jet comments on if..

[–] jet@hackertalks.com [S] -2 points 2 months ago (9 children)

Do you have anything a little more definitive than “some parts of some plants can be toxic”?

Nope, your in the zero carb community - We acknowledge some people can eat some plants, but not all people can eat all plants. Obviously people exist who are allergic to some spices and herbs... So the same principle applies, carnivore's can use spices if they tolerate them, but not all people can tolerate them. Every plant you eat is a inflammatory burden on the body, for a healthy person its fine... but many people are not healthy.

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[–] ltxrtquq@lemmy.ml 6 points 2 months ago (8 children)

Here we provide an overview of how different culinary herbs and spices exert anti-inflammatory activities and the extent to which they activate PPAR α and PPAR γ, inhibit the activation of NF-κB, and enhance expression of anti-inflammatory cytokines. Spices can play essential roles as anti-inflammatory agents in our diet, acting as pan PPAR activators and improving insulin sensitivity, counteracting dyslipidaemia and weight gain. The effects of chronic inflammation caused by obesity are counteracted and, consequently, the progression of diseases associated with chronic inflammation slowed.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0378512211004385

What do you mean plants are an inflammatory burden on the body? What is that based on?

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[–] jet@hackertalks.com [S] 0 points 2 months ago* (7 children)

That is the third paper you have dropped in this conversation; Have you read it cover to cover and are willing to discuss it in detail both the methods, contexts, math, and outcomes? Or is it just a conversational flourish?

What do you mean plants are an inflammatory burden on the body? What is that based on?

All food actually causes a inflammatory response, eating is a burden. Plants by virtue of being immobile have mostly resorted to chemical warfare to keep animals from eating them. A good example is capsaicin - humans like it as a spice, but its a self defense compound. It DOES create a obvious response in humans.

If you want a good introduction to some of the issues Gundry has a nice lecture - https://discuss.online/post/41144731

I had posted my notes on a few papers on lectins directly, but the old lemmy hosts going down makes them hard to find at the moment. I could dig the paper out of my pile if your interested.

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[–] ltxrtquq@lemmy.ml 4 points 2 months ago (6 children)

I was hoping by providing sources that directly contradict the things you say, you might feel obligated to share some kind of source for why you think these things.

All food actually causes a inflammatory response, eating is a burden.

This directly contradicts several of the papers I quoted saying many herbs and spices have anti-inflammatory properties. Is there some kind of deeper truth you're pulling from? What do you know that tells you "eating is a burden," and where did you learn about it?

The lecture from Gundry relies heavily on "leaky gut syndrome," which

Leaky gut syndrome is a condition widely popularized in the lay literature, although it is not currently accepted as a formal medical diagnosis.

I'm not sure I'd really want to base my world view on. Especially since he seems to work for a "specialty lab testing" company and the NIH continues to say

The diagnosis of leaky gut syndrome is problematic. Although patients are frequently informed that the diagnosis can be readily made using results from blood work or stool studies, no validated test currently exists to make this diagnosis. Patients report a variety of myths about the etiology, diagnosis, and treatment of leaky gut syndrome, which can cause alarm and can frequently lead to expensive, unnecessary tests and unproven, sometimes dangerous treatments.

It seems like he might have a vested interest in selling people on the validity of leaky gut syndrome and selling you tests. Especially when he gives little sales pitch telling you at 32:02 that if you get 4 tests, they give you a food sensitivity panel for free.

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[–] jet@hackertalks.com [S] 0 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (5 children)

I was hoping by providing sources that directly contradict the things you say,

If you haven't read your own sources, and are not willing to discuss them in detail, you are not engaging in good faith. It becomes a asymmetric time waster for a good faith discussion. Someone reads your paper, responds to it, and you drop 5 more without engaging in the first paper in depth. I'm not saying you would do that, but it is the common pattern, which is why i have stopped reading people's papers unless they are willing to engage in good faith discussions. Also, each of your quotes from papers is the author's opinions rather then the data from the paper.

contradicts several of the papers I quoted

Quoted, but you have admitted by omission you have not read.

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[–] ltxrtquq@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 months ago (4 children)

each of your quotes from papers is the author’s opinions rather then the data from the paper.

Here we provide an overview of how different culinary herbs and spices exert anti-inflammatory activities and the extent to which they activate PPAR α and PPAR γ, inhibit the activation of NF-κB, and enhance expression of anti-inflammatory cytokines. Spices can play essential roles as anti-inflammatory agents in our diet, acting as pan PPAR activators and improving insulin sensitivity, counteracting dyslipidaemia and weight gain. The effects of chronic inflammation caused by obesity are counteracted and, consequently, the progression of diseases associated with chronic inflammation slowed.

Does this really just seem like an "opinion" to you? Just how technical do you want to get when we're still trying to establish the baseline of "herbs and spices are bad for you"?

Anti-inflammatory response

To control inflammation and the balance between an inflammatory and normal state, anti-inflammatory cytokines, such as IL-4, IL-10, IL-13, IFN-α, and transforming growth factor, are released by macrophages [8]. The transcription factor NF-κB regulates the expression of various genes encoding pro-inflammatory cytokines, adhesion molecules, chemokines, growth factors, and chemoattractants such as MCP-1, COX-2, and iNOS. Thus, through NF-κB the inflammatory response can be down-regulated

Is this really more readable and better for a conversation than the abstract? It also doesn't help that I don't have access to the full article and don't expect anyone else to pay for it either.

Quoted, but you have admitted by omission you have not read.

Great, so what body of research have you thoroughly read that lead you to believe all plants are toxic (or at least unhealthy) and you should cut them out of your diet as much as possible? That's what I've been asking for from the beginning, but so far all you've given me was a very general WHO article about how toxins exist in plants and an hour long recorded zoom lecture trying to sell you medical tests.

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[–] jet@hackertalks.com [S] 0 points 2 months ago (3 children)

Does this really just seem like an “opinion” to you? Just how technical do you want to get

I will read any paper you have read cover to cover and are willing to discuss in depth. Just quoting opinion isn't enough for a good faith discussion.

when we’re still trying to establish the baseline of “herbs and spices are bad for you”?

My exact opinion, which you can see upthread - Some people can tolerate some plants, but not all people can tolerate all plants. Herbs and spices play inside of most people's inflammation budget and are fine, but a unhealthy person may not be able to tolerate them.

Is this really more readable and better for a conversation than the abstract? It also doesn’t help that I don’t have access to the full article and don’t expect anyone else to pay for it either.

Did you read the paper in full, and are you willing to discuss it in detail? If not, quoting it doesn't change the level of asymmetric engagement your trying to tarpit the discussion with.

Great, so what body of research have you thoroughly read that lead you to believe all plants are toxic (or at least unhealthy) and you should cut them out of your diet as much as possible? That’s what I’ve been asking for from the beginning, but so far all you’ve given me was a very general WHO article about how toxins exist in plants and an hour long recorded zoom lecture trying to sell you medical tests.

https://discuss.online/post/44161218

https://discuss.online/post/25952420

https://discuss.online/post/25791954

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[–] ltxrtquq@lemmy.ml 1 point 2 months ago (2 children)

https://discuss.online/post/44161218

https://discuss.online/post/25952420

https://discuss.online/post/25791954

It becomes a asymmetric time waster for a good faith discussion. Someone reads your paper, responds to it, and you drop 5 more without engaging in the first paper in depth. I’m not saying you would do that, but it is the common pattern, which is why i have stopped reading people’s papers unless they are willing to engage in good faith discussions.

Alright, so where do you want to start? Point me to one, instead of your personal library and board game collection.

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[–] jet@hackertalks.com [S] 2 points 2 months ago* (1 child)

You asked what I based my current opinions on, so I gave you the literature, and then you imply i'm wasting your time by citing things I haven't read - that isn't very nice of you.

If your going to read one book - Ketogenic - The science of therapeutic carbohydrate restriction in health. https://doi.org/10.1016/C2019-0-03604-7 Full Book is available on the normal book sharing websites. It doesn't say anything about herbs and spices, but it is far and away the most important and impactful book i own.

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[–] PapaStevesy@lemmy.world 2 points 2 months ago

You asked what I based my current opinions on, so I gave you the literature, and then you imply i'm wasting your time by citing things I haven't read - that isn't very nice of you.

You must be a Republican politician with that level of gaslighting and projection, that's literally what you've been doing to them the entire time, when they clearly read and were willing to discuss everything posted by both of you. That isn't very nice of you.

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