the trolley splatters 5 people across the track as the Riddler continues in his exultations.

Panel 6: Batman now sits in his Batcave as his Alfred arrives with his dinner on a covered tray.

Alfred: But what I don’t understand Sir, is how upholding your moral code can have more value than their lives?

Panel 7: Batman smoking a cigarette puts on his best grizzled and hard boiled face.

Batman: Because I’m a narcissist, Alfred. I value my own ego above everything, and I didn’t want to lose the “no killing” thing, because I like bragging about it. That’s all.

Panel 8: Alfred is shocked at Batman’s response.

Alfred: Really, I never thought so…

Batman: I dress up as a bat to fight crime. Of course I’m a narcissist. Your kind of a moron, Alfred, honestly.

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[–] 24 points 23 hours ago (16 children)

Jason Todd was right about Batman and the Joker. For the graveyards that Joker has filled, and his tendency to keep escaping, Joker should just fucking die.

Problem is, Todd didn't do it. Instead he tried proving a point to Wayne and got his ass kicked.

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  • [–] 5 points 17 hours ago (7 children)

    Todd didn't do it. Instead he tried proving a point to Wayne and got his ass kicked.

    Was that the storyline where the Joker brainwashed him or was that a different Robin?

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  • [–] 8 points 15 hours ago* (last edited 14 hours ago) (3 children)

    Depends on the timeline. There is one comic series where Jason does actually kill Joker.

    But what most people tend to think of is Under the Red Hood from 2010, where Jason is kidnapped and beaten by the Joker in the beginning before supposedly murdered. He survives in secret, returns as the Red Hood, and at a confrontation with Batman discusses how he's upset that Joker could kill him and that Bruce refuses to kill the Joker in return.

    It's a common theme. In another timeline one iteration of Selina leaves Bruce because he was willing to risk their lives to save the Riddler despite how he was entirely responsible for the situation that got himself killed.

    You know who does kill Joker in a lot of timelines though? Superman. He usually ends up going a bit authoritarian afterwards but Bruce will even admit in some of those situations that Joker's death is necessary.

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  • [–] 4 points 14 hours ago (1 child)

    You know who does kill Joker in a lot of timelines though? Superman. He usually ends up going a bit authoritarian afterwards

    I really liked the Injustice arc

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  • [–] 4 points 14 hours ago

    Injustice was really solid as long as you focus on the main cast. I do think a lot of people were disappointed with how Damian was handled.

    There's also the Justice Lords, where Batman reluctantly complies with Superman's regime and where Superman's preferred method of punishment is lobotomizing villains.

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  • [–] 1 point 6 hours ago

    Unironically, Injustice was good until Chapter 5(?) Where Superman and WW show up to forcibly break up a protest against their actions

    Up until then they were doing actual good. But of course every story has to go "absolute power corrupts" OT whatever and before you know it

    SpoilerSuperman becomes a Yellow Lantern to McGuffin him surviving getting shot with a Kryptonite bullet, and his half of the JLA still support him unconditionally

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  • [–] 4 points 16 hours ago (2 children)

    That was Tim Drake, Robin #3.

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  • [–] 2 points 15 hours ago (1 child)

    What did Todd do in the story you mentioned?

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  • [–] 8 points 15 hours ago*

    Jason Todd got killed by the Joker by way of repeated contact with a crowbar and a close encounter with some explosives.

    Ras Al Guhl for some reason decided to revive him in the Lazarus Pit. It didn't go so well as Jason's mind was a little broken at first and he ran off.

    Some years go by and he eventually learns Joker is still alive, still killing people, and Batman Just keeps throwing him in Arkham.

    So, Jason creates a plot to get the attention of both the Joker and Batman by taking up Joker's old persona; The Red Hood. Joker is going to get very intrigued by someone masquerading as something from his past, and Batman will get involved because he's Batman.

    The end goal was to force Batman in a situation where he'd be forced to kill the Joker. A situation where either Batman kills the Joker, or he does it himself.

    Batman of course ends up defending the Joker and saving him from Jason.

    Edit: writing this entirely from memory, so there might be some bent details.

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  • [+] -6 points 22 hours ago (7 children)

    Yeah, batman should really get in the habit of doing extrajudicial executions. Bypass this psychopath's right to due process under the law and just kill him. And why stop at the Joker? Every masked supervillain should just get executed. Hell, why stop at the masks? Their henchmen knew what they signed up for, why not kill them too? Wouldn't the world be so much nicer if we simply killed everyone who threatened to kill people?

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  • [–] 10 points 19 hours ago (5 children)

    Dude, it's the Joker. You're completely missing the point. Even Jason Todd in the comics said "Just this guy, just this ONE guy you know will kill 5 to 10 people every time he escapes".

    Even Killer Croc, despite his name, doesn't have such a kill count.

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  • [–] 0 points 14 hours ago* (4 children)

    Literally, why stop at the Joker? Other guys don't have as high of a kill count, but once The Joker Is dead, one of them is going to be the new kill leader. The exact same argument for killing the Joker also applies to whoever's in first place after he dies.

    I think you are the one who misses the point. You and I know that the Joker will escape from Arkham and kill again, but Batman doesn't. Even if Gotham PD is extremely corrupt, even if it's possible for convicts to escape Arkham asylum, Batman has to believe that it is possible for justice to be served, because if he stops believing that then he'll become the most prolific mass murderer in history.

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  • [–] 0 points 13 hours ago (3 children)

    There is an ocean of difference between your average serial killer and the amount of people Joker has single-handedly killed. Every argument about morality of killing someone just doesn't work if you're arguing about the Joker.

    And yes, Batman absolutely does know this. But he has personal issues that are so deeply fucked up he'll literally save Joker from death if someone else tries to do what he can't.

    I will argue Batman is already a mass murderer, by virtue of not killing the Joker.

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  • [–] 1 point 12 hours ago (2 children)

    I love when y'all try to lemmysplain Batman to me, as if you've ever read any of the comics or watched any of the shows or movies or know anything about the character outside of these circlejerks on the internet. Next you're going to tell me that Bruce Wayne could do a lot better for Gotham if he simply opened up free medical clinics and homeless shelters and started jobs programs, right?

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  • [–] 6 points 11 hours ago*

    Its a legitimate complaint, but we are also talking about an 80+ yr old charector, so there are endless iterations of what could be right and what could be wrong for him to do, since hes done so much to so many.

    Also, Gotham has an ancient unfathomable curse, so it can't ever be "good," no matter how much money Wanyetech pours into it.

    Then again, maybe Superman boy can PUNCH FUCKING REALITY again and make every arguement irrelevant till they wrap around again.

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  • [–] -1 points 4 hours ago

    Um. Yes. You know Batman the Animated Series?

    Also watched Justice League Unlimited. Read some pretty good early 2000s comics. You have no idea who you're talking to.

    Next you're going to tell me that Bruce Wayne could do a lot better for Gotham if he simply opened up free medical clinics and homeless shelters and started jobs programs, right?

    Except Bruce Wayne is actually doing this. The Nolan movies don't show much of that, and neither the animated movies, but he is actually trying to buy up plots and build shelters, clinics, and schools.

    Emphasis on "try", because the corruption goes so deep in Gotham there is a whole court of rich people with a vested interest in keeping Gotham the way it is.

    You would know if you've read anything from batman outside of these "circlejerks on the Internet".

    I love when y'all try to lemmysplain Batman to me

    Clearly it's necessary.

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  • [–] 4 points 19 hours ago*

    Batman is a detective. That’s his thing. World’s Greatest Detective. He’s not just assuming anyone’s guilt. It’s also entirely possible to be willing to kill some people for very specific reasons and criteria without then deciding it’s OK to just start killing anyone you consider to be a criminal. Also, Batman exists specifically because the justice system in Gotham is broken, the police force is corrupt, and he feels the people need a real protector. An appeal to authority is situationally blind.

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