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[+] -63 points 5 days ago (22 children)

Only after Ukraine started massacring people that didn't want to be part of an American puppet state

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  • [–] 15 points 5 days ago (6 children)
  • [–] 33 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (3 children)

    Clearly refers to War in Donbas.

    Eastern Ukraine is full of ethnic Russians (38%) and Russia-aligned eastern Ukrainians, and so when the central Ukrainian government went through the coup in 2014 and practically severed ties with Russia, many were genuinely unhappy with the government, so much so that they wanted to leave the country.

    Seizing the opportunity, Russian paramilitary entered Crimea first (with Russians being the majority on the peninsula, people's support was practically guaranteed), and then tried to do the same on Donbas.

    Ukrainian government was obviously not happy about this, and already knew what inaction leads to (total Russian annexation) and launched a military campaign to maintain control of Donbas. To many people of Donbas, however, this was seen not as a unification of a country, but as a brutal suppression of people's will, and so locals commonly sided with the local and Russian paramilitary groups in search of independence or ascension into Russia.

    As such, many pro-Russian folks cite this as an act of aggression on the side of Ukraine, one that Russia merely responded to in full in 2022. This sentiment is often supported by Donbas locals, who suffered through severe civilian losses during the 2014-2022 phase of the conflict, many fleeing their home to find refuge in Russia.

    This sentiment is not, however, so enthusiastically shared by the rest of the Ukrainians, who suddenly had this war come to their doorstep, escalating the conflict to an all-out war with 40 million Ukrainians in the crosshairs. And then Russia took the mask off, adding layer upon layer of bullshit explanations as to why the whole of Ukraine should lose statehood and become occupied.

    What started as "we defend these 6 million people, including over 2 million Russians, from an unjustified act of aggression" turned to "we deny 40 million people independence and statehood, and we're ready to destroy everything to have it our way".

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  • [–] 12 points 4 days ago

    Russia's proposal for UN peacekeeping forces in the UN was quite informative.

    On September 5, 2017, the Russian Federation submitted a draft resolution to the UN Security Council (Document S/2017/754) proposing the establishment of a UN support mission.

    ​The details of the motion and its ultimate failure centered around where the peacekeepers would be stationed:

    ​The Russian Proposal: Russia proposed that UN peacekeepers be deployed strictly along the "line of contact" (the frontline) separating Ukrainian government forces and Russian-backed separatists. The stated goal of the resolution was to protect the unarmed observers from the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) who were monitoring the conflict.

    ​The Backlash: Ukraine, the United States, and several European nations rejected the terms of the Russian draft. They argued that placing peacekeepers only on the frontline would effectively freeze the conflict and solidify the borders of the separatist-controlled territories.

    ​Ukraine's Counter-Demand: Ukraine and its allies insisted that any UN peacekeeping force must be deployed throughout the entire Donbas region—most importantly, along the international border between Ukraine and Russia. Monitoring the international border was viewed as critical to stopping the undetected flow of Russian troops, weapons, and supplies to the separatists.

    ​Because of this fundamental disagreement over the scope and location of the mandate, the Russian motion stalled in the Security Council and no UN peacekeeping mission was ever deployed to the Donbas.

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  • [+] -20 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago)

    What started as “we defend these 6 million people, including over 2 million Russians, from an unjustified act of aggression” turned to “we deny 40 million people independence and statehood, and we’re ready to destroy everything to have it our way”.

    you say this like russia has already annexed the whole of ukraine. you cannot be certain of what russia wants until a peace deal is signed. and more accurately, the war was started by the west, and the west benefits most from the continuance of the war. in fact, the ukrainians would have a higher standard of living under russia simply because the west has made ukraine so in debt that the taxes on locals have been onerous, ukraine has been depopulating since. and fun fact, the creditor debt holiday ends in 2027 which will force ukraine to begin paying lavish amounts to the west. we'll see how long the war continues...

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  • [+] -9 points 5 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (1 child)

    ?? this is all living memory shit. are you 12?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Donbas_status_referendums

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Donbas

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan

    they voted to leave after the euromaidan coup. now, the west is pillaging ukraine and making them indebted to the west for possibly hundreds of years. ukrainian citizens will never again have a say in their own country barring an anti-western revolution. also remember that wikipedia on this is very biased towards the western side. you should also consider that for the longest time, donbas and crimea were fighting with only their manpower against ukraine, you have to get all of those people willing to die for a cause somewhere, and it is likely the people that voted for secession in the first place. the ukrainians themselves know the writing is on the wall and have abandoned the country en masse, ukraine now has a population similar to benelux

    and before anyone says these elections were a farce, remember that the demographics of each of these areas are majority russian. is it really so hard to imagine that they would vote to join russia? even before the russian-ukraine war and russia's direct involvement, ukraine outlawed the speaking and teaching of russian, belarusian, and yiddish in its schools, whereas before the coup, russian was granted a minority status. since the war, russian speakers are legally second class citizens. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_policy_in_Ukraine

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  • [–] 12 points 4 days ago (5 children)

    How very Sudetenland of an explanation.

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  • [–] -4 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (4 children)

    If this is so analogous, who is the Soviet Union that offered to defend Czechoslovakia? Who is the Poland that offered to invade with the Nazis? Who is building an anticommunist crusade?

    The goal has always been the same. The west funded the Nazis. The west funded Ukraine. The goal was always to expand the imperialist economic sphere of the west and open up restricted markets. If you can't comprehend this, you're a fucking idiot.

    I would also like to mention that supporting Palestine and supporting Ukraine are dichotomous positions. You cannot support increasing the power of the MIC to help Ukraine, because that will lead to Palestine easily being crushed under the increased power of the MIC.

    And besides, the most obvious analogy is that modern Ukraine is just like Nazi-Occupied Ukraine. Modern Ukraine even adores the OUN and has diplomatic spats with Poland over it, and the EU led by the economic juggernaut Germany has the most to gain from the war being won by Ukraine.

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  • [–] 0 points 4 days ago (3 children)

    Conveniently missing that all the unrest in the Sudetenland was manufactured by Germany as an excuse to invade.

    And even when they got handed a part of it, they still invaded the rest anyway.

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  • [–] 5 points 4 days ago* (1 child)

    tbf no one gets to be the world police. Making that a justification is how US also does it to invade Iran (even though it is baseless claim).

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  • [–] -1 points 4 days ago

    You're saying that no one should play world police, but the reality is someone is by couping the Ukrainian government during Euromaidan. You are tacitly supporting the world police by shaming groups that effectively interdict them.

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  • [–] -3 points 4 days ago (6 children)

    And why exactly hasn't Russia intervened to prevent this massacre? Why did Russia let it happen?

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  • [–] 4 points 4 days ago (5 children)

    They did and people have been slaving their ukranis about it for four years

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  • [–] -4 points 3 days ago (4 children)

    They did when the massacre stopped. Russian just waited through 2014-2016 doing nothing to prevent it

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  • [–] 3 points 3 days ago* (3 children)

    I mean you can just say shit if you want, but here in reality the shelling from Ukraine into Donbas intensified like threefold in the two weeks leading up to the "start" of the war. The massacre stopped when the Russian army rolled in. There was an ongoing hexbesr megathread about it in the weeks before, because unlike liberals communists have pattern recognition and object permanence, and therefore have no need to just vibe out and make things up to support whatever argument we're trying to make at the time. We were paying attention to this shit while you guys were at brunch.

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  • [–] -5 points 3 days ago (1 child)

    I don't care about 2022 itt. I asked you about 2014-2016 and you replied with some apologetic nonsense.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 days ago*

    You didn't ask about shit. You made a vague claim easily disproven, got flustered when i had an actual answer, and now you're pretending you had something specific and not made up and vibes-based to say.

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