78
[Vent] I hate how many cis "allies" clearly don't actually see trans people as their gender. (piefed.blahaj.zone)
submitted 4 days ago by to c/mtf@lemmy.blahaj.zone
44 comments fedilink hide all child comments
 

I saw a post earlier (not on the fediverse), about a trans woman who had a date with a cis man who was pretty clearly into her, fliriting and stuff, but then as soon as she told him she was trans the guy immediately acted different, said he wasn't into her and just wanted to be friends, etc. The poster was obviously upset by that and was trying to vent about it online in a women's community who claim to be trans inclusive, but so many of the replies were about how he wasn't transphobic, how he was such a good guy for giving her the bare minimum respect after learning she was trans, how its not transphobic to not be attracted to trans people, etc. That's also not even what the poster was saying, she just wanted support after a shitty date, something which the community is perfectly capable of doing when a cis woman is seeking it.

But also like the guy was attracted to her! He just immediately changed his mind upon learning she was trans, which is literally just transphobia, holy shit. And almost all the supportive people in the comments or anyone saying that were getting piled on.

I already know the majority of cis people don't see us as actually being our gender/sex, but it still fucking sucks everytime I see something like that that reminds me of that fact so starkly.

Edit: The number of cis people coming in to this thread and doing the exact same fucking thing I'm complaning about in this post is wild holy shit. Like congrats on not having any ability to read the room l guess lmao.

you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] 6 points 4 days ago (20 children)

I hope this doesn’t come off as argumentative, as that is not how it’s meant, but the way I see it, it wasn’t that he didn’t like her, or was transphobic, it’s just that he has preferences. This isn’t a crime. We all have preferences. Be they height, weight, cultural, tradition, what-have-you… this doesn’t make us anti-things outside of our prefered choices.

For example: I like pumpkins. Love them as decorations, I think they’re pretty, I know they’re heathy as a food and good for nature, however… I don’t like to eat them at all. I don’t like the texture of pumpkin pie, I don’t like the flavor at all. It’s just not to my taste.

Am I anti-pumpkin? Not even in the slightest.

The point is, from what you said, he was kind to her, and wasn’t offended or being offensive TO her, he just wasn’t into her situation at all.

Maybe this helps to understand it better?

Again, absolutely no offense intended.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • hideshow 20 child comments
    •
  • [–] [S] 10 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (11 children)

    But what about "being trans" can immediately make someone less attractive? Nothing about her physically changed, other than her revealing a medical detail about her past pretty much. It wasn't about her not being able to get pregnant since the date didn't mention that as a reason why, and there's no indication of whether or not the girl had any kind of bottom surgery.

    Edit: Also check out this other comment in the thead for a more detailed answer, I assumed you were that person responding at first so I treated my reply as basically a follow-up meaning its not as fleshed out.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 11 child comments
    •
  • [–] -2 points 4 days ago (10 children)

    Regarding the edit: That’s totally fair. I understand.

    As far as the rest. Yeah. I see the point. However, I don’t think it was that he thought of her as less attractive, just outside of his wheelhouse. Take for example, my point about preferences, someone can be into people taller than them. It’s their thing. So if they need soomeome shorter, they may still find said person gorgeous, but the height is a deal-breaker.

    With this, it might just be that he doesn’t wan to be with someone that was once the same gender as him. We really can’t know why- but I’d have to agree with a few of the responses- I really don’t think I’d accuse h of being anti-trans. From the info given, he wasn’t offensive or rude, just surprised and kindly backed out.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 10 child comments
    •
  • [–] [S] 9 points 4 days ago (9 children)

    But that feeling of not wanting to be with a person because they're trans is transphobia. He might not be outwardly bigoted, but I'm fairly confident he has some level of internalized transphobia. The only way that sort of thing can happen is to believe that fundamentally trans people are different than cis people of the same gender in a negative way. Like the other comments mentioned, the same thing is true for other marginalized groups. A man going from attracted to a white passing woman into losing that attraction upon realizing she isn't white is because of racism.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 9 child comments
    •
  • [–] 1 point 4 days ago (8 children)

    That’s simply just not true though.

    Transphobia doesn’t mean “refuses to be romantically with tranksfolk”. It means basically that a belief exists that consists of negative attitudes, feelings, or actions towards transgender, or transsexual people, or just transness in general.

    People are not obligated to be in a relationship with a trans person just because they are the preferred gender. Again, they are allowed preferences. And while they can be kind and supportive of transgenderism, they don’t have to include them in their romantic preferences.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 8 child comments
    •
  • [–] [S] 7 points 4 days ago (5 children)

    That's not what I'm saying though, like my response to the other comment said a hypothetical person who has never been attracted to a trans person wouldn't be transphobic. The internalized transphobia comes into play if they are attracted to a trans person, and then lose that attraction once learning they're trans. Those are very different scenarios, and one is transphobic. No trans person is trying to force cis people to date us, that's stupid.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 5 child comments
    •
  • [–] -2 points 4 days ago (4 children)

    It’s not so easy to define though. Gender reassignment has gotten so good that it’s impossible to tell. Which is an amazing thing! However, there are people that have preferences based on criteria they set that determine and influence both who they find attractive, and what situations they are willing to accept in a mate. For instance, I personally don’t like country music. Am I a southphobe? A redneckist? No, but I don’t want to be in a relation with someone that listens to it. It’s not my thing. Yet I am not hateful towards those that enjoy it and in-fact, have many friends that love it.

    Now imagine I’m on a date, and it comes up during dinner that they love country music. It’s going to be a no for me. That doesn’t make me hateful.

    That some people don’t want their mate to have been assigned the same gender as them isn’t transphobia. It’s just a preference. He doesn’t want to deal with her having once been the same gender as him. That is HIS preference. And it is okay. If he is not hateful, or disrespectful, I’d say it’s not transphobia.

    But I’m not the authority on the subject. I’m just trying to add some nuance to the topic. Nothing more.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 4 child comments
    •
  • [–] [S] 9 points 4 days ago* (3 children)

    But what about being trans specifically makes someone potentially less attractive. With country music its a difference in music taste. What fundamental thing do trans people have that causes a loss of attraction. The only thing you keep saying is because of their asab. That's what's transphobic, it is treating a trans person as different than a cis person because of the fact they're trans.

    IDK what else I can say to drive home the fact that seeing a trans person as unattractive because of how they were assigned at birth is just a woke way of saying they aren't really their gender, which is the most basic type of transphobia.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 3 child comments
    •
  • [–] 0 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (2 children)

    You seem to be making “attractive” a catch all for everything that supports your point here.

    At the end of the day, someone can chose to not date a transgender person without being a transphobe. Just like I can chose not to date someone that is 7 feet tall without saying they’re ugly.

    It’s okay to not be into someone for whatever reason you’re not into them. This guy was not obligated to date her from the beginning.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
    •
  • [–] [S] 6 points 4 days ago (1 child)

    Again, no one is saying anyone is obligated to date anyone. I've repeatedly said the opposite this whole time.

    That being said, dating preferences or choosing not to date someone can be rooted in bigotry. Idk if you're arguing the opposite, but dating preferences aren't some thing that's magically immune from being bigoted. As an extreme example, a Nazi could refuse to date any non-aryan and that's obviously because of the fact they're a Nazi. A person could be into Latinas because they fetishize them, that's rooted in bigotry. And a person can refuse to date a trans person because of the fact they're trans and that can be bigoted.

    All the examples you've been giving are things people don't face widespread discrimination for, which makes them not equivalent. And no one said anything about the date calling the girl ugly either?

    But if a person doesn't date a trans person because they're trans they need a really good reason to justify it to make me not assume they have some level of internalized transphobia.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
    •
  • [–] 0 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago)

    Okay. You have clearly made up your mind that this is factually and unarguably transphobic so I’m going to step out of the discussion. It seems, nuance has no place here.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 5 points 3 days ago (7 children)

    In certain contexts, preferences can be bigoted. Some preferences are just preferences, some are bigotry.

    Compare it to race. People can like what they like. It's not bigoted to have a racial dating preferences. But imagine if a white person refused to date another person that was visually white after discovering they have a single black great-grandparent. Visually the person looks white, they've lived their whole life as a white person, but the bigot views them as tainted for not being pure white. That's both a preference and bigotry. The bigotry is the source of their preference. An honest sexual preference can be bigoted.

    For example, it's fine if certain physical features that a trans person has aren't your thing. That could be anything from face to body to genitals. But some cis people refuse to date trans people not out of any specific feature or objective reason, but simply BECAUSE the person is trans. They view transness as a stain upon them.

    There are cis guys out there who would happily date a stealth trans woman, sleep with her, fall in love with her, etc., even after being told she can't have children. Enjoy every aspect of it. But if that same cis guy was told she was trans, suddenly he would be appalled at the idea.

    It's fine to not want to date a trans person because you have a genital preference, or because you want to have biological children. But if the only reason you're not interested in a trans person is because they're trans? I hate to break it to you, but that's just bigotry. Something can be both bigotry and a preference at the same time.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 7 child comments
    •
  • [–] 0 points 3 days ago (6 children)

    That’s not bigotry.

    This is bigotry. Any man or woman trans or otherwise can support, befriend and love anyone of any gender of their choosing. They shouldn’t have to do this under duress of being called something they are not.

    And my examples remained as close to the topic as could be. Yours reached way out of bounds to illustrate your point.

    This isn’t about someone who had a single black great grandparent once way back in history. This is about a person currently, that kihrn have a trait that is u desirable to their preferences in choosing a romantic partner.

    Thus has absolutely nothing to do with bigotry unless we are redefining the word.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 6 child comments
    •
  • [–] [S] 4 points 3 days ago (5 children)

    You are aware that people can interalize bigotry in a way where the person can otherwise be very supportive but still have unconscious biases or unfounded beliefs that only occassionly slip through in specific situations right? That's a major cause of things like micro aggressions or stereotypes that while not necessarily intentional or meant to be harmful are nonetheless, and is something worth examining to hopefully be able to rid yourself of. No-one is trying to force someone to date a trans person here, we're just saying if you blanket would never date a trans person it's probably worth examining your internal biases and beliefs.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 5 child comments
    •
  • [–] 0 points 3 days ago* (4 children)

    Of which, according to your own post, and the content you reference, he did none of those things.

    Regardless of gender, preference, what have you….

    No one is obligated to date you. Period. And if we take this a step further, they’re not even obligated to give you a reason, yet this man did. It wasn’t personal. He wasn’t being disrespectful. Yet- you’ve labeled him the same as someone that is hateful and refuse to budge.

    And based on your edit, where tou assumed everyone gender… you intended this to be an ‘Everyone grab your pitchforks’ style witch-hunt.

    Do better. There’s so little time we have here. Having said this, we can agree to just disageee.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 4 child comments
    •
  • [–] [S] 4 points 3 days ago* (3 children)

    I literally am OP, I know what the post I'm referring to said. I'm saying the person rejected her for a transphobic reason, not that he himself was like a massive raging bigot. Something someone does can be transphobic while not themselves being a transphobe.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 3 child comments
    •
  • [–] 0 points 3 days ago* (2 children)

    And I’m simply saying that I disagree and don’t think it was a transphobic reason. And I do find it ironic that in a post where you complain about a bigot, you assumed everyone’s gender in the comments based on no info whatsoever.

    Apparently if we disagree with you, we are all cis.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
    •
  • [–] [S] 2 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (1 child)

    I never actually called the date a transphobe or a bigot to be clear. I said he did something transphobic, which I stand by, but the point of my post was venting about how when this trans women was trying to complain about her shitty date experience, a bunch of cis women in the replies took the opportunity to soapbox about how dating preferences are valid, rather than comfort her like how they would normally react to a similar post where a girl got dumped in the middle of a date. That was the point of my post, it had almost nothing to do with the date outside of me trying to add context. You came into the comment section to do the same thing I was complaining about the cis people in that post doing. This post was never supposed to be about whether dating preferences are transphobic, I offhandedly mentioned it in 1 line of the original post and only started actually talking about it when like 3 different people came in to "offer nuance" to a discussion I wasn't fucking trying to have! I wasn't the one who started the arguments lmao.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
    •