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[–] 13 points 1 month ago (97 children)

You and your flying monkeys don't even come close to representing "the entirety of leftist thought". Get the fuck over yourself.

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  • [–] 10 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (11 children)

    I'm a Marxist-Leninist, but I did used to be an anarchist, and from my time as an anarchist I cannot recall any anarchists opposed to revolution as a means to establish anarchism, which is something anarchists and Marxists share in common. Further, Marxists are not "pro-dictatorship," not in the sense of an individual with immense power, but in favor of the working class taking control, in favor of radical and genuine democracy.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago

    What happens to the working class after they take control? History says they don't stay the working class. They become the new rich or the new military leaders.

    First of all class in the Marxist sense refers to your relation to the means of production. Getting a higher paying jobs doesn't change your class.

    And sure some do become military leaders, because they literally lead a revolution. They proved they were capable military leaders, why wouldn't they stay a military leader?

    And no, they don't become the new rich. You can look up how much people in government positions in communist governments were paid. They didn't all become overnight billionaires. And working for the government is a job.

    Their revolutions mean nothing because they just use violence as a response to violence rather than taking a holistic proactive approach to the advancement of mankind.

    Communism has been successful everywhere they've been tried. They all improved the material conditions of their people, improved literacy, and health outcomes. There's a reason polls show most people who experienced communism preferred it to capitalism.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    What happens after the working class takes control, is that the working class begins to transform society into its own direction. Administration is a job, not a class, nor is class a level of wealth. Classes are relations to ownership of the means of production. Here's a snapshot from the early USSR, taken from This Soviet World:

    A leading Russian Communist said to me a year ago “The mind of our people is changing so fast under the conditions of socialism that it is becoming increasingly difficult for us to speak to the rest of the world. We find it harder to understand them, and they us.”

    We who go back and forth between the Soviet world and the world of capitalism—not only in space from New York to Moscow but also in spirit from intimate life with Soviet people to intimate life in America—feel keenly this difficulty. Important words like freedom, democracy, dictatorship have different meanings on different sides of the border. The Soviet world is sharply conscious of planning its future; the capitalist world is always arriving where it hadn’t intended. And Soviet officials are not always helpful in making their acts intelligible; they often assume that only deliberate malice can doubt them and that the only needed explanation is the appropriate citation from Marx.

    To explain the swiftly growing Soviet world to that other world out of which it was born is a task that becomes steadily more complex. For if its outer achievements are every year more able to speak for themselves, its inner life more and diverges from that of capitalism in a hundred subtle ways.

    In the Berlin station a giant sign greets me with three-foot letters: “Think of your hair!” My mind flashes back to the world I have left. What are Soviet people thinking of? The Stakhanov drive, the Moscow city plan, Marie and her sugar beets, the conquest of the north. And hair and perfume, O yes, of course. Everyone knows of the rising standard of living and firmly believes in a cultural life—more bath-tubs, radios, books and dramatic clubs and doubtless more hair. But their individuality is expressed not by possessions and polish but by the various ways in which men create. Dynamic is the word; their civilization is dynamic.

    The regimentation of life by property is my next shock in the capitalist world. The obscene phrases “damages for alienation of affections” or “a $50,000 man” or the remark: “I do it only for the money that is in it”—what degradation they imply of human life and work! I see able engineers spending creative power on little models in a government relief job just to keep alive. I see a journal of high standard, the life-work of an able editor submerged by a new owner’s wish for quick profit. Lives are conditioned in the Soviet world also, by trends and sages of organization, but not by the profits of a boss.

    The difference appears in the use of pronouns. People under capitalism are contrasting “I” and “they.” “Too bad it couldn’t have been on my land,” a man remarks of a California oil-strike. Soviet folk would be hailing “our new oil-wells”; to them the idea of a private oil-well is already as quaint as a private postal system. I note a remark about American unemployment: “If it gets any worse, they’ll have to do something.” Who is this ultimate, uncontrollable “they”? The term betrays the class society of which the speakers are unconscious; they are waiting for some boss to act. To hear a debate: “Is America going fascist?” and think how much less passively Soviet folk would word it. “Shall we go fascist? No. Then exactly how shall we prevent it?” Soviet folk say “we” of one-sixth of the earth’s surface. Uzbek cotton-pickers, toiling under the sun of Central Asia, say: “We are conquering the Arctic; we rescued the Chelyuskinites.” Ukrainian farmers who never went up in an airplane talk of “our stratosphere records” and “the loss of our Maxim Gorky airplane” as they take up collections to build ten new ones. But even Mrs. Roosevelt asks me: “Are Russian peasants getting more reconciled to accepting direction?” I feel the hopelessness of language as I answer: “No, they are learning better to organize and direct themselves.”

    Americans often ask me whether Russians are not naturally more altruistic than Americans, more fit for communism, they imply. No, it is something quite different. Russians at the time of Revolution were more medieval than Americans, which means “naturally” more petty, unreliable, inefficient, given to bargaining and cheating. Traits of the Asiatic market-place were widespread and occasionally still annoy the visitor. But these traits are disappearing under the fact of joint ownership, which brings identity of individual with community good.

    Joint possession of the country’s resources and productive mechanism is the economic reality which unifies Soviet life and makes it dynamic. It is this that washes out the antagonism between personal and public good, that makes men say “we.” It is this that makes men conscious planners of the future; for owners plan but non-owners can only fight or drift. The chief quality of Soviet civilization is the sense that the world is “ours,” to seize, understand and make over.

    This Soviet world is my theme; I give scant space to those fast disintegrating forces that fought it. I tell not the “whole truth,” for truth is never “whole”; there are always at least two truths in conflict: the truth that is dying and the truth that is coming into existence. American Tories who intrigued for King George had their truth also, but it remains only as piquant sauce to romance; the truth of the Continental armies remained to build the modern republic. They themselves recalled the frozen feet of Valley Forge less as suffering than as heroism; their raids on hungry farms passed into memory not as banditry but as necessity and daring. History’s greatest gift to victors is that not only they, but their truth survives.

    Yet I do no injustice to those many lives which in greater or less degree were wrenched or broken by the coming of the new Soviet order. Even for them the new years obliterate the past. They also change to seek their new future in the new system; Lives broken in terms of property are being remade in terms of work. Saboteurs reform and win posts of honor; kulaks come back from exile to factories and farms; children have an equal start now regardless of fathers. For this war differs from other battles in that all men, even the conquered foes, are absorbed into the ranks of the conquerors—joint heirs to all the fruits of victory.

    Anna Louise Strong was a Statesian radical and journalist that traveled back and forth between the USSR and the US, and later the PRC as well.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

    I already explained using my own words, when the working class takes power we can use it to reshape the world. Socialist countries have already done so throughout the world. Linking Anna Louise Strong's work was just to show historical evidence. I don't think it's a secret that I'm a Marxist-Leninist, I made that abundantly clear already.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 month ago (4 children)

    Marxism-Leninism was synthesized by Stalin, but Stalin himself did not add much of anything to Marx, Engels, or Lenin, aside form sharpening Lenin's analysis of the national question, which is particularly important for indigenous struggles (and also partially why a group of indigenous American tribes named Stalin an honorary chief in 1942, presenting him with a headdress).

    Marxism-Leninism is not "pro-dictatorship." This is a simplistic framing of unitary forms of democracy that focus on policy changes as the primary issue of political engagement, rather than party changes. States like Cuba, that are guided by Marxism-Leninism, have complex systems of delegate-based democracy.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (3 children)

    Nations are just arbitrarily formed social groups in the meta sense, and concerning yourself with the well being of a 'nation' rather than individuals or simply the maximum number of people (globally or by citizenship) is a reactionary waste of time.

    I grew up in an American irish & german catholic family. If I could obliterate my own families "national", cultural, and religious identity to replace it with one of overall human solidarity and rational sciences I would without hesitation. And I don't entirely trust anyone who wouldn't do the same for their own culture, no matter the sort.

    Just because people within a nation are historically oppressed doesn't mean the nation itself is worth saving: the people within it need rights. They need material well being. They need education.

    As a tool, using nationalism can have short term gains for leftwing movements, but often benefits nationalism more strongly in the long term, a rightwing ideology.

    So why embrace such a short sighted and irrational thing bolted onto Marxism and Leninism? Why not just call yourself a Leninist?

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  • [–] 5 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    Genuine internationalism stems from equal footing and the right to self-determination of all communities of people, or all "nations." To quote the relevant bit from Stalin, "a nation is a historically constituted, stable community of people, formed on the basis of a common language, territory, economic life and culture." When I say that the self-determination of all nations is critical for internationalism, I mean this in a similar reason for why I support the working class. I am not opposed to the individuals within them, it's a recognition of the struggle for national liberation, such as the ongoing struggle for self-determination in Palestine.

    In Marxist philosophy, there are primary and secondary contradictions. Combatting secondary contradictions that rest on the primary contradiction also combats the primary contradiction. The struggle for national liberation is like the struggle for women's liberation, for queer liberation: secondary contradictions that rest upon the primary contradiction of class struggle. They are all inter-linked, and as such when we fight for self-determination against colonialism, we also fight capitalism at the same time. Nationalism switches from being progressive to being reactionary when it is used to justify support for colonizers and imperialists.

    I call myself a Marxist-Leninist because I am an internationalist, a follower of Marx, Engels, and Lenin. Stalin did not invent the national question, he did work on it that Lenin acknowledged as correct, and whose views they sharpened against each other. The nation was not invented by Stalin, it was understood by Marx in his support of Ireland and Poland against colonialism, refined by Lenin in his support for self-determination of all peoples, and further codified and studied by Stalin, who was a national minority within the Russian Empire himself as a Georgian.

    So, in essense, Stalin did not invent anything new, he merely extended and theorized upon Lenin's advancements. It is for the same reason that we do not always tack on any individual theorist as an "-ism," for example Marxist-Leninists appreciate Mao's contributions, but do not believe them to represent a universal or new advancement upon Marxism-Leninism.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago

    It's quite possible for formerly oppressed people to become oppressors along the lines of queer supremacy, matriarchy, etc. These ideas are only ridiculous in the context of the present state of things, class society set up to where queer folk and women are oppressed. The working class will become the new oppressor class over the capitalist class, and this will be a good thing.

    Understanding the right of nations to self-determination does not mean blind acceptance of any nationalism. This is a reductive take. Nationalism is not simply "my people are superior," it's the struggle for self-determination, for sovereignty from colonialism and imperialism. This, again, finds its basis in Marx, advanced by Lenin and Stalin but at heart Marx.

    For genuine internationalism, there must be no colonialism. We must fight colonialism, neocolonialism, and imperialism so that all nations may be free of oppression by other nations, as a necessary step towards eradicating capitalism and establishing socialism.

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  • [–] 10 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (28 children)

    Why are you lying about what the upstream commenter was doing?

    Also, fuck all the way off with the fallacious bullshit notion that you can't organize outside the system and also still vote anyway!

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  • [–] 12 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (26 children)

    I'm not, I'm responding to the comment directly. I suppose you could argue that their comment was vague enough that they could claim to be talking about a specific group in a clarification, but as it stands they seem to be lashing out against the left in general. Further, when people treat voting as their primary means of political engagement, they do check out! I'm not denying that people can organize while voting for the DNC, many people do, but the problem is that most see voting for the DNC as their primary political agency, and not a pressure valve designed to siphon away agitation against the system itself.

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  • [–] 12 points 1 month ago (4 children)

    They are targeting a vague group that they claim has these traits. There's no direct attack on any ideology specifically, nor any instance specifically, so we have to fill in the gaps and see it for what it is: an attack on instances like dbzer0, Lemmy.ml, Lemmygrad.ml, and Hexbear.net, as well as the ideologies of those instances, those generally being anarchism and Marxism-Leninism. Their position is that these are dominating flaws of specific instances, not merely a random type of person with an unspecified level of influence.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 month ago

    They are complaining about dbzer0, as anarchist instances also advocate for revolution rather than electoralism. That's the focus of this meme, after all. I also don't think I'm that well-known, certainly a few people seem to obsess over me but if you asked random users they would likely have no idea who I am. I also disagree that I exemplify the traits described, people tend to attack my character over what I actually say.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago

    The central theme among those 4 is an opposition to electoralism as a strategy, and a focus on revolutionary practice. They form the broader "left," including other instances like Anarchist.Nexus, etc. I am aware that Marxism and anarchism are fundamentally opposed when it comes to the question of communalization vs. collectivization, but Marxists and anarchists do share the central opposition to capitalism and reformism.

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  • [–] 11 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    The point of trying to bring theory to people isn't to get a cheap gotcha, it's to try to bring the general level of political education of people up, from the base level of general instinct to an informed and scientific approach to social change. If someone is being condescending in their approach, then they are doing it wrong.

    I'm not sure why you're lying about me claiming to speak for the entire left, I claimed the opposite. I speak for myself, and can at minimum self-identify as a Marxist-Leninist.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 month ago (12 children)

    Since when did I say "voting bad?" I said that electoralism cannot bring about the change that is necessary. Regardless, the issue is that focusing political engagement on voting over organizing is what deflates organizational pressures, not the act of voting itself. Are you actually reading my arguments?

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    I'm also curious about evidence for this, if you have it. It seems self-evident to me (and also irrelevant tbh), but it'd be nice to know/have anyway

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  • [–] 6 points 1 month ago

    The closest direct source I found suggests that there is a negative correlation between system-justifying beliefs and collective anti-system action. If people believe voting legitimately is a means by which they can enact social change, they are less likely to organize against the system itself. This does not mean voting itself is against organizing, in fact organizers vote at higher rates than non-organizers. The importance here is that collective action is diminished when that is directed towards engaging with the system itself.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago (8 children)

    I never said that, though. Try directly responding to what I directly said. The problem isn't the act of voting, it's the treating of voting like it's in fact the end-all be-all, like the DNC is the primary means by which any progress can be won, rather than an obstacle to progress.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago (6 children)

    The closest direct source I found suggests that there is a negative correlation between system-justifying beliefs and collective anti-system action. If people believe voting legitimately is a means by which they can enact social change, they are less likely to organize against the system itself. This does not mean voting itself is against organizing, in fact organizers vote at higher rates than non-organizers. The importance here is that collective action is diminished when that is directed towards engaging with the system itself.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 month ago (4 children)

    The study directly shows a negative correlation between those who believe the system represents a valid path to change, and those who organize against the system. This is my point. I did not say "people who vote will organize less," I said funelling people into electoralism and treating it as the primary means of change deflates revolutionary organizing. These are distinct and separate points, and since you cannot argue against my actual point, you make up strawmen.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    Yep! I never said voting causes apathy, I pointed to the way people treat voting as a cause of apathy towards organizing. Critical distinction!

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  • [–] 7 points 1 month ago (18 children)

    Cowbee is incredibly patient and doing marvelous educational work in threads like this. You confuse it for a debate, but you'd need to be on even footing for that. It's more like they are a teacher who calmly tries to make some common sense stick with western people who behave like spoiled children and are to privileged and racist to see the simple and plain truths that literally most people in the (non-western) world see clearly.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 month ago (12 children)

    Nah, I directly state that organizing is more important than voting, and treating them like it's the opposite is dangerous. I don't argue against voting, I argue for organizing, and stress it as more important than voting.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 month ago (10 children)

    Even when you do quote me, you seem to have a habit of arguing against an entirely different point than the one you quoted.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 month ago (8 children)

    I'm not arguing like a weasel, I have a very specific point and you seem to despise that I have that point and not the strawman point you want me to have. The evidence I found supports my actual point, that those who believe in the legitimacy of change via a system do not feel pressured to organize against it. You keep trying to invent a point for me, and I have to bring you back to reality each time you do.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (6 children)

    You're still lying about my point. I did not say voting hurts organizing. I said funneling people into voting as their primary mechanism for change hurts organizing. The act of voting does not harm, the funneling people into that as a primary means of engaging pollitically does. The study affirms this, by stating that legitimizing the system has a negative correlation with organizing against it.

    my actual point, that those who believe in the legitimacy of change via a system do not feel pressured to organize against it.

    Not one bit did I say "voting hurts organizing." This is a lie.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (4 children)

    Yes, when people treat voting as their primary means of political engagement, they check out. This does not mean "voting makes people check out." It is not the act of voting, it's the way voting is portrayed and treated. I have receipts too, they affirm what I have been stating this entire time. Engage with my actual point, rather than a strawman you concocted.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    Here's the abstract:

    Social identity, shared grievances, and group efficacy beliefs are well-known antecedents to collective action, but existing research overlooks the fact that collective action often involves a confrontation between those who are motivated to defend the status quo and those who seek to challenge it. Using nationally representative data from New Zealand (Study 1; N = 16,147) and a large online sample from the United States (Study 2; N = 1,513), we address this oversight and demonstrate that system justification is negatively associated with system-challenging collective action, but positively associated with system-supporting collective action, for members of both low-status and high-status groups. Group identification, group-based injustice, group-based anger, and system-based dissatisfaction/anger mediated these relationships. These findings constitute the first empirical integration of system justification theory into a model of collective action that explains when people will act collectively to challenge—and, just as importantly, defend—the status quo.

    If someone believes elections are the primary mechanism of change, ie what makes the biggest impact on the direction a country goes in, then they are negatively correlated with organizing against the system. Why, after all, would someone organize to overthrow a system they believed can be reformed into a just system? Calling representatives and asking them nicely to stop bombing children overseas is still believing that change is something asked for from within the system, rather than demanded from outside in the form of general strikes, boycotts, up to and including revolution.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago

    I'm just going to copy and paste where I already directly addressed your points at the bottom and related the study to my central point:

    If someone believes elections are the primary mechanism of change, ie what makes the biggest impact on the direction a country goes in, then they are negatively correlated with organizing against the system. Why, after all, would someone organize to overthrow a system they believed can be reformed into a just system? Calling representatives and asking them nicely to stop bombing children overseas is still believing that change is something asked for from within the system, rather than demanded from outside in the form of general strikes, boycotts, up to and including revolution.

    Feel free to actually respond to my point this time.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 month ago

    No? I study theory and history, it's pointless to only study one aspect. I'm 100% genuine, and making a dozen comments complaining about me in a row without actually adding anything is a bit ridiculous.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago (7 children)

    "Not a debate" is 100% accurate. They just copy paste some tangential and paper thin propaganda and tweak the verbiage. Basically LLM slop with some extra steps. If you punch a hole in that topic (after a bunch of equivocation and nit picking) they retreat to some other copy-paste talking point.

    It's easy to look "smart" at a glance when your conversation technique is the exact same playbook as Charlie Kirk:

    • Pick someone random with minimal preparation (college student :: commenter)
    • in a poor environment for a debate (a desk under a tent :: deep thread in a random comment section)
    • and throw a nonstop stream of garbage at them (unexamined statistics on black crime :: unexamined stats on USSR beef production)
    • when cornered, appeal to a genetic fallacy and change the topic ("that's a fake woke study" :: "that's CIA propaganda")

    There's no way to have a conversation unless you already start in agreement with their priors. I've watched them get backed into a corner on basic stuff that contradicts their own talking points in the same thread. Paraphrasing it went something like "Communism is a perfect rational science" => Why don't we discard the pseudo-religious trappings and make decisions that optimize for quantifiable quality of life indicators à la the HDi? => "Well actually communism is required for the vibes"

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (18 children)

    That's odd, you kept making a strawman of my argument and kept berating me for not sourcing the strawman. After I sourced the actual point I made, I only got crickets.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 month ago (16 children)

    Maybe don't spend time implying I should be assassinated then?

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  • [–] 6 points 1 month ago (7 children)

    What a pain in the neck

    Oh gee, why would I take you joking about me being like Charlie Kirk and being a "pain in the neck" any other way?

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  • [–] 5 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    Pretty simple to see how drawing a comparison between Kirk and myself, and then directly referencing myself in a manner that references how Kirk died, would be taken as an implication that I should be shot to death publicly. It's a dogwhistle, vague enough to deny but clear enough that those who want to see it that way will.

    Maybe you didn't mean to do it, but I am certain others do want me killed. Communists being killed isn't exactly anything new, if I told the wrong person that I'm a communist and I was alone, I could be dead today.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago (4 children)
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