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Tis the season (lemmy.world)
submitted 1 month ago by to c/politicalmemes@lemmy.world
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Can I get a smug lecture on how you're choosing the third, disconnected track?

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[–] 5 points 1 month ago (18 children)

Truly the fashos are the same as the entire establishment. Feel free to keep enabling the nazis while patting yourself on the back. The political system in the US practically does not allow for third parties, and even if you manage to replace one party with something better that doesn't solve the fundamental long term issue. Pushing for electoral reform one way or another does not mean you can't at least put in a meaningful vote against the fashos.

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  • [–] -3 points 1 month ago (17 children)

    Feel free to keep enabling the nazis while patting yourself on the back.

    Sorry, I just said I won't vote for democrats

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago (16 children)

    So you'll get either your 3rd party candidate (you won't), or Trump's third. Hard to see why you'd want that, but I guess we all have our reasons.

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  • [–] -1 points 1 month ago (15 children)

    or Trump’s third

    Or a democrat, which is functionally similar to Trump.

    even if you manage to replace one party with something better that doesn’t solve the fundamental long term issue.

    Wow, it's almost like the USA isn't a democracy and you're given a false choice between two identical political parties in order to keep you from actually doing anything of substance. It's almost like your argument about voting mattering is flawed. Weird how noone pointed that out.

    Pushing for electoral reform one way or another does not mean you can’t at least put in a meaningful vote against the fashos.

    Right, which is why I'm not voting for democrats or republicans.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago (14 children)

    Or a democrat, which is functionally similar to Trump.

    Laughably naive. Please refrain from any political commentary from now on.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago* (13 children)

    Oh sorry, I just consider palestinians people. And immigrants peopl. And queer people people. And women people. And I care about the climate. And the ever-growing police state. And the constantly expanding military. And the wars. And the foreign intervention. And the brinksmanship. And the assaults on peaceful protesters. And the bypassing of primaries.
    But you know, other than that, yeah, super naive I guess.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (12 children)

    It is extremely naive if you can't tell the difference between the D and R policies on those issues. Just make a comparison of each of those between Biden and Trump. Just do it. Take a spreadsheet and compare. Do it. A column for each president, a row for each issue. In the corresponding field write what they did to each group. Go ahead. Do it. Stop bitching and look at the facts. Do it now.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago (11 children)

    if you can’t tell the difference between the D and R policies on those issues

    Hey real quick, what does the word "functionally" mean? You people keep doing this thing where you construct a straw man for you to argue against, instead of relating to the actual argument at hand. OP did it, you do it. Why? You seem to feel so strongly you are correct, yet you can't even argue properly.

    Just make a comparison of each of those between Biden and Trump. Just do it. Take a spreadsheet and compare. Do it. A column for each president, a row for each issue.

    Nah, I'm not going to format something up for you, sorry. Facts of the matter are pretty clear too, though you can always fuck commas on a specific policy phrasing:
    Here's a quick lazy one. There's plenty more with sources and more extensive variations, this was just the first I found of my own. I would put in more effort if it weren't for the fact that every time I do it gets ignored, so why bother? You people always just end up following the same playbook of ignoring the actual arguments presented; or you play obtuse and pretend you don't understand; or you go for some wack racist conspiracy-psychosis ad hominem about "russian bots"; or you construct some strawman position of the argument (like you're doing now).
    You can go hunting for a bunch more comparisons of the democrats and republicans, done by leftists. You should do it. Actually do it, now. Instead of, you know, ordering up some spreadsheet, you could just go look for it. You won't though, because this thing you're doing now is easier, and it's more comfortable to stick your head in the ground and cover your ears (like the DNC did when they passed by protesters against palestinian genocide.)

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (10 children)

    Facts of the matter are pretty clear too

    A couple of quick facts for you.

    • Trump started a war against Iran. A new war. This is huge. This is major. This affects the whole globe. Don't forget the Iranian people, the school girls who were brutally murdered.
    • Biden had a green new deal. Billions poured into green technology.
    • Trump brought ICE on the streets.
    • Gaza is being razed under Trump's watch. Was never perfect under democrats, but also never this bad by a really long shot.

    I mean sure, Biden is not perfect, and you can point out to many bad things done during his administration. But these are objective, major issues that you will not be able to debunk.

    In the US system you have a choice between kind of bad and really terrible. Don't fool yourself you can elect someone actually good (unless you can push someone like Bernie through the democrats).

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  • [–] 4 points 1 month ago* (9 children)

    See, this is why I said I didn't want to put in any more than the bare minimum of effort. You ignore what you get. You also fail to answer any questions yourself.

    Trump started a war against Iran. A new war. This is huge. This is major. This affects the whole globe. Don’t forget the Iranian people, the school girls who were brutally murdered

    A war the democrats had likewise been pursuing.

    Biden had a green new deal. Billions poured into green technology.

    Right, which is why I said functionally, because what Biden functionally did was pass a deal that gave a pittance to "renewable" energy, while mainly handing money over to cronies to be used as they liked, while he also handed out a bunch of new fracking contracts, the accumulated emissions from which are estimated to push us much further than the 1.5C hellscape we already live in. So while you get a cute little gesture towards something nice so you don't notice you're getting fucked, you're still getting fucked.

    Trump brought ICE on the streets

    And Obama was the one to expand ICEs budgets and purview. And Biden was the one to deport more people than Trump 1. And Harris ran on being harsher on immigration than Trump. But that's not as flashy, so you don't care.

    Gaza is being razed under Trump’s watch. Was never perfect under democrats, but also never this bad by a really long shot.

    Just actual straight up genocide denial. Are you delusional or a zionist? Schools, hospitals, residential buildings, everything was flattened under Biden. Gaza was also being raided under Biden.

    Biden is not perfect

    Yeah, he's functionally equivalent to Trump. A senile rapist geriatric who fucks the climate, kicks out immigrants, throws women and queer people under the bus, and salivates at the thought of giving Israel more weapons.

    In the US system you have a choice between kind of bad and really terrible.

    You do not have a choice in the US and the longer you remain within the confines of the blue/red dichotomy, the worse it gets.

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  • [–] -1 points 1 month ago (8 children)

    You do not have a choice in the US and the longer you remain within the confines of the blue/red dichotomy, the worse it gets.

    My point this whole time has been this, let me be clear one more time: You will not get out of this dichotomy. You can only choose a kind of bad and terrible. Perhaps you're too young and haven't seen enough R's, but time will teach you. This is also the reason I don't feel like talking about how bad the dems are (when R's are objectively much much worse). The only way "out" is through someone like Bernie who captures the D-establishment, and even then he'd need a supermarjority everywhere to change the system. It's not happening.

    But humor me, tell me who's your alternative now, and what chances to they have?

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago (7 children)

    My point this whole time has been this, let me be clear one more time: You will not get out of this dichotomy.

    Defeatism, neat. Anyways, yes you can. Not by keeping the thing going though. Which is why I pointed out that, by your logic, one should vote third party. You're the one arguing for this. Personally, I realise the electoral system is completely fucked and the only thing you gain by voting democrat is normalising them and legitimising the system. But you don't. And, again, by your logic, one ought to vote third party.

    Perhaps you’re too young and haven’t seen enough R’s, but time will teach you.

    Lmao, alright. I've been around long enough to know there's no difference, and seemingly longer than you, since you can't seem to remember what Obama did.

    when R’s are objectively much much worse

    They objectively aren't.

    The only way “out” is through someone like Bernie who captures the D-establishment,

    Right... The only way out is through a party stooge who let himself get ratfucked twice, is a supporter of Israel and does whatever the dems need him to do. Buddy, you've been sheepdogged to hell.
    Not to mention that it's not the only way out. You people keep acting as if voting (and specifically voting for democrats) is the only thing to do. You then also, once you've talked enough, come to admit that they suck just as much ass and are part of the same system republicans are part of, and by voting for them you only perpetuate the system. Yet, if someone points this out, you start screeching like you're an inquisitioner seeing a heretic.

    But humor me, tell me who’s your alternative now, and what chances to they have?

    To win this specific election right now? No one. But I'm capable of thinking longer term than that. You claim to, since you keep arguing about prolonging things and kicking the can down the road and so on, yet somehow any actual long-term plan makes you screech "THEY CANT DO EVERYTHING RIGHT THIS INSTANT!!!!" Yeah alright, let's vote for genociders, then.
    Personally I am convinced the electoral system is so completely captured that if a viable third party would ever arise, then it would immediately be captured or crushed. Which would probably help make people realise they don't live in a democracy and need to organise outside the electoral system.
    And yeah, that is the alternative - Organising outside the electoral system. Creating structures of power outside it, from which political resistance can grow.

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  • [–] -2 points 1 month ago (6 children)

    Ah, a vague revolution that will one day solve everything. Fantastic.

    In the mean time, please just vote a D. Any D. For the Iranian schoolgirl's sake. I've already laid out what Trump has done, and even before him the last R gave us a massive refugee crisis in Europe. So just vote against that while organizing your resistance, please.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 month ago* (5 children)

    Ah, a vague revolution that will one day solve everything. Fantastic.

    Not at all what I was saying. You still haven't answered why you do this. You get answers to your questions and then instead of relating to the answers you make up something I (and others) haven't said, nor which can be concluded from what has been said. At this point I must conclude youre doing it on purpose and you're just a troll. This will therefore be my last response to you, unless you manage to act in good faith & answer my questions.

    In the mean time, please just vote a D.

    Ive already told you I won't vote for fascist genociders.

    For the Iranian schoolgirl’s sake.

    Absolute ghoul. You have absolutely no shame, do you?

    Trump.

    Right, and I laid out why hes functionally the same as a dem. You decided to move right past it, and move right past me asking you why you do so.

    even before him the last R gave us a massive refugee crisis in Europe.

    You mean the one that came as a result from the colour revolutions and indescriminate drone bombings enacted under Obama? And the "crisis" youre talking about was more or less a manufactured media stunt. The actual numbers from that year show no dramatic increase in refugees. You probably know this, you are supporting fascists after all.

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  • [–] -1 points 1 month ago (4 children)

    The reason I talk past you is because you consistently get your facts completely wrong. They're not even wrong, just plain terrible. Here's an easy example:

    indescriminate drone bombings enacted under Obama

    No! The refugee crisis has roots in the Iraq war that killed a million Iraqis and was started by ... You know who, but somehow keep ignoring the most obvious simple glaring facts, because you need to distort everything as democrat's fault.

    Absolute ghoul. You have absolutely no shame, do you?

    Again. No. Those girls would be alive today if it wasn't for the R president currently in charge. This is a fact, you cannot in any way distort it and point out how a democrat would have done the same. They absolutely, undeniably would be alive still today.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (3 children)

    The reason I talk past you is because you consistently get your facts completely wrong.

    Congratulations! You managed to answer a question! Your logic is incredible questionable though, since what one does when they encounter misinformation is to address it, as I've been doing with yours. It also makes your position appear incredibly weak, since you dont dare actually address the person disagreeing with you or their points. I gotta say, your reasoning is so shitty it sounds like a lie. Seems like a more probable explanation would be something like: You can't actually argue against the actual position, and you dont feel comfortable investigating your own beliefs so as to understand why that might be, so instead you construct a crude strawman, which lets you rest comfortably.

    No! The refugee crisis has roots in the Iraq war that killed a million Iraqis and was started by … You know who,

    And hey, who kept it going??? Hmmm???? Weird how you absolve that person. Weird how you absolve that person from INCREASING THE TROOPS COUNT and THE SURGE. Weird how you blame republicans for something that happened SEVERAL YEARS into a democratic presidency. Speaking of: The majority of refugees did not come from Iraq, they came from Syria, which was a result of a regime-change operation put into effect by Obama.

    but somehow keep ignoring the most obvious simple glaring facts, because you need to distort everything as democrat’s fault.

    No? I correctly describe the democrats as also being at fault something you try to absolve them of.

    Those girls would be alive today if it wasn’t for the R president currently in charge.

    Oh so we are using dead victims of fascist mass murder in order to write AU-fiction? Fucked up.
    In actuality there is no way to know what would have happened if Trump werent the one currently in charge. All we can do is look at past actions and stated intentions. Past actions of Kamala? Enacting a genocide while lying about trying to stop it. Stated intentions? https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/10/8/kamala-harris-says-iran-is-greatest-adversary-of-us
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpZ2XYEVmZU
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOqTAWml658

    Yeah really seems like the type to give a fuck about civilian casualties. Actually does seem like the type to pursue war with Iran so... Neat.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    The majority of refugees did not come from Iraq, they came from Syria, which was a result of a regime-change operation put into effect by Obama.

    You're actually right about this, apologies. It appears to be less driven by the Iraq disaster than the Syrian civil war. However, 1 million Iraqis died because of an R president and his cronies, that point still stands, feel free to ignore it from now on.

    No? I correctly describe the democrats as also being at fault something you try to absolve them of.

    I am fully happy to admit Ds also do bad things. Just not outright terrible like the Rs. You seem unable to admit this, to the point you almost come off as a Trump apologist.

    Oh so we are using dead victims of fascist mass murder in order to write AU-fiction? Fucked up.

    No, an objective measure for how bad Trump has been. Feel free to ignore from now on as well.

    Regarding Kamala, your points are shallow. Of course Kamala will agree that Iran is the greatest adversary to the US. It's been a pillar of US foreign policy since the 1979 revolution. Would she have started a war because she screamed at a protestor? Absolutely not, the US military has known since the early 2000s that starting a war against Iran would lead to the closure of the strait, which in turn would have catastrophic economic consequences. Unlike Trump, Kamala would very likely have listened to her advisors (as she did not have Epstein files to cover up with a war).

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  • [–] 3 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    You’re actually right about this, apologies.

    So you do just talk about shit you dont know about. You should probably stop doing that.

    However, 1 million Iraqis died because of an R president and his cronies, that point still stands,

    And the point that Obama is likewise responsible for millions of dead iraqis likewise stands, which is a point you should not ignore, dont feel free to move on. Likewise dont feel free to move on from the fact that the "refugee crisis" which was an oh so important point to you, stopped mattering once it wasnt a republican who was responsible.

    I am fully happy to admit Ds also do bad things. Just not outright terrible like the Rs.

    Why would I waste my time chumming it up with you about how shitty Trump is, when we both already know that? Why would I not focus on your insane statements like this where you reduce more deportations than Trump 1, A GENOCIDE, and so much more to "bad things"? They are both absolutely terrible!

    No, an objective measure for how bad Trump has been. Feel free to ignore from now on as well.

    Oh neat, now that we picked thru that one we can ignore it as well? Fucking don't buddy, it was a shitty argument built on an unfalsifiable foundation, where all available evidence points towards: The Democrats also wantonly vurdering civilians. Yet to you it just becomes a partisan issue to be wielded like every other political point. You dont give a shit about these people.

    Regarding Kamala, your points are shallow.

    Oh okay, I declare all your arguments to be Infinity shallow! Therefore I win.

    Would she have started a war because she screamed at a protestor?

    No, she would have started a war because

    It’s been a pillar of US foreign policy since the 1979 revolution.

    Well, you wrote it for me. The rest, which you well understood, but now youre playing the obtuse angle (as we've discussed) was to illustrate how her rhetoric is that of a blood thirsty warmonger who does not give a shit about the genocide she is actively committing. Even when it is losing her the election.

    Unlike Trump, Kamala would very likely have listened to her advisors.

    Lmao, Trump started the war because of his advisors. And again, we have no way of knowing what would have happened, all we can do is look at her rhetoric and actions before, all of which indicate: She's a genocidal warmongering zionist. And seeing how Israel was the one pushing for the war with Iran, its pretty fucking likely she would have done it too.

    But I gotta be honest, I know you understood this before. Youre playing the obtuse angle, and it is one that I just cannot be bothered to engage anymore with. So this time, for real, im out. I hope you either [censured] or stop supporting genociders.

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