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  • [–] 25 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Nope. You can respect someone without worshiping them.

    I'm an anarchist so I wouldn't even go so far as to say I respect Mao.

    Do I think Bernie and AOC are better than most politicians? Of course. If I found out they were sexual predators I'd still say throw them in jail.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    Sure, but was it the people who demanded that happen or was it the so-called communist government? By the time the U.S.S.R went away it had become sort of a landmark, so I can see why they didn't get rid of it at that point.

    People in North Korea are required to have pictures of pictures of the Un's on penalty of death. How they actually feel about him is anyone's guess. Despite what they say he's no leftist though at any rate.

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  • [–] 14 points 1 year ago* (2 children)

    If AOC and Bernie were on the list, Dems would still say lock them up. Dems don't care who is on the list, they want justice for it.

    Now Dems in Congress? That's a different story. MAGA wants everyone to go down, but would happy glare over every single time Trump is mentioned. And you know that.

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  • Bernie's not even a democrat. He ran as one because he needed a backing. Much like Trump isn't a Republican, they just ate his shit up. He's said the economy does better under Democrats, and ran for President under the Reform Party out of California before he realized the Republicans would support him more. The reform party was where Buchanan got all the KKK / white nationalist support back in the 90's.

    A quote from Trump from the time that was telling. "It's very possible that I could be the first presidential candidate to run and make money on it."

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  • [–] 28 points 1 year ago (24 children)

    The difference between worship and respect is that one is earned and the other is not.

    If you worship someone you follow them unconditionally no matter what they do. They can openly brag about molesting women, they can get convicted felonies in 34 counts, they can make life hell for a large part of the population, and someone who worships that person will just lap it all up and follow right along.

    Contrary to that, respect can be lost quite quickly, as seen with a lot of people who were very popular with left-wingers. 10 years ago most leftwingers loved Musk. How many left-wingers do you see that still worship Musk and follow his every mood?

    Same holds true with every other person on the left who failed. They are gone in an instant.

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  • [–] 13 points 1 year ago (9 children)

    North Korea is far left

    I mean, if you make a line where dictatorship is on the far left and democracy is on the far right, then yeah, NK is "far left". But on a more real note, there's very little difference between the Kim dynasty and absolutist monarchies, or the dictatorships of Francisco Franco (Spain) and Antonio Salazar (Portugal), I doubt any of those were ever considered "political left" in any manner.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    Economy and politics are intrinsically tied to one another, no matter how much some economy masters try to say otherwise. Regulations, tariffs and taxes happen because of political pressure and they all have a very direct and measurable effect on the economy. Democracies may not directly control economies like dictatorships can, but they can and do heavily influence it to work one way or another, via tax or tax breaks, easier or harder credit, etc. Culture also plays an important role, even if the majority of economy academics downplay or ignore it, just like they downplay or ignore the importance of nature, but that's a different discussion.

    it was founded as a Marxist state

    Alright, can you tell me what are some of the marxist teachings that NK applies to how it runs the state and the economy? Because "being founded as" and "actually run as" are not the same. I mean, it's official name is "Democratic People's Republic of Korea". It's obviously not democratic and barely qualifies as a republic

    confusing authoritarianism/liberalism with left/right ideologies

    I'm not. Left wing ideology usually leans towards "the govt and economy should work for the good of the people". Communism, which is as "far left" as it typically goes, assumes that the people collectively own all the means of production and government becomes unnecessary. Which leads to the next point

    It has public ownership

    NK doesn't have "public" ownership, as in, the people cannot say that they collectively own anything, and literally have no say in how anything works, everything belongs to and is run according to the will of the state (or, more accurately, the current leader). Like I said before, not different from an absolutist monarchy. Unless you can argue that the majority of Kim's policies are all for the good of the NK people, he cannot be considered "left".

    Funny how you mentioned Spain and Portugal but avoided Italy.

    What, you gonna tell me that Mussolini was a far left politician?

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    I love how this reply of yours is just a bunch of bad faith arguments, especially the first part that neatly ignores the fact that the state owns everything in NK, not unlike how a company owns and runs its property. I fully expect you to say that nazi germany was left wing because "national SOCIALISM!!!!!!!!!!!"

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  • [–] 11 points 1 year ago* (11 children)

    Uff... again someone who thinks that politics are binary and left is left and right is right. Sure, a leader cult dictator is exactly the same as a liberal social democracy. All the same, correct?

    The North Korean political system is close to identical to Nazi Germany. Another "far left" country then, correct?

    We all know that liberty, freedom of personal expression and equality are the main ideals of North Korea, correct?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (7 children)

    I expected that anyone who is actually following the discussion would understand that when we are talking about left and right we are talking about left and right in the year 2025 and not in the year 1958, and that we are talking about left and right in the west and not left and right in China or in countries that haven't existed in 30+ years.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (5 children)

    Because it's some wildly different political movements with wildly different goals and ideals?

    If you argue that all left movements throught time and space are identical, just because they are using the same rough label, then you are either argueing in bad faith or out of severe ignorance.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (3 children)

    Again, we were talking about a very specific left. And you have problems with understanding things like context.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (2 children)

    I believe that the general comment about the very specific left is false, and I gave examples why I think it is false.

    I haven't yet heard any argument (never mind a good one) for why the statement that "the American left will never worship a politican" is true.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Man, these guys really just hated being associated with Stalin and Mao so much that they're not picking up what you're putting down. You're correct, left wing movements can absolutely be led by authoritarians with a cult of personality. That said, I think most leftists view authoritarianism as something so abhorrent that they don't associate those leaders with actual leftist policies.

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  • [–] 13 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    The subject is worship, or maybe even "deify", so no we fucking don't.

    I guarantee if Bernie/AOC did 1% of the things Trump does, their support would evaporate. I know I personally would support their primary challengers...

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    Your definition of worship is weirdly loose. Like bizarrely loose. Following someone on Twitter, which is a weird thing to do in itself because why would you be on a Nazi website which says a lot about her I think, doesn't mean you worship them. Do I worship windy.com because I'm subscribed to their weather app? Your neighbor says hi to you where they worshiping you? Oh I turned on the TV I was worshiping anything I'm watching. What just a completely ludicrous definition.

    The context here is conservatives who worship Donald Trump to the point where they build golden Idols for him. And you're comparing getting alerts when someone post a message as the same thing. Wow

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago (12 children)

    Lenin, Mao Zedong

    No one in "the left" supports far right authorizations...

    The confusion may be you're not aware far right authoritarians lie constantly, especially about what they support and why they support it

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    Here, we see the “enlightened centrist” in his habitat of false equivalence…

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (3 children)

    I know the chart you’re referring to, but we’re speaking in the context of US politics here. The wave function has collapsed to “right” = authoritarian and “left” = liberal. So, your original assertion presents the false equivalence that has allowed us to get to this current state.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    I dunno man, that’s pretty flimsy. I can’t even name a union leader. Years of right-wing authoritarianism have rendered unions ineffective and obsolete.

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  • Yeah. Union leaders are usually unknown, unless you are part of the that union. Like I said. Local.

    Lots of cop union leaders are locally famous. Even though they are a tool of authority, they still fight for left wing ideals of workers rights and privileges (often to the detriment of the populace).

    I'm choosing North American examples to stay in the thread's topic. South America and Europe have more famous left wing leaders that are worshiped.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    You might be confusing Lenin with Stalin.

    Stalin was the authoritarian, Lenin was more of a leftist who aimed to empower the working class and had a relatively more democratic and pragmatic point of view compared to Stalin. Lenin actually warned people about Stalin and advocated that he be removed from power.

    Not that I don't have major issues with Lenin's approach as well, but it was far better than Stalin and I believe he meant well at least.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Lenin complained in his letters that[29] his bureaucratic "apparatus has already become gigantic — in some places excessively so — and under such conditions a “personal dictatorship” is entirely unrealizable and attempts to realize it would only be harmful."[31] Loginov explains that Lenin attempted to compensate this "lack of real power" with either with "abundance of decrees" or "simply with strong words."[29]

    The Bolsheviks also used terror as a means to dissuade unrest. On August 20, 1918 Lenin wrote to Nikolai Semashko, 'I congratulate you on your energetic suppression of the kulaks and White Guards in the district. We must strike while the iron's hot and not lose a minute, organize the poor of the district, confiscate all the grain and all the property of the rebellious kulaks, hang the kulak ringleaders, mobilize and arm the poor under reliable leaders out of our own unit, arrest hostages from among the wealthy and hold them.'[32]

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Terror

    Lenin wanted to be an authortarian and publicly complained his followers weren't mobbing up to kill more people he politically disagreed with...

    So yeah, I stand by my comment.

    Lenin intentionally set the stage for Stalin, but would have done worse if he had the following.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    I'm glad you're out here correcting people. I'm definitely a layman, but as I see it the entire concept of the Vanguard is immediately antithetical to communism, so I think Leninism is at best a bastardization of Marxist communism. Again, at least as far as my very uneducated opinion goes based on my understanding

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago* (1 child)

    Interesting I'll look more into that. Admittedly I don't have a super deep understanding of all the intricacies of that era and must have got some bad information.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

    No worries.

    It was over a century ago and pretty much the only people who talk about him still are his worshippers.

    But as a general rule of thumb:

    Anyone that says they're a socialist/communist while living in a palace and ordering their followers to mob up and kill people for disagreeing with their leader...

    They're really a far right authoritarian

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago (8 children)

    Not all leftists are the same, mate. For example, anarchists would love to kill the Bolsheviks. Bolsheviks would just love to kill everyone. Look at the history of Spanish Republicans during the Spanish Civil War, then tell me if they did not even shoot at each other at any point.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    Context makes it clear we're talking about liberals in the US today.

    Your point is pointlessly pedantic.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (4 children)

    The Roosevelts are widely applauded by the US left, but they don't really worship them, and many are ready to admit they are flawed. Teddy was an imperialist despite being progressive for the time. FDR was an improvement but the Japanese internment camp was a stain in his legacy.

    The communists would be more into cult of personality, but most American left are not communists and rightfully reject them.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (3 children)

    So, do you accept or reject the statement that the American left would never worship a politician?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (2 children)

    If the communists are dominant, then sure (but even so, there are different kinds of communists).

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    Weath inequality in the US is currently higher than during the French revolution, and rising.

    I don't think hard-core communism will be necessary.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago*

    One of the main reason thus far as to why communism hasn't been rearing its head to oppose the rising fascism, is because many people still have a living memory on what its like living under the system. I would give it a generation or two before communism becomes vogue again; kinda like how fascism is on the rise again because those who lived under it are gradually fading to tell the story. And the younger generation don't have the first hand knowledge and experience to actively avoid it.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago* (5 children)

    I previously voted republican and was raised in the fox news soup. Its cult worship behavior that forces them to worship their leader. Its a big part of why it's hard to move away from voting republican, they are all afraid of being cut out of the in group for disagreeing. None of that shit exists on the left, which is why they always argue about the basics.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Are you actually this dumb? Or are you an LLM purposely trained to have a backwards training set?

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  • Democratic voters don't change their opinions based on who is doing the thing

    Oh, Democrats still do support hypocrisy. Just to a lesser extent.

    E.g. Democratic voters are against insider trading, except when Nancy Pelosi does it. (For balance, insider knowledge about tariffs was 10x more profitable)

    The current worshiped charismatic dictator is on the right, but there is absolutely no reason they couldn't also emerge from the left with similar support.

    E.g. Biden created the Patriot Act and it doesn't get more authoritarian than that.

    I'm not supporting "The Right" I'm saying what happened could equally happen on the left.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    At least the left’s brainless ship don’t worship politicians as the second coming of Jesus Christ son of god.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago* (1 child)

    Oh yes they do. Lenin, Mao Zedong and (to a much lesser extent) AOC and Bernie.

    Just because the right easily attracts brainless sheep, that doesn't mean the left can't.

    Some can, yes. Some subset of any large enough population can reasonably be assumed to behave irrationally. Similarly, some authoritarian might somehow start following a left winger.

    Worship and submission to authority is, however, inherent to the supporting belief structure of the right. It's how fascism works. The right, purely and simply, prefers to submit to authority. It's why the evangelical, Orthodox, and other strict religious sects are always right leaning. They revel in the simplicity of it. They crave it and fantasize about it. They cherish the pain of those who have been blamed for their problems (because a scapegoat is much easier than thinking about it). They will keep it up until (and sometimes even through) the moment it eats their face. They'll publicly deep throat that boot and beg daddy for the other one in gratitude for it also stomping on some scapegoat.

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