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[–] 0 points 1 month ago (53 children)

Cowbee never shuts up and doesn't actually debate, just keeps repeating the same talking points and puts words into your mouth.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 month ago (18 children)

    Cowbee is incredibly patient and doing marvelous educational work in threads like this. You confuse it for a debate, but you'd need to be on even footing for that. It's more like they are a teacher who calmly tries to make some common sense stick with western people who behave like spoiled children and are to privileged and racist to see the simple and plain truths that literally most people in the (non-western) world see clearly.

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  • [–] -2 points 1 month ago (13 children)

    Cowbee has some good points and his heart is in the right place, but always seems to show up to imply people shouldn't vote, which I think is foolish and dangerous.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 month ago (12 children)

    Nah, I directly state that organizing is more important than voting, and treating them like it's the opposite is dangerous. I don't argue against voting, I argue for organizing, and stress it as more important than voting.

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  • [–] -2 points 1 month ago (11 children)

    I've quoted you enough where you've implied otherwise I'm not going to do another thread where we day the same thing.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 month ago (10 children)

    Even when you do quote me, you seem to have a habit of arguing against an entirely different point than the one you quoted.

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  • [–] -4 points 1 month ago (9 children)

    Yeah, when you argue like a weasel it's easy to say your stance is different. If that wasn't your stance, you wouldn't have looked for evidence. You would've said right then it wasn't your stance. Now that you don't have evidence you're trying to say your point was different.

    Weird how your goalposts always seem to grow legs under scrutiny.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 month ago (8 children)

    I'm not arguing like a weasel, I have a very specific point and you seem to despise that I have that point and not the strawman point you want me to have. The evidence I found supports my actual point, that those who believe in the legitimacy of change via a system do not feel pressured to organize against it. You keep trying to invent a point for me, and I have to bring you back to reality each time you do.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (6 children)

    You're still lying about my point. I did not say voting hurts organizing. I said funneling people into voting as their primary mechanism for change hurts organizing. The act of voting does not harm, the funneling people into that as a primary means of engaging pollitically does. The study affirms this, by stating that legitimizing the system has a negative correlation with organizing against it.

    my actual point, that those who believe in the legitimacy of change via a system do not feel pressured to organize against it.

    Not one bit did I say "voting hurts organizing." This is a lie.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (4 children)

    Yes, when people treat voting as their primary means of political engagement, they check out. This does not mean "voting makes people check out." It is not the act of voting, it's the way voting is portrayed and treated. I have receipts too, they affirm what I have been stating this entire time. Engage with my actual point, rather than a strawman you concocted.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    Here's the abstract:

    Social identity, shared grievances, and group efficacy beliefs are well-known antecedents to collective action, but existing research overlooks the fact that collective action often involves a confrontation between those who are motivated to defend the status quo and those who seek to challenge it. Using nationally representative data from New Zealand (Study 1; N = 16,147) and a large online sample from the United States (Study 2; N = 1,513), we address this oversight and demonstrate that system justification is negatively associated with system-challenging collective action, but positively associated with system-supporting collective action, for members of both low-status and high-status groups. Group identification, group-based injustice, group-based anger, and system-based dissatisfaction/anger mediated these relationships. These findings constitute the first empirical integration of system justification theory into a model of collective action that explains when people will act collectively to challenge—and, just as importantly, defend—the status quo.

    If someone believes elections are the primary mechanism of change, ie what makes the biggest impact on the direction a country goes in, then they are negatively correlated with organizing against the system. Why, after all, would someone organize to overthrow a system they believed can be reformed into a just system? Calling representatives and asking them nicely to stop bombing children overseas is still believing that change is something asked for from within the system, rather than demanded from outside in the form of general strikes, boycotts, up to and including revolution.

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  • [–] -4 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    So you're going to cherry pick what you argue against and the study? Ok let's go.

    existing research overlooks the fact that collective action often involves a confrontation between those who are motivated to defend the status quo and those who seek to challenge it.

    So this is talking about two groups of people. It's saying research has overlooked that people who do collective action inevitably have to confront people who want to keep the status quo.

    To keep it simple, I'll call the people who want collective action Changers and the people who want the status quo Keepers.

    When Changers want change they have to, inevitably deal with Keepers. And people haven't studied that.

    This is important because it provides CONTEXT!

    So let's look what's next.

    Using nationally representative data [...], we address this oversight and demonstrate that system justification is negatively associated with system-challenging collective action, but positively associated with system-supporting collective action, for members of both low-status and high-status groups.

    So to break it down, they are saying they are gonna study how the Keepers and Changers interact. They found that Keepers don't like collective action that challenges the system, BUT are ok with collective action that supports the system. This is for people who are poor and not poor.

    So, Keepers wanna keep. They might be fine with collective action as long as it doesn't mess with the system as is.

    Group identification, group-based injustice, group-based anger, and system-based dissatisfaction/anger mediated these relationships.

    So there's ways these two GROUPS OF PEOPLE can get together! From these things!

    These findings [...] explain[...] when people will act collectively to challenge—and, just as importantly, defend—the status quo.

    So this study shows why people will band together as Changers and Keepers.

    Neat!

    Oh wait. There's a problem.

    NOTHING in this is about voting, nor is it about how we treat voting. It has NOTHING to do with people being compliant because they can vote. It's a study of why people who want to change a system have to butt heads with people who want to keep a system. It does not have anything to do with turning Changers into Keepers, and you are, again, making an assumption that your theory is right and working backwards from there. You assume how we treat voting makes people comply, but this study doesn't talk about that. It doesn't talk about how system participation erodes desire to change it at all, just how Keepers and Changers butt heads and why.

    So what I just said still stands.

    You have no proof of that.

    That study clearly didn't state the same thing you did.

    Voting can actually get people more engaged with organizing than less.

    Oh wait here's a bonus, no one treats voting as the only means of engagement, much less the primary one. People talk about calling and writing to their reps, running for office, filing out positions, etc.

    Are you going to ignore those points and hope I forget about them?

    Face it cowbee you don't have a leg to stand on here with your theory.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago

    I'm just going to copy and paste where I already directly addressed your points at the bottom and related the study to my central point:

    If someone believes elections are the primary mechanism of change, ie what makes the biggest impact on the direction a country goes in, then they are negatively correlated with organizing against the system. Why, after all, would someone organize to overthrow a system they believed can be reformed into a just system? Calling representatives and asking them nicely to stop bombing children overseas is still believing that change is something asked for from within the system, rather than demanded from outside in the form of general strikes, boycotts, up to and including revolution.

    Feel free to actually respond to my point this time.

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  • [+] -6 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    Cowbee is a bad faith propagandist that can't reconcile their understanding of theory with literally all of recorded history. Cowbee is full of shit and as bad faith as it comes here on Lemmy.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 month ago

    No? I study theory and history, it's pointless to only study one aspect. I'm 100% genuine, and making a dozen comments complaining about me in a row without actually adding anything is a bit ridiculous.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago (7 children)

    "Not a debate" is 100% accurate. They just copy paste some tangential and paper thin propaganda and tweak the verbiage. Basically LLM slop with some extra steps. If you punch a hole in that topic (after a bunch of equivocation and nit picking) they retreat to some other copy-paste talking point.

    It's easy to look "smart" at a glance when your conversation technique is the exact same playbook as Charlie Kirk:

    • Pick someone random with minimal preparation (college student :: commenter)
    • in a poor environment for a debate (a desk under a tent :: deep thread in a random comment section)
    • and throw a nonstop stream of garbage at them (unexamined statistics on black crime :: unexamined stats on USSR beef production)
    • when cornered, appeal to a genetic fallacy and change the topic ("that's a fake woke study" :: "that's CIA propaganda")

    There's no way to have a conversation unless you already start in agreement with their priors. I've watched them get backed into a corner on basic stuff that contradicts their own talking points in the same thread. Paraphrasing it went something like "Communism is a perfect rational science" => Why don't we discard the pseudo-religious trappings and make decisions that optimize for quantifiable quality of life indicators à la the HDi? => "Well actually communism is required for the vibes"

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  • [–] -1 points 1 month ago (4 children)

    It certainly is very easy to make shit up about people! No examples provided, no links, just pure unfiltered strawman.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    Look ladies and gentlemen, no straw man needed! Already here in the flesh! Like a terminally online Candyman, say the name you'll summon the keyboard praxis warrior.

    Too hard to search your own comment history? I don't blame you, 21.4k comments at an average of 668 per month is too much for me too. And of course that's just your .ml account, lord knows what you'd have to sift through on your alts.

    Having actual real life responsibilities prevents me from keeping up with your Kirk-esque pace of a reply every 43 waking minutes, so how about we compromise. You can just copy-paste the existing comments calling out your bullshit right underneath the drivel you regurgitate. It's all the same conversation anyway, it will save us both time.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (18 children)

    That's odd, you kept making a strawman of my argument and kept berating me for not sourcing the strawman. After I sourced the actual point I made, I only got crickets.

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  • [–] -5 points 1 month ago (17 children)

    Bruv I've been doing stuff throughout my day other than telling at people online, give me a minute

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  • [–] 5 points 1 month ago (16 children)

    Maybe don't spend time implying I should be assassinated then?

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  • [–] -3 points 1 month ago (13 children)

    When did I say that? Way to put words in my mouth, again.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 month ago (7 children)

    What a pain in the neck

    Oh gee, why would I take you joking about me being like Charlie Kirk and being a "pain in the neck" any other way?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (3 children)

    Yeah, I was joking about how Charlie died.

    I didn't get it, why would you think that means I think you should be shot?

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  • [–] 5 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    Pretty simple to see how drawing a comparison between Kirk and myself, and then directly referencing myself in a manner that references how Kirk died, would be taken as an implication that I should be shot to death publicly. It's a dogwhistle, vague enough to deny but clear enough that those who want to see it that way will.

    Maybe you didn't mean to do it, but I am certain others do want me killed. Communists being killed isn't exactly anything new, if I told the wrong person that I'm a communist and I was alone, I could be dead today.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (4 children)

    What a pain in the neck

    you really weren't subtle, nycto

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  • [–] 0 points 1 month ago (6 children)

    Cowbee uses the same 'debate' style as Charlie Kirk.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago (4 children)
  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (3 children)

    Cowbee never shuts up and doesn't actually debate, just keeps repeating the same talking points and puts words into your mouth.

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