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[–] 13 points 2 weeks ago (5 children)

Nobody says you have to abandon close friends that have made huge mistakes, you can help them through it while recognizing their faults - as long as they are doing the healthy thing in admitting culpability and working on positive ways forward.

What is generally ill-advised is telling the world that you are just going to ignore the mistakes or pretend they didn't happen so thay you can keep hanging with your deeply-flawed buddy. That shit's just unhealthy for all involved.

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  • [–] 15 points 2 weeks ago (1 child)

    I can speak from experience here - one of our friend group, we'd been good friends for years without red flags that any of us noticed, was very credibly accused of rape, and we believed the victim's story. None of us are still friends with the rapist any more. This is a good thing. Don't remain friends with "friends that have made huge mistakes" if those "mistakes" have permanently traumatized victims and the "friend" turns out to be a fucking predator. That's what we're talking about under a Marilyn Manson story, not a "could happen to anyone" forgivable mistake.

    That was aimed at your first paragraph. I agree with your second paragraph.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

    Yes, absolutely there are limits, and you have to weigh your personal investment and history with the friend and if it's something you even want to (or can) move on from if they change.

    I don't know much about the Manson or Corgan stories, I was just responding to the question of 'well what happens when these people lose all their friends, is that going to help them learn and grow?'.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 week ago (2 children)

    I stuck with a friend despite him serially cheating on his wife, a mutual friend. I kept telling him to get a divorce and I didn't celebrate his conquests. I thought he was maybe working through some things and might have needed someone to talk to.

    I know that men in particular be very good friends to other men but eventually you learn they have problem considering women fully human, and then what do you with that after knowing someone for years? Especially when they were outwardly following the social scripts of acceptability.

    Everyone draws lines around who they consider their tribe--whether it's politics, race, gender, class... if you're inside that tribe with someone, you don't recognize their lines until maybe later, and even then it just seems kind of weird and abstract because it doesn't effect you, and you know the person for the compassionate qualities they've shown to you and others in the tribe.

    Is there a way to bring that person into the light by being a friend? Or if they are just going to withdraw more into a reactive hatred and tribal grievance if they are abandoned?

    I eventually ended the relationship with my friend when it was clear he was just a self-centered asshole emotionally manipulating me for his own social comfort to feel less alone. Looking at Russel Brand from the outside, I wonder if he's capable of being a good friend to anyone, even people he considers as part of his tribe.

    And maybe my framing of in-tribe and out-tribe is naïve, a bit Polly Anna. Maybe the reality is that all these people are just assholes and if you could step outside the circle of their enchantment, you would be able to see that more clearly. Maybe moments like these are what should break the spell.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 week ago (1 child)

    Ive watched so many friends fall. I used to try and help in my youth. Now I burn bridges like it's the only option. Id rather not have friends then be surround by folks who dont carry respect of lifeforms outside themselves. .. or dont respect themselves not to get stepped on by the former type. I actually cant deal with it.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 week ago

    I guess it's a question of if they are being tribal or if they are really truly just self centered.

    My girlfriend is Fox-news watching Trump voter. She never talks politics with me and she treats everyone well, regardless of race. It's a weirdly compartmentalized thing, but it does make me uneasy.

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