▲ 42 ▼ Can someone fill me in on the ziq-anark drama? (lemmy.dbzer0.com) submitted 2 weeks ago by A404@lemmy.dbzer0.com to c/anarchism@lemmy.dbzer0.com 73 comments fedilink hide all child comments Source: https://raddle.me/f/Anarchy/217949/the-anark-led-badjacketing-campaign-has-started-because-i
[–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 2 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (39 children) Did you even bother to look up the context of this excerpt? cc @comrade_spood@quokk.au @deme@sopuli.xyz permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 39 child comments replies: [–] g00ber@sh.itjust.works 2 points 1 week ago (16 children) Yeah I'm not debating the utility of prisons with an anark fan. It's a direct quote and you can agree with Anark's opinion or not, but disagreeing with it is not grounds to copjacket people using AI slop. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 16 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (15 children) Nowhere have I stated I am a fan of anyone here. I am exposing contexts you and comrade_spood@quokk.au seem to be omitting off your excerpts. I quoted the whole essays, with contexts provided. disagreeing with it is not grounds to copjacket people using AI slop. what are you talking about, David's article‽ permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 15 child comments replies: [–] g00ber@sh.itjust.works 3 points 1 week ago (14 children) "David" is an AI slop bot that generated nonsense that has been shown to be nonsense, stop linking to it and spreading the copjacket. There's no lower form of life than a copjacketer. The context doesn't magically change prisons into not-prisons. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 14 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 0 points 1 week ago (13 children) While we do use these tools in research, nothing here is published without human editorial oversight and source verification; be aware full OSINT reports will nevertheless contain generated material. News articles, and editorials published by Crawlspace Analysis are written by humans , with human editors , and sources are verified to the best of the team’s ability.. Let's assume you're right, David’s article is slop. Ziq’s authoritarianism is blatantly reviewable in the Internet Archive. That includes his copjacketing ban messages. The context doesn’t magically change prisons into not-prisons. How do you then reform wrong doers? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 13 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 1 week ago (12 children) Being an admin of a website no one visits isn't authoritarianism. Stop using phrases incorrectly, it dilutes their meaning. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 12 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (11 children) Sure, masturbation isn't authoritarianism. But ziq keeps shilling his website, so, there’s more to this than humiliation kinks. What is banishment and narrative control called again? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 11 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 1 week ago (10 children) You have to touch grass, the world is bigger than the internet. Talk to your neighbors, make friends. Soon you'll realize a website is no important, what's important are the connections we make in the real world. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (9 children) I do plenty of bloc praxis. Why are you demanding I do more when you can't even define basic authoritarian praxis? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 9 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 1 week ago (8 children) I know you're quizing me to make yourself feel better, nerd. I didn't say make praxis, i said make friends, talk to people in your community, touch grass. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (7 children) nerd make friends, talk to people in your community called solidarity touch grass called ecobombing, planting, growing food, Anything more insults to add exclusionary campist? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 1 week ago (6 children) Kill the cop in your head. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (5 children) Already have, politburo. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 1 week ago (4 children) Then why support secret police and prisons? Why defend someone that does? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (3 children) The only person that mentioned a secret polite was you. None of the anarchists I cited in this entire 🧵 have ever promoted frumentarii. Exposure ≢ endorsement. Unless you think journalists are politicians. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 1 week ago (2 children) You did defend Anark's secret police secret antirevolutionary intelligence gathering on the top comment. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (1 child) secret antirevolutionary intelligence All of these words are antithetical to each other, if you bother to seek any dictionary. The fact you combined them into an incoherent sentence demonstrate a level of ineptitude that I am not willing to unsnarl. Since you keep confusing academic observations as defense, I will leave it to your “friends and community” to intersect. Disengage. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 1 week ago Nerd permalink fedilink source parent [–] Deme@sopuli.xyz 2 points 1 week ago (21 children) Yeah a prison with a focus on rehabilitation is still a prison. Nordic prisons sure are nicer than american ones for example, but they're still prisons and to not call them that is just silly. In the video the only difference to a nordic prison is that it's managed by a smaller scale community. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 21 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 0 points 1 week ago (20 children) prison with a focus on rehabilitation is still a prison anark: all laws and enumerated measures for reparations and rehabilitation not expressed in the constitution would be outlined. […] Justice: repairing the wrongs that have been done and preventing further ones from being committed The distinction anark argues is that there are outliers that wish injustice that do not desire to reparate & rehabilitate, what would be the corrective action to take? Compost, servitute, banishment? Reparations centers are not prisons. Contemporary correctional facilities are slave plantations. So how do we move from private prisons to correcting behavior? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 20 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 1 week ago (11 children) Anark's comment sound like liberalism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 11 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (10 children) How so? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 3 points 1 week ago (9 children) "laws", "reparations", "constitutions", "justice". People calling themselves anarchists have always been the hipster thing to do, the "I'm totally radical" without any self critique. This is how anarchy looks like in regards to prisons, specially relevant because they do mention Anark: https://anarchistnews.org/content/you-cant-build-anarchy-building-prisons-against-carceral-imagination permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 9 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago* (8 children) “laws”, “reparations”, “constitutions”, “justice”. which have exact meanings in anarchist theory, where Anark went out of his way to distinguish. Do you assume anarchist society don't have rules, baseline rules everyone is beholden to, reparative work for wrong doings, and a justice process? https://anarchistnews.org/content/you-cant-build-anarchy-building-prisons-against-carceral-imagination This is the same essay Anark is referencing🤦♀️. Why not cite Bakunin, heck even Kropotkin‽ Why rereference the essay we have already read is being questioned for both legitimacy and reparative & rehabilitative justice? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 1 week ago (7 children) Because anarchy is not the question of reparative and rehabilitative justice, that's cop talk. Justice is a liberal proposition, if you want to do anarchy, you must think bigger not liberal+. If you want to talk justice, constitution, law, etc you can join your local social democracy party. Just stop calling yourself anarchist, stop diluting words. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (6 children) Ok, I see my mistake: You can't read, and you don't comprehend “without hierarchy.” Later demagogue🖕 permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 1 week ago (5 children) "it's not a forest, it's a stationary non-animal life." permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (4 children) “The forest was shrinking but the trees kept voting for the axe, for the axe was clever and convinced the trees that because his handle was made of wood he was one of them.” —Turkish Proverbs permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 3 points 1 week ago (3 children) You do realize that wanting anarchy but supporting secret police and prisons makes you the tree voting for the axe, right? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (2 children) I am not a Leninist. You observed that correctly! Now explain to !Anarchism@lemmy.dbzer0.com why revolutionaries should ignore their oppressors’ information gathering? Disengage me from it. I have gathered enough from you to be aware you don't know anything about revolutionary action. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 1 week ago Nerd permalink fedilink source parent [–] db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 point 1 week ago* If you want to disengage, just reply with "Disengage". The disengage rule is not a way to have the last word in permalink fedilink source parent [–] Deme@sopuli.xyz 1 point 1 week ago (7 children) The distinction anark argues is that there are outliers that wish injustice that do not desire to reparate & rehabilitate, what would be the corrective action to take? Compost, servitute, banishment? And does he propose something that doesn't involve locking people up? I'll note that plenty of indigenous peoples managed just fine without prisons before colonialism showed up. By the definition of "prison" you're using, even rehabilitative facilities like nordic prisons wouldn't be called prisons. It's a bad definition. I prefer this one: a place of confinement especially for lawbreakers specifically : an institution (such as one under state jurisdiction) for confinement of persons convicted of serious crimes Anyways, the semantics are irrelevant if we focus on those outliers you mention, since reparation and rehabilitation would be out of the picture. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 2 points 1 week ago* (6 children) And does he propose something that doesn’t involve locking people up? He does… we both outlined some examples…. I am asking you what corrective course do you think might work better. indigenous peoples managed just fine without prisons before colonialism showed up. ahistorical assertion. a place of confinement especially for lawbreakers specifically : an institution (such as one under state jurisdiction) for confinement of persons convicted of serious crimes By these definitions, bedrooms and closets constitute as prisons, when timing out/disciplining children. I am unsure how else do you see corrective justice¹ could take place. Wrong doings should be corrected, or not? ¹Anark’s definition. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] Deme@sopuli.xyz 2 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (5 children) He does… we both outlined some examples…. I am asking you what corrective course do you think might work better. The solution he proposes involves locking "sequestered citizens" up in "monitored democratic rehabilitation communities with required rehabilitative measures" in the case of the worst crimes. That's a prison. I'm not going to prescribe a solution to a situation that I have no part in. I think the community in question should decide to handle wrongdoers how they see fit on a case by case basis. ahistorical assertion. I didn't say all of them, I said plenty of.... A couple of examples from Australia and Nigeria. By these definitions, bedrooms and closets constitute as prisons, when timing out/disciplining children Do you think a bedroom or a closet is an institution? It's only the institution surrounding it that differentiates a jail cell from (an often boringly decorated) bedroom. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 0 points 1 week ago* (4 children) I think the community in question should decide to punish wrongdoers how they see fit on a case by case basis. literally what he describes earlier in that video… situation that I have no part in. wait, you're not anarchist? Australia […] shaming or public ridicule[…] exclusion from the community (eg to a particular outstation or another community, or more rarely, total exclusion).[112] exclusion from use of facilities[118] exile to an outstation or another community.[119] Nigeria public shaming, corporal correction, spiritual rites, banishment, and, in some contexts under later influences, corporal fines prescribed by Islamic or colonial law [5]. shaming, and ritual highly credible - the threat of ostracism or spiritual sanction supplied strong social incentives for compliance [5]. creating hybrid institutions (community courts, ADR schemes) that combine customary legitimacy with statutory safeguards [8, 9]. 6.1.2. Social Regulation Through Banishment and Ostracism Banishment served as a major sanction for offenses that carried spiritual pollution or posed a continuing threat to communal safety. According to Nadel [5], offenders guilty of morally dangerous acts-such as sacrilege or persistent violence-could be expelled from the community. Ostracism, a milder variant, was used for kinship violations including incest or breaches of marriage norms. These exclusionary practices embodied the African belief that wrongdoing disrupts both social and spiritual equilibrium [1, 4]. By physically or socially removing the offender, the Nupe community sought to restore balance and avoid misfortune. Literally imprisonment. Do you think a bedroom or a closet is an institution?' The institution is the guardians, the physical cages, the perpetrators, and the victims. It’s only the institution surrounding it that differentiates a jail cell from (an often boringly decorated) bedroom. so like a third party doing this, instead of the folks affected by the wrong doing? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Deme@sopuli.xyz 1 point 1 week ago* (3 children) literally what he describes earlier in that video… And then he says "they should lock people up". wait, you’re not anarchist? I am not partial to the crime or wrongdoing in question. If I am, then I will have an opinion. My point is that prescribing solutions from the outside of a situation is authoritarian. Drawing up a constitution and a model for totally-not-prisons (institutions that will perpetuate themselves at the cost of solving the problems they were built to solve) is authoritarian. Literally imprisonment. If you think that shaming, ostracism, exclusion and exile are forms of imprisonment (which is different from prison as an institution, but we'll get to that) , I don't know what to tell you. Sure, shaming and similar rites probably involve detainment like stocks and stuff, but the timescales involved are way shorter and the purpose is shame, not detainment. Also why did you bold ADR? The institution is the guardians, the physical cages, the perpetrators, and the victims. so like a third party doing this, instead of the folks affected by the wrong doing? You don't know what institutions are? That makes sense. An institution is an established custom, practice, relationship, organization, or behavioral pattern of importance in the life of a community or society. Marriage is an institution. Prison is an institution. They are frameworks that exist independently of the people flowing through them or the physical infrastructure facilitating them. They grow in complexity in response to new problems (like more paperwork for a marriage and organizations establishing new departments, see the organizational charts of any government from a hundred years ago vs. today), they perpetuate themselves and calcify. They are the machines that anarchists rage against. The first sentence of the wikipedia page on anarchism: Anarchism is a mostly far-left political philosophy and movement that seeks to abolish all institutions that perpetuate authority, coercion, or hierarchy... A prison (no matter how rehabilitative or how well managed with democratic oversight) is still an institution that perpetuates authority (of the guards over the inmates for example), and quite obviously coercion. Do you see the contradiction of trying to formulate an institution that enacts coercion in a supposedly anarchistic system? Ostracism and exile for example are much more compatible with anarchism as forms of discouraging bad behavior, because they only limit the positive freedoms of the person. No coercion needed when the community just refuses to engage with the person until they right their wrongs. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (2 children) Family is an institution. Community is an institution. Punishment is an institution. Therefore the act of shaming and excluding someone in isolation from the community as punishment for wrong doings is an institution. I guess we have different definitions of authoritarianism, that the edicts of punishments in aboriginal Australia & Nigeria fit your definition of authoritarianism. Also why did you bold ADR? so like a third party doing this, instead of the folks affected by the wrong doing? re institutions A prison (no matter how rehabilitative or how well managed with democratic oversight) is still an institution that perpetuates authority (of the guards over the inmates for example), and quite obviously coercion. Then aboriginals still coerce punishments in isolation and shaming as imprisonment. contradiction of trying to formulate an institution that enacts coercion in a supposedly anarchistic system? I think this is paradox you can't seem to realize. At what point is wrong doing rehabilitation and reparations coercion, and when is not? The paradox here is how much solidarity and intersection you trying uphold. Unless you think wrong doings shouldn't be coerced at all. No coercion needed when the community just refuses to engage with the person until they right their wrongs. What if the wrong doing was coercions in itself: Like rape, murder, subjugation. How do ostracize and exile a rapist, murderer, and subjugator to cease these coercions on the community? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Deme@sopuli.xyz 1 point 1 week ago (1 child) Coercion != institutional coercion. Spontaneous self defense is an obvious example of coercion that isn't institutional, as in an established practice. If someone punches you in the face, you don't stop to think about what the established customs and practices dictate should be done, no, you punch back. A community kicking someone out because they can't behave, while it would probably end up becoming established practice in time, is not established in that sense before it has become a habit for the community. Humans form institutions all the time, that is unavoidable because problems will pop up that require solutions, and then applying those solutions will become habitual because that's more efficient than thinking every problem over from first principles. That's why anarchism is a never ending struggle with no end and the anarchists within that society would have to start raging against the exile-machine when it starts to exile people who shouldn't be exiled (like maybe people who disapprove of that institution). But setting out to build organized institutions of coercion even before a problem arises that would require a coercive solution that would afterwards become established practice, is backwards. The people who build this hypothetical society should cross that bridge when they get there and hopefully enough of them will realize to constantly keep a sceptical eye on any of those practices so that they don't become too established so as to cause unnecessary harm by sheer inertia. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago Cool. I have a revolution to insurrect. It’ll require a lof of dialogue. But hopefully oppressors surrender. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] g00ber@sh.itjust.works 2 points 1 week ago (16 children) Yeah I'm not debating the utility of prisons with an anark fan. It's a direct quote and you can agree with Anark's opinion or not, but disagreeing with it is not grounds to copjacket people using AI slop. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 16 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (15 children) Nowhere have I stated I am a fan of anyone here. I am exposing contexts you and comrade_spood@quokk.au seem to be omitting off your excerpts. I quoted the whole essays, with contexts provided. disagreeing with it is not grounds to copjacket people using AI slop. what are you talking about, David's article‽ permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 15 child comments replies: [–] g00ber@sh.itjust.works 3 points 1 week ago (14 children) "David" is an AI slop bot that generated nonsense that has been shown to be nonsense, stop linking to it and spreading the copjacket. There's no lower form of life than a copjacketer. The context doesn't magically change prisons into not-prisons. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 14 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 0 points 1 week ago (13 children) While we do use these tools in research, nothing here is published without human editorial oversight and source verification; be aware full OSINT reports will nevertheless contain generated material. News articles, and editorials published by Crawlspace Analysis are written by humans , with human editors , and sources are verified to the best of the team’s ability.. Let's assume you're right, David’s article is slop. Ziq’s authoritarianism is blatantly reviewable in the Internet Archive. That includes his copjacketing ban messages. The context doesn’t magically change prisons into not-prisons. How do you then reform wrong doers? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 13 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 1 week ago (12 children) Being an admin of a website no one visits isn't authoritarianism. Stop using phrases incorrectly, it dilutes their meaning. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 12 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (11 children) Sure, masturbation isn't authoritarianism. But ziq keeps shilling his website, so, there’s more to this than humiliation kinks. What is banishment and narrative control called again? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 11 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 1 week ago (10 children) You have to touch grass, the world is bigger than the internet. Talk to your neighbors, make friends. Soon you'll realize a website is no important, what's important are the connections we make in the real world. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (9 children) I do plenty of bloc praxis. Why are you demanding I do more when you can't even define basic authoritarian praxis? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 9 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 1 week ago (8 children) I know you're quizing me to make yourself feel better, nerd. I didn't say make praxis, i said make friends, talk to people in your community, touch grass. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (7 children) nerd make friends, talk to people in your community called solidarity touch grass called ecobombing, planting, growing food, Anything more insults to add exclusionary campist? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 1 week ago (6 children) Kill the cop in your head. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (5 children) Already have, politburo. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 1 week ago (4 children) Then why support secret police and prisons? Why defend someone that does? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (3 children) The only person that mentioned a secret polite was you. None of the anarchists I cited in this entire 🧵 have ever promoted frumentarii. Exposure ≢ endorsement. Unless you think journalists are politicians. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 1 week ago (2 children) You did defend Anark's secret police secret antirevolutionary intelligence gathering on the top comment. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (1 child) secret antirevolutionary intelligence All of these words are antithetical to each other, if you bother to seek any dictionary. The fact you combined them into an incoherent sentence demonstrate a level of ineptitude that I am not willing to unsnarl. Since you keep confusing academic observations as defense, I will leave it to your “friends and community” to intersect. Disengage. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 1 week ago Nerd permalink fedilink source parent
[–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (15 children) Nowhere have I stated I am a fan of anyone here. I am exposing contexts you and comrade_spood@quokk.au seem to be omitting off your excerpts. I quoted the whole essays, with contexts provided. disagreeing with it is not grounds to copjacket people using AI slop. what are you talking about, David's article‽ permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 15 child comments replies: [–] g00ber@sh.itjust.works 3 points 1 week ago (14 children) "David" is an AI slop bot that generated nonsense that has been shown to be nonsense, stop linking to it and spreading the copjacket. There's no lower form of life than a copjacketer. The context doesn't magically change prisons into not-prisons. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 14 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 0 points 1 week ago (13 children) While we do use these tools in research, nothing here is published without human editorial oversight and source verification; be aware full OSINT reports will nevertheless contain generated material. News articles, and editorials published by Crawlspace Analysis are written by humans , with human editors , and sources are verified to the best of the team’s ability.. Let's assume you're right, David’s article is slop. Ziq’s authoritarianism is blatantly reviewable in the Internet Archive. That includes his copjacketing ban messages. The context doesn’t magically change prisons into not-prisons. How do you then reform wrong doers? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 13 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 1 week ago (12 children) Being an admin of a website no one visits isn't authoritarianism. Stop using phrases incorrectly, it dilutes their meaning. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 12 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (11 children) Sure, masturbation isn't authoritarianism. But ziq keeps shilling his website, so, there’s more to this than humiliation kinks. What is banishment and narrative control called again? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 11 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 1 week ago (10 children) You have to touch grass, the world is bigger than the internet. Talk to your neighbors, make friends. Soon you'll realize a website is no important, what's important are the connections we make in the real world. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (9 children) I do plenty of bloc praxis. Why are you demanding I do more when you can't even define basic authoritarian praxis? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 9 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 1 week ago (8 children) I know you're quizing me to make yourself feel better, nerd. I didn't say make praxis, i said make friends, talk to people in your community, touch grass. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (7 children) nerd make friends, talk to people in your community called solidarity touch grass called ecobombing, planting, growing food, Anything more insults to add exclusionary campist? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 1 week ago (6 children) Kill the cop in your head. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (5 children) Already have, politburo. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 1 week ago (4 children) Then why support secret police and prisons? Why defend someone that does? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (3 children) The only person that mentioned a secret polite was you. None of the anarchists I cited in this entire 🧵 have ever promoted frumentarii. Exposure ≢ endorsement. Unless you think journalists are politicians. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 1 week ago (2 children) You did defend Anark's secret police secret antirevolutionary intelligence gathering on the top comment. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (1 child) secret antirevolutionary intelligence All of these words are antithetical to each other, if you bother to seek any dictionary. The fact you combined them into an incoherent sentence demonstrate a level of ineptitude that I am not willing to unsnarl. Since you keep confusing academic observations as defense, I will leave it to your “friends and community” to intersect. Disengage. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 1 week ago Nerd permalink fedilink source parent
[–] g00ber@sh.itjust.works 3 points 1 week ago (14 children) "David" is an AI slop bot that generated nonsense that has been shown to be nonsense, stop linking to it and spreading the copjacket. There's no lower form of life than a copjacketer. The context doesn't magically change prisons into not-prisons. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 14 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 0 points 1 week ago (13 children) While we do use these tools in research, nothing here is published without human editorial oversight and source verification; be aware full OSINT reports will nevertheless contain generated material. News articles, and editorials published by Crawlspace Analysis are written by humans , with human editors , and sources are verified to the best of the team’s ability.. Let's assume you're right, David’s article is slop. Ziq’s authoritarianism is blatantly reviewable in the Internet Archive. That includes his copjacketing ban messages. The context doesn’t magically change prisons into not-prisons. How do you then reform wrong doers? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 13 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 1 week ago (12 children) Being an admin of a website no one visits isn't authoritarianism. Stop using phrases incorrectly, it dilutes their meaning. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 12 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (11 children) Sure, masturbation isn't authoritarianism. But ziq keeps shilling his website, so, there’s more to this than humiliation kinks. What is banishment and narrative control called again? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 11 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 1 week ago (10 children) You have to touch grass, the world is bigger than the internet. Talk to your neighbors, make friends. Soon you'll realize a website is no important, what's important are the connections we make in the real world. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (9 children) I do plenty of bloc praxis. Why are you demanding I do more when you can't even define basic authoritarian praxis? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 9 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 1 week ago (8 children) I know you're quizing me to make yourself feel better, nerd. I didn't say make praxis, i said make friends, talk to people in your community, touch grass. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (7 children) nerd make friends, talk to people in your community called solidarity touch grass called ecobombing, planting, growing food, Anything more insults to add exclusionary campist? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 1 week ago (6 children) Kill the cop in your head. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (5 children) Already have, politburo. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 1 week ago (4 children) Then why support secret police and prisons? Why defend someone that does? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (3 children) The only person that mentioned a secret polite was you. None of the anarchists I cited in this entire 🧵 have ever promoted frumentarii. Exposure ≢ endorsement. Unless you think journalists are politicians. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 1 week ago (2 children) You did defend Anark's secret police secret antirevolutionary intelligence gathering on the top comment. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (1 child) secret antirevolutionary intelligence All of these words are antithetical to each other, if you bother to seek any dictionary. The fact you combined them into an incoherent sentence demonstrate a level of ineptitude that I am not willing to unsnarl. Since you keep confusing academic observations as defense, I will leave it to your “friends and community” to intersect. Disengage. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 1 week ago Nerd permalink fedilink source parent
[–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 0 points 1 week ago (13 children) While we do use these tools in research, nothing here is published without human editorial oversight and source verification; be aware full OSINT reports will nevertheless contain generated material. News articles, and editorials published by Crawlspace Analysis are written by humans , with human editors , and sources are verified to the best of the team’s ability.. Let's assume you're right, David’s article is slop. Ziq’s authoritarianism is blatantly reviewable in the Internet Archive. That includes his copjacketing ban messages. The context doesn’t magically change prisons into not-prisons. How do you then reform wrong doers? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 13 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 1 week ago (12 children) Being an admin of a website no one visits isn't authoritarianism. Stop using phrases incorrectly, it dilutes their meaning. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 12 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (11 children) Sure, masturbation isn't authoritarianism. But ziq keeps shilling his website, so, there’s more to this than humiliation kinks. What is banishment and narrative control called again? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 11 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 1 week ago (10 children) You have to touch grass, the world is bigger than the internet. Talk to your neighbors, make friends. Soon you'll realize a website is no important, what's important are the connections we make in the real world. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (9 children) I do plenty of bloc praxis. Why are you demanding I do more when you can't even define basic authoritarian praxis? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 9 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 1 week ago (8 children) I know you're quizing me to make yourself feel better, nerd. I didn't say make praxis, i said make friends, talk to people in your community, touch grass. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (7 children) nerd make friends, talk to people in your community called solidarity touch grass called ecobombing, planting, growing food, Anything more insults to add exclusionary campist? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 1 week ago (6 children) Kill the cop in your head. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (5 children) Already have, politburo. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 1 week ago (4 children) Then why support secret police and prisons? Why defend someone that does? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (3 children) The only person that mentioned a secret polite was you. None of the anarchists I cited in this entire 🧵 have ever promoted frumentarii. Exposure ≢ endorsement. Unless you think journalists are politicians. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 1 week ago (2 children) You did defend Anark's secret police secret antirevolutionary intelligence gathering on the top comment. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (1 child) secret antirevolutionary intelligence All of these words are antithetical to each other, if you bother to seek any dictionary. The fact you combined them into an incoherent sentence demonstrate a level of ineptitude that I am not willing to unsnarl. Since you keep confusing academic observations as defense, I will leave it to your “friends and community” to intersect. Disengage. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 1 week ago Nerd permalink fedilink source parent
[–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 1 week ago (12 children) Being an admin of a website no one visits isn't authoritarianism. Stop using phrases incorrectly, it dilutes their meaning. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 12 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (11 children) Sure, masturbation isn't authoritarianism. But ziq keeps shilling his website, so, there’s more to this than humiliation kinks. What is banishment and narrative control called again? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 11 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 1 week ago (10 children) You have to touch grass, the world is bigger than the internet. Talk to your neighbors, make friends. Soon you'll realize a website is no important, what's important are the connections we make in the real world. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (9 children) I do plenty of bloc praxis. Why are you demanding I do more when you can't even define basic authoritarian praxis? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 9 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 1 week ago (8 children) I know you're quizing me to make yourself feel better, nerd. I didn't say make praxis, i said make friends, talk to people in your community, touch grass. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (7 children) nerd make friends, talk to people in your community called solidarity touch grass called ecobombing, planting, growing food, Anything more insults to add exclusionary campist? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 1 week ago (6 children) Kill the cop in your head. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (5 children) Already have, politburo. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 1 week ago (4 children) Then why support secret police and prisons? Why defend someone that does? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (3 children) The only person that mentioned a secret polite was you. None of the anarchists I cited in this entire 🧵 have ever promoted frumentarii. Exposure ≢ endorsement. Unless you think journalists are politicians. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 1 week ago (2 children) You did defend Anark's secret police secret antirevolutionary intelligence gathering on the top comment. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (1 child) secret antirevolutionary intelligence All of these words are antithetical to each other, if you bother to seek any dictionary. The fact you combined them into an incoherent sentence demonstrate a level of ineptitude that I am not willing to unsnarl. Since you keep confusing academic observations as defense, I will leave it to your “friends and community” to intersect. Disengage. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 1 week ago Nerd permalink fedilink source parent
[–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (11 children) Sure, masturbation isn't authoritarianism. But ziq keeps shilling his website, so, there’s more to this than humiliation kinks. What is banishment and narrative control called again? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 11 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 1 week ago (10 children) You have to touch grass, the world is bigger than the internet. Talk to your neighbors, make friends. Soon you'll realize a website is no important, what's important are the connections we make in the real world. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (9 children) I do plenty of bloc praxis. Why are you demanding I do more when you can't even define basic authoritarian praxis? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 9 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 1 week ago (8 children) I know you're quizing me to make yourself feel better, nerd. I didn't say make praxis, i said make friends, talk to people in your community, touch grass. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (7 children) nerd make friends, talk to people in your community called solidarity touch grass called ecobombing, planting, growing food, Anything more insults to add exclusionary campist? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 1 week ago (6 children) Kill the cop in your head. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (5 children) Already have, politburo. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 1 week ago (4 children) Then why support secret police and prisons? Why defend someone that does? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (3 children) The only person that mentioned a secret polite was you. None of the anarchists I cited in this entire 🧵 have ever promoted frumentarii. Exposure ≢ endorsement. Unless you think journalists are politicians. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 1 week ago (2 children) You did defend Anark's secret police secret antirevolutionary intelligence gathering on the top comment. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (1 child) secret antirevolutionary intelligence All of these words are antithetical to each other, if you bother to seek any dictionary. The fact you combined them into an incoherent sentence demonstrate a level of ineptitude that I am not willing to unsnarl. Since you keep confusing academic observations as defense, I will leave it to your “friends and community” to intersect. Disengage. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 1 week ago Nerd permalink fedilink source parent
[–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 1 week ago (10 children) You have to touch grass, the world is bigger than the internet. Talk to your neighbors, make friends. Soon you'll realize a website is no important, what's important are the connections we make in the real world. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (9 children) I do plenty of bloc praxis. Why are you demanding I do more when you can't even define basic authoritarian praxis? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 9 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 1 week ago (8 children) I know you're quizing me to make yourself feel better, nerd. I didn't say make praxis, i said make friends, talk to people in your community, touch grass. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (7 children) nerd make friends, talk to people in your community called solidarity touch grass called ecobombing, planting, growing food, Anything more insults to add exclusionary campist? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 1 week ago (6 children) Kill the cop in your head. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (5 children) Already have, politburo. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 1 week ago (4 children) Then why support secret police and prisons? Why defend someone that does? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (3 children) The only person that mentioned a secret polite was you. None of the anarchists I cited in this entire 🧵 have ever promoted frumentarii. Exposure ≢ endorsement. Unless you think journalists are politicians. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 1 week ago (2 children) You did defend Anark's secret police secret antirevolutionary intelligence gathering on the top comment. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (1 child) secret antirevolutionary intelligence All of these words are antithetical to each other, if you bother to seek any dictionary. The fact you combined them into an incoherent sentence demonstrate a level of ineptitude that I am not willing to unsnarl. Since you keep confusing academic observations as defense, I will leave it to your “friends and community” to intersect. Disengage. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 1 week ago Nerd permalink fedilink source parent
[–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (9 children) I do plenty of bloc praxis. Why are you demanding I do more when you can't even define basic authoritarian praxis? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 9 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 1 week ago (8 children) I know you're quizing me to make yourself feel better, nerd. I didn't say make praxis, i said make friends, talk to people in your community, touch grass. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (7 children) nerd make friends, talk to people in your community called solidarity touch grass called ecobombing, planting, growing food, Anything more insults to add exclusionary campist? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 1 week ago (6 children) Kill the cop in your head. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (5 children) Already have, politburo. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 1 week ago (4 children) Then why support secret police and prisons? Why defend someone that does? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (3 children) The only person that mentioned a secret polite was you. None of the anarchists I cited in this entire 🧵 have ever promoted frumentarii. Exposure ≢ endorsement. Unless you think journalists are politicians. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 1 week ago (2 children) You did defend Anark's secret police secret antirevolutionary intelligence gathering on the top comment. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (1 child) secret antirevolutionary intelligence All of these words are antithetical to each other, if you bother to seek any dictionary. The fact you combined them into an incoherent sentence demonstrate a level of ineptitude that I am not willing to unsnarl. Since you keep confusing academic observations as defense, I will leave it to your “friends and community” to intersect. Disengage. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 1 week ago Nerd permalink fedilink source parent
[–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 1 week ago (8 children) I know you're quizing me to make yourself feel better, nerd. I didn't say make praxis, i said make friends, talk to people in your community, touch grass. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (7 children) nerd make friends, talk to people in your community called solidarity touch grass called ecobombing, planting, growing food, Anything more insults to add exclusionary campist? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 1 week ago (6 children) Kill the cop in your head. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (5 children) Already have, politburo. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 1 week ago (4 children) Then why support secret police and prisons? Why defend someone that does? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (3 children) The only person that mentioned a secret polite was you. None of the anarchists I cited in this entire 🧵 have ever promoted frumentarii. Exposure ≢ endorsement. Unless you think journalists are politicians. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 1 week ago (2 children) You did defend Anark's secret police secret antirevolutionary intelligence gathering on the top comment. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (1 child) secret antirevolutionary intelligence All of these words are antithetical to each other, if you bother to seek any dictionary. The fact you combined them into an incoherent sentence demonstrate a level of ineptitude that I am not willing to unsnarl. Since you keep confusing academic observations as defense, I will leave it to your “friends and community” to intersect. Disengage. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 1 week ago Nerd permalink fedilink source parent
[–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (7 children) nerd make friends, talk to people in your community called solidarity touch grass called ecobombing, planting, growing food, Anything more insults to add exclusionary campist? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 1 week ago (6 children) Kill the cop in your head. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (5 children) Already have, politburo. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 1 week ago (4 children) Then why support secret police and prisons? Why defend someone that does? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (3 children) The only person that mentioned a secret polite was you. None of the anarchists I cited in this entire 🧵 have ever promoted frumentarii. Exposure ≢ endorsement. Unless you think journalists are politicians. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 1 week ago (2 children) You did defend Anark's secret police secret antirevolutionary intelligence gathering on the top comment. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (1 child) secret antirevolutionary intelligence All of these words are antithetical to each other, if you bother to seek any dictionary. The fact you combined them into an incoherent sentence demonstrate a level of ineptitude that I am not willing to unsnarl. Since you keep confusing academic observations as defense, I will leave it to your “friends and community” to intersect. Disengage. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 1 week ago Nerd permalink fedilink source parent
[–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 1 week ago (6 children) Kill the cop in your head. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (5 children) Already have, politburo. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 1 week ago (4 children) Then why support secret police and prisons? Why defend someone that does? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (3 children) The only person that mentioned a secret polite was you. None of the anarchists I cited in this entire 🧵 have ever promoted frumentarii. Exposure ≢ endorsement. Unless you think journalists are politicians. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 1 week ago (2 children) You did defend Anark's secret police secret antirevolutionary intelligence gathering on the top comment. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (1 child) secret antirevolutionary intelligence All of these words are antithetical to each other, if you bother to seek any dictionary. The fact you combined them into an incoherent sentence demonstrate a level of ineptitude that I am not willing to unsnarl. Since you keep confusing academic observations as defense, I will leave it to your “friends and community” to intersect. Disengage. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 1 week ago Nerd permalink fedilink source parent
[–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (5 children) Already have, politburo. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 1 week ago (4 children) Then why support secret police and prisons? Why defend someone that does? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (3 children) The only person that mentioned a secret polite was you. None of the anarchists I cited in this entire 🧵 have ever promoted frumentarii. Exposure ≢ endorsement. Unless you think journalists are politicians. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 1 week ago (2 children) You did defend Anark's secret police secret antirevolutionary intelligence gathering on the top comment. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (1 child) secret antirevolutionary intelligence All of these words are antithetical to each other, if you bother to seek any dictionary. The fact you combined them into an incoherent sentence demonstrate a level of ineptitude that I am not willing to unsnarl. Since you keep confusing academic observations as defense, I will leave it to your “friends and community” to intersect. Disengage. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 1 week ago Nerd permalink fedilink source parent
[–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 1 week ago (4 children) Then why support secret police and prisons? Why defend someone that does? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (3 children) The only person that mentioned a secret polite was you. None of the anarchists I cited in this entire 🧵 have ever promoted frumentarii. Exposure ≢ endorsement. Unless you think journalists are politicians. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 1 week ago (2 children) You did defend Anark's secret police secret antirevolutionary intelligence gathering on the top comment. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (1 child) secret antirevolutionary intelligence All of these words are antithetical to each other, if you bother to seek any dictionary. The fact you combined them into an incoherent sentence demonstrate a level of ineptitude that I am not willing to unsnarl. Since you keep confusing academic observations as defense, I will leave it to your “friends and community” to intersect. Disengage. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 1 week ago Nerd permalink fedilink source parent
[–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (3 children) The only person that mentioned a secret polite was you. None of the anarchists I cited in this entire 🧵 have ever promoted frumentarii. Exposure ≢ endorsement. Unless you think journalists are politicians. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 1 week ago (2 children) You did defend Anark's secret police secret antirevolutionary intelligence gathering on the top comment. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (1 child) secret antirevolutionary intelligence All of these words are antithetical to each other, if you bother to seek any dictionary. The fact you combined them into an incoherent sentence demonstrate a level of ineptitude that I am not willing to unsnarl. Since you keep confusing academic observations as defense, I will leave it to your “friends and community” to intersect. Disengage. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 1 week ago Nerd permalink fedilink source parent
[–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 1 week ago (2 children) You did defend Anark's secret police secret antirevolutionary intelligence gathering on the top comment. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (1 child) secret antirevolutionary intelligence All of these words are antithetical to each other, if you bother to seek any dictionary. The fact you combined them into an incoherent sentence demonstrate a level of ineptitude that I am not willing to unsnarl. Since you keep confusing academic observations as defense, I will leave it to your “friends and community” to intersect. Disengage. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 1 week ago Nerd permalink fedilink source parent
[–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (1 child) secret antirevolutionary intelligence All of these words are antithetical to each other, if you bother to seek any dictionary. The fact you combined them into an incoherent sentence demonstrate a level of ineptitude that I am not willing to unsnarl. Since you keep confusing academic observations as defense, I will leave it to your “friends and community” to intersect. Disengage. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 1 week ago Nerd permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Deme@sopuli.xyz 2 points 1 week ago (21 children) Yeah a prison with a focus on rehabilitation is still a prison. Nordic prisons sure are nicer than american ones for example, but they're still prisons and to not call them that is just silly. In the video the only difference to a nordic prison is that it's managed by a smaller scale community. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 21 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 0 points 1 week ago (20 children) prison with a focus on rehabilitation is still a prison anark: all laws and enumerated measures for reparations and rehabilitation not expressed in the constitution would be outlined. […] Justice: repairing the wrongs that have been done and preventing further ones from being committed The distinction anark argues is that there are outliers that wish injustice that do not desire to reparate & rehabilitate, what would be the corrective action to take? Compost, servitute, banishment? Reparations centers are not prisons. Contemporary correctional facilities are slave plantations. So how do we move from private prisons to correcting behavior? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 20 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 1 week ago (11 children) Anark's comment sound like liberalism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 11 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (10 children) How so? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 3 points 1 week ago (9 children) "laws", "reparations", "constitutions", "justice". People calling themselves anarchists have always been the hipster thing to do, the "I'm totally radical" without any self critique. This is how anarchy looks like in regards to prisons, specially relevant because they do mention Anark: https://anarchistnews.org/content/you-cant-build-anarchy-building-prisons-against-carceral-imagination permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 9 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago* (8 children) “laws”, “reparations”, “constitutions”, “justice”. which have exact meanings in anarchist theory, where Anark went out of his way to distinguish. Do you assume anarchist society don't have rules, baseline rules everyone is beholden to, reparative work for wrong doings, and a justice process? https://anarchistnews.org/content/you-cant-build-anarchy-building-prisons-against-carceral-imagination This is the same essay Anark is referencing🤦♀️. Why not cite Bakunin, heck even Kropotkin‽ Why rereference the essay we have already read is being questioned for both legitimacy and reparative & rehabilitative justice? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 1 week ago (7 children) Because anarchy is not the question of reparative and rehabilitative justice, that's cop talk. Justice is a liberal proposition, if you want to do anarchy, you must think bigger not liberal+. If you want to talk justice, constitution, law, etc you can join your local social democracy party. Just stop calling yourself anarchist, stop diluting words. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (6 children) Ok, I see my mistake: You can't read, and you don't comprehend “without hierarchy.” Later demagogue🖕 permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 1 week ago (5 children) "it's not a forest, it's a stationary non-animal life." permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (4 children) “The forest was shrinking but the trees kept voting for the axe, for the axe was clever and convinced the trees that because his handle was made of wood he was one of them.” —Turkish Proverbs permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 3 points 1 week ago (3 children) You do realize that wanting anarchy but supporting secret police and prisons makes you the tree voting for the axe, right? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (2 children) I am not a Leninist. You observed that correctly! Now explain to !Anarchism@lemmy.dbzer0.com why revolutionaries should ignore their oppressors’ information gathering? Disengage me from it. I have gathered enough from you to be aware you don't know anything about revolutionary action. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 1 week ago Nerd permalink fedilink source parent [–] db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 point 1 week ago* If you want to disengage, just reply with "Disengage". The disengage rule is not a way to have the last word in permalink fedilink source parent [–] Deme@sopuli.xyz 1 point 1 week ago (7 children) The distinction anark argues is that there are outliers that wish injustice that do not desire to reparate & rehabilitate, what would be the corrective action to take? Compost, servitute, banishment? And does he propose something that doesn't involve locking people up? I'll note that plenty of indigenous peoples managed just fine without prisons before colonialism showed up. By the definition of "prison" you're using, even rehabilitative facilities like nordic prisons wouldn't be called prisons. It's a bad definition. I prefer this one: a place of confinement especially for lawbreakers specifically : an institution (such as one under state jurisdiction) for confinement of persons convicted of serious crimes Anyways, the semantics are irrelevant if we focus on those outliers you mention, since reparation and rehabilitation would be out of the picture. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 2 points 1 week ago* (6 children) And does he propose something that doesn’t involve locking people up? He does… we both outlined some examples…. I am asking you what corrective course do you think might work better. indigenous peoples managed just fine without prisons before colonialism showed up. ahistorical assertion. a place of confinement especially for lawbreakers specifically : an institution (such as one under state jurisdiction) for confinement of persons convicted of serious crimes By these definitions, bedrooms and closets constitute as prisons, when timing out/disciplining children. I am unsure how else do you see corrective justice¹ could take place. Wrong doings should be corrected, or not? ¹Anark’s definition. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] Deme@sopuli.xyz 2 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (5 children) He does… we both outlined some examples…. I am asking you what corrective course do you think might work better. The solution he proposes involves locking "sequestered citizens" up in "monitored democratic rehabilitation communities with required rehabilitative measures" in the case of the worst crimes. That's a prison. I'm not going to prescribe a solution to a situation that I have no part in. I think the community in question should decide to handle wrongdoers how they see fit on a case by case basis. ahistorical assertion. I didn't say all of them, I said plenty of.... A couple of examples from Australia and Nigeria. By these definitions, bedrooms and closets constitute as prisons, when timing out/disciplining children Do you think a bedroom or a closet is an institution? It's only the institution surrounding it that differentiates a jail cell from (an often boringly decorated) bedroom. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 0 points 1 week ago* (4 children) I think the community in question should decide to punish wrongdoers how they see fit on a case by case basis. literally what he describes earlier in that video… situation that I have no part in. wait, you're not anarchist? Australia […] shaming or public ridicule[…] exclusion from the community (eg to a particular outstation or another community, or more rarely, total exclusion).[112] exclusion from use of facilities[118] exile to an outstation or another community.[119] Nigeria public shaming, corporal correction, spiritual rites, banishment, and, in some contexts under later influences, corporal fines prescribed by Islamic or colonial law [5]. shaming, and ritual highly credible - the threat of ostracism or spiritual sanction supplied strong social incentives for compliance [5]. creating hybrid institutions (community courts, ADR schemes) that combine customary legitimacy with statutory safeguards [8, 9]. 6.1.2. Social Regulation Through Banishment and Ostracism Banishment served as a major sanction for offenses that carried spiritual pollution or posed a continuing threat to communal safety. According to Nadel [5], offenders guilty of morally dangerous acts-such as sacrilege or persistent violence-could be expelled from the community. Ostracism, a milder variant, was used for kinship violations including incest or breaches of marriage norms. These exclusionary practices embodied the African belief that wrongdoing disrupts both social and spiritual equilibrium [1, 4]. By physically or socially removing the offender, the Nupe community sought to restore balance and avoid misfortune. Literally imprisonment. Do you think a bedroom or a closet is an institution?' The institution is the guardians, the physical cages, the perpetrators, and the victims. It’s only the institution surrounding it that differentiates a jail cell from (an often boringly decorated) bedroom. so like a third party doing this, instead of the folks affected by the wrong doing? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Deme@sopuli.xyz 1 point 1 week ago* (3 children) literally what he describes earlier in that video… And then he says "they should lock people up". wait, you’re not anarchist? I am not partial to the crime or wrongdoing in question. If I am, then I will have an opinion. My point is that prescribing solutions from the outside of a situation is authoritarian. Drawing up a constitution and a model for totally-not-prisons (institutions that will perpetuate themselves at the cost of solving the problems they were built to solve) is authoritarian. Literally imprisonment. If you think that shaming, ostracism, exclusion and exile are forms of imprisonment (which is different from prison as an institution, but we'll get to that) , I don't know what to tell you. Sure, shaming and similar rites probably involve detainment like stocks and stuff, but the timescales involved are way shorter and the purpose is shame, not detainment. Also why did you bold ADR? The institution is the guardians, the physical cages, the perpetrators, and the victims. so like a third party doing this, instead of the folks affected by the wrong doing? You don't know what institutions are? That makes sense. An institution is an established custom, practice, relationship, organization, or behavioral pattern of importance in the life of a community or society. Marriage is an institution. Prison is an institution. They are frameworks that exist independently of the people flowing through them or the physical infrastructure facilitating them. They grow in complexity in response to new problems (like more paperwork for a marriage and organizations establishing new departments, see the organizational charts of any government from a hundred years ago vs. today), they perpetuate themselves and calcify. They are the machines that anarchists rage against. The first sentence of the wikipedia page on anarchism: Anarchism is a mostly far-left political philosophy and movement that seeks to abolish all institutions that perpetuate authority, coercion, or hierarchy... A prison (no matter how rehabilitative or how well managed with democratic oversight) is still an institution that perpetuates authority (of the guards over the inmates for example), and quite obviously coercion. Do you see the contradiction of trying to formulate an institution that enacts coercion in a supposedly anarchistic system? Ostracism and exile for example are much more compatible with anarchism as forms of discouraging bad behavior, because they only limit the positive freedoms of the person. No coercion needed when the community just refuses to engage with the person until they right their wrongs. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (2 children) Family is an institution. Community is an institution. Punishment is an institution. Therefore the act of shaming and excluding someone in isolation from the community as punishment for wrong doings is an institution. I guess we have different definitions of authoritarianism, that the edicts of punishments in aboriginal Australia & Nigeria fit your definition of authoritarianism. Also why did you bold ADR? so like a third party doing this, instead of the folks affected by the wrong doing? re institutions A prison (no matter how rehabilitative or how well managed with democratic oversight) is still an institution that perpetuates authority (of the guards over the inmates for example), and quite obviously coercion. Then aboriginals still coerce punishments in isolation and shaming as imprisonment. contradiction of trying to formulate an institution that enacts coercion in a supposedly anarchistic system? I think this is paradox you can't seem to realize. At what point is wrong doing rehabilitation and reparations coercion, and when is not? The paradox here is how much solidarity and intersection you trying uphold. Unless you think wrong doings shouldn't be coerced at all. No coercion needed when the community just refuses to engage with the person until they right their wrongs. What if the wrong doing was coercions in itself: Like rape, murder, subjugation. How do ostracize and exile a rapist, murderer, and subjugator to cease these coercions on the community? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Deme@sopuli.xyz 1 point 1 week ago (1 child) Coercion != institutional coercion. Spontaneous self defense is an obvious example of coercion that isn't institutional, as in an established practice. If someone punches you in the face, you don't stop to think about what the established customs and practices dictate should be done, no, you punch back. A community kicking someone out because they can't behave, while it would probably end up becoming established practice in time, is not established in that sense before it has become a habit for the community. Humans form institutions all the time, that is unavoidable because problems will pop up that require solutions, and then applying those solutions will become habitual because that's more efficient than thinking every problem over from first principles. That's why anarchism is a never ending struggle with no end and the anarchists within that society would have to start raging against the exile-machine when it starts to exile people who shouldn't be exiled (like maybe people who disapprove of that institution). But setting out to build organized institutions of coercion even before a problem arises that would require a coercive solution that would afterwards become established practice, is backwards. The people who build this hypothetical society should cross that bridge when they get there and hopefully enough of them will realize to constantly keep a sceptical eye on any of those practices so that they don't become too established so as to cause unnecessary harm by sheer inertia. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago Cool. I have a revolution to insurrect. It’ll require a lof of dialogue. But hopefully oppressors surrender. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 0 points 1 week ago (20 children) prison with a focus on rehabilitation is still a prison anark: all laws and enumerated measures for reparations and rehabilitation not expressed in the constitution would be outlined. […] Justice: repairing the wrongs that have been done and preventing further ones from being committed The distinction anark argues is that there are outliers that wish injustice that do not desire to reparate & rehabilitate, what would be the corrective action to take? Compost, servitute, banishment? Reparations centers are not prisons. Contemporary correctional facilities are slave plantations. So how do we move from private prisons to correcting behavior? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 20 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 1 week ago (11 children) Anark's comment sound like liberalism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 11 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (10 children) How so? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 3 points 1 week ago (9 children) "laws", "reparations", "constitutions", "justice". People calling themselves anarchists have always been the hipster thing to do, the "I'm totally radical" without any self critique. This is how anarchy looks like in regards to prisons, specially relevant because they do mention Anark: https://anarchistnews.org/content/you-cant-build-anarchy-building-prisons-against-carceral-imagination permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 9 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago* (8 children) “laws”, “reparations”, “constitutions”, “justice”. which have exact meanings in anarchist theory, where Anark went out of his way to distinguish. Do you assume anarchist society don't have rules, baseline rules everyone is beholden to, reparative work for wrong doings, and a justice process? https://anarchistnews.org/content/you-cant-build-anarchy-building-prisons-against-carceral-imagination This is the same essay Anark is referencing🤦♀️. Why not cite Bakunin, heck even Kropotkin‽ Why rereference the essay we have already read is being questioned for both legitimacy and reparative & rehabilitative justice? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 1 week ago (7 children) Because anarchy is not the question of reparative and rehabilitative justice, that's cop talk. Justice is a liberal proposition, if you want to do anarchy, you must think bigger not liberal+. If you want to talk justice, constitution, law, etc you can join your local social democracy party. Just stop calling yourself anarchist, stop diluting words. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (6 children) Ok, I see my mistake: You can't read, and you don't comprehend “without hierarchy.” Later demagogue🖕 permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 1 week ago (5 children) "it's not a forest, it's a stationary non-animal life." permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (4 children) “The forest was shrinking but the trees kept voting for the axe, for the axe was clever and convinced the trees that because his handle was made of wood he was one of them.” —Turkish Proverbs permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 3 points 1 week ago (3 children) You do realize that wanting anarchy but supporting secret police and prisons makes you the tree voting for the axe, right? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (2 children) I am not a Leninist. You observed that correctly! Now explain to !Anarchism@lemmy.dbzer0.com why revolutionaries should ignore their oppressors’ information gathering? Disengage me from it. I have gathered enough from you to be aware you don't know anything about revolutionary action. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 1 week ago Nerd permalink fedilink source parent [–] db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 point 1 week ago* If you want to disengage, just reply with "Disengage". The disengage rule is not a way to have the last word in permalink fedilink source parent [–] Deme@sopuli.xyz 1 point 1 week ago (7 children) The distinction anark argues is that there are outliers that wish injustice that do not desire to reparate & rehabilitate, what would be the corrective action to take? Compost, servitute, banishment? And does he propose something that doesn't involve locking people up? I'll note that plenty of indigenous peoples managed just fine without prisons before colonialism showed up. By the definition of "prison" you're using, even rehabilitative facilities like nordic prisons wouldn't be called prisons. It's a bad definition. I prefer this one: a place of confinement especially for lawbreakers specifically : an institution (such as one under state jurisdiction) for confinement of persons convicted of serious crimes Anyways, the semantics are irrelevant if we focus on those outliers you mention, since reparation and rehabilitation would be out of the picture. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 2 points 1 week ago* (6 children) And does he propose something that doesn’t involve locking people up? He does… we both outlined some examples…. I am asking you what corrective course do you think might work better. indigenous peoples managed just fine without prisons before colonialism showed up. ahistorical assertion. a place of confinement especially for lawbreakers specifically : an institution (such as one under state jurisdiction) for confinement of persons convicted of serious crimes By these definitions, bedrooms and closets constitute as prisons, when timing out/disciplining children. I am unsure how else do you see corrective justice¹ could take place. Wrong doings should be corrected, or not? ¹Anark’s definition. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] Deme@sopuli.xyz 2 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (5 children) He does… we both outlined some examples…. I am asking you what corrective course do you think might work better. The solution he proposes involves locking "sequestered citizens" up in "monitored democratic rehabilitation communities with required rehabilitative measures" in the case of the worst crimes. That's a prison. I'm not going to prescribe a solution to a situation that I have no part in. I think the community in question should decide to handle wrongdoers how they see fit on a case by case basis. ahistorical assertion. I didn't say all of them, I said plenty of.... A couple of examples from Australia and Nigeria. By these definitions, bedrooms and closets constitute as prisons, when timing out/disciplining children Do you think a bedroom or a closet is an institution? It's only the institution surrounding it that differentiates a jail cell from (an often boringly decorated) bedroom. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 0 points 1 week ago* (4 children) I think the community in question should decide to punish wrongdoers how they see fit on a case by case basis. literally what he describes earlier in that video… situation that I have no part in. wait, you're not anarchist? Australia […] shaming or public ridicule[…] exclusion from the community (eg to a particular outstation or another community, or more rarely, total exclusion).[112] exclusion from use of facilities[118] exile to an outstation or another community.[119] Nigeria public shaming, corporal correction, spiritual rites, banishment, and, in some contexts under later influences, corporal fines prescribed by Islamic or colonial law [5]. shaming, and ritual highly credible - the threat of ostracism or spiritual sanction supplied strong social incentives for compliance [5]. creating hybrid institutions (community courts, ADR schemes) that combine customary legitimacy with statutory safeguards [8, 9]. 6.1.2. Social Regulation Through Banishment and Ostracism Banishment served as a major sanction for offenses that carried spiritual pollution or posed a continuing threat to communal safety. According to Nadel [5], offenders guilty of morally dangerous acts-such as sacrilege or persistent violence-could be expelled from the community. Ostracism, a milder variant, was used for kinship violations including incest or breaches of marriage norms. These exclusionary practices embodied the African belief that wrongdoing disrupts both social and spiritual equilibrium [1, 4]. By physically or socially removing the offender, the Nupe community sought to restore balance and avoid misfortune. Literally imprisonment. Do you think a bedroom or a closet is an institution?' The institution is the guardians, the physical cages, the perpetrators, and the victims. It’s only the institution surrounding it that differentiates a jail cell from (an often boringly decorated) bedroom. so like a third party doing this, instead of the folks affected by the wrong doing? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Deme@sopuli.xyz 1 point 1 week ago* (3 children) literally what he describes earlier in that video… And then he says "they should lock people up". wait, you’re not anarchist? I am not partial to the crime or wrongdoing in question. If I am, then I will have an opinion. My point is that prescribing solutions from the outside of a situation is authoritarian. Drawing up a constitution and a model for totally-not-prisons (institutions that will perpetuate themselves at the cost of solving the problems they were built to solve) is authoritarian. Literally imprisonment. If you think that shaming, ostracism, exclusion and exile are forms of imprisonment (which is different from prison as an institution, but we'll get to that) , I don't know what to tell you. Sure, shaming and similar rites probably involve detainment like stocks and stuff, but the timescales involved are way shorter and the purpose is shame, not detainment. Also why did you bold ADR? The institution is the guardians, the physical cages, the perpetrators, and the victims. so like a third party doing this, instead of the folks affected by the wrong doing? You don't know what institutions are? That makes sense. An institution is an established custom, practice, relationship, organization, or behavioral pattern of importance in the life of a community or society. Marriage is an institution. Prison is an institution. They are frameworks that exist independently of the people flowing through them or the physical infrastructure facilitating them. They grow in complexity in response to new problems (like more paperwork for a marriage and organizations establishing new departments, see the organizational charts of any government from a hundred years ago vs. today), they perpetuate themselves and calcify. They are the machines that anarchists rage against. The first sentence of the wikipedia page on anarchism: Anarchism is a mostly far-left political philosophy and movement that seeks to abolish all institutions that perpetuate authority, coercion, or hierarchy... A prison (no matter how rehabilitative or how well managed with democratic oversight) is still an institution that perpetuates authority (of the guards over the inmates for example), and quite obviously coercion. Do you see the contradiction of trying to formulate an institution that enacts coercion in a supposedly anarchistic system? Ostracism and exile for example are much more compatible with anarchism as forms of discouraging bad behavior, because they only limit the positive freedoms of the person. No coercion needed when the community just refuses to engage with the person until they right their wrongs. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (2 children) Family is an institution. Community is an institution. Punishment is an institution. Therefore the act of shaming and excluding someone in isolation from the community as punishment for wrong doings is an institution. I guess we have different definitions of authoritarianism, that the edicts of punishments in aboriginal Australia & Nigeria fit your definition of authoritarianism. Also why did you bold ADR? so like a third party doing this, instead of the folks affected by the wrong doing? re institutions A prison (no matter how rehabilitative or how well managed with democratic oversight) is still an institution that perpetuates authority (of the guards over the inmates for example), and quite obviously coercion. Then aboriginals still coerce punishments in isolation and shaming as imprisonment. contradiction of trying to formulate an institution that enacts coercion in a supposedly anarchistic system? I think this is paradox you can't seem to realize. At what point is wrong doing rehabilitation and reparations coercion, and when is not? The paradox here is how much solidarity and intersection you trying uphold. Unless you think wrong doings shouldn't be coerced at all. No coercion needed when the community just refuses to engage with the person until they right their wrongs. What if the wrong doing was coercions in itself: Like rape, murder, subjugation. How do ostracize and exile a rapist, murderer, and subjugator to cease these coercions on the community? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Deme@sopuli.xyz 1 point 1 week ago (1 child) Coercion != institutional coercion. Spontaneous self defense is an obvious example of coercion that isn't institutional, as in an established practice. If someone punches you in the face, you don't stop to think about what the established customs and practices dictate should be done, no, you punch back. A community kicking someone out because they can't behave, while it would probably end up becoming established practice in time, is not established in that sense before it has become a habit for the community. Humans form institutions all the time, that is unavoidable because problems will pop up that require solutions, and then applying those solutions will become habitual because that's more efficient than thinking every problem over from first principles. That's why anarchism is a never ending struggle with no end and the anarchists within that society would have to start raging against the exile-machine when it starts to exile people who shouldn't be exiled (like maybe people who disapprove of that institution). But setting out to build organized institutions of coercion even before a problem arises that would require a coercive solution that would afterwards become established practice, is backwards. The people who build this hypothetical society should cross that bridge when they get there and hopefully enough of them will realize to constantly keep a sceptical eye on any of those practices so that they don't become too established so as to cause unnecessary harm by sheer inertia. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago Cool. I have a revolution to insurrect. It’ll require a lof of dialogue. But hopefully oppressors surrender. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 1 week ago (11 children) Anark's comment sound like liberalism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 11 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (10 children) How so? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 3 points 1 week ago (9 children) "laws", "reparations", "constitutions", "justice". People calling themselves anarchists have always been the hipster thing to do, the "I'm totally radical" without any self critique. This is how anarchy looks like in regards to prisons, specially relevant because they do mention Anark: https://anarchistnews.org/content/you-cant-build-anarchy-building-prisons-against-carceral-imagination permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 9 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago* (8 children) “laws”, “reparations”, “constitutions”, “justice”. which have exact meanings in anarchist theory, where Anark went out of his way to distinguish. Do you assume anarchist society don't have rules, baseline rules everyone is beholden to, reparative work for wrong doings, and a justice process? https://anarchistnews.org/content/you-cant-build-anarchy-building-prisons-against-carceral-imagination This is the same essay Anark is referencing🤦♀️. Why not cite Bakunin, heck even Kropotkin‽ Why rereference the essay we have already read is being questioned for both legitimacy and reparative & rehabilitative justice? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 1 week ago (7 children) Because anarchy is not the question of reparative and rehabilitative justice, that's cop talk. Justice is a liberal proposition, if you want to do anarchy, you must think bigger not liberal+. If you want to talk justice, constitution, law, etc you can join your local social democracy party. Just stop calling yourself anarchist, stop diluting words. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (6 children) Ok, I see my mistake: You can't read, and you don't comprehend “without hierarchy.” Later demagogue🖕 permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 1 week ago (5 children) "it's not a forest, it's a stationary non-animal life." permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (4 children) “The forest was shrinking but the trees kept voting for the axe, for the axe was clever and convinced the trees that because his handle was made of wood he was one of them.” —Turkish Proverbs permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 3 points 1 week ago (3 children) You do realize that wanting anarchy but supporting secret police and prisons makes you the tree voting for the axe, right? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (2 children) I am not a Leninist. You observed that correctly! Now explain to !Anarchism@lemmy.dbzer0.com why revolutionaries should ignore their oppressors’ information gathering? Disengage me from it. I have gathered enough from you to be aware you don't know anything about revolutionary action. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 1 week ago Nerd permalink fedilink source parent [–] db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 point 1 week ago* If you want to disengage, just reply with "Disengage". The disengage rule is not a way to have the last word in permalink fedilink source parent
[–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (10 children) How so? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 10 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 3 points 1 week ago (9 children) "laws", "reparations", "constitutions", "justice". People calling themselves anarchists have always been the hipster thing to do, the "I'm totally radical" without any self critique. This is how anarchy looks like in regards to prisons, specially relevant because they do mention Anark: https://anarchistnews.org/content/you-cant-build-anarchy-building-prisons-against-carceral-imagination permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 9 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago* (8 children) “laws”, “reparations”, “constitutions”, “justice”. which have exact meanings in anarchist theory, where Anark went out of his way to distinguish. Do you assume anarchist society don't have rules, baseline rules everyone is beholden to, reparative work for wrong doings, and a justice process? https://anarchistnews.org/content/you-cant-build-anarchy-building-prisons-against-carceral-imagination This is the same essay Anark is referencing🤦♀️. Why not cite Bakunin, heck even Kropotkin‽ Why rereference the essay we have already read is being questioned for both legitimacy and reparative & rehabilitative justice? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 1 week ago (7 children) Because anarchy is not the question of reparative and rehabilitative justice, that's cop talk. Justice is a liberal proposition, if you want to do anarchy, you must think bigger not liberal+. If you want to talk justice, constitution, law, etc you can join your local social democracy party. Just stop calling yourself anarchist, stop diluting words. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (6 children) Ok, I see my mistake: You can't read, and you don't comprehend “without hierarchy.” Later demagogue🖕 permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 1 week ago (5 children) "it's not a forest, it's a stationary non-animal life." permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (4 children) “The forest was shrinking but the trees kept voting for the axe, for the axe was clever and convinced the trees that because his handle was made of wood he was one of them.” —Turkish Proverbs permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 3 points 1 week ago (3 children) You do realize that wanting anarchy but supporting secret police and prisons makes you the tree voting for the axe, right? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (2 children) I am not a Leninist. You observed that correctly! Now explain to !Anarchism@lemmy.dbzer0.com why revolutionaries should ignore their oppressors’ information gathering? Disengage me from it. I have gathered enough from you to be aware you don't know anything about revolutionary action. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 1 week ago Nerd permalink fedilink source parent [–] db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 point 1 week ago* If you want to disengage, just reply with "Disengage". The disengage rule is not a way to have the last word in permalink fedilink source parent
[–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 3 points 1 week ago (9 children) "laws", "reparations", "constitutions", "justice". People calling themselves anarchists have always been the hipster thing to do, the "I'm totally radical" without any self critique. This is how anarchy looks like in regards to prisons, specially relevant because they do mention Anark: https://anarchistnews.org/content/you-cant-build-anarchy-building-prisons-against-carceral-imagination permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 9 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago* (8 children) “laws”, “reparations”, “constitutions”, “justice”. which have exact meanings in anarchist theory, where Anark went out of his way to distinguish. Do you assume anarchist society don't have rules, baseline rules everyone is beholden to, reparative work for wrong doings, and a justice process? https://anarchistnews.org/content/you-cant-build-anarchy-building-prisons-against-carceral-imagination This is the same essay Anark is referencing🤦♀️. Why not cite Bakunin, heck even Kropotkin‽ Why rereference the essay we have already read is being questioned for both legitimacy and reparative & rehabilitative justice? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 1 week ago (7 children) Because anarchy is not the question of reparative and rehabilitative justice, that's cop talk. Justice is a liberal proposition, if you want to do anarchy, you must think bigger not liberal+. If you want to talk justice, constitution, law, etc you can join your local social democracy party. Just stop calling yourself anarchist, stop diluting words. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (6 children) Ok, I see my mistake: You can't read, and you don't comprehend “without hierarchy.” Later demagogue🖕 permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 1 week ago (5 children) "it's not a forest, it's a stationary non-animal life." permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (4 children) “The forest was shrinking but the trees kept voting for the axe, for the axe was clever and convinced the trees that because his handle was made of wood he was one of them.” —Turkish Proverbs permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 3 points 1 week ago (3 children) You do realize that wanting anarchy but supporting secret police and prisons makes you the tree voting for the axe, right? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (2 children) I am not a Leninist. You observed that correctly! Now explain to !Anarchism@lemmy.dbzer0.com why revolutionaries should ignore their oppressors’ information gathering? Disengage me from it. I have gathered enough from you to be aware you don't know anything about revolutionary action. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 1 week ago Nerd permalink fedilink source parent [–] db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 point 1 week ago* If you want to disengage, just reply with "Disengage". The disengage rule is not a way to have the last word in permalink fedilink source parent
[–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago* (8 children) “laws”, “reparations”, “constitutions”, “justice”. which have exact meanings in anarchist theory, where Anark went out of his way to distinguish. Do you assume anarchist society don't have rules, baseline rules everyone is beholden to, reparative work for wrong doings, and a justice process? https://anarchistnews.org/content/you-cant-build-anarchy-building-prisons-against-carceral-imagination This is the same essay Anark is referencing🤦♀️. Why not cite Bakunin, heck even Kropotkin‽ Why rereference the essay we have already read is being questioned for both legitimacy and reparative & rehabilitative justice? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 1 week ago (7 children) Because anarchy is not the question of reparative and rehabilitative justice, that's cop talk. Justice is a liberal proposition, if you want to do anarchy, you must think bigger not liberal+. If you want to talk justice, constitution, law, etc you can join your local social democracy party. Just stop calling yourself anarchist, stop diluting words. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (6 children) Ok, I see my mistake: You can't read, and you don't comprehend “without hierarchy.” Later demagogue🖕 permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 1 week ago (5 children) "it's not a forest, it's a stationary non-animal life." permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (4 children) “The forest was shrinking but the trees kept voting for the axe, for the axe was clever and convinced the trees that because his handle was made of wood he was one of them.” —Turkish Proverbs permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 3 points 1 week ago (3 children) You do realize that wanting anarchy but supporting secret police and prisons makes you the tree voting for the axe, right? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (2 children) I am not a Leninist. You observed that correctly! Now explain to !Anarchism@lemmy.dbzer0.com why revolutionaries should ignore their oppressors’ information gathering? Disengage me from it. I have gathered enough from you to be aware you don't know anything about revolutionary action. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 1 week ago Nerd permalink fedilink source parent [–] db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 point 1 week ago* If you want to disengage, just reply with "Disengage". The disengage rule is not a way to have the last word in permalink fedilink source parent
[–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 1 week ago (7 children) Because anarchy is not the question of reparative and rehabilitative justice, that's cop talk. Justice is a liberal proposition, if you want to do anarchy, you must think bigger not liberal+. If you want to talk justice, constitution, law, etc you can join your local social democracy party. Just stop calling yourself anarchist, stop diluting words. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (6 children) Ok, I see my mistake: You can't read, and you don't comprehend “without hierarchy.” Later demagogue🖕 permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 1 week ago (5 children) "it's not a forest, it's a stationary non-animal life." permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (4 children) “The forest was shrinking but the trees kept voting for the axe, for the axe was clever and convinced the trees that because his handle was made of wood he was one of them.” —Turkish Proverbs permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 3 points 1 week ago (3 children) You do realize that wanting anarchy but supporting secret police and prisons makes you the tree voting for the axe, right? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (2 children) I am not a Leninist. You observed that correctly! Now explain to !Anarchism@lemmy.dbzer0.com why revolutionaries should ignore their oppressors’ information gathering? Disengage me from it. I have gathered enough from you to be aware you don't know anything about revolutionary action. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 1 week ago Nerd permalink fedilink source parent [–] db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 point 1 week ago* If you want to disengage, just reply with "Disengage". The disengage rule is not a way to have the last word in permalink fedilink source parent
[–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (6 children) Ok, I see my mistake: You can't read, and you don't comprehend “without hierarchy.” Later demagogue🖕 permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 1 week ago (5 children) "it's not a forest, it's a stationary non-animal life." permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (4 children) “The forest was shrinking but the trees kept voting for the axe, for the axe was clever and convinced the trees that because his handle was made of wood he was one of them.” —Turkish Proverbs permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 3 points 1 week ago (3 children) You do realize that wanting anarchy but supporting secret police and prisons makes you the tree voting for the axe, right? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (2 children) I am not a Leninist. You observed that correctly! Now explain to !Anarchism@lemmy.dbzer0.com why revolutionaries should ignore their oppressors’ information gathering? Disengage me from it. I have gathered enough from you to be aware you don't know anything about revolutionary action. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 1 week ago Nerd permalink fedilink source parent [–] db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 point 1 week ago* If you want to disengage, just reply with "Disengage". The disengage rule is not a way to have the last word in permalink fedilink source parent
[–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 1 week ago (5 children) "it's not a forest, it's a stationary non-animal life." permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (4 children) “The forest was shrinking but the trees kept voting for the axe, for the axe was clever and convinced the trees that because his handle was made of wood he was one of them.” —Turkish Proverbs permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 3 points 1 week ago (3 children) You do realize that wanting anarchy but supporting secret police and prisons makes you the tree voting for the axe, right? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (2 children) I am not a Leninist. You observed that correctly! Now explain to !Anarchism@lemmy.dbzer0.com why revolutionaries should ignore their oppressors’ information gathering? Disengage me from it. I have gathered enough from you to be aware you don't know anything about revolutionary action. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 1 week ago Nerd permalink fedilink source parent [–] db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 point 1 week ago* If you want to disengage, just reply with "Disengage". The disengage rule is not a way to have the last word in permalink fedilink source parent
[–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (4 children) “The forest was shrinking but the trees kept voting for the axe, for the axe was clever and convinced the trees that because his handle was made of wood he was one of them.” —Turkish Proverbs permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 3 points 1 week ago (3 children) You do realize that wanting anarchy but supporting secret police and prisons makes you the tree voting for the axe, right? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (2 children) I am not a Leninist. You observed that correctly! Now explain to !Anarchism@lemmy.dbzer0.com why revolutionaries should ignore their oppressors’ information gathering? Disengage me from it. I have gathered enough from you to be aware you don't know anything about revolutionary action. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 1 week ago Nerd permalink fedilink source parent [–] db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 point 1 week ago* If you want to disengage, just reply with "Disengage". The disengage rule is not a way to have the last word in permalink fedilink source parent
[–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 3 points 1 week ago (3 children) You do realize that wanting anarchy but supporting secret police and prisons makes you the tree voting for the axe, right? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (2 children) I am not a Leninist. You observed that correctly! Now explain to !Anarchism@lemmy.dbzer0.com why revolutionaries should ignore their oppressors’ information gathering? Disengage me from it. I have gathered enough from you to be aware you don't know anything about revolutionary action. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 1 week ago Nerd permalink fedilink source parent [–] db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 point 1 week ago* If you want to disengage, just reply with "Disengage". The disengage rule is not a way to have the last word in permalink fedilink source parent
[–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (2 children) I am not a Leninist. You observed that correctly! Now explain to !Anarchism@lemmy.dbzer0.com why revolutionaries should ignore their oppressors’ information gathering? Disengage me from it. I have gathered enough from you to be aware you don't know anything about revolutionary action. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] mofongo@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 1 week ago Nerd permalink fedilink source parent [–] db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 point 1 week ago* If you want to disengage, just reply with "Disengage". The disengage rule is not a way to have the last word in permalink fedilink source parent
[–] db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 point 1 week ago* If you want to disengage, just reply with "Disengage". The disengage rule is not a way to have the last word in permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Deme@sopuli.xyz 1 point 1 week ago (7 children) The distinction anark argues is that there are outliers that wish injustice that do not desire to reparate & rehabilitate, what would be the corrective action to take? Compost, servitute, banishment? And does he propose something that doesn't involve locking people up? I'll note that plenty of indigenous peoples managed just fine without prisons before colonialism showed up. By the definition of "prison" you're using, even rehabilitative facilities like nordic prisons wouldn't be called prisons. It's a bad definition. I prefer this one: a place of confinement especially for lawbreakers specifically : an institution (such as one under state jurisdiction) for confinement of persons convicted of serious crimes Anyways, the semantics are irrelevant if we focus on those outliers you mention, since reparation and rehabilitation would be out of the picture. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 2 points 1 week ago* (6 children) And does he propose something that doesn’t involve locking people up? He does… we both outlined some examples…. I am asking you what corrective course do you think might work better. indigenous peoples managed just fine without prisons before colonialism showed up. ahistorical assertion. a place of confinement especially for lawbreakers specifically : an institution (such as one under state jurisdiction) for confinement of persons convicted of serious crimes By these definitions, bedrooms and closets constitute as prisons, when timing out/disciplining children. I am unsure how else do you see corrective justice¹ could take place. Wrong doings should be corrected, or not? ¹Anark’s definition. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] Deme@sopuli.xyz 2 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (5 children) He does… we both outlined some examples…. I am asking you what corrective course do you think might work better. The solution he proposes involves locking "sequestered citizens" up in "monitored democratic rehabilitation communities with required rehabilitative measures" in the case of the worst crimes. That's a prison. I'm not going to prescribe a solution to a situation that I have no part in. I think the community in question should decide to handle wrongdoers how they see fit on a case by case basis. ahistorical assertion. I didn't say all of them, I said plenty of.... A couple of examples from Australia and Nigeria. By these definitions, bedrooms and closets constitute as prisons, when timing out/disciplining children Do you think a bedroom or a closet is an institution? It's only the institution surrounding it that differentiates a jail cell from (an often boringly decorated) bedroom. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 0 points 1 week ago* (4 children) I think the community in question should decide to punish wrongdoers how they see fit on a case by case basis. literally what he describes earlier in that video… situation that I have no part in. wait, you're not anarchist? Australia […] shaming or public ridicule[…] exclusion from the community (eg to a particular outstation or another community, or more rarely, total exclusion).[112] exclusion from use of facilities[118] exile to an outstation or another community.[119] Nigeria public shaming, corporal correction, spiritual rites, banishment, and, in some contexts under later influences, corporal fines prescribed by Islamic or colonial law [5]. shaming, and ritual highly credible - the threat of ostracism or spiritual sanction supplied strong social incentives for compliance [5]. creating hybrid institutions (community courts, ADR schemes) that combine customary legitimacy with statutory safeguards [8, 9]. 6.1.2. Social Regulation Through Banishment and Ostracism Banishment served as a major sanction for offenses that carried spiritual pollution or posed a continuing threat to communal safety. According to Nadel [5], offenders guilty of morally dangerous acts-such as sacrilege or persistent violence-could be expelled from the community. Ostracism, a milder variant, was used for kinship violations including incest or breaches of marriage norms. These exclusionary practices embodied the African belief that wrongdoing disrupts both social and spiritual equilibrium [1, 4]. By physically or socially removing the offender, the Nupe community sought to restore balance and avoid misfortune. Literally imprisonment. Do you think a bedroom or a closet is an institution?' The institution is the guardians, the physical cages, the perpetrators, and the victims. It’s only the institution surrounding it that differentiates a jail cell from (an often boringly decorated) bedroom. so like a third party doing this, instead of the folks affected by the wrong doing? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Deme@sopuli.xyz 1 point 1 week ago* (3 children) literally what he describes earlier in that video… And then he says "they should lock people up". wait, you’re not anarchist? I am not partial to the crime or wrongdoing in question. If I am, then I will have an opinion. My point is that prescribing solutions from the outside of a situation is authoritarian. Drawing up a constitution and a model for totally-not-prisons (institutions that will perpetuate themselves at the cost of solving the problems they were built to solve) is authoritarian. Literally imprisonment. If you think that shaming, ostracism, exclusion and exile are forms of imprisonment (which is different from prison as an institution, but we'll get to that) , I don't know what to tell you. Sure, shaming and similar rites probably involve detainment like stocks and stuff, but the timescales involved are way shorter and the purpose is shame, not detainment. Also why did you bold ADR? The institution is the guardians, the physical cages, the perpetrators, and the victims. so like a third party doing this, instead of the folks affected by the wrong doing? You don't know what institutions are? That makes sense. An institution is an established custom, practice, relationship, organization, or behavioral pattern of importance in the life of a community or society. Marriage is an institution. Prison is an institution. They are frameworks that exist independently of the people flowing through them or the physical infrastructure facilitating them. They grow in complexity in response to new problems (like more paperwork for a marriage and organizations establishing new departments, see the organizational charts of any government from a hundred years ago vs. today), they perpetuate themselves and calcify. They are the machines that anarchists rage against. The first sentence of the wikipedia page on anarchism: Anarchism is a mostly far-left political philosophy and movement that seeks to abolish all institutions that perpetuate authority, coercion, or hierarchy... A prison (no matter how rehabilitative or how well managed with democratic oversight) is still an institution that perpetuates authority (of the guards over the inmates for example), and quite obviously coercion. Do you see the contradiction of trying to formulate an institution that enacts coercion in a supposedly anarchistic system? Ostracism and exile for example are much more compatible with anarchism as forms of discouraging bad behavior, because they only limit the positive freedoms of the person. No coercion needed when the community just refuses to engage with the person until they right their wrongs. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (2 children) Family is an institution. Community is an institution. Punishment is an institution. Therefore the act of shaming and excluding someone in isolation from the community as punishment for wrong doings is an institution. I guess we have different definitions of authoritarianism, that the edicts of punishments in aboriginal Australia & Nigeria fit your definition of authoritarianism. Also why did you bold ADR? so like a third party doing this, instead of the folks affected by the wrong doing? re institutions A prison (no matter how rehabilitative or how well managed with democratic oversight) is still an institution that perpetuates authority (of the guards over the inmates for example), and quite obviously coercion. Then aboriginals still coerce punishments in isolation and shaming as imprisonment. contradiction of trying to formulate an institution that enacts coercion in a supposedly anarchistic system? I think this is paradox you can't seem to realize. At what point is wrong doing rehabilitation and reparations coercion, and when is not? The paradox here is how much solidarity and intersection you trying uphold. Unless you think wrong doings shouldn't be coerced at all. No coercion needed when the community just refuses to engage with the person until they right their wrongs. What if the wrong doing was coercions in itself: Like rape, murder, subjugation. How do ostracize and exile a rapist, murderer, and subjugator to cease these coercions on the community? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Deme@sopuli.xyz 1 point 1 week ago (1 child) Coercion != institutional coercion. Spontaneous self defense is an obvious example of coercion that isn't institutional, as in an established practice. If someone punches you in the face, you don't stop to think about what the established customs and practices dictate should be done, no, you punch back. A community kicking someone out because they can't behave, while it would probably end up becoming established practice in time, is not established in that sense before it has become a habit for the community. Humans form institutions all the time, that is unavoidable because problems will pop up that require solutions, and then applying those solutions will become habitual because that's more efficient than thinking every problem over from first principles. That's why anarchism is a never ending struggle with no end and the anarchists within that society would have to start raging against the exile-machine when it starts to exile people who shouldn't be exiled (like maybe people who disapprove of that institution). But setting out to build organized institutions of coercion even before a problem arises that would require a coercive solution that would afterwards become established practice, is backwards. The people who build this hypothetical society should cross that bridge when they get there and hopefully enough of them will realize to constantly keep a sceptical eye on any of those practices so that they don't become too established so as to cause unnecessary harm by sheer inertia. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago Cool. I have a revolution to insurrect. It’ll require a lof of dialogue. But hopefully oppressors surrender. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 2 points 1 week ago* (6 children) And does he propose something that doesn’t involve locking people up? He does… we both outlined some examples…. I am asking you what corrective course do you think might work better. indigenous peoples managed just fine without prisons before colonialism showed up. ahistorical assertion. a place of confinement especially for lawbreakers specifically : an institution (such as one under state jurisdiction) for confinement of persons convicted of serious crimes By these definitions, bedrooms and closets constitute as prisons, when timing out/disciplining children. I am unsure how else do you see corrective justice¹ could take place. Wrong doings should be corrected, or not? ¹Anark’s definition. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] Deme@sopuli.xyz 2 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (5 children) He does… we both outlined some examples…. I am asking you what corrective course do you think might work better. The solution he proposes involves locking "sequestered citizens" up in "monitored democratic rehabilitation communities with required rehabilitative measures" in the case of the worst crimes. That's a prison. I'm not going to prescribe a solution to a situation that I have no part in. I think the community in question should decide to handle wrongdoers how they see fit on a case by case basis. ahistorical assertion. I didn't say all of them, I said plenty of.... A couple of examples from Australia and Nigeria. By these definitions, bedrooms and closets constitute as prisons, when timing out/disciplining children Do you think a bedroom or a closet is an institution? It's only the institution surrounding it that differentiates a jail cell from (an often boringly decorated) bedroom. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 0 points 1 week ago* (4 children) I think the community in question should decide to punish wrongdoers how they see fit on a case by case basis. literally what he describes earlier in that video… situation that I have no part in. wait, you're not anarchist? Australia […] shaming or public ridicule[…] exclusion from the community (eg to a particular outstation or another community, or more rarely, total exclusion).[112] exclusion from use of facilities[118] exile to an outstation or another community.[119] Nigeria public shaming, corporal correction, spiritual rites, banishment, and, in some contexts under later influences, corporal fines prescribed by Islamic or colonial law [5]. shaming, and ritual highly credible - the threat of ostracism or spiritual sanction supplied strong social incentives for compliance [5]. creating hybrid institutions (community courts, ADR schemes) that combine customary legitimacy with statutory safeguards [8, 9]. 6.1.2. Social Regulation Through Banishment and Ostracism Banishment served as a major sanction for offenses that carried spiritual pollution or posed a continuing threat to communal safety. According to Nadel [5], offenders guilty of morally dangerous acts-such as sacrilege or persistent violence-could be expelled from the community. Ostracism, a milder variant, was used for kinship violations including incest or breaches of marriage norms. These exclusionary practices embodied the African belief that wrongdoing disrupts both social and spiritual equilibrium [1, 4]. By physically or socially removing the offender, the Nupe community sought to restore balance and avoid misfortune. Literally imprisonment. Do you think a bedroom or a closet is an institution?' The institution is the guardians, the physical cages, the perpetrators, and the victims. It’s only the institution surrounding it that differentiates a jail cell from (an often boringly decorated) bedroom. so like a third party doing this, instead of the folks affected by the wrong doing? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Deme@sopuli.xyz 1 point 1 week ago* (3 children) literally what he describes earlier in that video… And then he says "they should lock people up". wait, you’re not anarchist? I am not partial to the crime or wrongdoing in question. If I am, then I will have an opinion. My point is that prescribing solutions from the outside of a situation is authoritarian. Drawing up a constitution and a model for totally-not-prisons (institutions that will perpetuate themselves at the cost of solving the problems they were built to solve) is authoritarian. Literally imprisonment. If you think that shaming, ostracism, exclusion and exile are forms of imprisonment (which is different from prison as an institution, but we'll get to that) , I don't know what to tell you. Sure, shaming and similar rites probably involve detainment like stocks and stuff, but the timescales involved are way shorter and the purpose is shame, not detainment. Also why did you bold ADR? The institution is the guardians, the physical cages, the perpetrators, and the victims. so like a third party doing this, instead of the folks affected by the wrong doing? You don't know what institutions are? That makes sense. An institution is an established custom, practice, relationship, organization, or behavioral pattern of importance in the life of a community or society. Marriage is an institution. Prison is an institution. They are frameworks that exist independently of the people flowing through them or the physical infrastructure facilitating them. They grow in complexity in response to new problems (like more paperwork for a marriage and organizations establishing new departments, see the organizational charts of any government from a hundred years ago vs. today), they perpetuate themselves and calcify. They are the machines that anarchists rage against. The first sentence of the wikipedia page on anarchism: Anarchism is a mostly far-left political philosophy and movement that seeks to abolish all institutions that perpetuate authority, coercion, or hierarchy... A prison (no matter how rehabilitative or how well managed with democratic oversight) is still an institution that perpetuates authority (of the guards over the inmates for example), and quite obviously coercion. Do you see the contradiction of trying to formulate an institution that enacts coercion in a supposedly anarchistic system? Ostracism and exile for example are much more compatible with anarchism as forms of discouraging bad behavior, because they only limit the positive freedoms of the person. No coercion needed when the community just refuses to engage with the person until they right their wrongs. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (2 children) Family is an institution. Community is an institution. Punishment is an institution. Therefore the act of shaming and excluding someone in isolation from the community as punishment for wrong doings is an institution. I guess we have different definitions of authoritarianism, that the edicts of punishments in aboriginal Australia & Nigeria fit your definition of authoritarianism. Also why did you bold ADR? so like a third party doing this, instead of the folks affected by the wrong doing? re institutions A prison (no matter how rehabilitative or how well managed with democratic oversight) is still an institution that perpetuates authority (of the guards over the inmates for example), and quite obviously coercion. Then aboriginals still coerce punishments in isolation and shaming as imprisonment. contradiction of trying to formulate an institution that enacts coercion in a supposedly anarchistic system? I think this is paradox you can't seem to realize. At what point is wrong doing rehabilitation and reparations coercion, and when is not? The paradox here is how much solidarity and intersection you trying uphold. Unless you think wrong doings shouldn't be coerced at all. No coercion needed when the community just refuses to engage with the person until they right their wrongs. What if the wrong doing was coercions in itself: Like rape, murder, subjugation. How do ostracize and exile a rapist, murderer, and subjugator to cease these coercions on the community? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Deme@sopuli.xyz 1 point 1 week ago (1 child) Coercion != institutional coercion. Spontaneous self defense is an obvious example of coercion that isn't institutional, as in an established practice. If someone punches you in the face, you don't stop to think about what the established customs and practices dictate should be done, no, you punch back. A community kicking someone out because they can't behave, while it would probably end up becoming established practice in time, is not established in that sense before it has become a habit for the community. Humans form institutions all the time, that is unavoidable because problems will pop up that require solutions, and then applying those solutions will become habitual because that's more efficient than thinking every problem over from first principles. That's why anarchism is a never ending struggle with no end and the anarchists within that society would have to start raging against the exile-machine when it starts to exile people who shouldn't be exiled (like maybe people who disapprove of that institution). But setting out to build organized institutions of coercion even before a problem arises that would require a coercive solution that would afterwards become established practice, is backwards. The people who build this hypothetical society should cross that bridge when they get there and hopefully enough of them will realize to constantly keep a sceptical eye on any of those practices so that they don't become too established so as to cause unnecessary harm by sheer inertia. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago Cool. I have a revolution to insurrect. It’ll require a lof of dialogue. But hopefully oppressors surrender. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Deme@sopuli.xyz 2 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (5 children) He does… we both outlined some examples…. I am asking you what corrective course do you think might work better. The solution he proposes involves locking "sequestered citizens" up in "monitored democratic rehabilitation communities with required rehabilitative measures" in the case of the worst crimes. That's a prison. I'm not going to prescribe a solution to a situation that I have no part in. I think the community in question should decide to handle wrongdoers how they see fit on a case by case basis. ahistorical assertion. I didn't say all of them, I said plenty of.... A couple of examples from Australia and Nigeria. By these definitions, bedrooms and closets constitute as prisons, when timing out/disciplining children Do you think a bedroom or a closet is an institution? It's only the institution surrounding it that differentiates a jail cell from (an often boringly decorated) bedroom. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 0 points 1 week ago* (4 children) I think the community in question should decide to punish wrongdoers how they see fit on a case by case basis. literally what he describes earlier in that video… situation that I have no part in. wait, you're not anarchist? Australia […] shaming or public ridicule[…] exclusion from the community (eg to a particular outstation or another community, or more rarely, total exclusion).[112] exclusion from use of facilities[118] exile to an outstation or another community.[119] Nigeria public shaming, corporal correction, spiritual rites, banishment, and, in some contexts under later influences, corporal fines prescribed by Islamic or colonial law [5]. shaming, and ritual highly credible - the threat of ostracism or spiritual sanction supplied strong social incentives for compliance [5]. creating hybrid institutions (community courts, ADR schemes) that combine customary legitimacy with statutory safeguards [8, 9]. 6.1.2. Social Regulation Through Banishment and Ostracism Banishment served as a major sanction for offenses that carried spiritual pollution or posed a continuing threat to communal safety. According to Nadel [5], offenders guilty of morally dangerous acts-such as sacrilege or persistent violence-could be expelled from the community. Ostracism, a milder variant, was used for kinship violations including incest or breaches of marriage norms. These exclusionary practices embodied the African belief that wrongdoing disrupts both social and spiritual equilibrium [1, 4]. By physically or socially removing the offender, the Nupe community sought to restore balance and avoid misfortune. Literally imprisonment. Do you think a bedroom or a closet is an institution?' The institution is the guardians, the physical cages, the perpetrators, and the victims. It’s only the institution surrounding it that differentiates a jail cell from (an often boringly decorated) bedroom. so like a third party doing this, instead of the folks affected by the wrong doing? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Deme@sopuli.xyz 1 point 1 week ago* (3 children) literally what he describes earlier in that video… And then he says "they should lock people up". wait, you’re not anarchist? I am not partial to the crime or wrongdoing in question. If I am, then I will have an opinion. My point is that prescribing solutions from the outside of a situation is authoritarian. Drawing up a constitution and a model for totally-not-prisons (institutions that will perpetuate themselves at the cost of solving the problems they were built to solve) is authoritarian. Literally imprisonment. If you think that shaming, ostracism, exclusion and exile are forms of imprisonment (which is different from prison as an institution, but we'll get to that) , I don't know what to tell you. Sure, shaming and similar rites probably involve detainment like stocks and stuff, but the timescales involved are way shorter and the purpose is shame, not detainment. Also why did you bold ADR? The institution is the guardians, the physical cages, the perpetrators, and the victims. so like a third party doing this, instead of the folks affected by the wrong doing? You don't know what institutions are? That makes sense. An institution is an established custom, practice, relationship, organization, or behavioral pattern of importance in the life of a community or society. Marriage is an institution. Prison is an institution. They are frameworks that exist independently of the people flowing through them or the physical infrastructure facilitating them. They grow in complexity in response to new problems (like more paperwork for a marriage and organizations establishing new departments, see the organizational charts of any government from a hundred years ago vs. today), they perpetuate themselves and calcify. They are the machines that anarchists rage against. The first sentence of the wikipedia page on anarchism: Anarchism is a mostly far-left political philosophy and movement that seeks to abolish all institutions that perpetuate authority, coercion, or hierarchy... A prison (no matter how rehabilitative or how well managed with democratic oversight) is still an institution that perpetuates authority (of the guards over the inmates for example), and quite obviously coercion. Do you see the contradiction of trying to formulate an institution that enacts coercion in a supposedly anarchistic system? Ostracism and exile for example are much more compatible with anarchism as forms of discouraging bad behavior, because they only limit the positive freedoms of the person. No coercion needed when the community just refuses to engage with the person until they right their wrongs. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (2 children) Family is an institution. Community is an institution. Punishment is an institution. Therefore the act of shaming and excluding someone in isolation from the community as punishment for wrong doings is an institution. I guess we have different definitions of authoritarianism, that the edicts of punishments in aboriginal Australia & Nigeria fit your definition of authoritarianism. Also why did you bold ADR? so like a third party doing this, instead of the folks affected by the wrong doing? re institutions A prison (no matter how rehabilitative or how well managed with democratic oversight) is still an institution that perpetuates authority (of the guards over the inmates for example), and quite obviously coercion. Then aboriginals still coerce punishments in isolation and shaming as imprisonment. contradiction of trying to formulate an institution that enacts coercion in a supposedly anarchistic system? I think this is paradox you can't seem to realize. At what point is wrong doing rehabilitation and reparations coercion, and when is not? The paradox here is how much solidarity and intersection you trying uphold. Unless you think wrong doings shouldn't be coerced at all. No coercion needed when the community just refuses to engage with the person until they right their wrongs. What if the wrong doing was coercions in itself: Like rape, murder, subjugation. How do ostracize and exile a rapist, murderer, and subjugator to cease these coercions on the community? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Deme@sopuli.xyz 1 point 1 week ago (1 child) Coercion != institutional coercion. Spontaneous self defense is an obvious example of coercion that isn't institutional, as in an established practice. If someone punches you in the face, you don't stop to think about what the established customs and practices dictate should be done, no, you punch back. A community kicking someone out because they can't behave, while it would probably end up becoming established practice in time, is not established in that sense before it has become a habit for the community. Humans form institutions all the time, that is unavoidable because problems will pop up that require solutions, and then applying those solutions will become habitual because that's more efficient than thinking every problem over from first principles. That's why anarchism is a never ending struggle with no end and the anarchists within that society would have to start raging against the exile-machine when it starts to exile people who shouldn't be exiled (like maybe people who disapprove of that institution). But setting out to build organized institutions of coercion even before a problem arises that would require a coercive solution that would afterwards become established practice, is backwards. The people who build this hypothetical society should cross that bridge when they get there and hopefully enough of them will realize to constantly keep a sceptical eye on any of those practices so that they don't become too established so as to cause unnecessary harm by sheer inertia. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago Cool. I have a revolution to insurrect. It’ll require a lof of dialogue. But hopefully oppressors surrender. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 0 points 1 week ago* (4 children) I think the community in question should decide to punish wrongdoers how they see fit on a case by case basis. literally what he describes earlier in that video… situation that I have no part in. wait, you're not anarchist? Australia […] shaming or public ridicule[…] exclusion from the community (eg to a particular outstation or another community, or more rarely, total exclusion).[112] exclusion from use of facilities[118] exile to an outstation or another community.[119] Nigeria public shaming, corporal correction, spiritual rites, banishment, and, in some contexts under later influences, corporal fines prescribed by Islamic or colonial law [5]. shaming, and ritual highly credible - the threat of ostracism or spiritual sanction supplied strong social incentives for compliance [5]. creating hybrid institutions (community courts, ADR schemes) that combine customary legitimacy with statutory safeguards [8, 9]. 6.1.2. Social Regulation Through Banishment and Ostracism Banishment served as a major sanction for offenses that carried spiritual pollution or posed a continuing threat to communal safety. According to Nadel [5], offenders guilty of morally dangerous acts-such as sacrilege or persistent violence-could be expelled from the community. Ostracism, a milder variant, was used for kinship violations including incest or breaches of marriage norms. These exclusionary practices embodied the African belief that wrongdoing disrupts both social and spiritual equilibrium [1, 4]. By physically or socially removing the offender, the Nupe community sought to restore balance and avoid misfortune. Literally imprisonment. Do you think a bedroom or a closet is an institution?' The institution is the guardians, the physical cages, the perpetrators, and the victims. It’s only the institution surrounding it that differentiates a jail cell from (an often boringly decorated) bedroom. so like a third party doing this, instead of the folks affected by the wrong doing? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Deme@sopuli.xyz 1 point 1 week ago* (3 children) literally what he describes earlier in that video… And then he says "they should lock people up". wait, you’re not anarchist? I am not partial to the crime or wrongdoing in question. If I am, then I will have an opinion. My point is that prescribing solutions from the outside of a situation is authoritarian. Drawing up a constitution and a model for totally-not-prisons (institutions that will perpetuate themselves at the cost of solving the problems they were built to solve) is authoritarian. Literally imprisonment. If you think that shaming, ostracism, exclusion and exile are forms of imprisonment (which is different from prison as an institution, but we'll get to that) , I don't know what to tell you. Sure, shaming and similar rites probably involve detainment like stocks and stuff, but the timescales involved are way shorter and the purpose is shame, not detainment. Also why did you bold ADR? The institution is the guardians, the physical cages, the perpetrators, and the victims. so like a third party doing this, instead of the folks affected by the wrong doing? You don't know what institutions are? That makes sense. An institution is an established custom, practice, relationship, organization, or behavioral pattern of importance in the life of a community or society. Marriage is an institution. Prison is an institution. They are frameworks that exist independently of the people flowing through them or the physical infrastructure facilitating them. They grow in complexity in response to new problems (like more paperwork for a marriage and organizations establishing new departments, see the organizational charts of any government from a hundred years ago vs. today), they perpetuate themselves and calcify. They are the machines that anarchists rage against. The first sentence of the wikipedia page on anarchism: Anarchism is a mostly far-left political philosophy and movement that seeks to abolish all institutions that perpetuate authority, coercion, or hierarchy... A prison (no matter how rehabilitative or how well managed with democratic oversight) is still an institution that perpetuates authority (of the guards over the inmates for example), and quite obviously coercion. Do you see the contradiction of trying to formulate an institution that enacts coercion in a supposedly anarchistic system? Ostracism and exile for example are much more compatible with anarchism as forms of discouraging bad behavior, because they only limit the positive freedoms of the person. No coercion needed when the community just refuses to engage with the person until they right their wrongs. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (2 children) Family is an institution. Community is an institution. Punishment is an institution. Therefore the act of shaming and excluding someone in isolation from the community as punishment for wrong doings is an institution. I guess we have different definitions of authoritarianism, that the edicts of punishments in aboriginal Australia & Nigeria fit your definition of authoritarianism. Also why did you bold ADR? so like a third party doing this, instead of the folks affected by the wrong doing? re institutions A prison (no matter how rehabilitative or how well managed with democratic oversight) is still an institution that perpetuates authority (of the guards over the inmates for example), and quite obviously coercion. Then aboriginals still coerce punishments in isolation and shaming as imprisonment. contradiction of trying to formulate an institution that enacts coercion in a supposedly anarchistic system? I think this is paradox you can't seem to realize. At what point is wrong doing rehabilitation and reparations coercion, and when is not? The paradox here is how much solidarity and intersection you trying uphold. Unless you think wrong doings shouldn't be coerced at all. No coercion needed when the community just refuses to engage with the person until they right their wrongs. What if the wrong doing was coercions in itself: Like rape, murder, subjugation. How do ostracize and exile a rapist, murderer, and subjugator to cease these coercions on the community? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Deme@sopuli.xyz 1 point 1 week ago (1 child) Coercion != institutional coercion. Spontaneous self defense is an obvious example of coercion that isn't institutional, as in an established practice. If someone punches you in the face, you don't stop to think about what the established customs and practices dictate should be done, no, you punch back. A community kicking someone out because they can't behave, while it would probably end up becoming established practice in time, is not established in that sense before it has become a habit for the community. Humans form institutions all the time, that is unavoidable because problems will pop up that require solutions, and then applying those solutions will become habitual because that's more efficient than thinking every problem over from first principles. That's why anarchism is a never ending struggle with no end and the anarchists within that society would have to start raging against the exile-machine when it starts to exile people who shouldn't be exiled (like maybe people who disapprove of that institution). But setting out to build organized institutions of coercion even before a problem arises that would require a coercive solution that would afterwards become established practice, is backwards. The people who build this hypothetical society should cross that bridge when they get there and hopefully enough of them will realize to constantly keep a sceptical eye on any of those practices so that they don't become too established so as to cause unnecessary harm by sheer inertia. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago Cool. I have a revolution to insurrect. It’ll require a lof of dialogue. But hopefully oppressors surrender. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Deme@sopuli.xyz 1 point 1 week ago* (3 children) literally what he describes earlier in that video… And then he says "they should lock people up". wait, you’re not anarchist? I am not partial to the crime or wrongdoing in question. If I am, then I will have an opinion. My point is that prescribing solutions from the outside of a situation is authoritarian. Drawing up a constitution and a model for totally-not-prisons (institutions that will perpetuate themselves at the cost of solving the problems they were built to solve) is authoritarian. Literally imprisonment. If you think that shaming, ostracism, exclusion and exile are forms of imprisonment (which is different from prison as an institution, but we'll get to that) , I don't know what to tell you. Sure, shaming and similar rites probably involve detainment like stocks and stuff, but the timescales involved are way shorter and the purpose is shame, not detainment. Also why did you bold ADR? The institution is the guardians, the physical cages, the perpetrators, and the victims. so like a third party doing this, instead of the folks affected by the wrong doing? You don't know what institutions are? That makes sense. An institution is an established custom, practice, relationship, organization, or behavioral pattern of importance in the life of a community or society. Marriage is an institution. Prison is an institution. They are frameworks that exist independently of the people flowing through them or the physical infrastructure facilitating them. They grow in complexity in response to new problems (like more paperwork for a marriage and organizations establishing new departments, see the organizational charts of any government from a hundred years ago vs. today), they perpetuate themselves and calcify. They are the machines that anarchists rage against. The first sentence of the wikipedia page on anarchism: Anarchism is a mostly far-left political philosophy and movement that seeks to abolish all institutions that perpetuate authority, coercion, or hierarchy... A prison (no matter how rehabilitative or how well managed with democratic oversight) is still an institution that perpetuates authority (of the guards over the inmates for example), and quite obviously coercion. Do you see the contradiction of trying to formulate an institution that enacts coercion in a supposedly anarchistic system? Ostracism and exile for example are much more compatible with anarchism as forms of discouraging bad behavior, because they only limit the positive freedoms of the person. No coercion needed when the community just refuses to engage with the person until they right their wrongs. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (2 children) Family is an institution. Community is an institution. Punishment is an institution. Therefore the act of shaming and excluding someone in isolation from the community as punishment for wrong doings is an institution. I guess we have different definitions of authoritarianism, that the edicts of punishments in aboriginal Australia & Nigeria fit your definition of authoritarianism. Also why did you bold ADR? so like a third party doing this, instead of the folks affected by the wrong doing? re institutions A prison (no matter how rehabilitative or how well managed with democratic oversight) is still an institution that perpetuates authority (of the guards over the inmates for example), and quite obviously coercion. Then aboriginals still coerce punishments in isolation and shaming as imprisonment. contradiction of trying to formulate an institution that enacts coercion in a supposedly anarchistic system? I think this is paradox you can't seem to realize. At what point is wrong doing rehabilitation and reparations coercion, and when is not? The paradox here is how much solidarity and intersection you trying uphold. Unless you think wrong doings shouldn't be coerced at all. No coercion needed when the community just refuses to engage with the person until they right their wrongs. What if the wrong doing was coercions in itself: Like rape, murder, subjugation. How do ostracize and exile a rapist, murderer, and subjugator to cease these coercions on the community? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Deme@sopuli.xyz 1 point 1 week ago (1 child) Coercion != institutional coercion. Spontaneous self defense is an obvious example of coercion that isn't institutional, as in an established practice. If someone punches you in the face, you don't stop to think about what the established customs and practices dictate should be done, no, you punch back. A community kicking someone out because they can't behave, while it would probably end up becoming established practice in time, is not established in that sense before it has become a habit for the community. Humans form institutions all the time, that is unavoidable because problems will pop up that require solutions, and then applying those solutions will become habitual because that's more efficient than thinking every problem over from first principles. That's why anarchism is a never ending struggle with no end and the anarchists within that society would have to start raging against the exile-machine when it starts to exile people who shouldn't be exiled (like maybe people who disapprove of that institution). But setting out to build organized institutions of coercion even before a problem arises that would require a coercive solution that would afterwards become established practice, is backwards. The people who build this hypothetical society should cross that bridge when they get there and hopefully enough of them will realize to constantly keep a sceptical eye on any of those practices so that they don't become too established so as to cause unnecessary harm by sheer inertia. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago Cool. I have a revolution to insurrect. It’ll require a lof of dialogue. But hopefully oppressors surrender. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago (2 children) Family is an institution. Community is an institution. Punishment is an institution. Therefore the act of shaming and excluding someone in isolation from the community as punishment for wrong doings is an institution. I guess we have different definitions of authoritarianism, that the edicts of punishments in aboriginal Australia & Nigeria fit your definition of authoritarianism. Also why did you bold ADR? so like a third party doing this, instead of the folks affected by the wrong doing? re institutions A prison (no matter how rehabilitative or how well managed with democratic oversight) is still an institution that perpetuates authority (of the guards over the inmates for example), and quite obviously coercion. Then aboriginals still coerce punishments in isolation and shaming as imprisonment. contradiction of trying to formulate an institution that enacts coercion in a supposedly anarchistic system? I think this is paradox you can't seem to realize. At what point is wrong doing rehabilitation and reparations coercion, and when is not? The paradox here is how much solidarity and intersection you trying uphold. Unless you think wrong doings shouldn't be coerced at all. No coercion needed when the community just refuses to engage with the person until they right their wrongs. What if the wrong doing was coercions in itself: Like rape, murder, subjugation. How do ostracize and exile a rapist, murderer, and subjugator to cease these coercions on the community? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Deme@sopuli.xyz 1 point 1 week ago (1 child) Coercion != institutional coercion. Spontaneous self defense is an obvious example of coercion that isn't institutional, as in an established practice. If someone punches you in the face, you don't stop to think about what the established customs and practices dictate should be done, no, you punch back. A community kicking someone out because they can't behave, while it would probably end up becoming established practice in time, is not established in that sense before it has become a habit for the community. Humans form institutions all the time, that is unavoidable because problems will pop up that require solutions, and then applying those solutions will become habitual because that's more efficient than thinking every problem over from first principles. That's why anarchism is a never ending struggle with no end and the anarchists within that society would have to start raging against the exile-machine when it starts to exile people who shouldn't be exiled (like maybe people who disapprove of that institution). But setting out to build organized institutions of coercion even before a problem arises that would require a coercive solution that would afterwards become established practice, is backwards. The people who build this hypothetical society should cross that bridge when they get there and hopefully enough of them will realize to constantly keep a sceptical eye on any of those practices so that they don't become too established so as to cause unnecessary harm by sheer inertia. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago Cool. I have a revolution to insurrect. It’ll require a lof of dialogue. But hopefully oppressors surrender. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Deme@sopuli.xyz 1 point 1 week ago (1 child) Coercion != institutional coercion. Spontaneous self defense is an obvious example of coercion that isn't institutional, as in an established practice. If someone punches you in the face, you don't stop to think about what the established customs and practices dictate should be done, no, you punch back. A community kicking someone out because they can't behave, while it would probably end up becoming established practice in time, is not established in that sense before it has become a habit for the community. Humans form institutions all the time, that is unavoidable because problems will pop up that require solutions, and then applying those solutions will become habitual because that's more efficient than thinking every problem over from first principles. That's why anarchism is a never ending struggle with no end and the anarchists within that society would have to start raging against the exile-machine when it starts to exile people who shouldn't be exiled (like maybe people who disapprove of that institution). But setting out to build organized institutions of coercion even before a problem arises that would require a coercive solution that would afterwards become established practice, is backwards. The people who build this hypothetical society should cross that bridge when they get there and hopefully enough of them will realize to constantly keep a sceptical eye on any of those practices so that they don't become too established so as to cause unnecessary harm by sheer inertia. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago Cool. I have a revolution to insurrect. It’ll require a lof of dialogue. But hopefully oppressors surrender. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] waltersf@bookwyr.me 1 point 1 week ago Cool. I have a revolution to insurrect. It’ll require a lof of dialogue. But hopefully oppressors surrender. permalink fedilink source parent